1. You always sort out vehicles and there fits first and AV is always left last because vehicles can exist without AV but not the other way around

2. I can say the same thing since you are trying to force AV into a HAV only process where even HAVs are far from finished

I can't really add too much numbers wise, but one thing I would like to see is some tweaks to movement penalties correlated to added magnification on FG.
BFG, high damage with terrible charge and you're locked in place so much higher magnification, I'm not saying SR level or anything that silly but some payoff to being a sitting duck.
FG, honestly I think is in a decent place, reduced movement but you can hold a charge so it balances out, I would like to see at least marginal magnifaction thogh.
AFG, reduce movement penalty by half at least, no magnification.

^I'm not an avid PLC user I just squad with the guy who came in 3rd for PLC kills during officer event. I don't think having 'dps' similar to or potentially even higher than an AFG would be 'broken' due to the skill required for use.

I would also agree that lock time is an issue for the swarm launcher. I would also say that direct damage per shot is a bit low for the forge gun. Breach should be highest damage per shot, assault should be highest dps, std should be somewhere in between.

The PLC's charge time + reload speed determines the ROF, 0.375 is the charge time at proto ( 0.5 x (1-25%) = 0.375)

Despite having ~400 more DPS, the engagement range is literally half of what the Forge Gun is. Given how CCP's weapon philosophy is [Range <-> DPS] this is balanced.

As a tank hater I would not be against this but I would like either increased ammo supply or further reduced efficiency of the vehicles main blaster

An increase in the distance you can get a lock might also balance lower dps

1. Missile turret is made for high alpha and the SL in uprising could hit 3k per volley from 6missiles

2. If the missile turret did any less then why pick that over the rail?

Let's assume we gave the SL an increased lock-on-time (~2.5 secs) while increasing lock-on range (~250 m) and adjusting for DPS. Would it then not infringe on the purpose of the FG?

Other than that I do think the PLC should be the 0-75 meter AV weapon of choice. For that it mainly needs a direct damage buff of about 30%.

But if swarms have full range, wouldn't that means swarms can control a great distance, rendering an entire 400m sphere vehicle-less?

Or am i understanding you wrong breakin?

What about increasing the amount of time it takes for swarms to update and reducing the rate that they turn? Ie make them clumsier. I don't think this would change too much for ground game as it's not terribly hard to get them to smash into cover etc, but it could make worlds of difference for air.

Although it is out of the scope of your post, HAV/AV "balance" can't be achieved without changing the expectations of vehicle users. If they pay 500K for a vehicle and can only make 150K a match they understandably think that they should rarely be killed. You can't balance around that, they must be OP to achieve that. The price of well fitted vehicles should drop drastically, and they should expect to be roughly equivalent to a proto dropsuit in survivability.

Second, the "swarm problem" is less a problem with swarms themselves and more a problem of how easy it is to fit a SL at a SD and then go back to whatever. Remove this ability and only let those in dedicated swarm fits have them and almost all the problems are solved. Increased turn radius for swarms against DS is in order. A small change in profile damage making them more effective against shields and less effective against armor seems like it would help the armor/shield imbalance. Forge guns remain Ok, but with the Gunnloggi being prominent struggles. I personally found that BW eliminated my ability to play forge. I do not camp with the blues, I would set up nests in unlikely spots to ambush vehicles. This is no longer possible. If I play forge I spend the whole match looking for a hive.

Small turrets need some love across the board. Large Missile turrets seem to need some toning down.

What is needed is some data to look at to see how things are actually performing. Tankers say blasters are useless against infantry now, as infantry it seems to me that they are still overperforming. Who is right? The data knows.

Without it we are all just throwing darts with our bias blinders on.

I'm getting on dust now, if you guys would like to squad up/sync against each other for in game data?

If it's hardcoded, i hope they (CCP) used a constant. If they used code conventions you'll see a constant (ALL CAPS) at declaration.

Haven't read the whole thread yet but I want to talk about doing something to the standard forge variant to give people a reason to use it over assault. I was thinking maybe let people actually store a charge without holding r1? Faster projectile speed? Something, I dunno.

