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Why isn't the AR better than the ACR at CQC?

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Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 1107	Posted - 2015.01.19 01:54:00 - [31] - Quote Because armor. Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1843	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:03:00 - [32] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Well, I'm not sure it is irrelevant. I mean, so Lets say: Gun X: Has 1500 damage in the clip. Gun Y: Has 1900 damage in the clip. Then you'd say that gun X isn't as good as Gun Y by that alone. Now Say that Gun X can empty that 1500 damage in 1 second, whereas Gun Y takes 2 seconds. I mean, we talk about DPS often for a reason right? So, how much faster can you empty a CR clip than an AR clip? Imp Smash wrote: Fair enough. So you don't know how exactly fast an AR can empty the clip and how fast the AR can empty the clip then but have an idea? I would assume by the DpM you listed and the DPS you listed that the ACR empties at about 2x the speed of the AR then? what you are pointing at does not make sense at all. being able to empty the clip faster while dealing lower DPS is not an advantage
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:22:00 - [33] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Well, I'm not sure it is irrelevant. I mean, so Lets say: Gun X: Has 1500 damage in the clip. Gun Y: Has 1900 damage in the clip. Then you'd say that gun X isn't as good as Gun Y by that alone. Now Say that Gun X can empty that 1500 damage in 1 second, whereas Gun Y takes 2 seconds. I mean, we talk about DPS often for a reason right? So, how much faster can you empty a CR clip than an AR clip? Imp Smash wrote: Fair enough. So you don't know how exactly fast an AR can empty the clip and how fast the AR can empty the clip then but have an idea? I would assume by the DpM you listed and the DPS you listed that the ACR empties at about 2x the speed of the AR then? what you are pointing at does not make sense at all. being able to empty the clip faster while dealing lower DPS is not an advantage Maybe not. I might be way off base. I haven't used the AR in almost 2 years so I really am poor about such a comparison. I DO use the CR and it certainly doesn't feel like the DPS is as low as people say. Then again, it could just be a skewed viewpoint based on TTK. As I said way earlier -- I'm just trying to understand it. I can't make a fair opinion or even really helpful feed back based on my limited experience. EDIT: One thing I DO notice is that I seem to burn through the 60+ CR clip WAY faster than I would expect. I feel like im out of ammo pretty much all the time. :(
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2300	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:25:00 - [34] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Well, I'm not sure it is irrelevant. I mean, so Lets say: Gun X: Has 1500 damage in the clip. Gun Y: Has 1900 damage in the clip. Then you'd say that gun X isn't as good as Gun Y by that alone. Now Say that Gun X can empty that 1500 damage in 1 second, whereas Gun Y takes 2 seconds. I mean, we talk about DPS often for a reason right? So, how much faster can you empty a CR clip than an AR clip? It doesn't matter. Its the DPS and DpM that matters in this scenario, which the AR has more of both. An AR outputs more damage per second, for a larger amount of time. The stats that really matter are DPS and Damage per mag/heat (DpM). AR DPS: 412 ACR DPS: 397.6 AR DpM: 2163 ACR DpM: 1352 As you can see, the AR both outputs damage at a faster rate, and can output much more damage before it has to stop. Fair enough. So you don't know how exactly fast an AR can empty the clip and how fast the AR can empty the clip then but have an idea? I would assume by the DpM you listed and the DPS you listed that the ACR empties at about 2x the speed of the AR then? The AR takes 5.25s to empty. The ACR takes 3.4s to empty. Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2300	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:36:00 - [35] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Atiim wrote: Because you're not great with the AR? Against Shield users the AR is much better than the ACR (an extra 130 DPS) but against Armor users the ACR is better by only 94 DPS. Given how the DPS losses and gains are in favor of the AR, your complaint is unfounded. My theory is that the high RoF allows you to slow down targets more therfore making it easier to shoot your target the longer you shoot at them. It is a less exaggerated version of what happens with the HMG. The rate of fire might be high enough to make even shield suits very slow. Then again I am unsure what determines how much each shot slows you down: whether it's just RoF or if damage is a factor. They removed that. Slowdown doesn't happen anymore. And it was a stat called 'Momentum'. Rail Weapons had the highest, Projectiles had the second highest, Blaster took third, and Lasers had the least. Are you sure? Haven't you ever found it hard to move while being shot by the HMG? I'm almost positive. I remember that a lot of people didn't like the effect, and that CCP did something with it. I might be assuming too much by saying they removed it, as they might have just reduced it... They also might have only done something to the HMG, as well I suppose. Anecdotal bits ahead. I have found it hard to move, but only with the HMG, and even then I haven't noticed anything since they changed it in some way. I really wish that we could get some real stat databases for us to access. In game. This is the kind of stuff we need to know if CCP ever wants extremely helpful feedback... Home at Last <3
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:51:00 - [36] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Well, I'm not sure it is irrelevant. I mean, so Lets say: Gun X: Has 1500 damage in the clip. Gun Y: Has 1900 damage in the clip. Then you'd say that gun X isn't as good as Gun Y by that alone. Now Say that Gun X can empty that 1500 damage in 1 second, whereas Gun Y takes 2 seconds. I mean, we talk about DPS often for a reason right? So, how much faster can you empty a CR clip than an AR clip? It doesn't matter. Its the DPS and DpM that matters in this scenario, which the AR has more of both. An AR outputs more damage per second, for a larger amount of time. The stats that really matter are DPS and Damage per mag/heat (DpM). AR DPS: 412 ACR DPS: 397.6 AR DpM: 2163 ACR DpM: 1352 As you can see, the AR both outputs damage at a faster rate, and can output much more damage before it has to stop. Fair enough. So you don't know how exactly fast an AR can empty the clip and how fast the AR can empty the clip then but have an idea? I would assume by the DpM you listed and the DPS you listed that the ACR empties at about 2x the speed of the AR then? The AR takes 5.25s to empty. The ACR takes 3.4s to empty. And how many bullets are in an AR clip and how many are in an ACR clip? Or CR clip?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1811	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:53:00 - [37] - Quote Because Dual Tanking > Armor > Shields.
DozersMouse XIII Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 921	Posted - 2015.01.19 03:02:00 - [38] - Quote I like them both because they both kill "I had no idea you could milk a cat." "Oh yeah, you can milk anything with nipples."
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7145	Posted - 2015.01.19 03:10:00 - [39] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: And how many bullets are in an AR clip and how many are in an ACR clip? Or CR clip? Seriously, just boot up your PS3 and look at the stats. You are acting like the stats aren't publicly available. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2015.01.19 03:58:00 - [40] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Imp Smash wrote: And how many bullets are in an AR clip and how many are in an ACR clip? Or CR clip? Seriously, just boot up your PS3 and look at the stats. You are acting like the stats aren't publicly available. At work :(

DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7147	Posted - 2015.01.19 04:36:00 - [41] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Imp Smash wrote: And how many bullets are in an AR clip and how many are in an ACR clip? Or CR clip? Seriously, just boot up your PS3 and look at the stats. You are acting like the stats aren't publicly available. At work :( Standard AR is 70, CR is 54(67 with Minmatar Assault level V) Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15129	Posted - 2015.01.19 05:33:00 - [42] - Quote AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 5600	Posted - 2015.01.19 05:37:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Faster RoF? That's what made the ACR perform better than the AR back in the day (I mean, it was a joke back then, but that's besides the point). Raise it by 50 or so just to try it out.
