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Why isn't the AR better than the ACR at CQC?

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Varoth Drac Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 550	Posted - 2015.01.19 08:28:00 - [61] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I'd maybe wait a bit. It does seem to be getting more popular. Just yesterday I added some to my logi fits. If you have to change anything, maybe look at the Gallente assault bonus. Is 25% dispersion reduction enough?
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1843	Posted - 2015.01.19 08:37:00 - [62] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I hope you are joking, tried the ARs with a respec and they are all beasts now. I was getting top KDR with them in FW. if there is anything wrong about gallente tech then it is the fact that gallente suits have the same mobility stats as caldari. gallente should be able to close the gap faster to apply their DPS up close.
Francois Sanchez Prima Gallicus 211	Posted - 2015.01.19 09:03:00 - [63] - Quote Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare. The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered. I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 804	Posted - 2015.01.19 09:08:00 - [64] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare. The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered. I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. this is true. but its also true that gallente need a way to compensate for the short range of the AR. they need to control range to apply AR damage.
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14492	Posted - 2015.01.19 09:21:00 - [65] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I hope you are joking, tried the ARs with a respec and they are all beasts now. I was getting top KDR with them in FW. if there is anything wrong about gallente tech then it is the fact that gallente suits have the same mobility stats as caldari. gallente should be able to close the gap faster to apply their DPS up close. That is my theory. We are lacking in mobility. Putting two kin cats on a Gallente Assault MASSIVELY boosts the combat effectiveness of the Duvolle, but considering you can do the same on a Caldari suit and sacrifice much less of your main tank, the Duvolle works better on the Cal Assault. Same for Min Assault, their stamina regen combined with innate high speed makes them better with the Duvolle than the Gal Assault. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
Francois Sanchez Prima Gallicus 211	Posted - 2015.01.19 09:24:00 - [66] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Francois Sanchez wrote: Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare. The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered. I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. this is true. but its also true that gallente need a way to compensate for the short range of the AR. they need to control range to apply AR damage. To me that's more a suit problem than a gun problem. And also if you play smartly with your gal assault you can easily be in good range except on a few maps. Getting close is quite easy when you've played scout before 1.8, but being close leads to problems with the OP HMG
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14492	Posted - 2015.01.19 09:24:00 - [67] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Please Rattati don't buff it again, the gun is fine, it's more accurate, has more DPS, more damage per clip, better hit detection, this gun is working great. When you have a dual tanked suit (my Minmando has 412 shield and 406 armour), you realise how powerful the AR is, I prefer getting shot by a PRO ACR than by a GEK-38 AR. And if you have a shield oriented suit, the AR is a nightmare. The problem isn't the AR, it's the meta. People are armour tanking. You can't make an anti-shield weapon performs as well as an anti-armour weapon without making it completely overpowered. I really wonder why you think the AR needs a buff again. And yet the SCR used to overperform by quite a bit according to Rattati's stats, and that thing has a +20/-20 profile at the height of armor tanking. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 1569	Posted - 2015.01.19 10:14:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I think making things weaker and giving more rounds is goofy. You ruined a great side arm much the same way. Crush them
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 1569	Posted - 2015.01.19 10:16:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I think making things weaker and giving more rounds is goofy. You ruined a great side arm much the same way. Crush them
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 3723	Posted - 2015.01.19 10:52:00 - [70] - Quote Try to add more "sbundation" Situational awareness also known as passive scan. Minmatar omni-merc

Atom Heart Mother Nazionali Senza Filtro 146	Posted - 2015.01.19 10:56:00 - [71] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Pretty sure the CR will be nerfed then....no, all light weapons will so to meet AR specs... Hey, by the way. where is my third grenade gone?
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6585	Posted - 2015.01.19 11:04:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Slow down the rate of fire and buff the base hits. I am noticing more and more that higher RoF weapons have a more difficult time applying damage to targets. Aim assist helps but does not completely cure the phenomenon. It's noticable when using small blaster turrets and HMGs. Magsec also has the problem to a lesser extent. Aim assist is tge bandaid that reduces the issue. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
rpastry Dead Man's Game 259	Posted - 2015.01.19 11:13:00 - [73] - Quote as others have said its the most challenging to use effectively. more a suit buff needed than a gun buff. I wouldn't change base speed, seems anti-lore and illogical for an armour suit. maybe a stamina buff, or a PG buff? fitting buff for kincats? }:-) [Removed ASCII Art - CCP Logibro]
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1845	Posted - 2015.01.19 11:35:00 - [74] - Quote rpastry wrote: as others have said its the most challenging to use effectively. more a suit buff needed than a gun buff. I wouldn't change base speed, seems anti-lore and illogical for an armour suit. maybe a stamina buff, or a PG buff? fitting buff for kincats? }:-) stop pretending that you know something about eve lore. gallente stuff is supposed to be faster than caldari and amarr.
