| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
   |
Posted - 2015.07.03 16:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Part 1
Been a topic of interest for the better part of a year now and I feel there is still some room to discuss ways to add some variety between Assaults and Commandos. Largely the design flaw comes from their current roles: They are both geared for offensive purposes with different approaches. However, as we know, homogenization and overlap between roles can wind up with both of them wondering what their real role is. This makes feedback on either somewhat difficult as they are both intended to be powerful in the offense department.
Assaults and Commandos are also threatened by the potential for 'Slayer Logis' and 'Slayer Scouts', but this is because we've been trying to reduce the capability of those roles -becoming- slayers rather than hallmarking Assaults and Commandos -AS- slayers with proper Slayer bonuses.
A little backstory, by the way: The Commando came into the game as a bone thrown to the heavy community but wound up being arguably one of the most under-utilized classes/roles in the game due to that same aforementioned homogenization. As we know, the proposal to 'Legion-ify' the two roles (removing commandos and giving Assaults two light weapons) isn't an option, so we need to get creative on how these roles differ rather than trying to make them both about frontline combat. This proposal would, in theory, drastically change the two roles, focusing and narrowing them down in two very different ways. Assaults would become the true Frontline Offensive role, and Commandos would return to their Suppression role.
Assaults
We've made the mistake of focusing on Assault suits' versatility to do everything, generally speaking. This has caused some problems (complaints about mobility + EHP + damage capability, not to mention equipment capability, etc; basically they can do everything) and trying to balance them has been problematic. Arguably, they're slated as to be "too good at slaying" (which I find amusing because that is their entire job  ).
So, to start with, the bonuses are good or bad, depending on the person. Amarr and Minmatar Assault users say that the bonuses are worth keeping and enjoy them, while Gallente and Caldari Assault users are mixed. There have been a -lot- of proposals on how to make them effective, but nothing has really stuck.
I'd like to propose that we move away from thinking of Assaults as the versatile, general infantry, and think of them more as the frontline damage dealers. They need to be able to constantly push and harass the frontline. Of which they are much better suited for this role than Commandos due to their mobility. I think a good way to do that is with two universally applied bonuses:
1) A damage bonus to respective racial weaponry. (Thinking 10%)
-Gallente Assault: 2% bonus to Hybrid - Blaster weapon damage per level
-Caldari Assault: 2% bonus to Hybrid - Rail weapon damage per level
-Amarr Assault: 2% bonus to Laser weapon damage per level
-Minmatar Assault: 2% bonus to Projectile weapon damage per level
2) A respective bonus toward racial combat philosophy.
-Gallente Assault: Increased Armor Repair rate from Repairers/Reactives
-Caldari Assault: Increased Shield HP from Extenders
-Amarr Assault: Increased Armor HP from plates
-Minmatar Assault: Increased Shield Regen Rate from Rechargers/Energizers (or potentially mobility module buffs, but we know this to be problematic)
With these changes, Assault Dropsuits become incredibly efficient at dealing damage with their respective weapons and their combat philosophy is hallmarked by the suit they are wearing. The removal of weapon fitting bonuses reduces their versatility in favor of more consistent fittings. Dual-tanking is possible with the compliment toward their defensive combat philosophy, but less likely as they have to work with the increased CPU/PG costs of their weaponry. Further more, the bonuses are applied actively toward modules and not passively toward the suit itself - they only get bonuses toward the modules in question.
I'm sure a lot of Amarr and Minmatar Assaults are mixed on these bonuses, what with the removal of their already good bonuses. There is a reason for this, as will be explained in the Commandos section. Either way, these are bonuses that I think a lot of Assaults could nod their head to.
Some people ask us, "Where do you call home?"
And we say, "Home is where the bullets fly. Where the shells land."
|
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 16:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Part 2
Commandos
By now a lot of Commandos are freaking out over the damage bonus being given toward Assaults. Commandos were originally designed, and to a degree still are, as Suppression units. They're sluggish, high EHP nature makes them more resilient to incoming fire and their universal reload speed makes them excellent at putting the hurt on the enemy faster, but I think we can do better at making them suppressive units in a more unique way while reducing the homogenization with Assaults.
