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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4993	Posted - 2015.02.19 23:11:00 - [1] - Quote Attempting to move the conversation here as not to further derail the MBT/SHAV thread. Concerns about Minmatar Commando providing too much of a bonus to swarms compared to other roles. I decided to actually do my own calcs to confirm everything firsthand. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_8dAX2RzWtlB0Xi0e_JA2WJ3ihrMJ4w_TnidSjjE_Kw/edit?usp=sharing Short version, in a comparison between a Minmatar Commando with 2 Damage mods and a Non Commando with 3 damage mods. Damage is assumed neutral (No Proficiency or damage profiles). Delta Methodology follows 100%[(Minmando/NonMando)-1].... or in other words "How much more damage does the Minmando do than a Nonmmando" Short version is Difference in Alpha Damage ~5% Difference in Sustained Damage ~22% I have not calculated the Gallmando with Plasma Cannon yet, but I suspect the results will be similar. More to come on that. Another point to mention is that the Commandos in general are fairly balanced in all other situations, probably even leaning to the underpowered side as they often struggle on several fronts. that being said, if the only issue with Minmatar commandos is how well it performs with a Swarm Launcher, then it's really more that the Swarm needs to change, and less so the Minmmando itself. Feel free to call me a moron and try to eat each other while we discuss. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 15681	Posted - 2015.02.19 23:18:00 - [2] - Quote Your DPS is misleading, as it takes longer than 1.05s to launch a volley. Though the thought of consuming a Pilot is, interesting to say the least. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7303	Posted - 2015.02.19 23:26:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: Your DPS is misleading, as it takes longer than 1.05s to launch a volley, aside from that I'll wait until you're finished before commenting on the rest of your assertion. Though the thought of consuming a Pilot is, interesting to say the least. the problem is the math can only go based on what we have in the stats. Now whether or not you have to wait for the server to confirm something that lets you lock, like a lag burp? can't account for that. AV
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4993	Posted - 2015.02.20 00:19:00 - [4] - Quote Atiim wrote: Your DPS is misleading, as it takes longer than 1.05s to launch a volley, aside from that I'll wait until you're finished before commenting on the rest of your assertion. Though the thought of consuming a Pilot is, interesting to say the least. Fair enough but the point isn't to compare absolute DPS, it's to compare the difference between an Assault and a Commando, and since I have the same listed 1.05 seconds for both, it really doesn't matter. It's simply a component in a sustained DPS calc. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 345	Posted - 2015.02.20 00:35:00 - [5] - Quote Atiim wrote: Your DPS is misleading, as it takes longer than 1.05s to launch a volley, aside from that I'll wait until you're finished before commenting on the rest of your assertion. Though the thought of consuming a Pilot is, interesting to say the least. Here is the problem - the initial swarm lock-on time means nothing. Most swarmers are smart enough not to stand directly in front of a tank turret to try and lock on.. They lock on beside, behind or above a tank, fire, then lock on again.... usually, depending on range, this is the point that the first volleys hit the tank, causing him to hit hardeners right before the second volley hits, by the time the second volley hits the third volley has already locked on and been fired. So unless you are a minmando bunny hopping in front of the turret firing swarms and miraculously get killed, you are garanteed 2 volleys to hit as pilots have 2 seconds to react to the first volley, and if they don't find cover the third hits around 4 seconds after the first impact. The perception to the pilot is 3 volleys hitting in 4 seconds as they have no idea when the first lock on is starting.. An assault suit with three damage mods is not very viable as you only have a sidearm vs infantry, although I have been having a lot of luck as a cloaked scout with swarms and damage mods. Play as a vehicle chaser far away from infantry. That also adds to the minmando problem, soon everyone will have the added 5% warbarges bonus, which affects both of their weapons, as does complex light damage mods--- enough EHP to hold their own against infantry and 2 garanteed swarm hits on every vehicle that gets within swarm range. Swarms also turn corners, go through rocks and hills and sometimes don't give a direction indicator when the pilot takes damage. Dropships have the benefit if afte- burning if the first volley does enough damage, second volley will still hit but with good flying you can out rep the last volley killing you if the swarmer locked on in time. With tanks- Minmando = Madrugar useless. Minmando = One shield hardener Gunlogi useless. That's one minmando, that also has a secondary damage modded light weapon and a fairly high EHP and strafe speed
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 880	Posted - 2015.02.20 00:55:00 - [6] - Quote and rattati aims to reduce vehicle hardeners to only one per vehicle fit...
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4993	Posted - 2015.02.20 01:05:00 - [7] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: gibberish Good job, you completely missed the point of the thread. This thread is not here to discuss "OMG SWARMS ARE OP AGAINST TANKS!" It's to discuss the relative differences between non-commandos using AV, and Commandos using AV. Not how they perform against vehicles because all of those values will be changing anyways so right now its irrelevant. So please remain on-topic and hold your grievances above how AV balances against HAVs, because we're not talking about that right now. Anyways. So crunching the numbers for the Gallente Commando....its comical in that a Caldari Commando can actually do more DPS...not much, but a little more. As for how the Gallmando compares to say an Assault, the Alpha is again....nearly identical. Where it really shines is in the sustained DPS, primarily due to its reload speed. As for the Minmatar Commando, it's really not that much different. The difference in alpha is really pretty close, around 5%, but the real gem is the sustained DPS...again because the reload shaves off quite a bit of lost time. The reason the Minmatar Commando can muster more alpha than the triple modded Nonmmando is because it can fit 2 damage mods, whereas the Gallente cannot. So in short, the Commandos are not capable of putting out much more DPS than a Nonmmando until the reload comes, at which point the DPS increases by a good margin. For a PLC this is after 1 shot, and a Swarm after 3, obviously. So that begs the question of....where do you want things to land? I don't think innately changing the Commando bonuses is what needs to happen....their bonuses have good use in non-AV situations and nerfing the bonuses are simply going to cause collateral nerfs in areas where it is not needed. That being said, it really comes down to How do you change the weapon so that the Commando bonus is not overbearing in its effectiveness. We've established that the differences in alpha are not too significant, so what it really comes down to is "How do we modify the Reload and Lock-On/Charge time of the Swarm/PLC so that the Reload bonus of the Commando is useful, but not overbearing." "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 345	Posted - 2015.02.20 01:14:00 - [8] - Quote Exactly, 2 Swarmers = 4 garanteed hits If using minmandos, which are viable vs infantry, rounding down to 1800 damage per volley sets the vehicle being hit with 7200 damage in 2 seconds ( start from first swarm impact ). 10000 EHP down to 2800 in 2 seconds. 15000 EHP down to 7800 in 2 seconds. Going to be rough with one hardener unless only one player specs into AV on the other team.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 7889	Posted - 2015.02.20 01:22:00 - [9] - Quote I am trying to understand what the real issue is. That Minmandos are better at AV? Is that really a problem if that turns out to be the case? They start off with much lower HP than other heavies. They have comperable HP to assaults, if not much lower yet have no grenades and few module slots to use, and have poor EWAR. Commandos in general are lacking a role, would it be a significant problem if they were much better at AV than other classes? Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2941	Posted - 2015.02.20 01:29:00 - [10] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: gibberish Of course you completely ignore his point, which is exactly what you do with people you don't agree with, most especially me. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 347	Posted - 2015.02.20 01:37:00 - [11] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: gibberish Good job, you completely missed the point of the thread. This thread is not here to discuss "OMG SWARMS ARE OP AGAINST TANKS!" It's to discuss the relative differences between non-commandos using AV, and Commandos using AV. Not how they perform against vehicles because all of those values will be changing anyways so right now its irrelevant. So please remain on-topic and hold your grievances above how AV balances against HAVs, because we're not talking about that right now. Anyways. So crunching the numbers for the Gallente Commando....its comical in that a Caldari Commando can actually do more DPS...not much, but a little more. As for how the Gallmando compares to say an Assault, the Alpha is again....nearly identical. Where it really shines is in the sustained DPS, primarily due to its reload speed. As for the Minmatar Commando, it's really not that much different. The difference in alpha is really pretty close, around 5%, but the real gem is the sustained DPS...again because the reload shaves off quite a bit of lost time. The reason the Minmatar Commando can muster more alpha than the triple modded Nonmmando is because it can fit 2 damage mods, whereas the Gallente cannot. So in short, the Commandos are not capable of putting out much more DPS than a Nonmmando until the reload comes, at which point the DPS increases by a good margin. For a PLC this is after 1 shot, and a Swarm after 3, obviously. So that begs the question of....where do you want things to land? I don't think innately changing the Commando bonuses is what needs to happen....their bonuses have good use in non-AV situations and nerfing the bonuses are simply going to cause collateral nerfs in areas where it is not needed. That being said, it really comes down to How do you change the weapon so that the Commando bonus is not overbearing in its effectiveness. We've established that the differences in alpha are not too significant, so what it really comes down to is "How do we modify the Reload and Lock-On/Charge time of the Swarm/PLC so that the Reload bonus of the Commando is useful, but not overbearing." Sorry you can't understand anything I wrote. Commandos are viable against infantry, triple modded assault's are not viable against infantry as they only have a sidearm and lower EHP. Following? Scouts can use stealth to avoid infantry and focus on AV. Following? Currently 2 Minmandos with swarms will pop every tank configuration under the new proposed hull numbers less than 4 seconds after the first swarms hit. Following? The minmando bonus is a problem as it only compares to an non-viable assault fit. Now add in warbarge bonus, and unless you are using dual plasma canons on a galmando, speccing one suit trumps all points put into vehicles. Following? Pokey, I know this isn't Eve, but if you start a thread about minmandos and swarms, people that actually play the game and use things that are affected by minmandos and swarms are going to publicize the problems.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2212	Posted - 2015.02.20 01:38:00 - [12] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I am trying to understand what the real issue is. That Minmandos are better at AV? Is that really a problem if that turns out to be the case? They start off with much lower HP than other heavies. They have comperable HP to assaults, if not much lower yet have no grenades and few module slots to use, and have poor EWAR. Commandos in general are lacking a role, would it be a significant problem if they were much better at AV than other classes? I think the problem isn't that 'commandos do av' its that 'specific commando has sustained dps well above higher skilled weapons that can miss with a weapon that functionally cannot miss'. I'm just spitballing ideas and I think it really comes down to we need to turn back the weapons ease of use. I'd propose this by making the swarm function more similarly to the PLC but with a few tweaks: make it a single projectile weapon with a damage per shot, magazine size and reload similar to plc, allow it to dumbfire vs infantry & installations, give it a flat travel path and finally cause its projectile to home like an AV grenade when it passes within say 25m of a vehicle. The swarm could now 'miss' at long ranges, but it still functions well at short range. Variants could be created like an assault/breach that don't home so they can be used vs infantry or tactical which does a little less damage but has a wider homing area that could be used vs dropships. This also allows for a little closer av balancing. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 347	Posted - 2015.02.20 01:55:00 - [13] - Quote Mina longstrike; Careful, you are confusing Pokey. The minmando bonus affects swarms, comparing only to a completely unviable fit. Calmandos sniping have the added rail benefit. ( sorry to confuse you more Pokey ) Galmandos are great against shield vehicles BUT THEY ARE NOT GARANTEED 2 HIT, THERE IS A CHANCE ONE OR BOTH SHOTS WILL MISS. ( confusing I know ) So Pokey do go on about the problem with the minmando bonus via math.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2212	Posted - 2015.02.20 02:03:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a problem. If you can't act like an adult ** off. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 347	Posted - 2015.02.20 02:08:00 - [15] - Quote He is doing a poor job at fostering productive conversation if his response to input is to simply label it jiberish. You reap what you sow, I read what he writes and actually play the game. He unrest and numbers but notso much tthe application of said numbers in game.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 347	Posted - 2015.02.20 02:14:00 - [16] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult **** off. Acting like an adult I see, Swarms on any commando are deadly, on the minmando it's a whole new level.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 206	Posted - 2015.02.20 02:15:00 - [17] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: gibberish Of course you completely ignore his point, which is exactly what you do with people you don't agree with, most especially me. The reason Pokey ignored his point, was because that was not the intended purpose of the thread. This isn't an examination of the platforms the swarm launchers can be deployed on The purpose of this thread is to discuss how much (If at all) the commandos alter the vehicle TTK, and how much they should (if at all) compared to a non-commando (Assuming spherical mercs in a vacuum) @Doc DDD, I understand and agree that the on-paper DPS and sustained DPS of swarm launchers alone stand out as an anomaly compared to the other AV weapon options available, and I'm reasonably sure that Pokey is aware of that. Please understand that in this thread Pokey wants to examine the Minmatar Commando (and all commando platforms in general) and how they theoretically affect the TTK. Please, by all means start a thread for the reasonably discussion of swarm launchers themselves, and improvements that could be made to them as a weapon system to fit more in balance (Note: that improvements to fit in balance may mean the weapon damage needs to be nerfed) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 348	Posted - 2015.02.20 02:28:00 - [18] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: gibberish Of course you completely ignore his point, which is exactly what you do with people you don't agree with, most especially me. The reason Pokey ignored his point, was because that was not the intended purpose of the thread. This isn't an examination of the platforms the swarm launchers can be deployed on The purpose of this thread is to discuss how much (If at all) the commandos alter the vehicle TTK, and how much they should (if at all) compared to a non-commando (Assuming spherical mercs in a vacuum) @Doc DDD, I understand and agree that the on-paper DPS and sustained DPS of swarm launchers alone stand out as an anomaly compared to the other AV weapon options available, and I'm reasonably sure that Pokey is aware of that. Please understand that in this thread Pokey wants to examine the Minmatar Commando (and all commando platforms in general) and how they theoretically affect the TTK. Please, by all means start a thread for the reasonably discussion of swarm launchers themselves, and improvements that could be made to them as a weapon system to fit more in balance (Note: that improvements to fit in balance may mean the weapon damage needs to be nerfed) Assuming spherical mercs in a vacuum, any suit with 3 high slots or more will do similar damage as a commando with the a damage bonus to the same weapon, so long as that commando suit has at least two high slots. This comes from running countless, logi, assault, scout, commando av fits as well as doing basic math. Now if that is the point of this thread, do we really need a thread to know that a 10% native damage bonus roughly equates to about 50% more than a complex damage mod in a high slot? No offense intended, but I think most people picked that point up already, and the actual problem is the weapon that the bonus applies to.... You want a new thread to tackle this? Or maybe glance at my jiberish. .