The assault forge gun should be weaker than the standard version. I understand it's not a big difference but... It's an assault weapon (lower damage, higher rof) it shouldn't be both stronger and quicker charge.

That's just a thought though.

Works out.
In the sense of stronger tanks, does that mean stronger dropships? in the sense of slots, ehp or both?

Somebody break out a stopwatch and a youtube clip, I've ran swarms since closed beta and I've not been able to fire swarms that fast since pre 1.7..... when did this happen? Because when I fire, at all maxed swarm skills, it's nearly 2 seconds just to lock, then you have to wait about 1.5 seconds before you can lock again. If you press the lock button again too fast it does nothing.

You know I've been behind you on AV since we used to bash balance over Mr. Zitro's head daily, but 3 shots in under 3.5 seconds? ....lets just say I've personally not managed that stat on the best of days.... Do you have a video of this feat?

Does the math include the time you are releasing a volley and the down time it takes before you can make a lock again?

I trust your math, but I'm not sure it's all inclusive. I will be testing this later just to be sure.

I'm not certain of the exact value either, but my partner and I just finished recording a video for this. Our best attempt at firing them as fast as we could begins:

(exact times pulled from the video editor)

01:36:00 Start first lock
01:37:73 First lock complete
01:38:60 First swarm finishes firing

01:40:93 Second lock completes
01:41:63 Second swarm finishes firing

01:44:53 Third lock completes
01:45:47 Third swarm finishes firing

This was at 170ish meters. Between the start of the first lock and firing the last lock is a lot more time than 3.15 seconds. In fact, it takes longer than 3.15 seconds from the start of the first lock to the end of the second lock. Even without the milisecond data from the editor you can easily tell that it takes longer than 3.15 seconds to even lock the second volley, let alone lock and fire the two shots.

Also, my partner shooting at me in this video has Prof. 4 swarms and was using a STD 'Dren' swarm launcher with no damage mods, and the tank I'm in is a MLT Soma with 2 MLT BPO heavy armor repairs, a MLT scanner and a MLT fuel injector if you are curious about the damage I was taking.

I would also like to note that the poor blue who's dropship was killed in this video at just after 2:50 (and who later attacked my partner once or twice) was sent 2 million ISK for his trouble.

Lastly, my partner wishes to apologize for the video quality. And she say's if you don't like it, 'Up yours'.

Basically if you knock off the last 0.47 seconds, call it a margin for human error if you like, you still take 9 seconds from the start of the first lock to when the last swarm leaves the barrel. That's still well over 2 times as long as the proposed 3.15, and it's just over 3 times as long if you don't knock off that last 0.47s. Non variant swarms, OP 5. Also note how even though I'm still a huge target in plain view in that tank, an easy target for a forge or even a PLC if I don't move, 3 steps back and you can't even lock anymore.

there is nothing fishy, most pilots are just whiny wimps exaggerating.

with fire interval, burst interval, lock on delay (not lock on time which is also additionally to that) you will at best fire a volley per 2,55s and that is not accounting any UI delays we currently have. that is 489 base dps with proto swarms before reload and 326 base dps factoring in reload. his video shows it perfectly how reality is vs the blurred vision of whiny pilots.

in comparision:
PLC has 0.5s fire interval additionally to charge up. with max reload skill and proto PLC that would be ~294 base dps.

forge guns has 480 dps without reload and 365 dps with reload. it appears to have no fire interval at all, only charge up.

in short: swarms are currently, performance wise, in line with all other AV options we have

if you dont fit your ship properly, dont use your modules and dont react accordingly you die, who would guess.

beside that, if swarm would kill you in that "scrub pilot scenario" then a forge would too.

^honestly Baal, I'd be against the 'less missiles fired' simply because it would screw with using a swarm optimally. And it turns swarms back into things that cover multiple objectives, even if they don't do it well.

I'm not fond of the thought of returning to 1.6 where no matter where I am on the map, swarms will constantly be flying after me from rooftops.

It's not 1/4 dmg when enemy has been beaten back from [objective] and 3-8 players with nothing to shoot switch over to swarms. That still ends up being a lethal threat albeit a technically inefficient one.

I hate autocorrect.