DUST Search - [Lots of Reading] Re-Evaluation of Assaults and Commandos

Pokey Dravon wrote:

benandjerrys wrote:

...and everybody's favorite dream smasher make his triumphant return Lol

thankyou for reason here.

Not sure if compliment or criticism....

Krias Thracian wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Rattati has already state he is not interested in increasing the reload speed as it would make it more effective against infantry. Additionally a larger magazine would also have the same effect, and thus I don't see him going for it. As I've said Breakin and I have done a significant amount of work on the numbers behind AV (though I'll admit it was mostly Breakin' with me doing sanity checks) and have talked to some extent with Rattati about it as well.

So unless Rattati has had a change of heart recently, I just don't see it happening.

Perhaps, and tweaking would certainly be on the cards, but on the whole, I think the OP really had something, haggling over that specific bonus aside, that would actually differentiate the two types of suits. I think it's worth exploring the concepts anyway.

Oh don't get me wrong, as I said earlier I think the idea is worth entertaining. But there would need to be some neccessary tweaks before it would work properly because as is, it would make the PLC horrifically overpowered. That weapon in particular reacts to bonuses significantly differently due to its very extreme magazine/reload/damage ratio so you have to tread carefully when tweaking those values.

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Oh that's cool. An entire proposal completely destroyed, dismantled, and rendered moot not because of the dropsuits it entailed, but because of one weapon.

Not really, see above. All I'm saying is that it's irresponsible to push a change through if its going to cause a glaring issue with a particular fascet. So as was stated before, the PLC would need a rather significant change as not to make this bonus work. I will say I am reluctant to mess with the PLC currently, as it actually performs pretty damn well as is, so I'm a little worried about fixing something isn't broken, just to add a bonus to the suit.

On another note, something that may be worth discussing...would Laser weapons gain much advantage to a increased magazine since their primary limitation on sustained damage is more so tied to heat buildup and not so much magazine capacity?

10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.

