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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2278
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Posted - 2015.01.17 19:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
High RoF
Armor Damage.
Similar raw DPS.
The main advantage of ARs are their massive magazine sizes now.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2278
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Posted - 2015.01.17 19:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:High RoF
Armor Damage.
Similar raw DPS.
The main advantage of ARs are their massive magazine sizes now. I can usually kill three people with an ACR mag and four when I use it on the Minmatar Assault, but I can barely kill two people with the AR mag.
:/
How?
Burger King damage per mag: 1416.916 (1771.145 w/ Minassault V)
Gecko 38 damage per mag: 2271.15
And the AR has better accuracy overall. Both on the hip and ADS.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2278
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Posted - 2015.01.17 21:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:High RoF
Armor Damage.
Similar raw DPS.
The main advantage of ARs are their massive magazine sizes now. Which makes them better at 1v2 than a ACR could hope to be even with Minassault. Unless the ACR is a Min Assault with a skill greater than our equal to 2 in his suit.
AR still has more damage per mag, which is the stat that matters...
The actual amount of bullets in a mag is largely irrelevant so long as the damage per mag is high.
AR has the highest damage per mag in the Assault, Tactical, and Burst rifle variants. The only exception is the RR having higher damage per mag than the Breach AR.
Even when you account for Amassault/Minassault.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2279
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Posted - 2015.01.18 00:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Atiim wrote:Because you're not great with the AR?
Against Shield users the AR is much better than the ACR (an extra 130 DPS) but against Armor users the ACR is better by only 94 DPS. Given how the DPS losses and gains are in favor of the AR, your complaint is unfounded. My theory is that the high RoF allows you to slow down targets more therfore making it easier to shoot your target the longer you shoot at them. It is a less exaggerated version of what happens with the HMG. The rate of fire might be high enough to make even shield suits very slow. Then again I am unsure what determines how much each shot slows you down: whether it's just RoF or if damage is a factor.
They removed that.
Slowdown doesn't happen anymore.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2279
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Posted - 2015.01.18 00:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:I can't comment on whether the ACR is better than the AR or not. But I notice people pulling out damage per mag equations. Yet no one took the time to point out how much time it takes to empty an ACR clip or how much time it takes to empty an AR clip. I would think that it would matter wouldn't it?
Its a largely irrelevant stat.
In this case however, the AR has a longer time.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2300
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Posted - 2015.01.19 01:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Well, I'm not sure it is irrelevant. I mean, so Lets say:
Gun X: Has 1500 damage in the clip.
Gun Y: Has 1900 damage in the clip.
Then you'd say that gun X isn't as good as Gun Y by that alone.
Now Say that Gun X can empty that 1500 damage in 1 second, whereas Gun Y takes 2 seconds. I mean, we talk about DPS often for a reason right? So, how much faster can you empty a CR clip than an AR clip?
It doesn't matter. Its the DPS and DpM that matters in this scenario, which the AR has more of both.
An AR outputs more damage per second, for a larger amount of time.
The stats that really matter are DPS and Damage per mag/heat (DpM).
AR DPS: 412
ACR DPS: 397.6
AR DpM: 2163
ACR DpM: 1352
As you can see, the AR both outputs damage at a faster rate, and can output much more damage before it has to stop.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2300
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Posted - 2015.01.19 02:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Imp Smash wrote:Well, I'm not sure it is irrelevant. I mean, so Lets say:
Gun X: Has 1500 damage in the clip.
Gun Y: Has 1900 damage in the clip.
Then you'd say that gun X isn't as good as Gun Y by that alone.
Now Say that Gun X can empty that 1500 damage in 1 second, whereas Gun Y takes 2 seconds. I mean, we talk about DPS often for a reason right? So, how much faster can you empty a CR clip than an AR clip? It doesn't matter. Its the DPS and DpM that matters in this scenario, which the AR has more of both. An AR outputs more damage per second, for a larger amount of time. The stats that really matter are DPS and Damage per mag/heat (DpM). AR DPS: 412 ACR DPS: 397.6 AR DpM: 2163 ACR DpM: 1352 As you can see, the AR both outputs damage at a faster rate, and can output much more damage before it has to stop. Fair enough. So you don't know how exactly fast an AR can empty the clip and how fast the AR can empty the clip then but have an idea? I would assume by the DpM you listed and the DPS you listed that the ACR empties at about 2x the speed of the AR then?
The AR takes 5.25s to empty.
The ACR takes 3.4s to empty.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2300
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Posted - 2015.01.19 02:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Atiim wrote:Because you're not great with the AR?
