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A reason to eliminate or alter "dead" skills

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Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10810	Posted - 2015.01.19 19:28:00 - [31] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. As an Eve Online player, I recommend borrowing a page from that game's skill system. Just like Dust, there are skill books that don't have any bonuses directly tied to them -- as in written in their description -- but the ships in Eve provide a bonus to players based on what skill level they have for that book. For example: Advanced Mining Barges (aka Exhumers) Skiff https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skiff One of its bonuses include a 5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Mackinaw https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mackinaw 5% to ship ore hold capacity per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Hulk https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hulk 5% bonus to strip miner and ice harvester range per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. The point here is that Eve Online allows your ship to dictate the bonuses while at the same time some of the other skill books give bonuses of their own directly such as shield skills or missile skills. So much win this in post. This is exactly how it should be. EDIT: the only issue with this is the lack of specialized roles in Dust. I have the beginnings of an idea, and I will post later after I get my throughts worked through. The gist of it will be a way to make SP relevant in the short and long terms by adding bonuses to both skills (short term enhancement) and suits (long term enhancement). I'll work up the concept throughout the day and post later. While you're doing that, a little reminder is that Eve Online also features ships that have Multi-Racial bonuses. The Nestor, which is a battleship, is going for 1.3 Billion ISK in the market and that's just for the hull. But it carries two racial bonuses. 10% bonus to drone hit point and damage per level of the Gallente Battleship skill book. 4% bonus to all armor resistances per level of the Amarr Battleship skill book. These two books need to be trained in order to pilot the ship. And because it's a Multi-Racial ship, it's considered a Pirate Faction ship. Something for you to consider as well. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Skullmiser Vulcansu 255	Posted - 2015.01.19 20:36:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. I'd consider the amarr light frame suits if they had a CPU. Maybe give that specific suit more CPU per level? If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3189	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:30:00 - [33] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. As an Eve Online player, I recommend borrowing a page from that game's skill system. Just like Dust, there are skill books that don't have any bonuses directly tied to them -- as in written in their description -- but the ships in Eve provide a bonus to players based on what skill level they have for that book. For example: Advanced Mining Barges (aka Exhumers) Skiff https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skiff One of its bonuses include a 5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Mackinaw https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mackinaw 5% to ship ore hold capacity per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Hulk https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hulk 5% bonus to strip miner and ice harvester range per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. The point here is that Eve Online allows your ship to dictate the bonuses while at the same time some of the other skill books give bonuses of their own directly such as shield skills or missile skills. So much win this in post. This is exactly how it should be. EDIT: the only issue with this is the lack of specialized roles in Dust. I have the beginnings of an idea, and I will post later after I get my throughts worked through. The gist of it will be a way to make SP relevant in the short and long terms by adding bonuses to both skills (short term enhancement) and suits (long term enhancement). I'll work up the concept throughout the day and post later. While you're doing that, a little reminder is that Eve Online also features ships that have Multi-Racial bonuses. The Nestor, which is a battleship, is going for 1.3 Billion ISK in the market and that's just for the hull. But it carries two racial bonuses. 10% bonus to drone hit point and damage per level of the Gallente Battleship skill book. 4% bonus to all armor resistances per level of the Amarr Battleship skill book. These two books need to be trained in order to pilot the ship. And because it's a Multi-Racial ship, it's considered a Pirate Faction ship. Something for you to consider as well. Good points! Work ended up being a bear today so I haven't had time to sit down and work this through. Hopefully I can get it done while this is still a relevant discussion. I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1496	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:29:00 - [34] - Quote This sounds like a possibility for tech II variants introduction Also it would be nice if the skill tree for dropsuits and vehicles was more categorized, as in... Dropsuit Command - Minmatar - tech I (AKA basic suits with general bonuses) - Tech II (AKA racial suits) Amarr - Tech I - Tech II Caldari - Tech I - Tech II Gallente - Tech I - Tech II Same goes for vehicles except we should get rid of milita HAV's or bump up the pricing on them so they are not cheaper than a Proto suit and make the skill tree similar to how I recommended it to be above Making standard the tech I and specialized the tech II. And for the suits I was thinking we could have a "logi" basic frame unlocking at 2/3/5 with 2 equipment slots and 3 at level 5 skills If you'd like I can make a spread sheet about this SP earned perday/week
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3189	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:54:00 - [35] - Quote reserved I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3189	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:55:00 - [36] - Quote reserved I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3189	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:56:00 - [37] - Quote reserved I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3189	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:57:00 - [38] - Quote reserved I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3189	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:58:00 - [39] - Quote reserved I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3189	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:59:00 - [40] - Quote reserved I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*

knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1497	Posted - 2015.01.20 04:20:00 - [41] - Quote Quote: Minmatar Tech II Medic Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of equipment per level of Minmatar Medium Dropsuit Skillbook Bonus 2: 10% bonus to shield injector range per level of Minmatar Logistics Skillbook (PRIMARY BONUS) Bonus 3: 5% reduction in repair tool cool down up per level of Minmatar Logistics Skillbook (SECONDARY BONUS) IMO, i think this one should have repair tool range and the amarr get repair tool cool-down and i was thinking for the assault variants (for the minmatar at least), all assaults get a cpu/pg reduction to thier racial weapon. Minmatar Tech I combat Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Minmatar Tech II assault Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Bonus 2: 5% bonus to projectile clip size per level Bonus 3: 5% bonus to shield rechargers/energizers recharge rate per level Minmatar Tech II marksman Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Bonus 2: 2% bonus to optimal and effective range to projectile weapons Bonus 3: 3% reduction to dispersion to projectile weapons per level SP earned perday/week
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 77	Posted - 2015.01.20 04:51:00 - [42] - Quote I don't want to hate your idea but that would be a lot of dev time. Plus it increases the skill gap between newbs and vets. Ps. Rare hybrid/pirate suits would be pimp.