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 348	Posted - 2015.02.20 02:43:00 - [19] - Quote Now that we all understand that the Commando bonus adds roughly a complex light damage mod plus 50% with no stacking penalty, meaning the next damage mod is a full 7%, giving 17% with one damage mod.. that decreases the TTK of all vehicles by 17%. Now add another mod and you are looking decreasing TTK by somewhere around 22%. On a suit that also decreases the TTK of all infantry it shoots at with its secondary light weapon by 22%... This is the bonus that no other suit gets which is why if you are speccing swarms you are more than likely spec minmitar commando. And this is without factoring in reload speed bonus.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 206	Posted - 2015.02.20 02:47:00 - [20] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: gibberish Of course you completely ignore his point, which is exactly what you do with people you don't agree with, most especially me. The reason Pokey ignored his point, was because that was not the intended purpose of the thread. This isn't an examination of the platforms the swarm launchers can be deployed on The purpose of this thread is to discuss how much (If at all) the commandos alter the vehicle TTK, and how much they should (if at all) compared to a non-commando (Assuming spherical mercs in a vacuum) @Doc DDD, I understand and agree that the on-paper DPS and sustained DPS of swarm launchers alone stand out as an anomaly compared to the other AV weapon options available, and I'm reasonably sure that Pokey is aware of that. Please understand that in this thread Pokey wants to examine the Minmatar Commando (and all commando platforms in general) and how they theoretically affect the TTK. Please, by all means start a thread for the reasonably discussion of swarm launchers themselves, and improvements that could be made to them as a weapon system to fit more in balance (Note: that improvements to fit in balance may mean the weapon damage needs to be nerfed) Assuming spherical mercs in a vacuum, any suit with 3 high slots or more will do similar damage as a commando with the a damage bonus to the same weapon, so long as that commando suit has at least two high slots. This comes from running countless, logi, assault, scout, commando av fits as well as doing basic math. Now if that is the point of this thread, do we really need a thread to know that a 10% native damage bonus roughly equates to about 50% more than a complex damage mod in a high slot? No offense intended, but I think most people picked that point up already, and the actual problem is the weapon that the bonus applies to.... You want a new thread to tackle this? Or maybe glance at my jiberish. . well, it's also about weather or not it should, and if yes to what degree it should affect TTK as for the weapon itself, the on-paper stats are anomalous to say the least, however, it is another system I can best describe as temperamental...the on-paper stats are extremely powerful, but in-the-field it functions very differently and has a number of glitches associated with it's operation (Delay between lock-ons, only firing 2 missiles instead of the full four, missile "AI" not being consistent in how it flies to the target, etc.) And yes, sometimes rockets do go around corners, but it's not a 100% of the time thing, and yes sometimes they do phase through certain objects, but it doesn't happen all the time...(similar to the temperamentality associated with the shield boosters). As-is, in-game they feel too powerful against a PRO fit HAV, but that might change (Given the stats we've been given for the PRO HAVs), but no matter what happens here, they'll need some adjustment (OK...there's a .01% chance that everything will be exactly fine when new HAVs are released) Anyway, I don't feel swarms need to be adjusted significantly enough based on the stats of the new HAVs to worry about adjusting them until after we see how they actually perform against the new HAVs in the field (Or until Rattati asks for feedback about them ofc)...and while I do agree that their performance seems very high, they are noticeably better on the Minmando/Calmando...not to mention Commandos need to be looked at since overall they seem to be under performing in almost every task (Other than AV...and to some extent Sniping), so it's worth looking at them on a whole. I'm not saying you're opinions on the Swarm Launcher are entirely wrong, nor am I saying they're right...I'm saying that this isn't a thread to go on just listing how they perform currently...at the very least, make suggestions on how they could be changed to work in the overall game better (although, this should be mostly about how the commandos could be changed to make the game overall better, with respect to vehicle TTK, and relative to non-commando suits) Oh, and you raise a good point about the Commando carrying both an AV weapon and an AI weapon on the overall, it does make them inherently better for the job already Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2941	Posted - 2015.02.20 03:20:00 - [21] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: gibberish Good job, you completely missed the point of the thread. This thread is not here to discuss "OMG SWARMS ARE OP AGAINST TANKS!" It's to discuss the relative differences between non-commandos using AV, and Commandos using AV. Not how they perform against vehicles because all of those values will be changing anyways so right now its irrelevant. So please remain on-topic and hold your grievances above how AV balances against HAVs, because we're not talking about that right now. Anyways. So crunching the numbers for the Gallente Commando....its comical in that a Caldari Commando can actually do more DPS...not much, but a little more. As for how the Gallmando compares to say an Assault, the Alpha is again....nearly identical. Where it really shines is in the sustained DPS, primarily due to its reload speed. As for the Minmatar Commando, it's really not that much different. The difference in alpha is really pretty close, around 5%, but the real gem is the sustained DPS...again because the reload shaves off quite a bit of lost time. The reason the Minmatar Commando can muster more alpha than the triple modded Nonmmando is because it can fit 2 damage mods, whereas the Gallente cannot. So in short, the Commandos are not capable of putting out much more DPS than a Nonmmando until the reload comes, at which point the DPS increases by a good margin. For a PLC this is after 1 shot, and a Swarm after 3, obviously. So that begs the question of....where do you want things to land? I don't think innately changing the Commando bonuses is what needs to happen....their bonuses have good use in non-AV situations and nerfing the bonuses are simply going to cause collateral nerfs in areas where it is not needed. That being said, it really comes down to How do you change the weapon so that the Commando bonus is not overbearing in its effectiveness. We've established that the differences in alpha are not too significant, so what it really comes down to is "How do we modify the Reload and Lock-On/Charge time of the Swarm/PLC so that the Reload bonus of the Commando is useful, but not overbearing." Sorry you can't understand anything I wrote. Commandos are viable against infantry, triple modded assault's are not viable against infantry as they only have a sidearm and lower EHP. Following? Scouts can use stealth to avoid infantry and focus on AV. Following? Currently 2 Minmandos with swarms will pop every tank configuration under the new proposed hull numbers less than 4 seconds after the first swarms hit. Following? The minmando bonus is a problem as it only compares to an non-viable assault fit. Now add in warbarge bonus, and unless you are using dual plasma canons on a galmando, speccing one suit trumps all points put into vehicles. Following? Pokey, I know this isn't Eve, but if you start a thread about minmandos and swarms, people that actually play the game and use things that are affected by minmandos and swarms are going to publicize the problems. I have Minmando, just because. Vehicles melt. It's pathetically easy to destroy anything that moves. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2941	Posted - 2015.02.20 03:22:00 - [22] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult **** off. The argument is pilots vs forum/spreadsheet warriors. That's experience vs people that make charts. Experience > chartmaking Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2212	Posted - 2015.02.20 03:29:00 - [23] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult ** off. Acting like an adult I see, Swarms on any commando are deadly, on the minmando it's a whole new level. Stating quite clearly that no one wants to listen to belligerent and demeaning bullshit from someone acting like a whiny idiot because they couldn't read the thread and understand why their initial point was dismissed is surprisingly an adult thing to do. It's called establishing boundaries and setting expectations of behaviour. You missed the point, that is why you were dismissed. It is not acceptable to demean and belittle someone based on your failing. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2213	Posted - 2015.02.20 03:41:00 - [24] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult ** off. The argument is pilots vs forum/spreadsheet warriors. That's experience vs people that make charts. Experience > chartmaking How have you not been banned yet you pedantic . I'm honestly surprised with how you've carried on in every thread ever. Especially with rattati warning you to stop being a shitlord. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2941	Posted - 2015.02.20 04:00:00 - [25] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult ** off. The argument is pilots vs forum/spreadsheet warriors. That's experience vs people that make charts. Experience > chartmaking How have you not been banned yet you pedantic **. I'm honestly surprised with how you've carried on in every thread ever. Especially with rattati warning you to stop being a shitlord. Funny how by pointing out bad ideas, it's being toxic to the community and you want my voice silenced because of it. Me and Doc use vehicles. I never see you, Pokey or Breakin in game. I play domination every day, so there's a damn good chance I'd see a bunch of people from the forums in game. But.............................................. I rarely do. Seems everybody has these incredible ideas they want implemented over all others, without actually being able to compare anything. Numbers on a chart is not the same thing as actually watching your HP melt away by AV. As I've been saying, experience will trump spreadsheets every time. Do all the fancy equations you want, they may or may not translate to actual gameplay. Nobody has explained how AV being a deterrent would be a bad thing. Nobody has explained to me why a tank being its own best counter is a bad thing. Nobody has explained to me how it's a good thing that a weapon which does all the aiming for the user has such incredible damage. Nobody has explained why it's a good thing that the top AV grenade does ~1800 damage against unhardened armor. Nobody validates AV doing such incredible damage. And I also don't use profanity on here. Might want to watch what you type. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2941	Posted - 2015.02.20 04:03:00 - [26] - Quote The rage all of you feel for pilots is enough for me to suggest you all go see a therapist about it. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2213	Posted - 2015.02.20 04:05:00 - [27] - Quote FYI I have 4 accounts spkr, I only tank on Mina, I destroy you relatively regularly on other characters because you play like you post, headstrong moronic and belligerent. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 132	Posted - 2015.02.20 04:11:00 - [28] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult ** off. The argument is pilots vs forum/spreadsheet warriors. That's experience vs people that make charts. Experience > chartmaking How have you not been banned yet you pedantic **. I'm honestly surprised with how you've carried on in every thread ever. Especially with rattati warning you to stop being a shitlord. Funny how by pointing out bad ideas, it's being toxic to the community and you want my voice silenced because of it. Me and Doc use vehicles. I never see you, Pokey or Breakin in game. I play domination every day, so there's a damn good chance I'd see a bunch of people from the forums in game. But.............................................. I rarely do. Seems everybody has these incredible ideas they want implemented over all others, without actually being able to compare anything. Numbers on a chart is not the same thing as actually watching your HP melt away by AV. As I've been saying, experience will trump spreadsheets every time. Do all the fancy equations you want, they may or may not translate to actual gameplay. Nobody has explained how AV being a deterrent would be a bad thing. Nobody has explained to me why a tank being its own best counter is a bad thing. Nobody has explained to me how it's a good thing that a weapon which does all the aiming for the user has such incredible damage. Nobody has explained why it's a good thing that the top AV grenade does ~1800 damage against unhardened armor. Nobody validates AV doing such incredible damage. And I also don't use profanity on here. Might want to watch what you type. You know Spkr4theDead, both in local, and on the forums, I have never heard you say ANYTHING constructive. You never post ideas, or explain your problems with anything are, you just say "I'm the chief authority on this, and EVERYONE else is wrong!" IF you posted numbers, or ideas, then nobody would be getting mad at you. IF you are half the pilot you claim to be, you could be a valuable asset to the discussion. Instead, you complain and moan like an infant, mewling and puking in the nurses arms. Try being useful for ONCE in your life, or at least just shut up. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4994	Posted - 2015.02.20 04:32:00 - [29] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: stuff Here's the deal, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you. I wasn't saying your point was invalid, and I certainly understand what you're saying. However when I start a thread saying "Hey, let's talk about green apples versus red apples" and you immediately go straight to "Apples are gross compared to oranges!" It's a little frustrating, because I'm not here to talk about oranges. I'm not saying oranges shouldn't be talked about, but it's a little thing called staying on topic and that's not the topic of the thread. If I wanted to make a thread about the balance of swarms vs vehicles, I would, but i didn't. I'm here to speak about the relative impact of the Commando bonuses and how they affect the performance of AV weapons. And the fact of the matter is that I'm actually fully maxed out in both Minmatar and Gallente Commando, and nearly maxed out in both of their respective AV weapons, so I do know a thing or two about how they work, as I run them more often than any other suit. So I would appreciate drop the "Oh you're just a numbers guy" bull, it's getting old. Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult ** off. The argument is pilots vs forum/spreadsheet warriors. That's experience vs people that make charts. Experience > chartmaking Actually with you, it's typically an argument between those who can do basic math, and those who can't. My offer still stands, if you want me to teach you how to add and multiply I have very reasonable rates for tutoring. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4994	Posted - 2015.02.20 04:45:00 - [30] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult ** off. Acting like an adult I see, Swarms on any commando are deadly, on the minmando it's a whole new level. And I labled your points as gibberish, because they're in the wrong thread. So instead of complaining about getting killed by swarms, how about you offer up a solution to the problem that doesn't negatively affect the gameplay of the Minmatar Commando when it is in its Non-AV role. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7305	Posted - 2015.02.20 05:33:00 - [31] - Quote HAHAHAHAHAHAHA You don't see me in domination because I don't play domination. Oh my god you are ridiculous spkr. And Doc, yer being a d*ck. AV
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 7891	Posted - 2015.02.20 05:48:00 - [32] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I am trying to understand what the real issue is. That Minmandos are better at AV? Is that really a problem if that turns out to be the case? They start off with much lower HP than other heavies. They have comperable HP to assaults, if not much lower yet have no grenades and few module slots to use, and have poor EWAR. Commandos in general are lacking a role, would it be a significant problem if they were much better at AV than other classes? I think the problem isn't that 'commandos do av' its that 'specific commando has sustained dps well above higher skilled weapons that can miss with a weapon that functionally cannot miss'. I'm just spitballing ideas and I think it really comes down to we need to turn back the weapons ease of use. I'd propose this by making the swarm function more similarly to the PLC but with a few tweaks: make it a single projectile weapon with a damage per shot, magazine size and reload similar to plc, allow it to dumbfire vs infantry & installations, give it a flat travel path and finally cause its projectile to home like an AV grenade when it passes within say 25m of a vehicle. The swarm could now 'miss' at long ranges, but it still functions well at short range. Variants could be created like an assault/breach that don't home so they can be used vs infantry or tactical which does a little less damage but has a wider homing area that could be used vs dropships. This also allows for a little closer av balancing. Edit: ****ing civil discussion please I guess I get where you are going with it, but there are other problems as well. I agree that it is rather easy at times to take down something like an ADS with Swarms, however, ADS are not the only vehicle. I vividly remember one occasion where I had my Minmando out with Pro Swarms while a solo player sat in his LAV gunner seat and let me hit him. It took a full clip of volleys in order to do it, and had the guy actually been trying I would not have been able to. Then there are the HAVs. They also pretty much have to not be trying and allow me to kill them, or get too confident in thinking they can kill me first. Swarms are next to nothing in AV effectiveness with HAVs, particularly with any sort of hardeners. While adjusting swarms may make them a little more balanced with regards to ADS, it will very much hurt them against everything else. And don't forget that while manning swarms you are very much at the mercy of any infantry, and if using anything other than a Commando have no real recourse. There is a lot going on here, and I don't think we can discuss this as if this were in a vacuum. With major Vehicle changes around the corner we are just getting ahead of ourselves. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4994	Posted - 2015.02.20 06:09:00 - [33] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I guess I get where you are going with it, but there are other problems as well. I agree that it is rather easy at times to take down something like an ADS with Swarms, however, ADS are not the only vehicle. I vividly remember one occasion where I had my Minmando out with Pro Swarms while a solo player sat in his LAV gunner seat and let me hit him. It took a full clip of volleys in order to do it, and had the guy actually been trying I would not have been able to. Then there are the HAVs. They also pretty much have to not be trying and allow me to kill them, or get too confident in thinking they can kill me first. Swarms are next to nothing in AV effectiveness with HAVs, particularly with any sort of hardeners. While adjusting swarms may make them a little more balanced with regards to ADS, it will very much hurt them against everything else. And don't forget that while manning swarms you are very much at the mercy of any infantry, and if using anything other than a Commando have no real recourse. There is a lot going on here, and I don't think we can discuss this as if this were in a vacuum. With major Vehicle changes around the corner we are just getting ahead of ourselves. The way I see it is.... no one really complains about the Commando + Plasma Cannon combo, even though the numbers clearly show that it adds a substantial amount of sustained DPS. From my personal experience the primary reason people don't have an issue with it, is because the PLC is often challenging to use. Conversely, I think a huge reason why people have an issue with the Minmatar Commando + Swarms, is because Swarms are more or less noob-proof. It's pretty hard to screw up using them. So even though the Minmatar Commando offers a very similar advantage to the Gallente Commando, the primary difference in sentiment seems to be more about how reliable the weapon is and its ease of use. That being said, in my opinion the most obvious answer is to make the Swarms more difficult to use, and add more element of skill to properly hitting targets with them. I think if we move further away from the 'Fire and Forget" model, you can afford swarms to be powerful, as it actually takes some effort and ability to land hits with them. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17184	Posted - 2015.02.20 11:09:00 - [34] - Quote Any vehicle thread Spkr enters suddenly loses all value. Not because what he says is wrong....but because of how he says it....and that is what makes his opinion a joke to read. If you'd just post in a less jaded manner when you have a point.... and not talk down to people all the freaking time people might actually give you the time of day. We get you are some hot **** tanker who absolutely believes the game revolves around PC.... coolio bro, more power too ya. Just reign in the arrogance man it doesn't do you justice. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7306	Posted - 2015.02.20 11:13:00 - [35] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Any vehicle thread Spkr enters suddenly loses all value. Not because what he says is wrong....but because of how he says it....and that is what makes his opinion a joke to read. If he could debate civilly I might give a sh*t. But never happens. AV
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens 1138	Posted - 2015.02.20 11:13:00 - [36] - Quote Why not just remove swarms from the things that Minnie suits get +2% damage per level for? They can still get the reload bonus because all commando suits get that for all light weapons. Job done, let's have a beer. Dust/Eve transfers
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17184	Posted - 2015.02.20 11:16:00 - [37] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Any vehicle thread Spkr enters suddenly loses all value. Not because what he says is wrong....but because of how he says it....and that is what makes his opinion a joke to read. If he could debate civilly I might give a sht. But never happens. Regardless and ignoring that whole debate and returning to the topic at hand..... "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."*
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7306	Posted - 2015.02.20 11:18:00 - [38] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Why not just remove swarms from the things that Minnie suits get +2% damage per level for? They can still get the reload bonus because all commando suits get that for all light weapons. Job done, let's have a beer. Reload bonus is actually where the commandos make good. Everyone is so focused on the explosive bonus that they fail to realize that even if you remove ALL of the profile bonuses to 'mandos they would still do more sustained in AV because of reload. Even the amarr with swarms would have an advantage. But there's only a 4.5%-ish difference between a max mod minmando and a triple mod assault. The problem in this case is not the suit. It's the weapon. AV
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1532	Posted - 2015.02.20 13:33:00 - [39] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Now that we all understand that the Commando bonus adds roughly a complex light damage mod plus 50% with no stacking penalty, meaning the next damage mod is a full 7%, giving 17% with one damage mod.. that decreases the TTK of all vehicles by 17%. Now add another mod and you are looking decreasing TTK by somewhere around 22%. On a suit that also decreases the TTK of all infantry it shoots at with its secondary light weapon by 22%... This is the bonus that no other suit gets which is why if you are speccing swarms you are more than likely spec minmitar commando. And this is without factoring in reload speed bonus. The problem here is that you do NOT decrease a vehicles TTK by an equivalent increase in damage percentage. If you increase damage by 10%, for example, then if it took 4 shots to kill a tank it still takws 4 shots to kill a tank. There is no reduction in TTK. If your complaint is that two maxed out proto commandos can kill a tank, first you have your time off a little, second, a commando has a much shorter TTK against ANY SINGLE turret than that tank has against TWO commandos. How many players should be required to kill one? Because, that's why.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7309	Posted - 2015.02.20 15:07:00 - [40] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Now that we all understand that the Commando bonus adds roughly a complex light damage mod plus 50% with no stacking penalty, meaning the next damage mod is a full 7%, giving 17% with one damage mod.. that decreases the TTK of all vehicles by 17%. Now add another mod and you are looking decreasing TTK by somewhere around 22%. On a suit that also decreases the TTK of all infantry it shoots at with its secondary light weapon by 22%... This is the bonus that no other suit gets which is why if you are speccing swarms you are more than likely spec minmitar commando. And this is without factoring in reload speed bonus. The problem here is that you do NOT decrease a vehicles TTK by an equivalent increase in damage percentage. If you increase damage by 10%, for example, then if it took 4 shots to kill a tank it still takws 4 shots to kill a tank. There is no reduction in TTK. If your complaint is that two maxed out proto commandos can kill a tank, first you have your time off a little, second, a commando has a much shorter TTK against ANY SINGLE turret than that tank has against TWO commandos. How many players should be required to kill one? Commando 2 mods gives just over 13% before. Adding the commando bonus for 23% total overall. 3 light damage mods is just over 18%. For a total difference of... 4.5%. Go figure. The reload bonus gives a minmando's sustained DPS a jump. But that's Including reloads overall. caldari commando can get 18% with damage mods and have the same reload bonus. So again only 4.5% lower alpha than a minmando.now the swarms themselves vs. Armor? The damage is hilarious. AV

Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 959	Posted - 2015.02.20 15:14:00 - [41] - Quote So if I got this right your saying that you don't want to have a suite that can do AV better then others? Minmando is the go to swarm suite BECAUSE you have a light weapon secondary for defense and better damage out put. Without my minmando vehicles just drive away before I finish them and it seems his is what your advocating. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7310	Posted - 2015.02.20 15:16:00 - [42] - Quote Not Pokey's intent with the OP. But it rapidly devolved because "it kills me. It needs to be nerfed." AV