A reload speed bonus accomplishes one goal: Putting more rounds down-range, faster. There is literally no other purpose to reload speed besides this. The same goal can be accomplished by a Magazine Increase bonus. A substantial one. We're talking 20% increased magazine capacity per level.
"Whoooa, Aeon, 100% increased magazine capacity is insane! That is entirely OP!"
Not really, you see, all it is doing is taking the occasional two seconds of reload speed out of the equation. More rounds in the magazine doesn't constitute more ammunition, either, it just means that more of the maximum ammo is in the magazine and the weapon can be fired for longer. A Gallente Commando with an Assault Rifle would have the same amount of rounds as a Gallente Assault with an Assault Rifle. It also balances itself in a rudimentary way because the longer you hold the trigger the higher the recoil is. Eventually, unless you want to try your hand at duck hunt, you'll have to lay off the trigger and let the weapon settle.
There is some consideration toward specific weapons that become broken with this, however. Swarm Launchers and Mass Drivers, in particular. The Minmatar Commando's weaponry bonus would have to shift to Projectile Weaponry instead of Explosive Weaponry. But, considering how many complaints there are about Swarm Launchers from vehicle users, I can only imagine they'd unanimously support this change 
The only remaining weapon that becomes broken, IMO, is the Plasma Cannon - but considering that Gallente Commando would -have- to be at least level three to get the second round in the 'magazine', assuming rounding, and would not obtain any benefit from it therein afterward, I don't see this as a particularly game breaking thing. The Plasma Cannon by itself is difficult to use and opportunistic as is and there aren't many Myro Commandos running around with which to make it a problem for infantry.
To put it simply, the Commando's bonuses under this proposal would be as such:
-Gallente Commando: 20% bonus to Hybrid - Blaster weapon magazine capacity per level.
-Caldari Commando: 20% bonus to Hybrid - Rail weapon magazine capacity per level.
-Amarr Commando: 20% bonus to Laser weapon magazine capacity per level.
-Minmatar Commando: 20% bonus to Projectile weapon magazine capacity per level.
So that is one bonus down. What about the other? If reload speed is being replaced by magazine capacity and the damage bonus is going to assaults, what unique benefits could we give to Commandos that separates them from Assaults while also hallmarking on their role as suppression?
A good bonus toward the Amarr, I feel, that compliments their suppression is either a cool-down bonus or a heat build reduction. With more rounds in the magazine and the constant threat of heat build, either of these benefits would compliment the playstyle well. A Laser Rifle with reduced heat build and a larger magazine capacity would -ABSOLUTELY- be a force to be reckoned with and I think it would define the meaning of suppression. As soon as you see that laser beam, you'd be diving for cover.
Minmatar Commandos would be a little less about suppression a bit more about cover busting, but this isn't a justification to break them. As such, a good way to go about this, I feel, is to give them an increase in Splash Radius rather than outright explosive damage. This would mean they could force players out of cover more reliably, with better ease of use, and they would genuinely be a threat that needed to be dealt with. (The Assault Mass Driver might need to be balanced in accordance with this, but the Breach Mass Driver might actually get some use as a result)
Caldari commandos are pretty easy. With an increase in magazine capacity and a focus on ranged combat, the best bet for them would be a recoil reduction in ADS, specifically. Hipfire would be, without a doubt, broken.
Finally there is the Gallente Commando, which I genuinely don't have a clue as to what sort of unique bonus they could receive that would compliment the playstyle. Given that Gallente are geared for CQC and a magazine increase would be a big benefit toward that, I have no idea what could be offered in place to make them unique.
-Gallente Commando: ?????
-Caldari Commando: 5% reduction to Hybrid - Rail weapon ADS recoil per level.
-Amarr Commando: 5% reduction to Laser heat-build per level /OR/ 5% bonus to Laser cool-down per level.
-Minmatar Commando: 5% bonus to Explosive weapon splash damage per level.
Some people ask us, "Where do you call home?"
And we say, "Home is where the bullets fly. Where the shells land."
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 17:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 17:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience
Right right. Dunno what we could give them that would contribute to that a bit more.
The root question: What do we give a CQC suppression unit to make it unique and viable?
10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
|
Thokk Nightshade
Montana Militia
981
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 18:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
God D@mn it Aeon. You've really upset with me with post. The reason I'm mad is because, in essense, you are right. The ideas you put forth in this are clear, consise, and would in fact make a CLEAR distinction between Assaults and Commandos. I can't believe I am agreeing to this but it MAKES SENSE.
