Splah damage for particle accelerator and particle cannon? Not a huge one but just enough to 2-shot ak0 sentinels without a doible hit ( useless comment)

It's 2 meters at 234HP, you will have an hard time 2 shot a sentinel, but that is fair, splash must be for defense, not for offense.

Alright I looked at your initial there.

My first thought is that, unless you intend for EHP capacity to be based off the current Gunnlogi these turrets for AV will cause nosebleedingly short fights.

2000 DPS is mind-numbingly short duration. Currently the only turret that breaks 1000 DPS by any significant margin is the missile turret.

For basic purposes, until you have the hulls locked down, that you make turret DPS step up rather than have one sub-1000 DPS cannon then two above 2000.

Right now, without finalized hull average EHP I can only base these numbers off what we have now.

My assesment In the aforementioned vacuum is that I think missiles need their rate of fire dropped and their velocity stepped up. There really should be no need for a fragmented version with a low splash damage hit with a moderate radius to represent collateral damage from a large shaped charge.

In today's climate I'd recommend high alpha for rails around 1750 alpha and an overall base DPS of 700-750, a bit ahead of handheld AV.

I would recommend setying missiles to a base 800-850 which would require a more sustained fire pattern than instablap barrage.

And I would recommend setting blasblastersres to 900-950 DPS and tweak upward based on your finalized hulls.

It will be easier to step the weapons up or down as needed en masse if we set up a baseline Rather than having to play guessing games with each one.

If we start here, then it's easier to balance them so they can be used on infantry without being overpowering or needing special modules to tighten the dispersion.

My two cents. Hope it helps.

I should probably post my reasoning here:

Infantry AAV and large turrets pretty much have the same function. I believe that the turrets should be more advantageous for killing tanks though, so I believe keeping their overall DPS ahead of infantry AV is the way to go But not by a vast margin.

Both have the same TTK issue. If either kills too fast, why bother driving what is effectively a suicide box? But if they kill too slow then back to square 1. It's why I think vehicle guns and heavy/handhelds should follow similar lines.

That being said, would it be bad if small rails behaved more like the assault forge gun. Traditionally infantry crew served weapons are simply vehicle pintle mounted weapons with parts swapped out for being usable by infantry.

If we set it up right we could potentially be using vehicle model smalls as heavy weapons and vice versa.

On a similar note, could the heavy weapons be converted to vehicle use as well?

And finally on the heat mechanics.

Heat was originally added to rails and blasters tou counteract infinite ammunition. Now that we actually have depletable ammunition magazines, is it feasible to looking at removing the trait in favor of ammo capacity control?

One of the oft-repeated complaints I keep hearing from HAV drivers is that tank vs. Tank engagements end too quickly.

The gold standard seems to be who pulls the trigger with doubled damage mods first wins.

I'm iffy but honestly if they want longer fights I can't think of a reason to tell 'em no. But it means the DHAVs will probably need a good turret bonus.

One of the oft-repeated complaints I keep hearing from HAV drivers is that tank vs. Tank engagements end too quickly.

The gold standard seems to be who pulls the trigger with doubled damage mods first wins.

I'm iffy but honestly if they want longer fights I can't think of a reason to tell 'em no. But it means the DHAVs will probably need a good turret bonus.

A quick comment here, i am not a fan a reducing the Missile turret clip. Yes they are OP vs Armor, but extremley UP v other shields.

I don't want to be critical without giving a solution however, so i do want to also note that the missile turret has recieved a number of buffs. The most notable of which was when they got a -20% + 20% damage profile change. The main issue with this sort of profile damage is that a single Armor hardener (-25% damage resist) can only negate 5 percent of damage while a single shield hardener (-40%) can negate 60% missile damage

With your proposal, missiles would do per clip

10* 540 = 5,400 damage, 4320 vs shields and 6480 vs armor.

Vs 1 Active hardner

5,400 damage, (- 20% profile - 40% hardened = -60%) = 2160 vs shields (+20% - 25% hardned = -5%) 6156 armor.

Still keeps it OP vs armor and UP vs shields.

Proposal:

How about giving it a hybrid damage profile, and keeping it at 12 rounds per magazine.

12 missiles per clip 6480 -10% damage 5832 damage vs shield + 10% = 7128 vs armor

VS hardener active

6480 damage ( - 10% - 40% = -50%) vs shields = 3240 damage

6480 damage ( + 10% - 25% = -15%) vs armor = 5508 damage

We can keep the missile count at 12 and still do less damage vs a hardened armor tank than 10 missiles do against an un hardned tank.

3240 damage can be negated by two ADV heavy shield extenders (giving current gunlogis) 4664 shields
A light shield booster can knock the ehp back up to full in the 12 seconds it takes for a missile tank to reload.
A second hardner negates another 40% damage.

Cons: un hardend shield and armor tanks still will have a rough time of it.

Pros: better balance in the AV turrets that heavily favor anti armor weapons, gives hardened armor tanks a fighting chance, while still leaving shield vehicles the advantage when fighting a missile tanks, just not as large as an advatage they had before.

HAV vs HAV TTK are fine imho, i would like to keep the TTK short if one tank manage to ambush the other, i've also managed to destroy more than 1 HAV in a short time when i ambushed them.

For reference can we get a maximum heat capacity for large rails / blasters?