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 354	Posted - 2015.02.20 16:37:00 - [43] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I guess I get where you are going with it, but there are other problems as well. I agree that it is rather easy at times to take down something like an ADS with Swarms, however, ADS are not the only vehicle. I vividly remember one occasion where I had my Minmando out with Pro Swarms while a solo player sat in his LAV gunner seat and let me hit him. It took a full clip of volleys in order to do it, and had the guy actually been trying I would not have been able to. Then there are the HAVs. They also pretty much have to not be trying and allow me to kill them, or get too confident in thinking they can kill me first. Swarms are next to nothing in AV effectiveness with HAVs, particularly with any sort of hardeners. While adjusting swarms may make them a little more balanced with regards to ADS, it will very much hurt them against everything else. And don't forget that while manning swarms you are very much at the mercy of any infantry, and if using anything other than a Commando have no real recourse. There is a lot going on here, and I don't think we can discuss this as if this were in a vacuum. With major Vehicle changes around the corner we are just getting ahead of ourselves. The way I see it is.... no one really complains about the Commando + Plasma Cannon combo, even though the numbers clearly show that it adds a substantial amount of sustained DPS. From my personal experience the primary reason people don't have an issue with it, is because the PLC is often challenging to use. Conversely, I think a huge reason why people have an issue with the Minmatar Commando + Swarms, is because Swarms are more or less noob-proof. It's pretty hard to screw up using them. So even though the Minmatar Commando offers a very similar advantage to the Gallente Commando, the primary difference in sentiment seems to be more about how reliable the weapon is and its ease of use. That being said, in my opinion the most obvious answer is to make the Swarms more difficult to use, and add more element of skill to properly hitting targets with them. I think if we move further away from the 'Fire and Forget" model, you can afford swarms to be powerful, as it actually takes some effort and ability to land hits with them. SURPRISE! It's the weapon the bonus applies to that is the issue.. are you sure you are posting this in the right thread? Or should it be labeled jiberish? The swarm launcher is the issue.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7312	Posted - 2015.02.20 16:40:00 - [44] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: SURPRISE! It's the weapon the bonus applies to that is the issue.. are you sure you are posting this in the right thread? Or should it be labeled jiberish? The swarm launcher is the issue. your statement is true. But the Minmando has no part in this problem. Swarms are buggered without help. AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2958	Posted - 2015.02.20 16:47:00 - [45] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: FYI I have 4 accounts spkr, I only tank on Mina, I destroy you relatively regularly on other characters because you play like you post, headstrong moronic and belligerent. And as I have explained before it is seldom about what you say, but how you say it. Why do think true adamance is loved while you're loathed. Never seen you in a tank. You don't message me, so can't validate your claim. Keep being mad. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2958	Posted - 2015.02.20 16:48:00 - [46] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult ** off. The argument is pilots vs forum/spreadsheet warriors. That's experience vs people that make charts. Experience > chartmaking How have you not been banned yet you pedantic **. I'm honestly surprised with how you've carried on in every thread ever. Especially with rattati warning you to stop being a shitlord. Funny how by pointing out bad ideas, it's being toxic to the community and you want my voice silenced because of it. Me and Doc use vehicles. I never see you, Pokey or Breakin in game. I play domination every day, so there's a damn good chance I'd see a bunch of people from the forums in game. But.............................................. I rarely do. Seems everybody has these incredible ideas they want implemented over all others, without actually being able to compare anything. Numbers on a chart is not the same thing as actually watching your HP melt away by AV. As I've been saying, experience will trump spreadsheets every time. Do all the fancy equations you want, they may or may not translate to actual gameplay. Nobody has explained how AV being a deterrent would be a bad thing. Nobody has explained to me why a tank being its own best counter is a bad thing. Nobody has explained to me how it's a good thing that a weapon which does all the aiming for the user has such incredible damage. Nobody has explained why it's a good thing that the top AV grenade does ~1800 damage against unhardened armor. Nobody validates AV doing such incredible damage. And I also don't use profanity on here. Might want to watch what you type. You know Spkr4theDead, both in local, and on the forums, I have never heard you say ANYTHING constructive. You never post ideas, or explain your problems with anything are, you just say "I'm the chief authority on this, and EVERYONE else is wrong!" IF you posted numbers, or ideas, then nobody would be getting mad at you. IF you are half the pilot you claim to be, you could be a valuable asset to the discussion. Instead, you complain and moan like an infant, mewling and puking in the nurses arms. Try being useful for ONCE in your life, or at least just shut up. So you're not allowing me to point out bad ideas, and explain why they're bad? Who are you, my father? Bugger off Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2958	Posted - 2015.02.20 16:51:00 - [47] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: stuff Here's the deal, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you. I wasn't saying your point was invalid, and I certainly understand what you're saying. However when I start a thread saying "Hey, let's talk about green apples versus red apples" and you immediately go straight to "Apples are gross compared to oranges!" It's a little frustrating, because I'm not here to talk about oranges. I'm not saying oranges shouldn't be talked about, but it's a little thing called staying on topic and that's not the topic of the thread. If I wanted to make a thread about the balance of swarms vs vehicles, I would, but i didn't. I'm here to speak about the relative impact of the Commando bonuses and how they affect the performance of AV weapons. And the fact of the matter is that I'm actually fully maxed out in both Minmatar and Gallente Commando, and nearly maxed out in both of their respective AV weapons, so I do know a thing or two about how they work, as I run them more often than any other suit. So I would appreciate drop the "Oh you're just a numbers guy" bull, it's getting old. Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey is incredibly reasonable, I don't really appreciate you trying to belittle him when he's trying to foster healthy discussion on something perceived by a reasonably large portion of the community to be a contentious issue. If you can't act like an adult **** off. The argument is pilots vs forum/spreadsheet warriors. That's experience vs people that make charts. Experience > chartmaking Actually with you, it's typically an argument between those who can do basic math, and those who can't. My offer still stands, if you want me to teach you how to add and multiply I have very reasonable rates for tutoring. There's no math needed when you clearly don't know what you're talking about regarding vehicles. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2958	Posted - 2015.02.20 16:53:00 - [48] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA You don't see me in domination because I don't play domination. Oh my god you are ridiculous spkr. And Doc, yer being a d*ck. So what do you play? I'm guessing ambush. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2958	Posted - 2015.02.20 16:58:00 - [49] - Quote Yet again 5 of you ganging up on one person. I guess it takes that many of you to try to shut me down. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1540	Posted - 2015.02.20 17:03:00 - [50] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: SPERGSPERGSPERGSPERGSPERG edited for readability. Can't tell if my Internet is that bad, or DUST is just getting more borked. : /

