DUST Search - A reason to eliminate or alter "dead" skills

Maken Tosch wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something.

even if just half a % or something.

As an Eve Online player, I recommend borrowing a page from that game's skill system. Just like Dust, there are skill books that don't have any bonuses directly tied to them -- as in written in their description -- but the ships in Eve provide a bonus to players based on what skill level they have for that book.

For example:

Advanced Mining Barges (aka Exhumers)

Skiff
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skiff
One of its bonuses include a 5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book.

Mackinaw
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mackinaw
5% to ship ore hold capacity per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book.

Hulk
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hulk
5% bonus to strip miner and ice harvester range per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book.

The point here is that Eve Online allows your ship to dictate the bonuses while at the same time some of the other skill books give bonuses of their own directly such as shield skills or missile skills.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6319	Posted - 2015.01.12 15:18:00 - [1] - Quote I am talking about skills that provide no bonus or benefit beyond being there for :reasons: I'm also talking about skills that have no benefit past level 3. Things like dropsuit command, frame skills and most of the vehicle tree. Kane Spero said it best: CCP is in the business of selling SP. Boosters are supposed to be one of the primary moneymakers. If none of the skills are "dead weight" or "useless" then players will have more of a reason to purchase boosters to fill out their skill trees. No one wants to buy boosters to fill out paywall skills that offer little benefit that could not be better obtained elsewhere such as dropsuit command 4, caldari medium frames 4, or HAV operation 2. the less "paywall" skills we have, and the more the skills we need benefit the player, the more impetus players feel to purchase boosters to help them fill out their trees, and the more funding CCP will get to improve the game. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1757	Posted - 2015.01.12 15:53:00 - [2] - Quote I like, those "empty" skills should give some bonus. give me a reason to max them out!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4353	Posted - 2015.01.12 16:07:00 - [3] - Quote That's a very good perspective for CCP to see it from. If they're going to basically be selling you SP in the form of boosters, then every single SP needs to be worth something, and not just a means to earn the right to spend more SP. Otherwise players are paying for effectively nothing. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Ku Shala The Generals 1122	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:47:00 - [4] - Quote just make it so the first skill in the tree effects the operation of skill further down the tree. so if dropsuit operation was only at level3 then medium dropsuit operation could only go to level 3 and specialist medium dropsuit could only be level 3. to conform to people already skilled simply lose the bonus until you have the skills, so even if you have caldari assault level 5 if drop suit command was only level 4 you would only receive caldari assault bonus up to level 4 even though you have a proto suit. or if you had dropsuit command 5 and only level 3 in caldari medium frame you would only receive the caldari assault bonus up to level 3 even if you had level 5 *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Burst RR should fire like a charge sniper
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1119	Posted - 2015.01.12 18:13:00 - [5] - Quote It's like they had an idea for the skill tree but have changed their minds so many times that it has lost a lot of it's original intention. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6340	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:47:00 - [6] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: passive bonuses are what ruins this game the skill tree does not need more unless they effect the isk cost of items in the market, passive bonuses are the reason there is such a gap between proto and basic That's your opinion. Not a fact. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Ku Shala The Generals 1122	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:56:00 - [7] - Quote so bonus stacking isnt the reason that proto stomping happens?bonus to suit base plus better modules with bonuses is not the reason that there is such a huge difference between a basic and proto fit? yes that is my opinion but them needing bonuses on all skills is yours, dont post if you dont want feedback *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Burst RR should fire like a charge sniper
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6340	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:12:00 - [8] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: so bonus stacking isnt the reason that proto stomping happens?bonus to suit base plus better modules with bonuses is not the reason that there is such a huge difference between a basic and proto fit? yes that is my opinion but them needing bonuses on all skills is yours, dont post if you dont want feedback Actually it's neither one, nor the other. It's the two factors combined. One of the reasons why I'm interested in dropsuit tiericide is because that levels off some of the gear advantage by levelling off the arms & armor aspect of a protostomp. Levelling off the gear advantage will lessen the SP advantage natively. the second part of a protostomp (I consider the gear and SP disparity to be one issue) is new players are rarely in squads with coordinated effort. Solo players don't protostomp successfully because individuals caught on the battlefield alone can be picked off by newbies with a little luck, or planning with moderate difficulty. The true protostomp comes when you have six (or more in a successful q-sync) players who are on comms together and used to operating as a team in tandem, and overlap their attacks in concert with one another. An individual from Molon Labe, Nyain San, or any other corp, even the old imperfects by themselves isn't a particularly difficult target to pick off. When there's SIX of them, then you have to start worrying. But stomps don't happen because a guy can easily rock proto. I can easily rock proto, and i routinely rip peoples' balls off. But as I am alone I am vulnerable to those all-too-frequent occurrences where I encounter multiple people at once, am vulnerable due to having gotten into multiple fights and overextended myself and generally am not in a good position to win. Stomps happen when there are SIX guys like me, who all know what they need to do, and know the guy next to them is going to be doing his job, as expected, consistently. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16511	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:15:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I am talking about skills that provide no bonus or benefit beyond being there for :reasons: I'm also talking about skills that have no benefit past level 3. Things like dropsuit command, frame skills and most of the vehicle tree. Kane Spero said it best: CCP is in the business of selling SP. Boosters are supposed to be one of the primary moneymakers. If none of the skills are "dead weight" or "useless" then players will have more of a reason to purchase boosters to fill out their skill trees. No one wants to buy boosters to fill out paywall skills that offer little benefit that could not be better obtained elsewhere such as dropsuit command 4, caldari medium frames 4, or HAV operation 2. the less "paywall" skills we have, and the more the skills we need benefit the player, the more impetus players feel to purchase boosters to help them fill out their trees, and the more funding CCP will get to improve the game. I do admit it was nice when you unlocked content at I, III, and IV respectively while tier V was for the last rounding incremental increase to your statistics. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 43	Posted - 2015.01.18 16:07:00 - [10] - Quote If we want to help new players out I can see 3 ways which connect quite with this point. remove dead skills, so people won't be fooled into spending sp uselessly move unlocking back to 1,3,4 - so new players will be able to catch up faster (level 5 can still be needed for officer weapons) change the scaling for SP needed from exponential to some linear factor

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4414	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:30:00 - [11] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: just make it so the first skill in the tree effects the operation of skill further down the tree. so if dropsuit operation was only at level3 then medium dropsuit operation could only go to level 3 and specialist medium dropsuit could only be level 3. to conform to people already skilled simply lose the bonus until you have the skills, so even if you have caldari assault level 5 if drop suit command was only level 4 you would only receive caldari assault bonus up to level 4 even though you have a proto suit. or if you had dropsuit command 5 and only level 3 in caldari medium frame you would only receive the caldari assault bonus up to level 3 even if you had level 5. passive bonuses are what ruins this game the skill tree does not need more unless they effect the isk cost of items in the market, passive bonuses are the reason there is such a gap between proto and basic How does this change anything? In fact it just makes it worse. You're still just training skills that do nothing just to spend more SP to get what you really wanted in the first place. You're basically required to train 2 skills to gain the benefit from 1. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Nevyn Tazinas Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 57	Posted - 2015.01.19 00:22:00 - [12] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: so bonus stacking isnt the reason that proto stomping happens?bonus to suit base plus better modules with bonuses is not the reason that there is such a huge difference between a basic and proto fit? yes that is my opinion but them needing bonuses on all skills is yours, dont post if you dont want feedback I think you'll find one of the biggest factors to proto stomping is actually the number of slots per suit. If all tiers had the same number of slots you would have a more even progression.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4414	Posted - 2015.01.19 01:28:00 - [13] - Quote You've basically got 4 factors working against new players 1. General understanding of Gameplay 2. Prototype Suits being able to fit more modules 3. Prototype suits being able to fit better modules 4. Passive Skill Bonuses 1 is just the nature of any game, so that's fine. 4 is just the nature of the skill system, and in actuality is more forgiving in many ways (Turret Operation in EVE is typically +5% Damage/Lvl and Proficiency is +10% Fire Rate) 2-3 is probably the biggest problem in my mind. Not only do lower tiered suits suffer from weaker modules, but less of them. This means that fitting is far more limited and boring than a proto suit, leaving generally less bonuses and utility than a Proto suit, even if the tier of module they're using is the same. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15115	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:09:00 - [14] - Quote I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 163	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:15:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. I had an idea for Basic Dropsuit Frame skills (that should only affect basic frames): 2-3% CPU/PG per level...or something like that, to highlight them as versatile, unspecific frames... Efficacy bonuses, even if they are small, would be nice on equipment skills as well Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2015.01.19 02:26:00 - [16] - Quote Like + Bump.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10793	Posted - 2015.01.19 03:03:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. As an Eve Online player, I recommend borrowing a page from that game's skill system. Just like Dust, there are skill books that don't have any bonuses directly tied to them -- as in written in their description -- but the ships in Eve provide a bonus to players based on what skill level they have for that book. For example: Advanced Mining Barges (aka Exhumers) Skiff https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skiff One of its bonuses include a 5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Mackinaw https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mackinaw 5% to ship ore hold capacity per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Hulk https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hulk 5% bonus to strip miner and ice harvester range per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. The point here is that Eve Online allows your ship to dictate the bonuses while at the same time some of the other skill books give bonuses of their own directly such as shield skills or missile skills. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 78	Posted - 2015.01.19 04:24:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. I hate having no benefit at lvls 2 and 4, makes yhat last bit of grind to 5 seem not worth it Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18343	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:23:00 - [19] - Quote I want it in such a manner that every time you level a skill you get a pop up describing what you just got or did. Like Trained Gallente Medium Frames to lvl III Popup [Unlocked Access to Gallente Assault Skillbook] [Unlocked Advanced Gallente Frame] [(X) Confirm] CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:27:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I want it in such a manner that every time you level a skill you get a pop up describing what you just got or did. Uh that would be nice. Would it only display things you can now use vor partially usable stuff aswell?

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6585	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:33:00 - [21] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: things I agree with However after having talked to various humans, the skill system would need to be entirely rebuilt and the dropsuits reconfigured as well. If we had a large dev team, then yeah it'd probably be doable. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:36:00 - [22] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: things I agree with However after having talked to various humans, the skill system would need to be entirely rebuilt and the dropsuits reconfigured as well. If we had a large dev team, then yeah it'd probably be doable. Thats why instead of overhauling it completely, we are band-aiding the issue. Better than nothing
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10800	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:52:00 - [23] - Quote I agree with Breakin regarding the Dev team size being a factor here. I just hope the Project Legion team is applying something like this for Legion at the very least. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
137H4RGIC Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 397	Posted - 2015.01.19 08:16:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. Dropsuit Command skill - the one that has no bonuses whatsoever. What if we could put that as 1% to dropsuit skill efficacy per level? Or something of that nature. Something that to train it to level V would be kind of an endgame goal to just push a little bit more oomph into your dropsuit? I want to help DUST become a better experience for everyone. Let's work together! 137H4RGIC - Running for CPM2 (SOONGäó)
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 65	Posted - 2015.01.19 08:20:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. Maybe you should open a feedback sticky for that. Let your players do the work, gathering all skill (levels) which have no effect. Then let them propose bonuses :D
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6585	Posted - 2015.01.19 09:00:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. When I am done kit - bashing the vehicle proposal I'll be happy to pull crowdsource ideas together into something resembling a readable format if you would like. Damn IWS and his pointing out that I need militia mod stats. How am I supposed to keep claiming I'm a lazy git if I'm continually adding more important things rather than indulging in flights of fancy? Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18347	Posted - 2015.01.19 09:01:00 - [27] - Quote pumping up wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I want it in such a manner that every time you level a skill you get a pop up describing what you just got or did. Uh that would be nice. Would it only display things you can now use vor partially usable stuff aswell? Things it will list Bonuses - example You gain +5% Reduction of Heat Buildup on all Laser Rifles Gear Access - Example you unlocked ELM-1 Advanced Laser Rifle Skill Book Access - Example You now have access to train Laser Rifle Proficiency Skill Book CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6585	Posted - 2015.01.19 09:02:00 - [28] - Quote Speak of the devil... Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3188	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:05:00 - [29] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. As an Eve Online player, I recommend borrowing a page from that game's skill system. Just like Dust, there are skill books that don't have any bonuses directly tied to them -- as in written in their description -- but the ships in Eve provide a bonus to players based on what skill level they have for that book. For example: Advanced Mining Barges (aka Exhumers) Skiff https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skiff One of its bonuses include a 5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Mackinaw https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mackinaw 5% to ship ore hold capacity per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Hulk https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hulk 5% bonus to strip miner and ice harvester range per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. The point here is that Eve Online allows your ship to dictate the bonuses while at the same time some of the other skill books give bonuses of their own directly such as shield skills or missile skills. So much win this in post. This is exactly how it should be. I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2798	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:55:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. There's tons of skills that offer 2%, 3% and 5% per level to something. I'm not calling you stupid, but that's 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10% at level 5. Dunno what dropsuit skills you mean. Like the basic frames getting some sort of bonus? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim



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