Now let me explain my first couple sentences. I run Calmando on a regular basis. I LOVE my damage per level bonus I get. Stack that with 3 complex damage mods, the Warbarge upgrades, and a Kal. rail rifle and I melt people. I never thought losing the damage bonus would be something I would be O.K. with. That is one of the reasons I love the Commando so much; that bonus and the double light weapons.
Here's the problem with my own logic using your bonus system. If I lose the damage bonus, I will still be able to melt people. It will just take a touch longer. If I have 84 rounds in my Kal-Rail Rifle vs. 42 and still have the triple complex damage mods, I'm still at, what a 15% - 18% damage bonus (don't remember stacking penalties)? So I'm taking a slight reduction in Damage per round but in turn I will be able to engage for longer times and just pump rounds into groups of enemies for an extended timeframe, weakening the group and knocking a couple off in the process. If they are not grouped and I can 1 v. 1, I can take out 2, 3, 4 enemies in a single magazine without reloading. I can engage multiple targets 1 after the other and while THEY are reloading, I am still pumping rounds out.
I'm trying to think of something for that 2nd Gallente bonus but I have never used them. With that, I'm going to leave it up to the experts.
For the assaults, when I do run them, I agree the damage bonus is more fitting to them (since giving damage bonus to BOTH takes away the flavor/versatility of each). They are the ones trying to get in and take the objectives as the primary front line attackers. They should have the highest possibility at DPS of anyone on the battlefield.
Giving each race a bonus fitting their playstyle makes them more specialized and allows for them to be a bit more survivable. You want to be hit and run, use Caldari. You want to tank it up, go Amarr. .
As for the Min Assault, I'm just going to be clear on the speed bonus. Not no, but HELL no. The last couple days have been a Godsend without OP Min Assaults running roughshod over the whole battlefield. :)
Great job Aeon. You've convinced at least me (I know my opinion doesn't mean much around here).
Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
|
Thokk Nightshade
Montana Militia
981
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 18:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience
Could we build something in to give them a bonus sprint speed? 50% bonus to sprint speed for 5-7 seconds at the cost of stamina?
This would allow them to get close fast so they can use their weapons to finish off the enemy, but they aren't going to be running across the battlefield like scouts are. Just a quick burst to get in close.
Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
|
Veg Hegirin
DUST University
Ivy League
27
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 23:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Assault bonuses are tied to the primary drawback of weapons, and have both grenades and equipment. You're stuck with the engagement profile of your weapon, but you function better when you're in your element. You can assault any location by getting to your optimal engagement positions, which you just win at. It befits the name.
Commandos get more burst damage and EHP, and can bring a weapon for every occasion. Not as useful in a slugfest, but should be ready to win any 1v1 off to the side, also befitting their name
You're proposing to just switch the two roles. I don't see why you need to bother. |
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 23:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Veg Hegirin wrote:Assault bonuses are tied to the primary drawback of weapons, and have both grenades and equipment. You're stuck with the engagement profile of your weapon, but you function better when you're in your element. You can assault any location by getting to your optimal engagement positions, which you just win at. It befits the name.
Commandos get more burst damage and EHP, and can bring a weapon for every occasion. Not as useful in a slugfest, but should be ready to win any 1v1 off to the side, also befitting their name
You're proposing to just switch the two roles. I don't see why you need to bother.
Did you read the entire thread or did you just stop where it said that Assaults would get a damage bonus?
10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
|
Mikel Arias
Challengers 506
136
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 23:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience
Right right. Dunno what we could give them that would contribute to that a bit more. The root question: What do we give a CQC suppression unit to make it unique and viable?
Damage I think. If you need to get close to deal damage, it should be worth the risk, so, the closer you are, higher the damage. Take for example the shotgun; far away? no need to worry, kill the guy; the guy with the shotgun is next to you? you should die, really. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 23:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience
Right right. Dunno what we could give them that would contribute to that a bit more. The root question: What do we give a CQC suppression unit to make it unique and viable?
more sprint speed |
|
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 00:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
OP is OP is OP
you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?
shotguns with double clip sizes?
the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?
youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.
two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.
if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
848
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 00:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Stuff and things
I like these changes in general. Three suggestions though...
