DUST Search - Why isn't the AR better than the ACR at CQC?

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:

Fizzer XCIV wrote:

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

Francois Sanchez wrote:

Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare.
The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered.

I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again.

And yet the SCR used to overperform by quite a bit according to Rattati's stats, and that thing has a +20/-20 profile at the height of armor tanking.

Thats because even now it outDPSes the CR against armor, and shields are LOL...

Its a brokenly powerful weapon, and the only thing that compares is the TAR, which doesn't even have as good handling as it.

ScR Armor DPS: 572
CR Armor DPS: 640.4

Nope.

Hmm...let me double check that.

I know for certain it outDPSed the Cr before the RoF nerf, and I was fairly certain it still outDPSed it now.

But if the ScR has that much armor DPS, wouldn't it make sense for the CR to have that much shield DPS, considering its a shorter ranged weapon?

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DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7154	Posted - 2015.01.19 17:20:00 - [91] - Quote I would suggest giving higher damage within 15m. Right now the ARis decent at mid range and mediocre at CQC. That should be changed. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Jathniel G I A N T 1439	Posted - 2015.01.19 17:23:00 - [92] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... It's the damage profiles. And the armor meta. It's not that the AR is weak or needs something, it's that shield suits suck ass right now. So everyone is running some sort of armor suit atm, the very thing the AR is weaker against. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=187731&find=unread If we give shielders proper balances, then more people would run them, and the AR would have more proper prey. The current numbers on the AR are extremely high right now, and would have been intolerable to the community just a year and half ago. But we are at this point where people are demanding that anti-shield weapons be good against armor, because thats all they are facing in matches. If we keep pushing buffs at it, we will break it. Retired
Myron Kundera Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 149	Posted - 2015.01.19 17:31:00 - [93] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... You need to buff ROF or optimal range on the AR or change the Gallente Assault bonus to ROF or optimal range per level. "Greed, the forgotten mental disease" "Spray and pray makes my day" "Will use proto gear in self defense"
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2307	Posted - 2015.01.19 17:33:00 - [94] - Quote Myron Kundera wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... You need to buff ROF or optimal range on the AR or change the Gallente Assault bonus to ROF or optimal range per level. Wat? Home at Last <3
Myron Kundera Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 149	Posted - 2015.01.19 17:37:00 - [95] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Myron Kundera wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... You need to buff ROF or optimal range on the AR or change the Gallente Assault bonus to ROF or optimal range per level. Wat? the fox say? "Greed, the forgotten mental disease" "Spray and pray makes my day" "Will use proto gear in self defense"
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 5621	Posted - 2015.01.19 19:35:00 - [96] - Quote Myron Kundera wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... You need to buff ROF or optimal range on the AR or change the Gallente Assault bonus to ROF or optimal range per level. That specific change to the Gallente Assault has been proposed since ancient times, but we haven't seen it happen.
Nirwanda Vaughns 1238	Posted - 2015.01.19 21:26:00 - [97] - Quote depends what you're coming up against. if its a heavy shield tanker the ACR is screwed and the AR performs better and vice-versa. all depends on what suit you have them on. if you put the weapon to sthe suit that they're built for, BAR on Gal Assault, ACR on a min that will also change how they behave. too high shields htough and my republic ACR with 85 rounds and max skills can still struggle to break even a C-I's shields Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 121	Posted - 2015.01.19 21:49:00 - [98] - Quote Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: I don't understand why the assault variant (the base rifle for the gallente) does not have the highest DPS of the plasma rifles. In fact it's the complete opposite where the breach does for some reason, the breach variant should have the lowest DPS, longest firing time, probably a scope and more range. Then it would be the RR for the gallente (as originally intended) and wouldn't step on the regular AR's toes, leaving the AR more unique. It goes Tactical, burst, breach, assault. The breach is higher than the assault by about 3 dps at all tiers. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7909	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:37:00 - [99] - Quote As others have said in this thread: Range > DPS HMG > AR Trying to fit an AR in the world of Shotguns and HMGs was a problem from the start, especially considering that Cloak Scouts benefit the shotgun so well and Sentinels with their extreme amounts of HP benefit high DPS HMGs. The questions that have to be asked are: If the Shotgun and HMG are the kings of CQC, and the AR is designed for CQC... Then what meaningful role does it truly play? What can it offer that other rifles do not when it's DPS closely matches theirs but falls short of range and beneficial damage profiles? What function does this weapon serve that we do not already have? But please ignore anything I say as I have been using the AR since closed beta and clearly anything I say is extremely biased toward wanting an OP weapon. Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 539	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:46:00 - [100] - Quote Blue tag posts. Conversation involving math and about 6-7 people interested in it devolves into post with tons of random posts with anecdotal evidence and complete lack of evidence + random suggestions and jumps to completely unrelated topics. (it's a thread about CRs vs Ars, but lets talk about how the ScR or the HmG compares...anecdotally of course.) Hilarity ensues.

Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 5630	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:51:00 - [101] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Blue tag posts. Conversation involving math and about 6-7 people interested in it devolves into post with tons of random posts with anecdotal evidence and complete lack of evidence + random suggestions and jumps to completely unrelated topics. (it's a thread about CRs vs Ars, but lets talk about how the ScR or the HmG compares...anecdotally of course.) Hilarity ensues. Hell yeah! GD rules!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3566	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:09:00 - [102] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Francois Sanchez wrote: Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare. The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered. I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. And yet the SCR used to overperform by quite a bit according to Rattati's stats, and that thing has a +20/-20 profile at the height of armor tanking. Thats because even now it outDPSes the CR against armor, and shields are LOL... Its a brokenly powerful weapon, and the only thing that compares is the TAR, which doesn't even have as good handling as it. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2318	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:12:00 - [103] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Francois Sanchez wrote: Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare. The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered. I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. And yet the SCR used to overperform by quite a bit according to Rattati's stats, and that thing has a +20/-20 profile at the height of armor tanking. Thats because even now it outDPSes the CR against armor, and shields are LOL... Its a brokenly powerful weapon, and the only thing that compares is the TAR, which doesn't even have as good handling as it. ScR Armor DPS: 572 CR Armor DPS: 640.4 Nope. Home at Last <3
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3566	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:14:00 - [104] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Francois Sanchez wrote: Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare. The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered. I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. And yet the SCR used to overperform by quite a bit according to Rattati's stats, and that thing has a +20/-20 profile at the height of armor tanking. Thats because even now it outDPSes the CR against armor, and shields are LOL... Its a brokenly powerful weapon, and the only thing that compares is the TAR, which doesn't even have as good handling as it. ScR Armor DPS: 572 CR Armor DPS: 640.4 Nope. Hmm...let me double check that. I know for certain it outDPSed the Cr before the RoF nerf, and I was fairly certain it still outDPSed it now. But if the ScR has that much armor DPS, wouldn't it make sense for the CR to have that much shield DPS, considering its a shorter ranged weapon? "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2319	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:26:00 - [105] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Francois Sanchez wrote: Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare. The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered. I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. And yet the SCR used to overperform by quite a bit according to Rattati's stats, and that thing has a +20/-20 profile at the height of armor tanking. Thats because even now it outDPSes the CR against