Against Shield users the AR is much better than the ACR (an extra 130 DPS) but against Armor users the ACR is better by only 94 DPS. Given how the DPS losses and gains are in favor of the AR, your complaint is unfounded. My theory is that the high RoF allows you to slow down targets more therfore making it easier to shoot your target the longer you shoot at them. It is a less exaggerated version of what happens with the HMG. The rate of fire might be high enough to make even shield suits very slow. Then again I am unsure what determines how much each shot slows you down: whether it's just RoF or if damage is a factor. They removed that. Slowdown doesn't happen anymore. And it was a stat called 'Momentum'. Rail Weapons had the highest, Projectiles had the second highest, Blaster took third, and Lasers had the least. Are you sure? Haven't you ever found it hard to move while being shot by the HMG?
I'm almost positive. I remember that a lot of people didn't like the effect, and that CCP did something with it. I might be assuming too much by saying they removed it, as they might have just reduced it...
They also might have only done something to the HMG, as well I suppose.
Anecdotal bits ahead. I have found it hard to move, but only with the HMG, and even then I haven't noticed anything since they changed it in some way.
I really wish that we could get some real stat databases for us to access. In game. This is the kind of stuff we need to know if CCP ever wants extremely helpful feedback...
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2304
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Posted - 2015.01.19 14:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
As others have said, I don't think its a problem of the AR underperforming as much as it is a problem of the HMG completely blowing it away in its own ranges, while also bekng a very popular and easy weapon to do.
The ARs stats suggest that is is fine, and that's its a meta problem.
I'd say avoid any more hard buffs to it.
See what you can do to evict HMGs from being the absolute be-all end-all for CQC combat. I personally like the idea that was posted in Features and Ideas a few days ago, where the HMG user slows down while firing, like with the Forge Gun.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2307
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Posted - 2015.01.19 17:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Myron Kundera wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going...  You need to buff ROF or optimal range on the AR or change the Gallente Assault bonus to ROF or optimal range per level. 
Wat?
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2318
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Posted - 2015.01.20 00:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare.
The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered.
I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. And yet the SCR used to overperform by quite a bit according to Rattati's stats, and that thing has a +20/-20 profile at the height of armor tanking. Thats because even now it outDPSes the CR against armor, and shields are LOL... Its a brokenly powerful weapon, and the only thing that compares is the TAR, which doesn't even have as good handling as it.
ScR Armor DPS: 572
CR Armor DPS: 640.4
Nope.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2319
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Posted - 2015.01.20 00:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Francois Sanchez wrote:Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare.
The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered.
I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. And yet the SCR used to overperform by quite a bit according to Rattati's stats, and that thing has a +20/-20 profile at the height of armor tanking. Thats because even now it outDPSes the CR against armor, and shields are LOL... Its a brokenly powerful weapon, and the only thing that compares is the TAR, which doesn't even have as good handling as it. ScR Armor DPS: 572 CR Armor DPS: 640.4 Nope. Hmm...let me double check that. I know for certain it outDPSed the Cr before the RoF nerf, and I was fairly certain it still outDPSed it now. But if the ScR has that much armor DPS, wouldn't it make sense for the CR to have that much shield DPS, considering its a shorter ranged weapon?
Well its not like the ScR ever actually does that much DPS due to it being semiauto.
You're more likely to actually see about 400-455 Armor DPS, as most people usually fire at around 7-8 rounds per second, on average, instead of the full 10 at all times.
In the same vein, you are also unlikley to see the same full DPS out of a CR. I'd expect about 500-550 Armor DPS out of a CR.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2320
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Posted - 2015.01.20 04:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:True Adamance wrote:More and more I am becoming confused as to the reasons we as players continue to advocated tiered weapons......
We currently have 5 Tiers of turrets favouring those who can afford and use Prototype weapons.......as opposed to unlocking side grades and variations of weapons all with roughly similar functions but unique mechanics and aspects.
There are two reasons for tiers: -This game is free to play - We don't have enough weapons for this game to not have tiers. Also we do not currently have the resources to make new weapons(at least not great ones) and balance them.
This game has a lot of weapon variety.
How many different guns do we have?
2 Heavy
5 Sidearms
3 Grenades
10 Light
20 weapons total...
And that's not counting the variants, which bump that number up to 42 total different weapon variants, with all of those variants being significantly different barring the Assault SMGs/HMGs and the Tactical ScP. So 39.
If we were to fill out all the missing variants and cut out the redundant ones, we would have well over 70 significantly different weapons. That's a lot.
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