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14485	Posted - 2015.01.19 05:46:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Maybe your Range to DPS ratio underestimates the importance of range? Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1921	Posted - 2015.01.19 05:50:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Because its still in roughly the same range as the HMG... which does 600 dps vs shields or >800+ vs armor with no skills. If the HMG wasn't THE BEST weapon at close range and outclassing the AR by ~ 300 dps with dmg mods / proficiency this might not be such an issue. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2905	Posted - 2015.01.19 05:56:00 - [46] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... It's the shortest range weapon, yet is shield oriente -- it's always going to struggle when you hit the barrier of armor and armor still dominates the battlefield. Personally, I think it needs a DPS buff (or a perhaps +5/-5 damage profile). The only way I can really get it to work right now is to use it with a speed tanked gal assault and engage at a distance where hipfire is accurate for me and not my opponent (15-ish meter)....or use the breach AR which is still viable for low-hp targets.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3563	Posted - 2015.01.19 05:57:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!?!?! Its the friggen FOTM right now, and you want to buff it??!?!?! "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 800	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:07:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Go look at blaster weapons in eve. They do higher damage per shot than any other close range weapon and second highest rate of fire. Gallente weapon bonuses are always damage and rate of fire. The AR should be the shotgun of rifles. Superior, overwhelming dps regardless of whatever you're shooting at. That said, gallente ships would have the same problem though if propulsion mods were moved to low slots. The problem with AR is with application because of it's short range. You need to be faster than your target in order to get into and stay within range. Madruggar tanks without a fuel injector have the same problem when using blasters too. The fix is two things: 1. increase sprint speed of gallente or move kincats to high slots. 2. Place AR dps higher. Keep increasing damage as rof is good enough. 40 damage per shot at standard. See what happens.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1021	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:22:00 - [49] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Maybe your Range to DPS ratio underestimates the importance of range? Could also be that the Gal Assault has a... underwhelming bonus. Agree I like the Gal bonus only because it makes the gal weapons ALMOST as accurate when you hip-fire as the other racial weapons. Still better to use an aCR or aRR for accuracy and better range. I don't use any Amarr weapons so no idea on them. Not sure, Is the bad kick and dispersion supposed to be a help in CqC or what? If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 5600	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:23:00 - [50] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Go look at blaster weapons in eve. They do higher damage per shot than any other close range weapon and second highest rate of fire. Gallente weapon bonuses are always damage and rate of fire. The AR should be the shotgun of rifles. Superior, overwhelming dps regardless of whatever you're shooting at. That said, gallente ships would have the same problem though if propulsion mods were moved to low slots. The problem with AR is with application because of it's short range. You need to be faster than your target in order to get into and stay within range. Madruggar tanks without a fuel injector have the same problem when using blasters too. The fix is two things: 1. increase sprint speed of gallente or move kincats to high slots. 2. Place AR dps higher. Keep increasing damage as rof is good enough. 40 damage per shot at standard. See what happens. Ooohhhh, I like both proposals :3

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 534	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:26:00 - [51] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Imp Smash wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Imp Smash wrote: And how many bullets are in an AR clip and how many are in an ACR clip? Or CR clip? Seriously, just boot up your PS3 and look at the stats. You are acting like the stats aren't publicly available. At work :( Standard AR is 70, CR is 54(67 with Minmatar Assault level V) Thank you! So almost identical bullet count. Fizzer XCIV wrote: Fair enough. So you don't know how exactly fast an AR can empty the clip and how fast the AR can empty the clip then but have an idea? I would assume by the DpM you listed and the DPS you listed that the ACR empties at about 2x the speed of the AR then? The AR takes 5.25s to empty. The ACR takes 3.4s to empty.[/quote] So with identical bullet counts the CR fires about 50% faster than the AR. Do the RPMs on the guns reflect that?
LAVALLOIS Nash 453	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:27:00 - [52] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... It's the shortest range weapon, yet is shield oriented -- it's always going to struggle when you hit the barrier of armor. And that's what happens with the AR -- you run into armor tankers and die. Personally, I think it needs a bit of a DPS buff (or a perhaps +5/-5 damage profile). The only way I can really get it to work right now is to use it with a speed tanked gal assault and engage at a distance where hipfire is accurate for me and not my opponent (15-ish meter)...or just pull out the ARR with the much better armor profile and, for me, simply a better overall performer. But really, the AR is not that far off, IMO. Yeah thats the biggest disadvantage of a AR and the biggest advantage of a CR. If I have a ACR, I can just carry fluxes or count on the fact that not many people shield tank anyway. Once the shields are gone, it will shred armor, even tanked armor. The AR though, doesn't always have enough punch to keep killing, especially if the target is wildly evasive. im not quite sure how balancing it could fix it, as its tied more to peoples equipment choices. Not to mention you can remove someones shield tank with a flux, but you cant do that for armor. The ARs biggest impact can be replaced by using a militia flux grenade.
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14487	Posted - 2015.01.19 07:09:00 - [53] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!?!?! Its the friggen FOTM right now, and you want to buff it??!?!?! FOTM in your head maybe. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 20878	Posted - 2015.01.19 07:17:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I imagine this is because if you use an AR, you operate in the same ranges as the HMG. If you are operating in the same ranges as the HMG, you die horribly and often. Sometimes, one just has an overwhelming urge to throw a potato at someone.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 3153	Posted - 2015.01.19 07:34:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... Better iron sights or atleast more intuitive scope or UI with the gun. The gun has always been decent... Just the average user even in veteran circles barely knows where to aim with the iron sights... And that it is that teeeny weeeny little dot ontop of the iron sight. The Variants suffer from similar problems... The Tac and Burst scope has never gone over to well in DUST.... In Beta we had completely different scopes... Only time other then beta the gun was useful was when Uprising launched and hit detection was so messed they where the only two guns that worked consistently... Then we found out Turbo's worked with CCP Wolfman's reworked Bloom and aiming mechanics that he did for Uprising. The standard AR Got tweaked after Aim assist was launched in 1.4.. AR and Aim assist was to strong specially with damage mods at the time..... 1.5? The AR got nerfed..... Then the hit detection with the gun from that point has always been lagged... It has been optimized a bit ... but the lag or time in which your client and the server registers hits and deaths on targets has never felt right since... If good Sights and scopes where put on the AR and variants the gun would be worth it for the average DUST mercenary...
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9268	Posted - 2015.01.19 07:38:00 - [56] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I imagine this is because if you use an AR, you operate in the same ranges as the HMG. If you are operating in the same ranges as the HMG, you die horribly and often. If the HMG wasn't so noob friendly maybe we could get somewhere. Also, with the AR I'd think it fair to give it more optimal range but with Ion Pistol rate of falloff, which is damn near instant to 0. I don't want to wreck at longer ranges, I just want to do good in my intended range. If you use a Gallente Assault Rifle and commonly engage enemies at 65+ meters you'd do much better off with any other weapon at that point. Longer optimal, shorter falloff.....and give us a ~~Grenade~~ Plasma Launcher for our Rifles as well please! Pretty please, I'll buy more AUR! CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9268	Posted - 2015.01.19 07:49:00 - [57] - Quote I also do remember all the rifles getting nerfed to increase ttk a while back, I'm not sure if we got our damage back to the way it was back then but I do remember the Plasma Rifle didn't need to be touched at all. Whoever the DEVs were at the time were just swinging the nerf hammer widely and sporadically. During the Short TTK era the Plasma Rifle still sucked but not because it was terrible. The Plasma Rifle was damn near perfect but in comparison to other rifles at the time it couldn't hold a candle to the other Rifle's TTK, then they blindly nerf all rifles and that puts it in the common era that we are still in now. In fact, the Plasma Rifle started sucking when it was the only rifle in the game and people started crying that they were getting killed too often (By the only general purpose weapon in the game) so CCP proceeded to nerf it for god knows what. P.S. And yes, I know the Duvolle Tactical had a short time in the sun for a brief second. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Big Burns Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 321	Posted - 2015.01.19 07:58:00 - [58] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... The solution to your problem. - Uprising 1.2 Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle, 150 damage per round with seemingly unlimited damage mods, minus stacking penalties. 1 shotting scouts again would balance the cloaking issue and save you guys time. I'm a try-hard, because half my team sits in the MCC.
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14491	Posted - 2015.01.19 08:19:00 - [59] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I also do remember all the rifles getting nerfed to increase ttk a while back, I'm not sure if we got our damage back to the way it was back then but I do remember the Plasma Rifle didn't need to be touched at all. Whoever the DEVs were at the time were just swinging the nerf hammer widely and sporadically. During the Short TTK era the Plasma Rifle still sucked but not because it was terrible. The Plasma Rifle was damn near perfect but in comparison to other rifles at the time it couldn't hold a candle to the other Rifle's TTK, then they blindly nerf all rifles and that puts it in the common era that we are still in now. In fact, the Plasma Rifle started sucking when it was the only rifle in the game and people started crying that they were getting killed too often (By the only general purpose weapon in the game) so CCP proceeded to nerf it for god knows what. P.S. And yes, I know the Duvolle Tactical had a short time in the sun for a brief second. Duvolle at the time had 37 damage, but had a ROF of 750. We now have 34 damage but with a ROF of 800 and a larger mag. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7151	Posted - 2015.01.19 08:25:00 - [60] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: AR needs something, I have buffed it 5 hotfixes in a row, and nothing seems to get it going... I imagine this is because if you use an AR, you operate in the same ranges as the HMG. If you are operating in the same ranges as the HMG, you die horribly and often. It's not just the HMG though. All the Assault variants seem to do better than the standard AR. The ACR has better RoF, the ARR lacks recoil for the first couple shots and the ASCR had virtually no dispersion which means it is extremely easy to land head shots. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.



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