1. Caldari Assault bonus that you give (+extender health) I dont like too much, it doesnt really help them apply pressure and it doesnt really fit with their racial combat philosophy of ranged combat. However, now that we have a shield regen threshold, perhaps their defensive bonus could apply to that, making the shield threshold larger. This would encourage and reward caldari assaults who maintain range and pick away at long distances, rewarding them by allowing their regen to continue through more of the return fire than any other suit.
2. Gallente Commando bonus: my idea (Ive suggested this for Gal Assault as well at other times, but would work for Gal Comm too) is to give Gallente Commando's a damage bonus the closer they are to the enemy with plasma weapons. e.g. at 5m or less you would get a (for example) 20% damage bonus, 10% at 30m, falls off to no bonus at all at around 40 meters, etc.
3. Amarr Commando bonus: Heat Buildup reduction is a really bad stat to play with for bonuses. Its pretty clear that the amarr assault bonus is absurdly powerful with the ascr and scr and laser rifles. It allows the damage buildup in the laser to get pretty crazy, allows the amarr assault to fire off a full clip and a half of the ascr without even considering the possibility of heat buildup, and allows them to pump out a ton more damage from the scr without having the same chance of overheat anyone else has. This both makes the amarr assault incredibly powerful, and makes these 3 weapons very difficult to balance, since if they are balanced in the hands of an amarr assault, they suck for everyone else, if its balanced for everyone else, its stupendously overpowered for the amarr assault. I would go with the cooldown speed increase for the Amarr Commando, if given a choice, for the above reasons. Recovering from overheat leaves the essential balance of the weapons intact and still gives you a meaningful bonus. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
848
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 00:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:OP is OP is OP
you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?
shotguns with double clip sizes?
the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?
youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.
two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.
if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC.
100% increased clipsize seems overpowered, but honestly given how **** commando dropsuits are I think it might be just what they need. I do think 100% increased clip ammo for plasma cannons/mass drivers/swarm launchers are a thing to worry about, and maybe should be avoided, but increased rifle clip ammo would be right up the commandos' alleys and I think would be a great way to make them fun and viable (particularly since this kind of buff will help them with their NO SIDEARM syndrome). |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
848
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 00:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Veg Hegirin wrote:Commandos get more burst damage and EHP, and can bring a weapon for every occasion. Not as useful in a slugfest, but should be ready to win any 1v1 off to the side, also befitting their name
This isnt how the current bonuses work in practice. Commandos generally have crap EHP which is comparable or worse than what assaults can achieve, since assaults have more modules, and the assaults end up with more fitting variation, being able to use utility modules like precision modules, dampeners, and kincats etc without having to worry about it too much. Meanwhile as far as "burst" damage, not sure thats the right term. Sustained damage is 10% higher for commandos, thats not really "burst", and in fact is completely contradicted by the current amarr assault v. amarr commando bonuses, where the commando gives +10% sustained damage, but the amarr assault gets a huge bonus to burst damage since they can avoid overheat much better, this also equates to a long term sustained damage boost to the amarr assault, but theirs is the only bonus that really gives meaningful burst damage. |
Miles O'Rourke
Ready to Play
21
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 00:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
As a GalManndo, I like the idea of the clip size bonus to plasma weapons, although I'm also terrified at the prospect of 4 shot Kubo's Plasma Cannons and Breach shotguns.
On the other end of things, I don't have any suggestions for the second bonus. RoF would be, obviously, OP as hell and a range bonus goes against the CQC style of the Gallente, so those two are out of the question.
I used to be a Squad Lead like you, but then I took a Thale's to the knee.
|
Veg Hegirin
DUST University
Ivy League
27
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 01:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Quote:Did you read the entire thread or did you just stop where it said that Assaults would get a damage bonus?
Full disclosure did skim a bit.
Vesta Opalus wrote: Commandos generally have crap EHP which is comparable or worse than what assaults can achieve, since assaults have more modules, and the assaults end up with more fitting variation
This is a great argument for more EHP or slots on commandos. You do need to take module penalties into account though. 4 plates means jack is not a jumping lad.