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5001	Posted - 2015.02.20 17:43:00 - [51] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doc DDD wrote: SURPRISE! It's the weapon the bonus applies to that is the issue.. are you sure you are posting this in the right thread? Or should it be labeled jiberish? The swarm launcher is the issue. your statement is true. But the Minmando has no part in this problem. Swarms are buggered without help. Yep. Amarr Commando with Scrambler Rifle. Non-Issue. Amarr Commando with Laser Rifle. Non-Issue. Caldari Commando with Rail Rifle. Non-Issue. Caldari Commando with Sniper Rifle. Non-Issue. Gallente Commando with Plasma Rifle. Non-issue. Gallente Commando with Shotgun. Non-issue. Gallente Commando with Plasma Cannon. Non-issue. Minmatar Commando with Combat Rifle. Non-Issue. Minmatar Commando with Mass Driver. Non-Issue. Minmatar Command with Swarm Launch. Problematic. The issue is not Commando bonus in general, which people seem so keen to point a finger at. It's how it affects the Swarm Launcher, and more specifically how the Swarm performs in general. You really can't be upset with the Commando's bonus because it is clearly designed to fill the role of "High, sustained DPS" which is actually pretty ideal for fighting vehicles. The fact that it can run a primary as a backup makes it even more well suited to fulfill this task. This in itself is fine, because the Commando tends to fall short of the Assault when it comes to fighting infantry, due to a number of factors. The fact of the matter is that the Commando is going to tend to do more damage than other suits, that's simply the nature of the role, and trying to come up with heavy handed "Oh well it just doesn't get a bonus to this particular weapon" is bad design. So if the Minmatar Commando is overperforming, a mixture of things needs to happen (and for the sake of staying on topic, I'll avoid diving into the numbers) -Alter the values on the swarm such that the Minmatar Commando bonus has less 'weight', for example lowering reload time and increasing lock time will make the reload speed bonus contribute less to the overall DPS of the weapon. -Make swarms harder to use, and the application of damage less consistent. One option I've seen as of late is to increase the turning radius of the swarms. For those of you out there that didn't pass Jr. High Geometry, this means that missiles will have a harder time going around corners because the rate at which they can turn is lower. This means that in cases where the vehicle is far away and moving quickly, you will need to lead the target slightly so the vehicle moves into the arc of the missiles. In cases where the vehicle is close, you would need to shoot them nearly directly at the vehicle or the vehicle could move out of the missile's arc. They would still be tracking, but far less aggressive. -Balance the damage of the swarms with the understanding that the Minmatar Commando can and will do more damage than other suits while using it, but also with the understanding that the weapon needs to be viable (albeit suboptimal) in the hands of a non-commando. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 7900	Posted - 2015.02.20 17:53:00 - [52] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I guess I get where you are going with it, but there are other problems as well. I agree that it is rather easy at times to take down something like an ADS with Swarms, however, ADS are not the only vehicle. I vividly remember one occasion where I had my Minmando out with Pro Swarms while a solo player sat in his LAV gunner seat and let me hit him. It took a full clip of volleys in order to do it, and had the guy actually been trying I would not have been able to. Then there are the HAVs. They also pretty much have to not be trying and allow me to kill them, or get too confident in thinking they can kill me first. Swarms are next to nothing in AV effectiveness with HAVs, particularly with any sort of hardeners. While adjusting swarms may make them a little more balanced with regards to ADS, it will very much hurt them against everything else. And don't forget that while manning swarms you are very much at the mercy of any infantry, and if using anything other than a Commando have no real recourse. There is a lot going on here, and I don't think we can discuss this as if this were in a vacuum. With major Vehicle changes around the corner we are just getting ahead of ourselves. The way I see it is.... no one really complains about the Commando + Plasma Cannon combo, even though the numbers clearly show that it adds a substantial amount of sustained DPS. From my personal experience the primary reason people don't have an issue with it, is because the PLC is often challenging to use. Conversely, I think a huge reason why people have an issue with the Minmatar Commando + Swarms, is because Swarms are more or less noob-proof. It's pretty hard to screw up using them. So even though the Minmatar Commando offers a very similar advantage to the Gallente Commando, the primary difference in sentiment seems to be more about how reliable the weapon is and its ease of use. That being said, in my opinion the most obvious answer is to make the Swarms more difficult to use, and add more element of skill to properly hitting targets with them. I think if we move further away from the 'Fire and Forget" model, you can afford swarms to be powerful, as it actually takes some effort and ability to land hits with them. What if you needed to retain the swarm lock? Like say if the lock was a laser guided mechanism and if you removed the weapons aim from the vehicle your targets lost track? In one sense I get where you are going with it, but I personally find swarms to be buggy. I will often aim my SL after a volley, and the game won't register that I am aiming directly at the vehicle, so it can take twice the time to get off a second volley. This is one reason why its so hard to do enough damage to tanks to scare them away because it takes longer to be effective. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 7900	Posted - 2015.02.20 17:57:00 - [53] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Yet again 5 of you ganging up on one person. I guess it takes that many of you to try to shut me down. It takes one person to shut you down, yourself. You are your own worst enemy. It says a lot that a dev literally called your bad ideas and poor communication skills out. You are so devoid of any honest balancing attempts and base your ideas on such ludicrous self serving notions that no one will ever take you seriously. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5001	Posted - 2015.02.20 17:58:00 - [54] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: What if you needed to retain the swarm lock? Like say if the lock was a laser guided mechanism and if you removed the weapons aim from the vehicle your targets lost track? In one sense I get where you are going with it, but I personally find swarms to be buggy. I will often aim my SL after a volley, and the game won't register that I am aiming directly at the vehicle, so it can take twice the time to get off a second volley. This is one reason why its so hard to do enough damage to tanks to scare them away because it takes longer to be effective. That's another option, though would require more programming than simply tweaking some of the object attributes. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1275	Posted - 2015.02.20 18:20:00 - [55] - Quote Atiim wrote: Your DPS is misleading, as it takes longer than 1.05s to launch a volley, aside from that I'll wait until you're finished before commenting on the rest of your assertion. Though the thought of consuming a Pilot is, interesting to say the least. Nerf swarms, too OP. I need some Attim tears. And pokey, you moron. There iz contribute. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5003	Posted - 2015.02.20 18:21:00 - [56] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: And pokey, you moron. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1275	Posted - 2015.02.20 18:22:00 - [57] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: And pokey, you moron. You told me to in the OP! Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5003	Posted - 2015.02.20 18:23:00 - [58] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: And pokey, you moron. You told me to in the OP! But senpai... "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1275	Posted - 2015.02.20 18:24:00 - [59] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Yet again 5 of you ganging up on one person. I guess it takes that many of you to try to shut me down. Naw, you are too stubborn to admit when you is wrong is all. Intelligence is OP isn't it. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1275	Posted - 2015.02.20 18:26:00 - [60] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: And pokey, you moron. You told me to in the OP! But senpai... Had to look that up lol. Just trolling, ignore the fake insults. Tanks - Balancing Turrets

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9644	Posted - 2015.02.20 23:22:00 - [61] - Quote shoots plasma cannon in thread threw is locked before I can land a second shot Damn, they always go away after the first shot. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2978	Posted - 2015.02.21 18:48:00 - [62] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: third grade reading level. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2978	Posted - 2015.02.21 18:49:00 - [63] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: shoots plasma cannon in thread threw is locked before I can land a second shot Damn, they always go away after the first shot. Only with help. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1553	Posted - 2015.02.21 19:09:00 - [64] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Soldner VonKuechle wrote: third grade reading level. Aww how'ed did yew noes? In favor of removing vehicles only so Spkr quits everything.
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game RUST415 294	Posted - 2015.02.22 00:22:00 - [65] - Quote Minmando is made to use use swarm, such as amarr are maint to use laser weapons and caldari to use rail weapons. Stop debating about the obvious efficiency of a suit using its weapon, it's absolutely normal if does better than all others do with the same weapon. It's meant for it. Btw, minmando has good swarms yeah, but they dont have AV nade. Now add to the dps of a swarm the damage of a lai dai nade, and HO! EVERY OTHER SUITS ARE OP! Buff Minmando! Seriously. Rise? That's what they used to call me. Sequal Rise. That was my name. Now I come Back to you, at the turn of the tide.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 209	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:53:00 - [66] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Minmando is made to use use swarm, such as amarr are maint to use laser weapons and caldari to use rail weapons. Stop debating about the obvious efficiency of a suit using its weapon, it's absolutely normal if does better than all others do with the same weapon. It's meant for it. Btw, minmando has good swarms yeah, but they dont have AV nade. Now add to the dps of a swarm the damage of a lai dai nade, and HO! EVERY OTHER SUITS ARE OP! Buff Minmando! Seriously. I'd disagree that the Minmando is made to use swarms, so much as it's made to use the Combat Rifle and Mass Driver, it only got the use of swarms (a Caldari Weapon) by way of the Swarm Launcher's Damage typing. But that is neither here nor there now...this thread is more about looking into exactly how much utility the Minmando gets to swarm launchers specifically relative to other potential platforms, and to what degree Commando Suits in general should be getting AV utility. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 512	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:04:00 - [67] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Why not just remove swarms from the things that Minnie suits get +2% damage per level for? They can still get the reload bonus because all commando suits get that for all light weapons. Job done, let's have a beer. As Pokey said, the minmatar commando, with the AV boosts completely set aside, are actually underwhelming. It's not that the minmatar commando gets a bonus to AV, it's how the particular form of AV works. He's comparing it to the plasma cannon. People don't care about the Gallente Commando wiedling a plasma cannon. The reason you can come to is probably because using the plasma cannon is difficult and limited in range. I will, however, point out that comparing the caldari commando to the gallente commando for using the plasma cannon is silly. The gallente commando tanks with its low slots while the caldari tanks with its high slots. The caldari Commando does NOT want to be in the thick of the fight with a plasma cannon and no shield modules. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
LudiKure ninda Dead Man's Game RUST415 202	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:13:00 - [68] - Quote even more op then old Duvolle/Cal.Logi ( -í° -£-û -í°) `SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED`
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5068	Posted - 2015.02.27 21:38:00 - [69] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Why not just remove swarms from the things that Minnie suits get +2% damage per level for? They can still get the reload bonus because all commando suits get that for all light weapons. Job done, let's have a beer. As Pokey said, the minmatar commando, with the AV boosts completely set aside, are actually underwhelming. It's not that the minmatar commando gets a bonus to AV, it's how the particular form of AV works. He's comparing it to the plasma cannon. People don't care about the Gallente Commando wiedling a plasma cannon. The reason you can come to is probably because using the plasma cannon is difficult and limited in range. I will, however, point out that comparing the caldari commando to the gallente commando for using the plasma cannon is silly. The gallente commando tanks with its low slots while the caldari tanks with its high slots. The caldari Commando does NOT want to be in the thick of the fight with a plasma cannon and no shield modules. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Well the point I was making is that if you use damage mods on a Calmmando you can actually do more damage with a PLC...even if it is a very small difference. I wouldn't suggest using a Calmmando that way though, the PLC works far better on a Gallente Commando, as it should, namely because its playstyle suits the Gallmando's tanking style quite well. I mean I kinda see it this way. Commando and Asssault fill very similar roles. The Assault's bonuses work well with many anti-infantry weapons within that race, but don't affect the AV weapons much (Fitting bonus being the only real benefit). The Commando's bonus work very well with AV weapons because it pushes their sustained DPS way up, but the reload bonus doesnt really affect anti-infantry weapons all that well, (though the damage bonus obviously does). In general people feel the Assaults are in a decent place, and in general the Commandos are in a decent place (though I would argue they might need some slight tweaks in a couple areas to make them slightly better, but regardless). Both roles are effectively designed as "Attacker" roles, so why not just move under the assumption that Assault is primary Anti-Infantry with a secondary role as Anti-Vehicle, and the Commando is primary Anti-vehicle with a secondary role as Anti-Infantry. Assault's bonuses lend itself to more Anti-Infantry weapons, but it can use AV with reduced fitting cost as well as AV/Flux grenades for Anti-vehicles. Commando's bonuses lends itself more to Anti-Vehicle weapons, but can use anti-infantry weapons with increased damage (but lacks any grenades). I personally feel that in general, this fragmentation of the "Attacker" role actually feels about right. So Assaults, Commandos, and the roles they both fill feel about right....it's just the damn swarms that are problematic, and I think THAT'S what really needs to be addressed. Oh and give us Light Laser and Rail AV weapons so the Caldari and Amarr Commandos don't get boned on the whole "Primary Anti-vehicle" role. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net


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