DUST Search - AV feedback

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Baal Omniscient wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Baal Omniscient wrote:

Does the math include the time you are releasing a volley and the down time it takes before you can make a lock again?

I trust your math, but I'm not sure it's all inclusive. I will be testing this later just to be sure.

What you are talking about is the refire delay I was talking about.

I can't find it.

We've found the values for the PLC and the forge gun, but cannot locate any of the others as yet.

I'm not certain of the exact value either, but my partner and I just finished recording a video for this. Our best attempt at firing them as fast as we could begins:

(exact times pulled from the video editor)

01:36:00 Start first lock
01:37:73 First lock complete
01:38:60 First swarm finishes firing

01:40:93 Second lock completes
01:41:63 Second swarm finishes firing

01:44:53 Third lock completes
01:45:47 Third swarm finishes firing

This was at 170ish meters. Between the start of the first lock and firing the last lock is a lot more time than 3.15 seconds. In fact, it takes longer than 3.15 seconds from the start of the first lock to the end of the second lock. Even without the milisecond data from the editor you can easily tell that it takes longer than 3.15 seconds to even lock the second volley, let alone lock and fire the two shots.

Also, my partner shooting at me in this video has Prof. 4 swarms and was using a STD 'Dren' swarm launcher with no damage mods, and the tank I'm in is a MLT Soma with 2 MLT BPO heavy armor repairs, a MLT scanner and a MLT fuel injector if you are curious about the damage I was taking.

I would also like to note that the poor blue who's dropship was killed in this video at just after 2:50 (and who later attacked my partner once or twice) was sent 2 million ISK for his trouble.

Lastly, my partner wishes to apologize for the video quality. And she say's if you don't like it, 'Up yours'.

which swarm launcher are you using? The Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher or the Wiyrkomi Specialist Swarm Launcher? The wiyrkomi specialist is identical in all ways except it has a longer lock time at 1.96 then combined with a 0.3 second refire delay penalty that isn't documented for a baseline fire time of 2.26, of which only 1.96 is counted for the lock reduction skill.

Ok dren. What was her swarm skill? Because at level 5 swarms are supposed to get a 25% reduction to lock time. If she's unskilled then yes, you're floating right around the baseline lock time. which for the dren is 1.4 I believe.