Vesta Opalus wrote:The amarr assault gets a huge bonus to burst damage since they can avoid overheat much better
You've got it backwards
Burst: Damage in a very short amount of time. Winner: Commandos (Flat damage bonus)
Sustained: Damage over a longer period of time Winner: Assaults (heat, clip size etc)
Think of the laser rifle. Compared to amarr assaults, Ammandos have a shorter "wind up" time, they effectively have already been holding down the button for a few moments whenever they begin to fire. More burst. The tradeoff is that they can't fire for as long, and they don't have the same damage output as an assault who took to the time to preheat. More damage over a longer period.
TL;DR Assault wins if they have the time, through positioning/cover/etc. Commando wins if they don't.
Also the reload speed on commandos is because you have twice as many weapons to reload. If you're not doing that, you're better off in an assault.
|
Ralden Caster
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
244
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 02:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Give the Assault Rifle the bullet slowdown effect that you proposed way back and let the Galmando get a bonus to its potency.
Just spitballing ideas.
Have you ever looked up at the stars and realize that somewhere, out there, there is always something ON FIRE?
|
Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
7
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 02:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
As long as the Scr gets a heat build up reduction to accommodate for the change I'm fine with this.
"The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."
|
DRT 99
RAT PATROL INC.
400
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 02:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
a well reasoned, thought out post? WHAT IS THIS!
In all seriousness, i like these ideas. the cal ass bonus we used to have in the past before it got changed, i remember that much.
some issues i see are obviously MD / SL clip size and the calmando bonus is alittle underwhelming.
other things to consider in addition to recoil are charge time and sway reduction - sway being obvious as the sniper is a supression weapon, but charge time because with the current charge up, the RR is pretty bad at supressing as people can get to cover, once the RR stops shooting they can leave cover and have almost half a second before shots start flying again. |
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 04:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:OP is OP is OP
you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?
shotguns with double clip sizes?
the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?
youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.
two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.
if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC.
Yeah, lemme tell you, a 140 round AR is game-breaking but the 1.9 second reload time in between two 70 round magazines isn't.
Why? Because he can hold down the trigger? You ever held down the trigger for the entire magazine? You know how much recoil and dispersion that thing gets? Dude would have to take 1.9 seconds to wait for his gun to settle in the first place. The key difference here is that he isn't -forced- into a reload and can keep firing whereas the other guy has to reload the weapon, which is the very definition of suppression.
You're going to have to think about ammo disparity when engaging a Commando. Do I have enough ammo? Can I kill him before he kills me? Can I break away from combat long enough that I can reload my weapon while he's still shooting? These are the questions players -need- to ask before engaging a Commando, not: "Is it a Minmatar Commando with a Swarm Launcher / Caldari Commando with a Sniper Rifle? No? Then there is no threat."
10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
|
|
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 07:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:OP is OP is OP
you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?
shotguns with double clip sizes?
the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?
youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.
two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.
if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC. Yeah, lemme tell you, a 140 round AR is game-breaking but the 1.9 second reload time in between two 70 round magazines isn't. Why? Because he can hold down the trigger? You ever held down the trigger for the entire magazine? You know how much recoil and dispersion that thing gets? Dude would have to take 1.9 seconds to wait for his gun to settle in the first place. The key difference here is that he isn't -forced- into a reload and can keep firing whereas the other guy has to reload the weapon, which is the very definition of suppression. You're going to have to think about ammo disparity when engaging a Commando. Do I have enough ammo? Can I kill him before he kills me? Can I break away from combat long enough that I can reload my weapon while he's still shooting? These are the questions players -need- to ask before engaging a Commando, not: "Is it a Minmatar Commando with a Swarm Launcher / Caldari Commando with a Sniper Rifle? No? Then there is no threat."
yes, there's utility in shooting your gun forever without needing to reload, but youre creating major problems that we dont know if they can be solved.
you cant simply give a blanket plasma weapon clips size increase because it affects alot of other weapons that were balanced on small clips sizes. breach shotgun, plasma cannons, tactical ARs all wre balanced to have small clip sizes and a bonus that applies to plasma weapons affects the whole category.
the other issue is that because of how severe recoil gets with weapons, no one would be able to make any use of a increased clip size unless theyre at in cqc range. RRs with double clip size are useless. a 1.9 sec reload time is fine. its more than TTK for some suits, so reloading would get you killed. 700+ dps ScR? he gets 1.9 seconds of free DPS to apply to you while youre reloading. so youre forced to seek cover.
