DUST Search - AV feedback

Jack McReady wrote:

MINA Longstrike wrote:

I find it to be in very poor taste to believe that a vehicle user should have to have what, 20m dropped into their role in order to have a 'chance' at surviving against individuals with first mover advantage. Before I'm jumped on for this or have my words twisted [b]this is nothing even close to expressing a desire to flit about in an invincible death machine[b]. I want my investments into vehicles to feel meaningful, not to lead to frustration because I was blindsided and instant murdered by things I can see..

so, just because you use vehicles you are special and should get better treatmeant? what you are complaining about is true for anyone ingame. you already get massive advantages, yet it is not enough...

I have already busted this "instant murdered" myths on several occassion now. a single person cannot ever kill a properly tanked dropship or HAV under 9 seconds. if you cant react in 9 seconds accordingly then maybe a FPS is not for you. if you overextend and get alphad by several AV specialists then it was a mistake on your part.

MINA Longstrike wrote:

Pissy ad-hominem attacks are not why I've participated in this thread.

it is not my fault that this is the content of your post stretched over several sentences. it is too late for you to play the innocent.

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Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2144	Posted - 2015.01.29 12:52:00 - [151] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Baal: I can tell you that answer. If AV gunner has been playing more than two years AS an AV gunner? Odds are good he can break that power curve. Anyone else is dogchow. I still want my Amarr anti-shield AV turret I can strap to my LAV...... Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1990	Posted - 2015.01.29 13:07:00 - [152] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^No, as there is a disproportionate level of investment required by the vehicle user. read: "I spent some isk and SP, thus I want to be immune to everything and be able to do everything" you are supposed to die just like everyone else especially against something that counters you. you are not supposed to be able to do everything on your own. beside that, your SP carry over to all other vehicles. you get huge mobility and immunity to majority of weapons. I have proven several times it is possible to survive against specialized max skill AV. deal with it and git gud or continue to be a whiny wimp. your choice.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2039	Posted - 2015.01.29 13:10:00 - [153] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I haven't actually encountered the need to drop infantry skills on my HAV alt. I do all my infantry scutwork on this character. As in haven't needed to skill into infantry? Or you have a mix? I myself find it hard to play with Mina's tanks and dropships while I'm using my minlogi/minscout alt (zero way for me to have those on Mina without dumping tons of money into boosters & grinding to cap out every week.) and I find it exceptionally hard to make good use of Mina's vehicles on research lab domination, where I'd much rather have the minlogi. I find it to be in very poor taste to believe that a vehicle user should have to have what, 20m dropped into their role in order to have a 'chance' at surviving against individuals with first mover advantage. Before I'm jumped on for this or have my words twisted [b]this is nothing even close to expressing a desire to flit about in an invincible death machine[b]. I want my investments into vehicles to feel meaningful, not to lead to frustration because I was blindsided and instant murdered by things I can see. There is an equal desire on av side to want their investments to feel meaningful (and currently some vehicles really make it not feel that way), but if you're taking the lazy mans option of 'point in general direction and let go of trigger' I do not believe your investment should be hyper-effective compared to mine, you should have to work a bit harder than plcs or forges. Av vs V balance has been something that has had problems for forever and a day (lai dai packed spam, instant kill breach forges, 400m lock range swarms). Antagonism on the part of whichever side has the upper hand is never a step towards balance. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2039	Posted - 2015.01.29 13:15:00 - [154] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^No, as there is a disproportionate level of investment required by the vehicle user. read: "I spent some isk and SP, thus I want to be immune to everything and be able to do everything" you are supposed to die just like everyone else especially against something that counters you. you are not supposed to be able to do everything on your own. beside that, your SP carry over to all other vehicles. you get huge mobility and immunity to majority of weapons. I have proven several times it is possible to survive against specialized max skill AV. deal with it and git gud or continue to be a whiny wimp. your choice. Pissy ad-hominem attacks are not why I've participated in this thread, if this is all I'm going to get for attempting to be productive and helpful when bringing to light actual concerns on either side of this issue and actively speaking out against things I feel will harm infantry gameplay experience I have little desire or incentive to continue to be helpful or productive. You can **ing talk to spkr instead and go around in your little counterproductive hate circle jerk until the sun dies out. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1990	Posted - 2015.01.29 13:18:00 - [155] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I find it to be in very poor taste to believe that a vehicle user should have to have what, 20m dropped into their role in order to have a 'chance' at surviving against individuals with first mover advantage. Before I'm jumped on for this or have my words twisted [b]this is nothing even close to expressing a desire to flit about in an invincible death machine[b]. I want my investments into vehicles to feel meaningful, not to lead to frustration because I was blindsided and instant murdered by things I can see.. so, just because you use vehicles you are special and should get better treatmeant? what you are complaining about is true for anyone ingame. you already get massive advantages, yet it is not enough... I have already busted this "instant murdered" myths on several occassion now. a single person cannot ever kill a properly tanked dropship or HAV under 19 seconds. if you cant react in 9 seconds accordingly then maybe a FPS is not for you. if you overextend and get alphad by several AV specialist you failed and deserved to get rekt. MINA Longstrike wrote: Pissy ad-hominem attacks are not why I've participated in this thread. except this is what you wrote, stretched over several sentences...