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Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:14:00 - [61] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: benandjerrys wrote: ...and everybody's favorite dream smasher make his triumphant return thankyou for reason here. Not sure if compliment or criticism.... Krias Thracian wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Rattati has already state he is not interested in increasing the reload speed as it would make it more effective against infantry. Additionally a larger magazine would also have the same effect, and thus I don't see him going for it. As I've said Breakin and I have done a significant amount of work on the numbers behind AV (though I'll admit it was mostly Breakin' with me doing sanity checks) and have talked to some extent with Rattati about it as well. So unless Rattati has had a change of heart recently, I just don't see it happening. Perhaps, and tweaking would certainly be on the cards, but on the whole, I think the OP really had something, haggling over that specific bonus aside, that would actually differentiate the two types of suits. I think it's worth exploring the concepts anyway. Oh don't get me wrong, as I said earlier I think the idea is worth entertaining. But there would need to be some neccessary tweaks before it would work properly because as is, it would make the PLC horrifically overpowered. That weapon in particular reacts to bonuses significantly differently due to its very extreme magazine/reload/damage ratio so you have to tread carefully when tweaking those values. Aeon Amadi wrote: Oh that's cool. An entire proposal completely destroyed, dismantled, and rendered moot not because of the dropsuits it entailed, but because of one weapon. Not really, see above. All I'm saying is that it's irresponsible to push a change through if its going to cause a glaring issue with a particular fascet. So as was stated before, the PLC would need a rather significant change as not to make this bonus work. I will say I am reluctant to mess with the PLC currently, as it actually performs pretty damn well as is, so I'm a little worried about fixing something isn't broken, just to add a bonus to the suit. On another note, something that may be worth discussing...would Laser weapons gain much advantage to a increased magazine since their primary limitation on sustained damage is more so tied to heat buildup and not so much magazine capacity? To refresh you, the Amarr Commando proposal is to take the Amarr Assault's heat build reduction, which would work wonders on a weapon with a larger mag count. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:44:00 - [62] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: To refresh you, the Amarr Commando proposal is to take the Amarr Assault's heat build reduction, which would work wonders on a weapon with a larger mag count. Ah fair enough, missed that bit. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:47:00 - [63] - Quote I agree with you mostly, but if commandos are supposed to be suppression, shouldn't they also get more max ammo too? Remember, suppression fire isn't trying to kill someone, it's trying to keep them pinned for other suits (the assault suits) to flank them. So what's the point of a larger magazine if you're going to run dry in the same amount of time as an assault would? 20% bonus to racial light weapon magazine size and max ammo. In addition, I would think about giving the defense bonus to the commandos, since they have to be exposed in order to deliver that suppression fire. Can't suppress from behind a wall. In exchange, give assaults bonuses to movement, in order to make them better flankers since they can get into position quicker. Just some things to consider. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:13:00 - [64] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I agree with you mostly, but if commandos are supposed to be suppression, shouldn't they also get more max ammo too? Remember, suppression fire isn't trying to kill someone, it's trying to keep them pinned for other suits (the assault suits) to flank them. So what's the point of a larger magazine if you're going to run dry in the same amount of time as an assault would? 20% bonus to racial light weapon magazine size and max ammo. In addition, I would think about giving the defense bonus to the commandos, since they have to be exposed in order to deliver that suppression fire. Can't suppress from behind a wall. In exchange, give assaults bonuses to movement, in order to make them better flankers since they can get into position quicker. Just some things to consider. You also have to consider though....does a larger magazine really make a weapon a suppression weapon? I mean if I have an AR and the enemy has a Rail Rifle....even if I have double the magazine size, how effective am I going to be at suppressing someone who has more range than me? I just dont feel like an increased magazine will make an assault weapon into a suppression weapon, at least in all cases. I mean just personally, if I really wanted a suppression role, I'd want something like increase splash radius to Mass Drivers since the Mass Driver is by its nature, more focused on suppression. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
benandjerrys Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 248	Posted - 2015.07.06 00:11:00 - [65] - Quote @ pokey Compilment ONE UNIVERSE//ONE WAR Support Dust/EvE cross content We need live events discussion
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 51	Posted - 2015.07.06 10:07:00 - [66] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I agree with you mostly, but if commandos are supposed to be suppression, shouldn't they also get more max ammo too? Remember, suppression fire isn't trying to kill someone, it's trying to keep them pinned for other suits (the assault suits) to flank them. So what's the point of a larger magazine if you're going to run dry in the same amount of time as an assault would? 20% bonus to racial light weapon magazine size and max ammo. In addition, I would think about giving the defense bonus to the commandos, since they have to be exposed in order to deliver that suppression fire. Can't suppress from behind a wall. In exchange, give assaults bonuses to movement, in order to make them better flankers since they can get into position quicker. Just some things to consider. You also have to consider though....does a larger magazine really make a weapon a suppression weapon? I mean if I have an AR and the enemy has a Rail Rifle....even if I have double the magazine size, how effective am I going to be at suppressing someone who has more range than me? I just dont feel like an increased magazine will make an assault weapon into a suppression weapon, at least in all cases. I mean just personally, if I really wanted a suppression role, I'd want something like increase splash radius to Mass Drivers since the Mass Driver is by its nature, more focused on suppression. You see, I view a mass driver as pretty much the opposite of a suppression weapon. The splash damage and arc mean that you are using it to force people OUT of cover, not keep them in it. Personally I think splash weapons are far too prevalent in this game, but that's just my opinion and no doubt the avid users of such weaponry will massively disagree with me. If range is a concern, then could a bonus not be to halve the magazine bonus and give a 2-10% (I don't know what the actual figures for range are, so I'm not sure what would be most appropriate) bonus to range or recoil (though I'm hesitant on decreasing recoil with a bigger mag) so you can actually get your shots on target better.