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3195	Posted - 2015.01.20 05:42:00 - [43] - Quote pumping up wrote: I don't want to hate your idea but that would be a lot of dev time. Plus it increases the skill gap between newbs and vets. Ps. Rare hybrid/pirate suits would be pimp. My thoughts: 1: I agree it is a lot of Dev time. It took Eve 10 years to realize that Tiericide was needed. Dust needs to learn from that and start now while there are relatively small number of suits, compared to the dozens of ships that are in Eve. 2. I don't think it would increase the skill gap. First, the Prototype suits we have today would take more SP than the Tech II suits (Level 3 skill + Level 3 skill + Level 5 today, versus Level 1 + Level 5 + Level 1 after). Also, the "pointless" skills are giving a bonus in this model so those SP sinks are helping. Additonally, because you are in a specified role at Dropsuit Command level 1 + (racial) Logistics Dropsuit level 1 you now have newer players getting into specialized roles faster instead of generic Basic frames. The other part to this is this - the low end suits have fewer "hops" to get to the high end suits. Today we go Militia Basic > Standard Basic > Advanced Basic > Standard Logistics > Advanced Logistics > Prototype Logistics. If this change were implemented (however long it takes), you get this in terms of SP total required: Militia > Tech I > Tech II > Faction, and you get to the Tech I variant much faster than the similar Standard Logistics suit because all you need now is Dropsuit Command level 1 and (racial) Logistics level 1 instead of Dropsuit Command level 2 + (racial) Medium Dropsuit 3 + (racial) Logistics level 1. Also, because of this, it will be much easier to try out each racial suit before you over specialize. 3. Thanks for the pirate suit compliment. I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3195	Posted - 2015.01.20 05:47:00 - [44] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: Quote: Minmatar Tech II Medic Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of equipment per level of Minmatar Medium Dropsuit Skillbook Bonus 2: 10% bonus to shield injector range per level of Minmatar Logistics Skillbook (PRIMARY BONUS) Bonus 3: 5% reduction in repair tool cool down up per level of Minmatar Logistics Skillbook (SECONDARY BONUS) IMO, i think this one should have repair tool range and the amarr get repair tool cool-down and i was thinking for the assault variants (for the minmatar at least), all assaults get a cpu/pg reduction to thier racial weapon. Minmatar Tech I combat Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Minmatar Tech II assault Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Bonus 2: 5% bonus to projectile clip size per level Bonus 3: 5% bonus to shield rechargers/energizers recharge rate per level Minmatar Tech II marksman Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Bonus 2: 2% bonus to optimal and effective range to projectile weapons Bonus 3: 3% reduction to dispersion to projectile weapons per level I did the Amarr with the cool down because they already have the cool down technology with the laser weapons. It seemed more thematically appropriate to me. Does that help you buy into it more? I haven't had a chance to look into the Assault Suits. Did you want me to work something up for them too? I can do that tomorrow if you like. Your ideas sound cool though. I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6620	Posted - 2015.01.20 08:39:00 - [45] - Quote This is a thread about dead skills, not post-level 5 content. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3195	Posted - 2015.01.20 11:05:00 - [46] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: This is a thread about dead skills, not post-level 5 content. I apologized and proposed a way to fix some dead skills. I'll apologize again. I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1500	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:01:00 - [47] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: knight guard fury wrote: Quote: Minmatar Tech II Medic Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of equipment per level of Minmatar Medium Dropsuit Skillbook Bonus 2: 10% bonus to shield injector range per level of Minmatar Logistics Skillbook (PRIMARY BONUS) Bonus 3: 5% reduction in repair tool cool down up per level of Minmatar Logistics Skillbook (SECONDARY BONUS) IMO, i think this one should have repair tool range and the amarr get repair tool cool-down and i was thinking for the assault variants (for the minmatar at least), all assaults get a cpu/pg reduction to thier racial weapon. Minmatar Tech I combat Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Minmatar Tech II assault Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Bonus 2: 5% bonus to projectile clip size per level Bonus 3: 5% bonus to shield rechargers/energizers recharge rate per level Minmatar Tech II marksman Frame Bonus 1: 5% reduction to pg/cpu to projectile and explosive weapons. Bonus 2: 2% bonus to optimal and effective range to projectile weapons Bonus 3: 3% reduction to dispersion to projectile weapons per level I did the Amarr with the cool down because they already have the cool down technology with the laser weapons. It seemed more thematically appropriate to me. Does that help you buy into it more? I haven't had a chance to look into the Assault Suits. Did you want me to work something up for them too? I can do that tomorrow if you like. Your ideas sound cool though. Nah it's alright. I'll just make a spread sheet later SP earned perday/week
Raedon Vo-Graza Armored Dragon Dust 63	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:33:00 - [48] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I'm in the market for Basic Dropsuit skills and other good ideas, I too think that there are too few unlocks at level 5, and that the level 2 and 4 gaps should have something. even if just half a % or something. As an Eve Online player, I recommend borrowing a page from that game's skill system. Just like Dust, there are skill books that don't have any bonuses directly tied to them -- as in written in their description -- but the ships in Eve provide a bonus to players based on what skill level they have for that book. For example: Advanced Mining Barges (aka Exhumers) Skiff https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skiff One of its bonuses include a 5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Mackinaw https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mackinaw 5% to ship ore hold capacity per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. Hulk https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hulk 5% bonus to strip miner and ice harvester range per level of the Mining Barge Skill Book. The point here is that Eve Online allows your ship to dictate the bonuses while at the same time some of the other skill books give bonuses of their own directly such as shield skills or missile skills. So much win this in post. This is exactly how it should be. EDIT: the only issue with this is the lack of specialized roles in Dust. I have the beginnings of an idea, and I will post later after I get my throughts worked through. The gist of it will be a way to make SP relevant in the short and long terms by adding bonuses to both skills (short term enhancement) and suits (long term enhancement). I'll work up the concept throughout the day and post later. While you're doing that, a little reminder is that Eve Online also features ships that have Multi-Racial bonuses. The Nestor, which is a battleship, is going for 1.3 Billion ISK in the market and that's just for the hull. But it carries two racial bonuses. 10% bonus to drone hit point and damage per level of the Gallente Battleship skill book. 4% bonus to all armor resistances per level of the Amarr Battleship skill book. These two books need to be trained in order to pilot the ship. And because it's a Multi-Racial ship, it's considered a Pirate Faction ship. Something for you to consider as well. I always believed that the tac ar, assault cr, assault rr, assault scr, and the like should be pirate weapons, and have the same skill type requirements. I would feel better when getting killed by them knowing that someone had to put in twice as many skill points to use it.