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6836	Posted - 2015.01.29 13:27:00 - [156] - Quote No nerd Mina is saying she should get equivalent payout from 25 million SP in HAVs as I get from 25 million in SP dumped into my fatsuits. It's a valid complaint given that half the problem is that at any given time half the vehicle lineup is urutter trash and the other half borders or is OP combined with limited utility maps that are nothing more than killboxes that eat vehicle drivers. I know this because I use those killboxes. Mina is absolutely correct when she says that building maps torch HAV utility. However on my fatsuits if I'm stuck on an open ground map I can swap yo a forge fit and play Zeus, god of lightning and act as area denial to anything that moves. AND be good at making vehicles **** their pants. If you drop an HAV in the gallente lab there is a countdown timer effectively. You WILL lose your HAV unless you engage in skirmish attacks that accomplish nothing but picking off stragglers. AV
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2039	Posted - 2015.01.29 13:27:00 - [157] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I find it to be in very poor taste to believe that a vehicle user should have to have what, 20m dropped into their role in order to have a 'chance' at surviving against individuals with first mover advantage. Before I'm jumped on for this or have my words twisted [b]this is nothing even close to expressing a desire to flit about in an invincible death machine[b]. I want my investments into vehicles to feel meaningful, not to lead to frustration because I was blindsided and instant murdered by things I can see.. so, just because you use vehicles you are special and should get better treatmeant? what you are complaining about is true for anyone ingame. you already get massive advantages, yet it is not enough... I have already busted this "instant murdered" myths on several occassion now. a single person cannot ever kill a properly tanked dropship or HAV under 9 seconds. if you cant react in 9 seconds accordingly then maybe a FPS is not for you. if you overextend and get alphad by several AV specialists then it was a mistake on your part. MINA Longstrike wrote: Pissy ad-hominem attacks are not why I've participated in this thread. it is not my fault that this is the content of your post stretched over several sentences. it is too late for you to play the innocent. So you're going to continue attacking me for no reason then? Other than "YOU USE VEHICLES YOU'RE THE ENEMY!!!". Cool, probably done with this thread, there is no actual discussion to be had here, you're trying to drum up a witchhunt. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1994	Posted - 2015.01.29 13:48:00 - [158] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: stuff well, does your zeus fatsuit have great mobility, escape button and is immune to majority of weapons? vehicles always were force multipliers, thats how they were implemented into the game and I dont see how you can actually fix that in a reasonable fashion. maps are too small. dev cycles take too long. and most pilots just cry about how they die
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2146	Posted - 2015.01.29 14:06:00 - [159] - Quote I think adding the swarm-that's-looking-at-you's locking sounds to the vehicle pilot's audio input would be all that's needed to make the swarm easily balanceable, no matter what variants come out for it. We have to get close to lock, really close to lock all 3 before you are able to get behind cover or out range our lock. Many times I've been virtually standing on top of a shield tank and had it out range my lock before I could get my 3rd lock, and it takes far more than a single clip to kill any shield tank with even a MLT hardner and no skills into them. 2 MLT hardners is enough to keep maxed swarms (not necessarily on a minmando, haven't used one at max level yet so I don't know) from even breaking a MLT shield tank's rep cycle. Adding a warning that you are targeted would of course have to be balanced out by swarm tweaks, but at the very least it would help make up for swarm rendering issues and visibility due to draw distance. And then the other voice in my head says 'I get no indicator when a Thales is targeting my 265,000 ISK AV suit, or when a forge sniper across the map is eyeballing me, or when someone is lining up an OB above my head, or when a squad of scouts is sneaking up on me from behind with a shotgun...' ...but I'm trying to ignore him for now. The point is that there are issues with the swarm launcher, and the easiest way of dealing with them appears to be adding a locking indicator, even if there is a bit of a delay in hearing it, any indicator is better than the current state of things. That said, there are issues against the swarm launcher that need to be addressed as well and with the inclusion of the locking indicator there will need to be a rework of ranges and perhaps even how they fire. My favored method would be to make it so that up to 150m, all 4 swarms fire, 3 swarms fire up to 200, 2 swarms up to 250 and one swarm for anything beyond 250. This lets swarms AV from further away with reduced damage, but also makes them better for closer engagements than at range while letting swarms chip off health from vehicles trying to speed away or support other AVers from afar. Maybe make this the assault variant, better for chasing faster vehicles. Possibly faster missiles with less kickback when hitting dropships just to keep things a bit more balanced. Possibly make the specialist variant into a breach with only 100m range, both lock and flight, but way more damage, faster lock and only one missile, or alternatively make it one missile dumbfire, massive damage, miniscule blast radius, no different than the PLC technically except it shoots straight and the missile is a bit faster, perhaps with a slight spiral instead of an ar that can be calculated for. Maybe even one shot clip like the PLC..... ....but that's just the other voice trying to force his way out.... think I should go feed him soon, his posting gets snarky when he's hungry. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1500	Posted - 2015.01.29 14:11:00 - [160] - Quote Tanks have issues, including lack of utility if the skill tree, but those are not AV balance issues. Using terms like "lazy man's way" "instakilled" and "blindsided" are is not being helpful, constructive or accurate. Because, that's why.