speaking of ScR, what good is double the clip size there? youll overheat before its of any real use.
suppression isnt about spamming bullets. spamming bbs isnt suppression is it? no its not. suppression is when there is an overwhelming threat of getting instantly killed the second you leave cover, like when a laser rifle has been heated up and directed at you. Its raw damage and stopping power, not quantity. people dont run for cover when there's a sniper shooting at them because they he has a 12 round clip lol... they run because he'll kill them in one or two shots. tanks dont run for cover because... "omg the forge has such a big clip i cant believe he's still shooting!" they run because he'll kill them in a couple shot if their hardener runs out. I run from ScR because im caldari and itll **** me if im not in cover. those are all instances of being suppressed.
|
Jenni Welsh
Reincarnation Incorporated
10
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 07:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience
I personally really like my Gallente assaults when they had their increased reload speed... but I realize that the Caldari already have this... maybe an increase to fire rate (no one has that yet)??? :) |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 07:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
the biggest problem with suppression is that it requires you to shoot at NOTHING most of the time.
youre simply shooting at rocks or corners for the majority of your time. theres no reward in not killing anyone. no one wants to shoot their gun so other people can get kills lol.
|
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
850
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 09:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Veg Hegirin wrote:
You've got it backwards
Burst: Damage in a very short amount of time. Winner: Commandos (Flat damage bonus)
Sustained: Damage over a longer period of time Winner: Assaults (heat, clip size etc)
Again I dont think you understand what burst damage means if you think a flat 10% damage boost makes someone better at burst damage compared to the heat bonus on the amarr assault + scrambler rifle or laser rifle mechanics.
This is really common for people in this game, I frequently hear people misuse terms like alpha damage or burst damage for something that has consistent damage delivery with no real limiter aside from reload.
The scrambler rifle is an alpha damage/burst damage weapon, where the output is massively frontloaded and then mechanics kick in to prevent its sustained dps from being insanely high.
I dont really care to argue about this stuff though, especially since the application of these terms is pretty limited in this game vs. a game like City of Heroes or something, so carry on. |
Veg Hegirin
DUST University
Ivy League
27
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 09:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
An Ammando and Amarr Assault shoot each other with ScR at the same rate. Ammando overheats first, but his damage in that period is higher, 'burstier' if you will. Amarr assault continues shooting for a couple more seconds. He shoos for a bit longer, but does more damage over that longer period, his damage is more sustained.
This is not to be confused with weapon *types*. Certainly the ScR is a burst weapon, but i'm not talking about weapons, I'm talking about the different ways each suit uses weapons in general. |
Kierkegaard Soren
Eridani Light Horse Battalion
827
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 09:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Regarding galmandos, I would recommend the second bonus being a hefty regen rate, perhaps 2hp/s per level, so at rank five they count as having a complex rep for free. They need that survivability if we want them to be CQC suppression specialists.
Dedicated Commando.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 10:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
Veg Hegirin wrote:
You've got it backwards
Burst: Damage in a very short amount of time. Winner: Commandos (Flat damage bonus)
Sustained: Damage over a longer period of time Winner: Assaults (heat, clip size etc)
.
Burst damageis a term used in MMOS to describe limited duration, high-impact damage. An example of burst damage would be the forge gun, because it is not doing its cataclysmic damage at a steady constant. It hammers, then stops then hammers. It is a limited-duration application of high damage.
Now let's use the previous example of the ammando and the amssault.
The ammando overheats significantly faster.
The ammando has lower potential DPS.
A triple-damage-mod amarr assault has a 1%-ish DPS advantage over the ammando because the ammando has one slot for damage mods, capping st +17% damage. The amssault can stack 3, achieving 18% plus some decimel change.
This means the amarr assault has a higher burst damage capability because of the overheat. It also can sustain a single-magazine firing a lot longer.
The ammando has a reload bonus... but it's heat dissipation doesn't keep up. It can still be cooling after it's fully reloaded.
It's little variables like this that make or break a balance between two suits.
Unfortunately the commandos were given a universal bonus rather than being bonused for racial role. The lack of racial diversity in bonusing has done as much to damage efficacy of the suits as much as the bad base stats have done.
Each of the the commandos has a quirk that makes their assault counterpart a better choice in almost all situations.