First impression: Holy crap proposed rails do a lot of damage, I think they might drastically edge out other weapons based on that alone (3 railgun rounds >>> full missile volley). Is it possible to slow missile RoF and adjust damage so they're less of an instant-gank deathweapon and more of a 'bring these out when you want to ruin installations or a target that's sitting still'. I'm not great with how certain numbers would affect balance, but jumping missiles from 1.5 seconds (proposed) for full volley to 2.4 maybe?

I don't want rails to be useless, but with the proposed stats on them they still have the lethal combination of damage and range that promotes red-line tank sniping.

What if we just make armor hardeners worth fitting, then armor vehicles can choose that. I would rather stick with missiles being explosive damage and thus -20/+20

Dear players,

We want to reach a 100% equilibrium between the AV capabilities of Large Turrets, their primary purpose.

The AI of Large Turrets should be thought in terms of an Active module, reducing Dispersion. All other factors should be towards making it the Close range brawler weapon of choice.

There will not be a Large Fragmented Missile Launcher in Phase 1. Only Small Fragmented, and the current Small Missile Launcher will be converted to an AV weapon.

Guidance Principles
Missile Launcher Alpha is too extreme
Railgun is too good at everything
Blaster is not good enough at close

There are a few "Best to Worst" guidance examples in my spreadsheet, found here under "Large Turrets" HAV Large Turrets

Please discuss.

Railgun isn't too good at anything. I have non-fires, misfires, reload glitches, fire-automatically-until-it-overheats glitches, and sometimes it goes right through a target, most often a turret installation. I've also watched rounds go through dropships. Dunno if that's a bug, or working as intended as if the dropship has a rectangular hole inside its hit box.

HAV vs HAV TTK are fine imho, i would like to keep the TTK short if one tank manage to ambush the other, i've also managed to destroy more than 1 HAV in a short time when i ambushed them.

Frontal assault when both tanks activate modules take a good amount of time and are also attracting AV attention, if we raise the TTK, even if one tank destroy the other, then the AV will have enough time to esily destroy the remaining tank.
This is also to take in consideration, if to destroy another tank, i have to waste mine because AV, then i will rather go AV myself to destroy the enemy tank and not lose mine.

^one adv damage mod and catching someone between cycles or shooting at any armor tank.

what level turret? and youre fitting this on a gunnlogi or maddy? either way youre only good for a single 1v1 bout. the gunnlogi turns into glass, and a maddy with that fit would need cpu mod, so glass fit again. thats hardly an OP tank.

maybe i should start tossing the word "efficient" around. the missile launcher is "efficient" like a SCR lol.

thing is though, missile arent used in PC. they arent even used in serious tanking. anyone that is pissed off at a tank that wants to kill it with a tank, is going to get a dual tank gunnlogi with a railgun.

This has crossed my mind alot. It becomes a sort of house of cards. The current Missile meta vs Armor tanks is because of a lack of defense vs Missiles.

Armor tanks need a hardener tough enough to stand a chance vs Missiles, yet not so tough as to completely negate swarms. Knock on effects might make my incubus very difficult to take down, for mathematical reasons rather than pilot skill.

Missiles vs shields are UP at the moment and reducing the clip only adds to that.

I'd guess i'd would to see how a new armor hardener works and the new eHP of armor tanks before tweaks to the missile. the current stats seem okay for today's meta, but i can only speculateabout the future tank meta.

On paper, though a 12 second reload vs a new and improved blaster turret, coupled with a signifcant DPS reduction, as well as an armor hardner buff leaves me a bit worried for my missiles.

Madrugars suffer from massive fitting failures. The gunnlogi fitting is very generous and allows solid fits. Even to the point of rendering many turrets and AV options moot.

would rather not post these for all the world to see, but here are some PC tank fights from last week. Im running test fits in both videos to judge their competitiveness.

http://youtu.be/kXD5TCWfj64?t=8m

http://youtu.be/tP1S22B9-Ts?t=7m3s

you guys tell me where the maddy's are. tell me where the missiles are.

i saw dual brick tanked gunnlogis, dual hardener gunnlogis and dual damage mod gunnlogis. thats it

Madrugar has no CPU

That is part of the problem that people are attempting to address, the 'meta' fit where x thing is clearly superior to others. 2x Hardener gunnlogi can pull 10kehp and reduces missile damage to pathetic values.

Missiles vs shields is not the 'meta' so it won't be used, however when an armor tank shows up, missiles eat it alive. Missiles *can* also kill one of those dual hardener tanks so long as they catch it when hardeners are down.

I would say it's one of the fundamental problems of the current HAV design - armor is underpowered and missiles are hilariously OP vs armor, but they suck vs shields.

actually id argue that maddy's are junk to begin with because they have crap fitting capacity. they cant field a competitive defense without giving up a competitive and practical offensive ability. most maddy's i see have between 4k and 6k armor hp. thats not enough to protect it. thats the problem. the missiles are actually fine.

youre nerfing missiles because maddy's are broken. the fix should simply be... fix the fitting on the maddy.

Guys

I am doing my homework here, with the loadouts. I started a brand new character and walked exactly through the steps of "what mighe each fit be with a given PG/CPU", without using PG/CPU mods. That means using suboptimal fits to experiment and get a fit under the cap.

To do a full PRO tank, and leaving the small turrets, we need way higher PG/CPU, and or some core PG/CPU skills, that I like actually.

!

they where designed to be a hard counter to armor, and i always assumed that laser turrets would be OP vs shields whenever they come out