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.07.06 14:06:00 - [67] - Quote That's and interestiny way to look at so I see where you are coming from. I suppose my definition is slightly different in that I consider a suppression weapon to be something that prevents you from accessing certain areas, area denial if you will. May that be preventing the enemy from advancing out from behind cover or forcing them to take cover. I consider the Laser Rifle and arguably the Sniper Rifle to be suppressive weapons as well. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Jakkal Shoobah Eternal Beings 143	Posted - 2015.07.08 20:51:00 - [68] - Quote I like the OP. Even thou guy this is a radical suggestion I like it. I've always thought assaults should get a module bonus. This change would completely alter the way matches are played. On the bonuses to assaults. I could see the damage and defensive module bonuses working really well. I think it makes sense. Medium hp suits that are masters of their races weapons and modules. On the commando bonuses. Yes. Although reload speed is useful, having twice the ammo in clip is better. It makes send that high hp fat suits would have two offensive bonuses instead of one. I think that if the right bonuses are given, commandos could really be the Rambos of dust. Always shooting , always a problem, always deadly. As a galmando , I can tell you that it would be hard to find a good bonus for them without treading into extremely dangerous territory. To be honest, the current gal assault bonus would be godsend with your proposed suit clip bonus. While slow to anger and occasionally indecisive, they are also capable of harnessing enormous resolve when truly tested.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 20	Posted - 2015.07.08 21:31:00 - [69] - Quote As well thought out as it is. I'm not really going to back anything that takes me built in Heatsinks away. I like em too much. I kind of like the idea that the Amarr are a DoT race when it comes to damage dealing. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.08 21:36:00 - [70] - Quote A suppressive weapon is by definition "A weapon with more than sufficient firepower to turn your ass to chutney if you stick your neck out into the open for any extended period of time." Having more bullets than the competition is strictly optional. Grenade launchers (mass drivers) are pretty much the definition of suppressive weapons. Laser Rifles are suppression from hell itself and fits the role perfectly. the assault HMG is STARTING to push that direction. there's a few others, but those are the stand-outs. But for a weapon to be suppressive it needs to have the right combo of range and firepower. Mass drivers do it by alpha and AoE, laser rifles do it by range and scaling DPS. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.08 22:04:00 - [71] - Quote True Adamance wrote: As well thought out as it is. I'm not really going to back anything that takes me built in Heatsinks away. I like em too much. I kind of like the idea that the Amarr are a DoT race when it comes to damage dealing. It'd just be moving to the Amarr Commando where it'd be better off anyway due to the mag increase. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.08 22:07:00 - [72] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: A suppressive weapon is by definition "A weapon with more than sufficient firepower to turn your ass to chutney if you stick your neck out into the open for any extended period of time." Having more bullets than the competition is strictly optional. Grenade launchers (mass drivers) are pretty much the definition of suppressive weapons. Laser Rifles are suppression from hell itself and fits the role perfectly. the assault HMG is STARTING to push that direction. there's a few others, but those are the stand-outs. But for a weapon to be suppressive it needs to have the right combo of range and firepower. Mass drivers do it by alpha and AoE, laser rifles do it by range and scaling DPS. Suppression is a nebulous term. People think the Mass Driver is a suppression weapon but it's entire design is to force players -OUT- of cover, rather than -INTO- cover. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 20	Posted - 2015.07.08 22:20:00 - [73] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: True Adamance wrote: As well thought out as it is. I'm not really going to back anything that takes me built in Heatsinks away. I like em too much. I kind of like the idea that the Amarr are a DoT race when it comes to damage dealing. It'd just be moving to the Amarr Commando where it'd be better off anyway due to the mag increase. .......You still haven't quite hooked me. In theory it sounds great..... but would I really want to play an Amarr Commando like that> Arguably one of the cooler things about the Amarr Commando is that it AScR functions kind of like an LMG. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.08 22:52:00 - [74] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: True Adamance wrote: As well thought out as it is. I'm not really going to back anything that takes me built in Heatsinks away. I like em too much. I kind of like the idea that the Amarr are a DoT race when it comes to damage dealing. It'd just be moving to the Amarr Commando where it'd be better off anyway due to the mag increase. .......You still haven't quite hooked me. In theory it sounds great..... but would I really want to play an Amarr Commando like that> Arguably one of the cooler things about the Amarr Commando is that it AScR functions kind of like an LMG. O.o; well I mean you'd have an ASCR with +100% mag capacity and a 25% reduction to heat build. That would kinda make it a Light... Scrambler... Machine Gun? 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.09 02:26:00 - [75] - Quote Suppression as I learned it is forcing the enemy to keep their heads down so that riflemen can move in to flank or envelop them. To that end, we used the SAW (then the IAR, I hate that thing) both of which function like Aeon describes commandos. Lots of bullets (IAR blech) to keep the enemy's head down while our riflemen move ito position. Grenades are used to flush enemies out of entrenched positions, and to clear a room before entering. Mass drivers aren't supposed to keep you crouched behind cover. They are made to make you want to leave cover. This is area denial, but not suppression. Suppression is intended to keep you pinned behind cover. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 20	Posted - 2015.07.09 02:59:00 - [76] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: True Adamance wrote: As well thought out as it is. I'm not really going to back anything that takes me built in Heatsinks away. I like em too much. I kind of like the idea that the Amarr are a DoT race when it comes to damage dealing. It'd just be moving to the Amarr Commando where it'd be better off anyway due to the mag increase. .......You still haven't quite hooked me. In theory it sounds great..... but would I really want to play an Amarr Commando like that> Arguably one of the cooler things about the Amarr Commando is that it AScR functions kind of like an LMG. O.o; well I mean you'd have an ASCR with +100% mag capacity and a 25% reduction to heat build. That would kinda make it a Light... Scrambler... Machine Gun? True.....but it wouldn't really feel like one. Don't most suppressive fire weapons have such recoil that you need to burst fire/ stand them on a bipod. Again at this point it's not really and argument.....but I'd really rather not lose the Heat Build up on Assaults. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.


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