Example: the caldari commando has ghe hands-down WORST equivalent shield stats in the game.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 15:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:OP is OP is OP
you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?
shotguns with double clip sizes?
the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?
youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.
two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.
if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC. Yeah, lemme tell you, a 140 round AR is game-breaking but the 1.9 second reload time in between two 70 round magazines isn't. Why? Because he can hold down the trigger? You ever held down the trigger for the entire magazine? You know how much recoil and dispersion that thing gets? Dude would have to take 1.9 seconds to wait for his gun to settle in the first place. The key difference here is that he isn't -forced- into a reload and can keep firing whereas the other guy has to reload the weapon, which is the very definition of suppression. You're going to have to think about ammo disparity when engaging a Commando. Do I have enough ammo? Can I kill him before he kills me? Can I break away from combat long enough that I can reload my weapon while he's still shooting? These are the questions players -need- to ask before engaging a Commando, not: "Is it a Minmatar Commando with a Swarm Launcher / Caldari Commando with a Sniper Rifle? No? Then there is no threat." yes, there's utility in shooting your gun forever without needing to reload, but youre creating major problems that we dont know if they can be solved. you cant simply give a blanket plasma weapon clips size increase because it affects alot of other weapons that were balanced on small clips sizes. breach shotgun, plasma cannons, tactical ARs all wre balanced to have small clip sizes and a bonus that applies to plasma weapons affects the whole category. the other issue is that because of how severe recoil gets with weapons, no one would be able to make any use of a increased clip size unless theyre at in cqc range. RRs with double clip size are useless. a 1.9 sec reload time is fine. its more than TTK for some suits, so reloading would get you killed. 700+ dps ScR? he gets 1.9 seconds of free DPS to apply to you while youre reloading. so youre forced to seek cover. speaking of ScR, what good is double the clip size there? youll overheat before its of any real use. suppression isnt about spamming bullets. spamming bbs isnt suppression is it? no its not. suppression is when there is an overwhelming threat of getting instantly killed the second you leave cover, like when a laser rifle has been heated up and directed at you. Its raw damage and stopping power, not quantity. people dont run for cover when there's a sniper shooting at them because they he has a 12 round clip lol... they run because he'll kill them in one or two shots. tanks dont run for cover because... "omg the forge has such a big clip i cant believe he's still shooting!" they run because he'll kill them in a couple shot if their hardener runs out. I run from ScR because im caldari and itll **** me if im not in cover. those are all instances of being suppressed.
The bonus has diminishing returns toward small clip size weaponry. A Breach goes from 2 rounds to 4 rounds... Okay, that is fine and dandy but on a Galmando you're probably going to have to fit biotics - sacrificing EHP - to make it viable at all. Plasma Cannon is a different story but I don't see a two shot plasma cannon as that big of a deal, honestly, because it isn't -that- big of a threat to infantry unless you're using myros and any vehicle user will tell you that the most problematic weapon is the Swarm Launcher. If anything, the Galmando with these changes would probably be a good justification for boosting Vehicles' viability in the eventuality that it -did- become a problem, because we're still trying to nerf swarm launchers as it is due to that.
Suppression is subjective to different contexts. You say "Spamming BBS isn't suppression is it?" but which would you say is more suppressive: An M16A4 Assault Rifle or an M249 SAW?
EDIT: Also, you're flipping back and forth on your argument here. Your first post, I'm trolling for proposing a 100% increase in magazine capacity because it is OP. In this post, somehow that isn't viable suppression? Which is it?
10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 16:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
EDIT: Also, you're flipping back and forth on your argument here. Your first post, I'm trolling for proposing a 100% increase in magazine capacity because it is OP. In this post, somehow that isn't viable suppression? Which is it?