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Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2133	Posted - 2015.01.26 23:45:00 - [1] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I disagree on the range of swarms. I believe it's a rate of fire problem. They would be easier to balance around average flight time to target with the time it takes to travel the full 200m being the refire delay time. This would allow the longer lock ranges Without having vehicles hhammered by three shots in under 3.5 seconds. That ungodly DPS rate needs to be slowed. Somebody break out a stopwatch and a youtube clip, I've ran swarms since closed beta and I've not been able to fire swarms that fast since pre 1.7..... when did this happen? Because when I fire, at all maxed swarm skills, it's nearly 2 seconds just to lock, then you have to wait about 1.5 seconds before you can lock again. If you press the lock button again too fast it does nothing. You know I've been behind you on AV since we used to bash balance over Mr. Zitro's head daily, but 3 shots in under 3.5 seconds? ....lets just say I've personally not managed that stat on the best of days.... Do you have a video of this feat? Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2138	Posted - 2015.01.27 17:28:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I disagree on the range of swarms. I believe it's a rate of fire problem. They would be easier to balance around average flight time to target with the time it takes to travel the full 200m being the refire delay time. This would allow the longer lock ranges Without having vehicles hhammered by three shots in under 3.5 seconds. That ungodly DPS rate needs to be slowed. Somebody break out a stopwatch and a youtube clip, I've ran swarms since closed beta and I've not been able to fire swarms that fast since pre 1.7..... when did this happen? Because when I fire, at all maxed swarm skills, it's nearly 2 seconds just to lock, then you have to wait about 1.5 seconds before you can lock again. If you press the lock button again too fast it does nothing. You know I've been behind you on AV since we used to bash balance over Mr. Zitro's head daily, but 3 shots in under 3.5 seconds? ....lets just say I've personally not managed that stat on the best of days.... Do you have a video of this feat? Ok 3.15 exactly according to the math with level 5 swarms. The weird little shot delay at the back end of the PLC was apparently removed from swarms. It's a full second delay on the forge hilariously Does the math include the time you are releasing a volley and the down time it takes before you can make a lock again? I trust your math, but I'm not sure it's all inclusive. I will be testing this later just to be sure. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2138	Posted - 2015.01.28 09:29:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Does the math include the time you are releasing a volley and the down time it takes before you can make a lock again? I trust your math, but I'm not sure it's all inclusive. I will be testing this later just to be sure. What you are talking about is the refire delay I was talking about. I can't find it. We've found the values for the PLC and the forge gun, but cannot locate any of the others as yet. I'm not certain of the exact value either, but my partner and I just finished recording a video for this. Our best attempt at firing them as fast as we could begins: (exact times pulled from the video editor) 01:36:00 Start first lock 01:37:73 First lock complete 01:38:60 First swarm finishes firing 01:40:93 Second lock completes 01:41:63 Second swarm finishes firing 01:44:53 Third lock completes 01:45:47 Third swarm finishes firing This was at 170ish meters. Between the start of the first lock and firing the last lock is a lot more time than 3.15 seconds. In fact, it takes longer than 3.15 seconds from the start of the first lock to the end of the second lock. Even without the milisecond data from the editor you can easily tell that it takes longer than 3.15 seconds to even lock the second volley, let alone lock and fire the two shots. Also, my partner shooting at me in this video has Prof. 4 swarms and was using a STD 'Dren' swarm launcher with no damage mods, and the tank I'm in is a MLT Soma with 2 MLT BPO heavy armor repairs, a MLT scanner and a MLT fuel injector if you are curious about the damage I was taking. I would also like to note that the poor blue who's dropship was killed in this video at just after 2:50 (and who later attacked my partner once or twice) was sent 2 million ISK for his trouble. Lastly, my partner wishes to apologize for the video quality. And she say's if you don't like it, 'Up yours'. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2138	Posted - 2015.01.28 10:44:00 - [4] - Quote If you watch when she gets ammo from her hive, it's a STD 'Dren' swarm launcher. (mentioned this when writing my partners swarm levels, 3 paragraphs from the end) Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2138	Posted - 2015.01.28 10:58:00 - [5] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Does the math include the time you are releasing a volley and the down time it takes before you can make a lock again? I trust your math, but I'm not sure it's all inclusive. I will be testing this later just to be sure. What you are talking about is the refire delay I was talking about. I can't find it. We've found the values for the PLC and the forge gun, but cannot locate any of the others as yet. I'm not certain of the exact value either, but my partner and I just finished recording a video for this. Our best attempt at firing them as fast as we could begins: (exact times pulled from the video editor) 01:36:00 Start first lock 01:37:73 First lock complete 01:38:60 First swarm finishes firing 01:40:93 Second lock completes 01:41:63 Second swarm finishes firing 01:44:53 Third lock completes 01:45:47 Third swarm finishes firing This was at 170ish meters. Between the start of the first lock and firing the last lock is a lot more time than 3.15 seconds. In fact, it takes longer than 3.15 seconds from the start of the first lock to the end of the second lock. Even without the milisecond data