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14495	Posted - 2015.01.19 11:54:00 - [75] - Quote rpastry wrote: as others have said its the most challenging to use effectively. more a suit buff needed than a gun buff. I wouldn't change base speed, seems anti-lore and illogical for an armour suit. maybe a stamina buff, or a PG buff? fitting buff for kincats? }:-) Gallente ships in EVE are actually the second fastest after the Minmatar. Gallente also tend to fit Micro Warp Drives (Think kin cats only in high slots). These EAT capacitor which means you have to use them in bursts (in general, depending on how you make your fit), so Gallente tend to be uber fast but in bursts, meaning they close the distance and then rip you to shreds. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14495	Posted - 2015.01.19 11:56:00 - [76] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: rpastry wrote: as others have said its the most challenging to use effectively. more a suit buff needed than a gun buff. I wouldn't change base speed, seems anti-lore and illogical for an armour suit. maybe a stamina buff, or a PG buff? fitting buff for kincats? }:-) being fast has not much do to with "armor" or "shield". shield is not generated for free and shield generators are heavy. additionally it has nothing to do with eve lore. gallente is faster than amarr and caldari, simple as that, dust just for some reason does not follow this doctrine though. They just decided to go the lazy route and have Gallente mirror Caldari in stats. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 3719	Posted - 2015.01.19 12:29:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Only thing wrong with the AR is the dispersion....if that is even a problem. You need to buff the ACR. All of the shield weapons are getting buffed while the ACR (armor weapon) received a steep dispersion nerf. Hate not being rewarded when my crosshairs are on the enemy. Buff the dispersion to the ACR. Shield tanking is hard mode /period. > Check RND out here
Cavani1EE7 Murphys-Law 866	Posted - 2015.01.19 13:57:00 - [78] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Damage profile switched to vs armor? 10100111001 Shield tanking is hard mode /period. 10100111001
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1738	Posted - 2015.01.19 13:57:00 - [79] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... My analysis: Considerably higher damage is NOT the way to go - that is hard to balance and likely to break some suit balancing done. Instead, I propose hipfire being the key and AR given more clear advantage in that. Hipfire and strafing is most critical in close quarters. If other weapons have weaker hipfire accuracy/dispersion behavior, it automatically buffs the reliable guns. Pro-choice! For hazardous self-activated inertial dampeners! We want to live on the edge (((of MCC)))
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2304	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:09:00 - [80] - Quote As others have said, I don't think its a problem of the AR underperforming as much as it is a problem of the HMG completely blowing it away in its own ranges, while also bekng a very popular and easy weapon to do. The ARs stats suggest that is is fine, and that's its a meta problem. I'd say avoid any more hard buffs to it. See what you can do to evict HMGs from being the absolute be-all end-all for CQC combat. I personally like the idea that was posted in Features and Ideas a few days ago, where the HMG user slows down while firing, like with the Forge Gun. Home at Last <3

demonkiller 12 The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 450	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:23:00 - [81] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... a scope on the standard variant, whether optional or not I WANT A SCOPE
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 30	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:24:00 - [82] - Quote The ACR has fewer bullets and a higher ROF. It is an uzi so it doesn't have the capabilities and AR has at range. That is why it out performs the AR in CQC and should out perform the AR. I don't use the ACR because it is only effective for one range. Plus you run out of ammo so quickly you die reloading or looking for some ammo after you get a kill. Why do you need the AR to be effective every where? This is a game of balancing, so if you go with the AR expect to be middle of the road at all ranges. Next post will be why the AR is losing to the RR at long range. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
demonkiller 12 The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 450	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:25:00 - [83] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!?!?! Its the friggen FOTM right now, and you want to buff it??!?!?! hasnt been fotm since the breach shinaneganz and that was the breach not the AR itself
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 6754	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:36:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Rattati, what are you talking about? The AR and BAR are exception weapons! I don't even have the AR skills to V and I can straight up murder folks with this thing. Can you tell us what the service rifle numbers look like; Kills per Death, etc? Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley. @Ripley_Riley
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1556	Posted - 2015.01.19 15:26:00 - [85] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Nobody shield tanks but trust me when I'm in a Cal Assault, there is nothing that I don't want to face more than the ScR and AR. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 255	Posted - 2015.01.19 15:45:00 - [86] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Jack McReady wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I hope you are joking, tried the ARs with a respec and they are all beasts now. I was getting top KDR with them in FW. if there is anything wrong about gallente tech then it is the fact that gallente suits have the same mobility stats as caldari. gallente should be able to close the gap faster to apply their DPS up close. That is my theory. We are lacking in mobility. Putting two kin cats on a Gallente Assault MASSIVELY boosts the combat effectiveness of the Duvolle, but considering you can do the same on a Caldari suit and sacrifice much less of your main tank, the Duvolle works better on the Cal Assault. Same for Min Assault, their stamina regen combined with innate high speed makes them better with the Duvolle than the Gal Assault. The cal assault is not better than the gal assault with an AR, the damage mods you can stack on your gal assault really decreases the TTK against armour which is much needed. A cal assault using a kincat has to downgrade something i.e a shield extender/weapon/equipment to fit it, and will still lose to a gal assault in a 1v1 with both sides uses ARs. The cal assault will give you the longest TTK when using the AR. The min assault is the best with 2 damage mods on the AR and great speed and fairly decent HP.
Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 201	Posted - 2015.01.19 15:45:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I have played the AR since my beginning. Before the hotfixes you made, it was howful (between 1.8 and the hotfixes). For me, it's actually a good weapon, and very well-balanced (if we talk about the 800RPM one). The only thing (and that's why people thing it's UP) is that the Scrambler rifle (tactical) is so good, and is better as an anti-shield weapon (I think). Maybe improve the range, that's the only bad thing about this weapon... A ACr can kil people very easily at 65m, an ARr at 75m, same for the scrambler... But the assault rifle is good only up to 50m... Maybe improve it up to 55/60m, and it will make the difference Like a dream
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 120	Posted - 2015.01.19 16:03:00 - [88] - Quote The only variants of the assault plasma rifle that I enjoy using are the officer ones. While the Kalente has high DPS (nor rof or damage per shot specifically) the Krin and Baloc are the ones that really preform fore me. The krins barely does more damage than proto, but it has lower dispersion (closer to a combat rifle) and way better range (50m optimal and 85m effective) the balac also has that range profile. To me this suggests that range adjustments on the assault assault variant could use an adjustment. Perhaps giving it better optimal rang (50m puts it at the same gap between optimal and effective range as a ScR or RR) would help bolster its popularity. There is another factor to consider. The nearly identical DPS breach variant (3 more DPS than the assault) feels much better to use. This is because of its low kick/dispersion. Especially during hipfire. When ADS you can get headshots more easily due to the low kick, and then low dispersion makes strafe play easier. This is both why the Gal assaults complain about their skill (they have an identical damage variant that has low kick/dispersion so they don't feel a need to have more) and why the skill is so useful. It can improve other variants significantly. If you also make the Gal assault bonus lower ADS kick and dispersion in addition to just hipfire, then it should help on this factor. Overall, I recommend looking again at optimal range. 42m is low. Make it 50m instead. Then it should help make the gun feel more useful besides just up close where the HMGs play. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 255	Posted - 2015.01.19 16:19:00 - [89] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: There is another factor to consider. The nearly identical DPS breach variant (3 more DPS than the assault) feels much better to use. This is because of its low kick/dispersion. Especially during hipfire. When ADS you can get headshots more easily due to the low kick, and then low dispersion makes strafe play easier. This is both why the Gal assaults complain about their skill (they have an identical damage variant that has low kick/dispersion so they don't feel a need to have more) and why the skill is so useful. It can improve other variants significantly. If you also make the Gal assault bonus lower ADS kick and dispersion in addition to just hipfire, then it should help on this factor. Overall, I recommend looking again at optimal range. 42m is low. Make it 50m instead. Then it should help make the gun feel more useful besides just up close where the HMGs play. I don't understand why the assault variant (the base rifle for the gallente) does not have the highest DPS of the plasma rifles. In fact it's the complete opposite where the breach does for some reason, the breach variant should have the lowest DPS, longest firing time, probably a scope and more range. Then it would be the RR for the gallente (as originally intended) and wouldn't step on the regular AR's toes, leaving the AR more unique.
Middas Betancore Mantodea MC 372	Posted - 2015.01.19 16:20:00 - [90] - Quote Oddly I found my cal scout with assault rail wasn't quite performing how I liked, it felt too cumbersome up close, the spool and the massive recoil wasn't working for me anymore along with not having a reload bonus like my assault and commando I thought back to my beta days an thought of the blaster/plasma/assault rifle My scout fights CQC a lot...maybe I should use a blaster instead It definitely made it easier, instant fire , good dispersion off the hip, now with 70 round magazine Working a lot better, as for why it's not used much... I think for general up close bullet spewing ppl turn to the ACR for that job Perhaps it's the -10% vs armour that puts ppl off, the ACR chews through armour heavies much easier And that's the CQC fight ppl want to win, throw on the combat rifles reload skill and it's hard to compete with Some thoughts, wish I had a more useful solution....bigger magazines again...so it has markedly more than the ACR "Deploy the gas, we'll burn what's left"- Redacted



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