Schizophrenia.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 16:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Part 2 Commandos By now a lot of Commandos are freaking out over the damage bonus being given toward Assaults. Commandos were originally designed, and to a degree still are, as Suppression units. They're sluggish, high EHP nature makes them more resilient to incoming fire and their universal reload speed makes them excellent at putting the hurt on the enemy faster, but I think we can do better at making them suppressive units in a more unique way while reducing the homogenization with Assaults. A reload speed bonus accomplishes one goal: Putting more rounds down-range, faster. There is literally no other purpose to reload speed besides this. The same goal can be accomplished by a Magazine Increase bonus. A substantial one. We're talking 20% increased magazine capacity per level. "Whoooa, Aeon, 100% increased magazine capacity is insane! That is entirely OP!" Not really, you see, all it is doing is taking the occasional two seconds of reload speed out of the equation. More rounds in the magazine doesn't constitute more ammunition, either, it just means that more of the maximum ammo is in the magazine and the weapon can be fired for longer. A Gallente Commando with an Assault Rifle would have the same amount of rounds as a Gallente Assault with an Assault Rifle. It also balances itself in a rudimentary way because the longer you hold the trigger the higher the recoil is. Eventually, unless you want to try your hand at duck hunt, you'll have to lay off the trigger and let the weapon settle. There is some consideration toward specific weapons that become broken with this, however. Swarm Launchers and Mass Drivers, in particular. The Minmatar Commando's weaponry bonus would have to shift to Projectile Weaponry instead of Explosive Weaponry. But, considering how many complaints there are about Swarm Launchers from vehicle users, I can only imagine they'd unanimously support this change The only remaining weapon that becomes broken, IMO, is the Plasma Cannon - but considering that Gallente Commando would -have- to be at least level three to get the second round in the 'magazine', assuming rounding, and would not obtain any benefit from it therein afterward, I don't see this as a particularly game breaking thing. The Plasma Cannon by itself is difficult to use and opportunistic as is and there aren't many Myro Commandos running around with which to make it a problem for infantry. To put it simply, the Commando's bonuses under this proposal would be as such: -Gallente Commando: 20% bonus to Hybrid - Blaster weapon magazine capacity per level. -Caldari Commando: 20% bonus to Hybrid - Rail weapon magazine capacity per level. -Amarr Commando: 20% bonus to Laser weapon magazine capacity per level. -Minmatar Commando: 20% bonus to Projectile weapon magazine capacity per level. So that is one bonus down. What about the other? If reload speed is being replaced by magazine capacity and the damage bonus is going to assaults, what unique benefits could we give to Commandos that separates them from Assaults while also hallmarking on their role as suppression? A good bonus toward the Amarr, I feel, that compliments their suppression is either a cool-down bonus or a heat build reduction. With more rounds in the magazine and the constant threat of heat build, either of these benefits would compliment the playstyle well. A Laser Rifle with reduced heat build and a larger magazine capacity would -ABSOLUTELY- be a force to be reckoned with and I think it would define the meaning of suppression. As soon as you see that laser beam, you'd be diving for cover. Minmatar Commandos would be a little less about suppression a bit more about cover busting, but this isn't a justification to break them. As such, a good way to go about this, I feel, is to give them an increase in Splash Radius rather than outright explosive damage. This would mean they could force players out of cover more reliably, with better ease of use, and they would genuinely be a threat that needed to be dealt with. (The Assault Mass Driver might need to be balanced in accordance with this, but the Breach Mass Driver might actually get some use as a result) Caldari commandos are pretty easy. With an increase in magazine capacity and a focus on ranged combat, the best bet for them would be a recoil reduction in ADS, specifically. Hipfire would be, without a doubt, broken. Finally there is the Gallente Commando, which I genuinely don't have a clue as to what sort of unique bonus they could receive that would compliment the playstyle. Given that Gallente are geared for CQC and a magazine increase would be a big benefit toward that, I have no idea what could be offered in place to make them unique. -Gallente Commando: ????? -Caldari Commando: 5% reduction to Hybrid - Rail weapon ADS recoil per level. -Amarr Commando: 5% reduction to Laser heat-build per level /OR/ 5% bonus to Laser cool-down per level. -Minmatar Commando: 5% bonus to Explosive weapon splash damage per level.
This is all some really good stuff here and I'm 100% behind it.
What I'm about to say is blasphemy, I know. When I mention it Rattati dies a little bit inside but even in EVE the Assault ships aren't the general purpose do all ships. They are the most used in solo pvp but that's it.
Assaults should not be the same way for this game.
With the Gallente Commando what about a range increase? Would make the Gallente Commando with a tactical the Go to suit for defense purposes.
Also, since I identify the commando the most with battlecruiser the idea of brute strength and destruction gets me hard.
Lucent Echelon Chat Channel is fixed
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |