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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
7889
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Posted - 2015.02.20 01:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am trying to understand what the real issue is.
That Minmandos are better at AV?
Is that really a problem if that turns out to be the case?
They start off with much lower HP than other heavies. They have comperable HP to assaults, if not much lower yet have no grenades and few module slots to use, and have poor EWAR.
Commandos in general are lacking a role, would it be a significant problem if they were much better at AV than other classes?
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
7891
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Posted - 2015.02.20 05:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:One Eyed King wrote:I am trying to understand what the real issue is.
That Minmandos are better at AV?
Is that really a problem if that turns out to be the case?
They start off with much lower HP than other heavies. They have comperable HP to assaults, if not much lower yet have no grenades and few module slots to use, and have poor EWAR.
Commandos in general are lacking a role, would it be a significant problem if they were much better at AV than other classes? I think the problem isn't that 'commandos do av' its that 'specific commando has sustained dps well above higher skilled weapons that can miss with a weapon that functionally cannot miss'. I'm just spitballing ideas and I think it really comes down to we need to turn back the weapons ease of use. I'd propose this by making the swarm function more similarly to the PLC but with a few tweaks: make it a single projectile weapon with a damage per shot, magazine size and reload similar to plc, allow it to dumbfire vs infantry & installations, give it a flat travel path and finally cause its projectile to home like an AV grenade when it passes within say 25m of a vehicle. The swarm could now 'miss' at long ranges, but it still functions well at short range. Variants could be created like an assault/breach that don't home so they can be used vs infantry or tactical which does a little less damage but has a wider homing area that could be used vs dropships. This also allows for a little closer av balancing. Edit: ****ing civil discussion please
I guess I get where you are going with it, but there are other problems as well.
I agree that it is rather easy at times to take down something like an ADS with Swarms, however, ADS are not the only vehicle.
I vividly remember one occasion where I had my Minmando out with Pro Swarms while a solo player sat in his LAV gunner seat and let me hit him. It took a full clip of volleys in order to do it, and had the guy actually been trying I would not have been able to.
Then there are the HAVs. They also pretty much have to not be trying and allow me to kill them, or get too confident in thinking they can kill me first. Swarms are next to nothing in AV effectiveness with HAVs, particularly with any sort of hardeners.
While adjusting swarms may make them a little more balanced with regards to ADS, it will very much hurt them against everything else.
And don't forget that while manning swarms you are very much at the mercy of any infantry, and if using anything other than a Commando have no real recourse.
There is a lot going on here, and I don't think we can discuss this as if this were in a vacuum. With major Vehicle changes around the corner we are just getting ahead of ourselves.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
7900
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Posted - 2015.02.20 17:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:One Eyed King wrote:
I guess I get where you are going with it, but there are other problems as well.
I agree that it is rather easy at times to take down something like an ADS with Swarms, however, ADS are not the only vehicle.
I vividly remember one occasion where I had my Minmando out with Pro Swarms while a solo player sat in his LAV gunner seat and let me hit him. It took a full clip of volleys in order to do it, and had the guy actually been trying I would not have been able to.
Then there are the HAVs. They also pretty much have to not be trying and allow me to kill them, or get too confident in thinking they can kill me first. Swarms are next to nothing in AV effectiveness with HAVs, particularly with any sort of hardeners.
While adjusting swarms may make them a little more balanced with regards to ADS, it will very much hurt them against everything else.
And don't forget that while manning swarms you are very much at the mercy of any infantry, and if using anything other than a Commando have no real recourse.
There is a lot going on here, and I don't think we can discuss this as if this were in a vacuum. With major Vehicle changes around the corner we are just getting ahead of ourselves.
The way I see it is.... no one really complains about the Commando + Plasma Cannon combo, even though the numbers clearly show that it adds a substantial amount of sustained DPS. From my personal experience the primary reason people don't have an issue with it, is because the PLC is often challenging to use. Conversely, I think a huge reason why people have an issue with the Minmatar Commando + Swarms, is because Swarms are more or less noob-proof. It's pretty hard to screw up using them. So even though the Minmatar Commando offers a very similar advantage to the Gallente Commando, the primary difference in sentiment seems to be more about how reliable the weapon is and its ease of use. That being said, in my opinion the most obvious answer is to make the Swarms more difficult to use, and add more element of skill to properly hitting targets with them. I think if we move further away from the 'Fire and Forget" model, you can afford swarms to be powerful, as it actually takes some effort and ability to land hits with them.
What if you needed to retain the swarm lock? Like say if the lock was a laser guided mechanism and if you removed the weapons aim from the vehicle your targets lost track?
In one sense I get where you are going with it, but I personally find swarms to be buggy. I will often aim my SL after a volley, and the game won't register that I am aiming directly at the vehicle, so it can take twice the time to get off a second volley. This is one reason why its so hard to do enough damage to tanks to scare them away because it takes longer to be effective.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
7900
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Posted - 2015.02.20 17:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Yet again 5 of you ganging up on one person. I guess it takes that many of you to try to shut me down.
It takes one person to shut you down, yourself.
You are your own worst enemy.
It says a lot that a dev literally called your bad ideas and poor communication skills out.
You are so devoid of any honest balancing attempts and base your ideas on such ludicrous self serving notions that no one will ever take you seriously.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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