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2039	Posted - 2015.01.29 14:12:00 - [161] - Quote ^honestly Baal, I'd be against the 'less missiles fired' simply because it would screw with using a swarm optimally. And it turns swarms back into things that cover multiple objectives, even if they don't do it well. I'm not fond of the thought of returning to 1.6 where no matter where I am on the map, swarms will constantly be flying after me from rooftops. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6836	Posted - 2015.01.29 14:17:00 - [162] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^honestly Baal, I'd be against the 'less missiles fired' simply because it would screw with using a swarm optimally. And it turns swarms back into things that cover multiple objectives, even if they don't do it well. I'm not fond of the thought of returning to 1.6 where no matter where I am on the map, swarms will constantly be flying after me from rooftops. There needs to be a reliable way to flush rats off rooftops. I prefer my AV brawling, bloody and risky. Forge snipers on towers are entirely too difficult to dislodge in my opinion. Even a one shot hybrid OB drop on their heads. Same with swarms. It's a pain in the ass to do the setup to get up there but you can effectively dig in like a tick once you do. Forcing more ground fights or having LADDERS to campable rooftops would be amazing. AV
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1994	Posted - 2015.01.29 14:18:00 - [163] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Forcing more ground fights or having LADDERS to campable rooftops would be amazing. +1 I want ladders!
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2147	Posted - 2015.01.29 15:40:00 - [164] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^honestly Baal, I'd be against the 'less missiles fired' simply because it would screw with using a swarm optimally. And it turns swarms back into things that cover multiple objectives, even if they don't do it well. I'm not fond of the thought of returning to 1.6 where no matter where I am on the map, swarms will constantly be flying after me from rooftops. There needs to be a reliable way to flush rats off rooftops. I prefer my AV brawling, bloody and risky. Forge snipers on towers are entirely too difficult to dislodge in my opinion. Even a one shot hybrid OB drop on their heads. Same with swarms. It's a pain in the ass to do the setup to get up there but you can effectively dig in like a tick once you do. Forcing more ground fights or having LADDERS to campable rooftops would be amazing. In a perfect world there would be ladders everywhere, equipment wouldn't be glitchable into objects, rooftop camping would be easily delt with and there would be no draw distance or rendering issues for AV projectiles. As things stand, and considering the constraints under which we have to work, adding a sound prompt and adjusting the swarms make a the most sense in my view. Sure, you can get pecked at by swarms from across the map again, but at 1/4 damage, meaning they are accomplishing nothing more than a guy shooting an infantry player with an SMG from 80m would be. That wouldn't even break the shield repair cycle on a soma, but it WOULD allow the swarmer to engage with a vehicle it has already begun to fight but is escaping. Flight distance wouldn't change, so you could lock and not even be able to get a hit, but being able to lock as a fatty in a LAV barrels towards you would be VERY satisfying sisince as it is if you can lock, you're too late. At work now, will respond more later Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2040	Posted - 2015.01.29 15:48:00 - [165] - Quote It's note 1/4 dmg when enemy has been beaten back from [objective] and 3-8 players with nothing to shoot switch over to swarms. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 67	Posted - 2015.02.01 00:14:00 - [166] - Quote Took a little break from dust... ANYWAYS! Into the matters. Firstly, any arguments, deal with it personally (queue sync a factional or something...) please? Secondly, a lock on warning is not a bad thing... HOWEVER, it could lead to people adapting (i.e: AB away asap). Now this will come down to one thing, the time it takes before you hear the warning klaxon. Will it be half way in the lock? Once fired? Thridly, someone in 1st airborne had a great idea: "shoot at swarms," he said. Knowing hitting them will be a miracle, i understand that it's not that bad of an idea. Fourthly, anywhere a dropship can reach, 2/3 ladders should reach there. Hell maybe a hackable elevator. Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 784	Posted - 2015.02.01 01:06:00 - [167] - Quote Haven't read the full thread, I will eventually but have to add: PLC is best AV. But if you want to buff it's damage profile I'm ok with that. I'm also ok with not buffing the damage but buffing the knockaround instead, vs HAVs too. That'd be awesome. Grenade throwing mechanics stifle AV nades from their full potential, there's no reason my super-soldier-suit throws like a kindergartener. Range, reliable bouncing/rebounding mechanics and maybe an aiming arc would help. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 67	Posted - 2015.02.01 01:26:00 - [168] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Haven't read the full thread, I will eventually but have to add: PLC is best AV i do agree PLC is the best AV for close range engagements. Would you say a 100-250 buff to damage is good/too much? Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6905	Posted - 2015.02.01 02:49:00 - [169] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: It's not 1/4 dmg when enemy has been beaten back from [objective] and 3-8 players with nothing to shoot switch over to swarms. That still ends up being a lethal threat albeit a technically inefficient one. I hate autocorrect. Any argument predicated on multiple people focusing fire being a balance concern isn't one I take seriously. AV
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 68	Posted - 2015.02.01 04:13:00 - [170] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: It's not 1/4 dmg when enemy has been beaten back from [objective] and 3-8 players with nothing to shoot switch over to swarms. That still ends up being a lethal threat albeit a technically inefficient one. I hate autocorrect. Any argument predicated on multiple people focusing fire being a balance concern isn't one I take seriously. I understand what MINA is saying though, but it's something that cannot be "balanced" per se. I think MINA is saying this: "OH a vehicle passed a supply depot, so lets all switch to AV to get some damage points. Oh, the vehicle left? Okay lets all switch back now." ^ rinse and repeat. The way i realized how this is how some think is in dom. My squad is rushing the depot, i fly near by (rail incubus, so i'm in a position looking for any vehicles approaching my squad/team) the enemies first begin defending the depot, but then switched to AV. It was suicidal yes (the entire kill feed just turned green), but why did they switch to AV while they are being attacked? Easy warpoints (damage points). As in supporting MINA's point, rarely there is NOT dedicated AV players... It's just "oh you killed me?" "oh you came near the depot?" and other things of the ilk. But now multiply that by the lock distance change. RedRails? RedSwarms too. Camping the depot? No vehicle ever coming close. (I hope I understood you MINA) But that's something that cannot change... lots of people switch, fire two rounds, switch back. Changing that changes infantry, which is too much of a change just for AV balance nevertheless. Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6908	Posted - 2015.02.01 04:15:00 - [171] - Quote Casually swapping out instantly at a depot is a thing I feel needs to change. I am that guy who will actually suicide a clone to load AV RIGHT NOW. AV
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1376	Posted - 2015.02.01 04:17:00 - [172] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Casually swapping out instantly at a depot is a thing I feel needs to change. I am that guy who will actually suicide a clone to load AV RIGHT NOW. This is why supply depots get primaried by tanks that know their team won't hold it. I'm the Rayman of uplinks. 21 day EVE trial.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 68	Posted - 2015.02.01 04:22:00 - [173] - Quote I definitely take out the depots first -- even when my squad tries to hack it. Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.


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