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1501	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:07:00 - [49] - Quote To be back on topic though, it would be reasonable if the basic frame got a bonus to more cup/pg per level and a (minimal) weapon bonus to their racial weapon SP earned perday/week
Forlorn Destrier Incorruptibles 3196	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:43:00 - [50] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: To be back on topic though, it would be reasonable if the basic frame got a bonus to more cup/pg per level and a (minimal) weapon bonus to their racial weapon Agreed. I am the *Forgotten Warhorse, a Lord of Lightning. Havok, my Destiny. I am Incorruptible*

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6631	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:44:00 - [51] - Quote I think the basic frames should benefit from racial bonuses rather than a generic PG/CPU buff Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1501	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:48:00 - [52] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I think the basic frames should benefit from racial bonuses rather than a generic PG/CPU buff Trust me, the minmatar basic frame has the same issue that the assault did before the slot changes which is insufficient cpu when using certain amount of modules with high cpu demand. Especially on proto as I use it sometimes SP earned perday/week
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6631	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:49:00 - [53] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I think the basic frames should benefit from racial bonuses rather than a generic PG/CPU buff Trust me, the minmatar basic frame has the same issue that the assault did before the slot changes which is insufficient cpu when using certain amount of modules with high cpu demand. Especially on proto as I use it sometimes I've never run into this problem Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1501	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:00:00 - [54] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: knight guard fury wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I think the basic frames should benefit from racial bonuses rather than a generic PG/CPU buff Trust me, the minmatar basic frame has the same issue that the assault did before the slot changes which is insufficient cpu when using certain amount of modules with high cpu demand. Especially on proto as I use it sometimes I've never run into this problem Well it occurs more so if you have cup/pg upgrades below 3 but even still (when I'm using it) I am nearly almost always near the extent of my cpu. But I dont really run into insufficient cpu problem anymore since I have both cpu and ph to 3 now so it's really just a skill priority to get those up. So I suppose you are right that they don't really need a bonus towards cpu/pg. But yes a racial bonus would be nice based on how it has its slot layout or something similar. SP earned perday/week
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6632	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:03:00 - [55] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: knight guard fury wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I think the basic frames should benefit from racial bonuses rather than a generic PG/CPU buff Trust me, the minmatar basic frame has the same issue that the assault did before the slot changes which is insufficient cpu when using certain amount of modules with high cpu demand. Especially on proto as I use it sometimes I've never run into this problem Well it occurs more so if you have cup/pg upgrades below 3 but even still (when I'm using it) I am nearly almost always near the extent of my cpu. But I dont really run into insufficient cpu problem anymore since I have both cpu and ph to 3 now so it's really just a skill priority to get those up. So I suppose you are right that they don't really need a bonus towards cpu/pg. But yes a racial bonus would be nice based on how it has its slot layout or something similar. 5% at level 5 isn't going to change the CPU/PG counts significantly. You might get an extra point. It'll still be a dead skill with no benefit past 3 Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1502	Posted - 2015.01.20 17:35:00 - [56] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: knight guard fury wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: knight guard fury wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I think the basic frames should benefit from racial bonuses rather than a generic PG/CPU buff Trust me, the minmatar basic frame has the same issue that the assault did before the slot changes which is insufficient cpu when using certain amount of modules with high cpu demand. Especially on proto as I use it sometimes I've never run into this problem Well it occurs more so if you have cup/pg upgrades below 3 but even still (when I'm using it) I am nearly almost always near the extent of my cpu. But I dont really run into insufficient cpu problem anymore since I have both cpu and ph to 3 now so it's really just a skill priority to get those up. So I suppose you are right that they don't really need a bonus towards cpu/pg. But yes a racial bonus would be nice based on how it has its slot layout or something similar. 5% at level 5 isn't going to change the CPU/PG counts significantly. You might get an extra point. It'll still be a dead skill with no benefit past 3 I never said anything about it being 5% at 5, but 5 per level is somewhat significant. I can see certain fittings with certain modules would cause fitting problems, but you can either change the guy or use a lesser version of that module. SP earned perday/week
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6636	Posted - 2015.01.20 17:49:00 - [57] - Quote won't happen. CCP wants fitting to be tight in certain ways on each suit. Speed tanking past a certain point actually breaks hit detection, for instance. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1502	Posted - 2015.01.20 18:40:00 - [58] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: won't happen. CCP wants fitting to be tight in certain ways on each suit. Speed tanking past a certain point actually breaks hit detection, for instance. Yes, but no suit will go past 11.11 meters and the only suit that can meet that speed is the minmatar scout. If armor plate affected inertia and mass based on frame size than hit detection wouldn't be as big of a deal with tanked scouts speed strafing by bullets. And we have already said the suits don't necessarily need a bonus to cpu/pg, let's move past this. Ideally if they had bonus's that benefited the race than that would be fine. But what I'm thinking is should they have just one bonus or should they am have two bonuses that benefit them but doesn't specialize them very much at all SP earned perday/week
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10823	Posted - 2015.01.20 20:43:00 - [59] - Quote pumping up wrote: Ps. Rare hybrid/pirate suits would be pimp. The concept of having a hybrid/pirate suit would be excellent. Imagine a Caldari Dropsuit with bonuses from both the Caldari and the Amarr, or a Minmatar Dropsuit with the combined bonuses from that of the Minmatar and Gallente. Imagine players with Sansha's Nation Dropsuits or with Dread Guristas Dropsuits or Mordu's Legion Dropsuits. It would really change things up. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1504	Posted - 2015.01.21 02:09:00 - [60] - Quote Can we please get back on topic for what the skills should be for the rest of the frames. (Including light and heavy) (Edit: otherwise I'm going to make ideas for what they should be) SP earned perday/week



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