armor, and shields are LOL... Its a brokenly powerful weapon, and the only thing that compares is the TAR, which doesn't even have as good handling as it. ScR Armor DPS: 572 CR Armor DPS: 640.4 Nope. Hmm...let me double check that. I know for certain it outDPSed the Cr before the RoF nerf, and I was fairly certain it still outDPSed it now. But if the ScR has that much armor DPS, wouldn't it make sense for the CR to have that much shield DPS, considering its a shorter ranged weapon? Well its not like the ScR ever actually does that much DPS due to it being semiauto. You're more likely to actually see about 400-455 Armor DPS, as most people usually fire at around 7-8 rounds per second, on average, instead of the full 10 at all times. In the same vein, you are also unlikley to see the same full DPS out of a CR. I'd expect about 500-550 Armor DPS out of a CR. Home at Last <3
Petra 222 SoM Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 34	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:27:00 - [106] - Quote This is interesting... I have found my AR's to be very strong and effective right now, maybe even more so than my combat rifles. also a big plus is that some of the best sidearms have armor profiles: smg, boltpistol, flyalock, and are a perfect match with an AR. but shiiiit I'll take a buff to the AR lol. Can't believe my BrAR/BurstAR may be getting even stronger! this game is nuts.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7161	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:42:00 - [107] - Quote Petra 222 SoM wrote: This is interesting... I have found my AR's to be very strong and effective right now, maybe even more so than my combat rifles. also a big plus is that some of the best sidearms have armor profiles: smg, boltpistol, flyalock, and are a perfect match with an AR. but shiiiit I'll take a buff to the AR lol. Can't believe my BrAR/BurstAR may be getting even stronger! this game is nuts. We are not discussing the Burst AR, Burst AR or Tactical AR. We are talking about the standard AR. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Petra 222 SoM Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 34	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:45:00 - [108] - Quote oh ok, damn Aztec crushing my dreamz man.
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 677	Posted - 2015.01.20 01:18:00 - [109] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... It's the shortest range weapon, yet is shield oriented -- it's always going to struggle when you hit the barrier of armor. And that's what happens with the AR -- you run into armor tankers and die. Personally, I think it needs a bit of a DPS buff (or a perhaps +5/-5 damage profile). The only way I can really get it to work right now is to use it with a speed tanked gal assault and engage at a distance where hipfire is accurate for me and not my opponent (15-ish meter)...or just pull out the ARR with the much better armor profile and, for me, simply a better overall performer. But really, the AR is not that far off, IMO. This^^^ Got both AR and RR prof 5. Also got that useless sharpshooter 5. (Waste of points) The ARR out performs AR on a gal assault all day! The range and dmg is perfect. The Tac AR needs jesus, and the burst is probably the better rifle of the bunch for flanking engagements. "Anybody order chaos?"
Park Yoon-Hee Old-Type 3	Posted - 2015.01.20 01:41:00 - [110] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... how's about making it a hybrid weapon again why give a blaster weapon which is suppose to be good at hurtING armored and shielded people but it's bonus is toward shields it needs a armor and shield bonus and bonus toward damage up at 0-25 meters

deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1792	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:51:00 - [111] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Just give the militia the same stats as the Krin and then scale up like normal from there. I can assure you this will lead to use
thehellisgoingon MONSTER SYNERGY 130	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:56:00 - [112] - Quote I use AR up close with a sub machine gun to finish them off. It works great against shield. It struggles with armor. 70 in a clip is nice.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7161	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:05:00 - [113] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Just give the militia the same stats as the Krin and then scale up like normal from there. I can assure you this will lead to use That would be OP. That much damage and accuracy at militia level would be broken. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16702	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:10:00 - [114] - Quote More and more I am becoming confused as to the reasons we as players continue to advocated tiered weapons...... We currently have 5 Tiers of turrets favouring those who can afford and use Prototype weapons.......as opposed to unlocking side grades and variations of weapons all with roughly similar functions but unique mechanics and aspects. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7161	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:30:00 - [115] - Quote True Adamance wrote: More and more I am becoming confused as to the reasons we as players continue to advocated tiered weapons...... We currently have 5 Tiers of turrets favouring those who can afford and use Prototype weapons.......as opposed to unlocking side grades and variations of weapons all with roughly similar functions but unique mechanics and aspects. There are two reasons for tiers: -This game is free to play - We don't have enough weapons for this game to not have tiers. Also we do not currently have the resources to make new weapons(at least not great ones) and balance them. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2320	Posted - 2015.01.20 04:09:00 - [116] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: True Adamance wrote: More and more I am becoming confused as to the reasons we as players continue to advocated tiered weapons...... We currently have 5 Tiers of turrets favouring those who can afford and use Prototype weapons.......as opposed to unlocking side grades and variations of weapons all with roughly similar functions but unique mechanics and aspects. There are two reasons for tiers: -This game is free to play - We don't have enough weapons for this game to not have tiers. Also we do not currently have the resources to make new weapons(at least not great ones) and balance them. This game has a lot of weapon variety. How many different guns do we have? 2 Heavy 5 Sidearms 3 Grenades 10 Light 20 weapons total... And that's not counting the variants, which bump that number up to 42 total different weapon variants, with all of those variants being significantly different barring the Assault SMGs/HMGs and the Tactical ScP. So 39. If we were to fill out all the missing variants and cut out the redundant ones, we would have well over 70 significantly different weapons. That's a lot. Home at Last <3
Oceltot Mortalis 51	Posted - 2015.01.20 04:47:00 - [117] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Maybe your Range to DPS ratio underestimates the importance of range? Could also be that the Gal Assault has a... underwhelming bonus. This right here. In what universe does a military send their troops out with a weapon than tickles people past 60 meters? In life, I have this to regret. That too often, when I acquired ISK, I did not have enough of it. -everyone in EVE, ever
Oceltot Mortalis 51	Posted - 2015.01.20 05:06:00 - [118] - Quote Also I think if it's range is going to stay as short as it is, then it needs a +5/-5 profile. Effective range traded for effective application. In life, I have this to regret. That too often, when I acquired ISK, I did not have enough of it. -everyone in EVE, ever
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7163	Posted - 2015.01.20 05:08:00 - [119] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: True Adamance wrote: More and more I am becoming confused as to the reasons we as players continue to advocated tiered weapons...... We currently have 5 Tiers of turrets favouring those who can afford and use Prototype weapons.......as opposed to unlocking side grades and variations of weapons all with roughly similar functions but unique mechanics and aspects. There are two reasons for tiers: -This game is free to play - We don't have enough weapons for this game to not have tiers. Also we do not currently have the resources to make new weapons(at least not great ones) and balance them. This game has a lot of weapon variety. How many different guns do we have? 2 Heavy 5 Sidearms 3 Grenades 10 Light 20 weapons total... And that's not counting the variants, which bump that number up to 42 total different weapon variants, with all of those variants being significantly different barring the Assault SMGs/HMGs and the Tactical ScP. So 39. If we were to fill out all the missing variants and cut out the redundant ones, we would have well over 70 significantly different weapons. That's a lot. Yeah, I guess I used the wrong wording. We have a lot of weapons NOW, but we didn't initially. It took a while to get where we are. Now it is somewhat too late since the Dev team is too small to get rid of tiers. Because when we do it will open up a box of troubles and I'm not sure Dust should do that so late in its cycle. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14518	Posted - 2015.01.20 05:47:00 - [120] - Quote Oceltot Mortalis wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Maybe your Range to DPS ratio underestimates the importance of range? Could also be that the Gal Assault has a... underwhelming bonus. This right here. In what universe does a military send their troops out with a weapon than tickles people past 60 meters? The Gallente of course! We use LOL speed to close the distance and then chew the enemy up. Problem is, our engineers forgot the "LOL speed" when transitioning from space combat to ground combat. Oceltot Mortalis wrote: Anyway, Gallente suits need to be faster/kin cats to high slots, and the Gallente assault bonus needs to be changed. Every suit in the game can effectively use the hip fire of a Assault rifle, and there is no reason to make it more accurate than it already is. Maybe an increase in rate of fire as the trigger is held? Nothing crazy fast as it is already pretty quick, but just something that is synergistic with the rifle. And similar to the laser rifle trigger-held-damage-scaling. Or they could make the hip fire bonus something like 50%. 25% is pathetic when you have a skill that does just that. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave



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