from the editor you can easily tell that it takes longer than 3.15 seconds to even lock the second volley, let alone lock and fire the two shots. Also, my partner shooting at me in this video has Prof. 4 swarms and was using a STD 'Dren' swarm launcher with no damage mods, and the tank I'm in is a MLT Soma with 2 MLT BPO heavy armor repairs, a MLT scanner and a MLT fuel injector if you are curious about the damage I was taking. I would also like to note that the poor blue who's dropship was killed in this video at just after 2:50 (and who later attacked my partner once or twice) was sent 2 million ISK for his trouble. Lastly, my partner wishes to apologize for the video quality. And she say's if you don't like it, 'Up yours'. which swarm launcher are you using? The Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher or the Wiyrkomi Specialist Swarm Launcher? The wiyrkomi specialist is identical in all ways except it has a longer lock time at 1.96 then combined with a 0.3 second refire delay penalty that isn't documented for a baseline fire time of 2.26, of which only 1.96 is counted for the lock reduction skill. Ok dren. What was her swarm skill? Because at level 5 swarms are supposed to get a 25% reduction to lock time. If she's unskilled then yes, you're floating right around the baseline lock time. which for the dren is 1.4 I believe. In the same paragraph I mentioned her swarm type, I said she has Prof. 4 swarms. Though the skill may say it gives a 25% reduction, it's not exactly noticeable as you can see. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2138	Posted - 2015.01.28 11:10:00 - [6] - Quote Basically if you knock off the last 0.47 seconds, call it a margin for human error if you like, you still take 9 seconds from the start of the first lock to when the last swarm leaves the barrel. That's still well over 2 times as long as the proposed 3.15, and it's just over 3 times as long if you don't knock off that last 0.47s. Non variant swarms, OP 5. Also note how even though I'm still a huge target in plain view in that tank, an easy target for a forge or even a PLC if I don't move, 3 steps back and you can't even lock anymore. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2138	Posted - 2015.01.28 12:19:00 - [7] - Quote Agreed. Mathematically they are busted, but in practice they function very differently. Heading to work, I'll check back in later. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2140	Posted - 2015.01.28 21:11:00 - [8] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Jack McReady wrote: my bad but that is still 360 dps without reload for the regular forge. there is still the option for the assault forge which has higher dps. this thing is still a beast considering the amount of shots per reload and range coupled with the alpha and AI capabilities. imho this doesnt change the fact that swarms are not as powerful as the pilot wimps are claiming. It takes only three volleys of proficiency two prototype swarms to kill a complex 60mm plated Incubus. You don't even know they're coming until the first hits, because they don't render. Forges may be good, but swarms are the lazy mans AV and should be balanced as such. My partner just fitted an incubus with approximately the health of a complex plate (2 basic plates equipped, meaning it has 86 more eHP than your ship with a single complex armor mod) and an armor hardner and I hopped into it while my Prof. 4 swarm partner shot at it. Here's the ship's stats and here's her swarm fitting at the time. And just for you, here's the video. You'll notice that not only did I survive 3 volleys, I survived with 397 HP. Which means your ship should have survived with 311 armor. And if you say 'but you were using a hardner'.... then you obviously don't know much about flying a dropship. Also note that I was just chilling out taking the hits, I had plenty of time to out range them but I did not. And if I were specced into them (I have 0 SP in vehicles) or had a better fitted ship, or even if I could have fit an armor repair, there would have been very little reason for me to have died when caught in this scenario. Edit: Not trying to imply the armor vehicles, or even dropships, are in a good place. Just straightening out facts you had distorted. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2140	Posted - 2015.01.28 21:35:00 - [9] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^if you had dropped the hardener for a rep you wouldn't have lived, you were also aware that there would be inconing fire and were probably at a range where you could have broken lock via range. These situations seldom happen for ads because hovering at 170m means were not actually doing our jobs, we need to get much closer in order to do things like remove uplinks or support squadmates. Being blindsided by swarms at 70m will usually mean there's already a second volley in the air and a third locking. The video was 34 seconds long, if you want to claim something about it, watch it. Also, it was at approximately 94 meters, and if she were specced into dropships it would have been fitted with a complex plate, an armor rep AND a hardner, so you point on that is a bit moot. Lastly this video was made to disprove that you could kill a complex armor modded Incubus at Prof. 2 swarms with only 3 volleys. Not that my Prof. 4 swarm partner could kill an unhardened Incubus with only 3 volleys. As I said before, we were disproving a point, not making one about the state of the vehicles. If you have any other outrageous claims to make though, we are happy to test them for you. (Whether the result is good or bad for AV I might add. ) Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2141	Posted - 2015.01.28 22:28:00 - [10] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Thanks for the playtesting and footage. It really helps giving those spreadsheets a proper foundation. I sometimes tend to get caught up in numbers myself - and there's only a limited time available for trying out different roles. We are more than happy to show any inaccuracies in a persons statements on video, and if that helps show you a role better, we are happy to help. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.

Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2142	Posted - 2015.01.29 00:48:00 - [11] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^unable to watch from phone currently Ah, sorry for the remark then. I do believe my point still stands though. As does my offer Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2144	Posted - 2015.01.29 12:43:00 - [12] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^No, as there is a disproportionate level of investment required by the vehicle user. Either we use all of our skillpoints on vehicles and the game changes to accommodate people who have zero infantry skills via stuff like remote hacks and massive maps... Effectively allowing fully skilled vehicles to play with zero infantry investment. Or we spend a decent chunk of sp on infantry things *as they are required to play the game in meaningful manners* and then we are also able to invest in vehicles and expect reasonable survivability, utility and life expectancy for our non infantry skill choices and large monetary investments. If we have to put away our 'toys' to play the game in meaningful manners our level of sp investment goes up dramatically as unlike core skills & equipment & weapons which carry over when the fotm changes our vehicle skillpoints are useless on a map like research lab. "I get to spend at most 15m sp into my one role (if that's all I've done) to negate your >18m sp investment... And you don't get to play unless you've also spent 10-15m on top of that for a dropsuit". Understand where this is going? Dear CCP, Please show us the average life expectancy of a vehicle driver compared to the average life expectancy of a player running an AV primary weapon so we can see who gets more out of their investment in in-game play time. Thank you. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2144	Posted - 2015.01.29 12:52:00 - [13] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Baal: I can tell you that answer. If AV gunner has been playing more than two years AS an AV gunner? Odds are good he can break that power curve. Anyone else is dogchow. I still want my Amarr anti-shield AV turret I can strap to my LAV...... Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2146	Posted - 2015.01.29 14:06:00 - [14] - Quote I think adding the swarm-that's-looking-at-you's locking sounds to the vehicle pilot's audio input would be all that's needed to make the swarm easily balanceable, no matter what variants come out for it. We have to get close to lock, really close to lock all 3 before you are able to get behind cover or out range our lock. Many times I've been virtually standing on top of a shield tank and had it out range my lock before I could get my 3rd lock, and it takes far more than a single clip to kill any shield tank with even a MLT hardner and no skills into them. 2 MLT hardners is enough to keep maxed swarms (not necessarily on a minmando, haven't used one at max level yet so I don't know) from even breaking a MLT shield tank's rep cycle. Adding a warning that you are targeted would of course have to be balanced out by swarm tweaks, but at the very least it would help make up for swarm rendering issues and visibility due to draw distance. And then the other voice in my head says 'I get no indicator when a Thales is targeting my 265,000 ISK AV suit, or when a forge sniper across the map is eyeballing me, or when someone is lining up an OB above my head, or when a squad of scouts is sneaking up on me from behind with a shotgun...' ...but I'm trying to ignore him for now. The point is that there are issues with the swarm launcher, and the easiest way of dealing with them appears to be adding a locking indicator, even if there is a bit of a delay in hearing it, any indicator is better than the current state of things. That said, there are issues against the swarm launcher that need to be addressed as well and with the inclusion of the locking indicator there will need to be a rework of ranges and perhaps even how they fire. My favored method would be to make it so that up to 150m, all 4 swarms fire, 3 swarms fire up to 200, 2 swarms up to 250 and one swarm for anything beyond 250. This lets swarms AV from further away with reduced damage, but also makes them better for closer engagements than at range while letting swarms chip off health from vehicles trying to speed away or support other AVers from afar. Maybe make this the assault variant, better for chasing faster vehicles. Possibly faster missiles with less kickback when hitting dropships just to keep things a bit more balanced. Possibly make the specialist variant into a breach with only 100m range, both lock and flight, but way more damage, faster lock and only one missile, or alternatively make it one missile dumbfire, massive damage, miniscule blast radius, no different than the PLC technically except it shoots straight and the missile is a bit faster, perhaps with a slight spiral instead of an ar that can be calculated for. Maybe even one shot clip like the PLC..... ....but that's just the other voice trying to force his way out.... think I should go feed him soon, his posting gets snarky when he's hungry. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2147	Posted - 2015.01.29 15:40:00 - [15] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: ^honestly Baal, I'd be against the 'less missiles fired' simply because it would screw with using a swarm optimally. And it turns swarms back into things that cover multiple objectives, even if they don't do it well. I'm not fond of the thought of returning to 1.6 where no matter where I am on the map, swarms will constantly be flying after me from rooftops. There needs to be a reliable way to flush rats off rooftops. I prefer my AV brawling, bloody and risky. Forge snipers on towers are entirely too difficult to dislodge in my opinion. Even a one shot hybrid OB drop on their heads. Same with swarms. It's a pain in the ass to do the setup to get up there but you can effectively dig in like a tick once you do. Forcing more ground fights or having LADDERS to campable rooftops would be amazing. In a perfect world there would be ladders everywhere, equipment wouldn't be glitchable into objects, rooftop camping would be easily delt with and there would be no draw distance or rendering issues for AV projectiles. As things stand, and considering the constraints under which we have to work, adding a sound prompt and adjusting the swarms make a the most sense in my view. Sure, you can get pecked at by swarms from across the map again, but at 1/4 damage, meaning they are accomplishing nothing more than a guy shooting an infantry player with an SMG from 80m would be. That wouldn't even break the shield repair cycle on a soma, but it WOULD allow the swarmer to engage with a vehicle it has already begun to fight but is escaping. Flight distance wouldn't change, so you could lock and not even be able to get a hit, but being able to lock as a fatty in a LAV barrels towards you would be VERY satisfying sisince as it is if you can lock, you're too late. At work now, will respond more later Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.