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Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 16:30:00 - [121] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: [...] so what you are saying that if RE BW was dropped, you would still be dissatisfied with the BW system? Why? When you give your answer, please assume for the sake of the discussion that BW is never ever going to be completely removed from the game and it is mandatory for further game development that we have a thriving Logi community. [...] Operating under that set of conditions, what would make you happy with this system? Note: Aside from reducing the BW costs of explosives to free up BW for something else, giving scouts more BW is not on the table because as I've already stated, there's no way that will incentivize people to become logi's - it is in fact guaranteed to do the exact opposite because we've already tried letting scouts be do-everything suits with their second EQ slot and here we are. It's not a coincidence that scouts were given so little BW in the first place. The general consensus seems to be that logis can't do it all, and so scouts, assaults and commandos (SAC) should lend a helping hand by carring uplinks, needles, etc. If the SAC wants to perform that duty, then it is all good and well. One of the distinguishing aspects of the game is the dynamic of choosing how you will build and play a dropsuit, customized to your style. But REs, PEs and nanohives are more aligned with the SAC roles. Here's the problem when bandwidth is too tight. It restricts expected role transference, the community expectation that SAC will occasionally perform support, while still needing the tools to perform their roles best. We have to face the music that, even if role transference were not a community expectation, sometimes there is not enough logi support on a team. This in turn mandates mercs to carry their own hives and uplinks, thereby forcing them to perform support duties themselves which is a clear indication that role transference is not only an expectation, but a requirement. Since role transference is a requirement, my opinion is that we must find a way to meet that need for every role, not just SAC. By now, you may know that my idea is to grant a small buffer of bandwidth in addition to the dropsuit role-balanced bandwidth, which allows for a small amount of team support in addition to performing the given role. (~4bw, about the bw of 1 uplink or 1 hive) Thinking Functional Jurisdictions As Opposed To Dropsuit Type There's this: why does the dropsuit that you are wearing matter so much? Isn't the function that you are performing much more important? If I can perform A/V ten times more effectively in a scout suit than I can in a commando suit, then why shouldn't I do it? If I can inflitrate an enemy compound with a scout, 2 uplinks and 3 REs, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do it? Why must I play in a logi dropsuit to perform the infiltration function now? If I can perform point defense ten times more effectively in a scout suit than a heavy suit, then why shouldn't I do it? Why are we trying to push people into cookie cutter molds? My favorite part of the game when I first started playing was the ability to match my dropsuit to the function I wanted to perform. That is slowly diminishing, and so is the appeal of the game. (nb4can I haz ISK, When I stop finding ways to have fun, I'll quit). Dropsuits are merely a physical embodiment of the utility I needed in a particular moment to get a job done. We need to loosen to bandwidth constraints to the degree that we still have variety in drop suit builds, otherwise, why offer the option of how you want to build a dropsuit at all? If everyone likes to play a scout, find out why. Don't just try to incentivize them to shift roles artificially. What is fun about playing a scout? Was it that the other dropsuits were too sluggish? Was strafing the best cqc tactic because it is more effective than using cover? Do we need to improve some other aspect of the game in order to make the other roles more appealing? It is a video game. People play games for fun factor. If you are trying to entice a certain % of the player base to be a logi, then you need to make logi a fun role. Most people in a FPS want to shoot stuff. If you make logis more like assaults, then essentially, you'll make a super assault plus - fun for fighting and can carry/deploy a bunch of equipment. Then people will leave assault behind and play super assault because it offers the same fun with more options. Then the assault fanboys will say, hey we need more incentives as assaults, etc. It is a downward spiral. Why can't we leave the suits alone, admit they are what they are and that the number of people who want to play them will vary with the context of the game/meta. A dropsuit is not a role. If we continue to treat dropsuits as roles, then we will remove the freedom of building dropsuits to match our creative expression as a player. Conclusion If you grant approx 4 bw in addition to what dropsuits have now, then that will not result in hive/uplink spam, but maybe we won't see so many redline matches. If granting a bufferr of bandwidth to acknowledge role transference and create variety is off of the table, then I think we have become a little too governing.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5092	Posted - 2015.01.09 17:38:00 - [122] - Quote So basically you are saying everything can and should be able to done better in a scout suit? Does that sound like an ideal or balanced solution in ANY WAY to you? I suppose it does otherwise you wouldn't have said it the way you did. That's all I needed to read. I don't want to play the game you describe. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 17:47:00 - [123] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: So basically you are saying everything can and should be able to done better in a scout suit? Does that sound like an ideal or balanced solution in ANY WAY to you? I suppose it does otherwise you wouldn't have said it the way you did. That's all I needed to read. I don't want to play the game you describe. You read it with bias. I am saying that all roles should be able to provide a minor team support contribution in addition to the demands of their own role.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5092	Posted - 2015.01.09 18:04:00 - [124] - Quote Clone D wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: So basically you are saying everything can and should be able to done better in a scout suit? Does that sound like an ideal or balanced solution in ANY WAY to you? I suppose it does otherwise you wouldn't have said it the way you did. That's all I needed to read. I don't want to play the game you describe. You read it with bias. I am saying that all roles should be able to provide a minor team support contribution in addition to the demands of their own role. That's not what your said at all. You said (paraphrasing slightly): if scouts can do x better, why not? If they can also do y better, why not? Why should we be forcing them out of that? Here: Clone D wrote: If I can perform A/V ten times more effectively in a scout suit than I can in a commando suit, then why shouldn't I do it? If I can inflitrate an enemy compound with a scout, 2 uplinks and 3 REs, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do it? Why must I play in a logi dropsuit to perform the infiltration function now? If I can perform point defense ten times more effectively in a scout suit than a heavy suit, then why shouldn't I do it? Why are we trying to push people into cookie cutter molds? Because that makes no fcking sense! Why do the other godd@mn suits even exist then? Does the concept of game balance have any meaning to you? In a game with 5 classes of suit, if one (the scout) is the way you describe then it's pathetically broken and major changes need to occur*. The question you should ask isn't why are we trying to push people out of that, its what idiot designed a game like that in the first place! Otherwise you may as well just take tiericide to the 100th power, get rid of every other suit, make one standard base blueprint, give a list of modules and let everyone make a slighty-less-generic version of the same suit for different needs. It will be a revolution in gaming! (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 18:34:00 - [125] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Clone D wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: So basically you are saying everything can and should be able to done better in a scout suit? Does that sound like an ideal or balanced solution in ANY WAY to you? I suppose it does otherwise you wouldn't have said it the way you did. That's all I needed to read. I don't want to play the game you describe. You read it with bias. I am saying that all roles should be able to provide a minor team support contribution in addition to the demands of their own role. That's not what your said at all. You said (paraphrasing slightly): if scouts can do x better, why not? If they can also do y better, why not? Why should we be forcing them out of that? Here: Clone D wrote: If I can perform A/V ten times more effectively in a scout suit than I can in a commando suit, then why shouldn't I do it? If I can inflitrate an enemy compound with a scout, 2 uplinks and 3 REs, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do it? Why must I play in a logi dropsuit to perform the infiltration function now? If I can perform point defense ten times more effectively in a scout suit than a heavy suit, then why shouldn't I do it? Why are we trying to push people into cookie cutter molds? Because that makes no fcking sense! Why do the other godd@mn suits even exist then? Does the concept of game balance have any meaning to you? In a game with 5 classes of suit, if one (the scout) is the way you describe then it's pathetically broken and major changes need to occur*. The question you should ask isn't why are we trying to push people out of it, its what idiot designed a game like that in the first place! Otherwise you may as well just take tiericide to the 100th power, get rid of every other suit, make one standard base blueprint, give a list of modules and let everyone make a slighty-less-generic version of the same suit for different needs. It will be a revolution in gaming! Have you taken algebra? Replace scout with X. Scout If I can perform A/V ten times more effectively in a scout suit than I can in a commando suit, then why shouldn't I do it? If I can inflitrate an enemy compound with a scout, 2 uplinks and 3 REs, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do it? Why must I play in a logi dropsuit to perform the infiltration function now? If I can perform point defense ten times more effectively in a scout suit than a heavy suit, then why shouldn't I do it? Why are we trying to push people into cookie cutter molds? Assault If I can perform A/V ten times more effectively in a assault suit than I can in a commando suit, then why shouldn't I do it? If I can inflitrate an enemy compound with a assault, 2 uplinks and 3 REs, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do it? Why must I play in a logi dropsuit to perform the infiltration function now? If I can perform point defense ten times more effectively in a assault suit than a heavy suit, then why shouldn't I do it? Why are we trying to push people into cookie cutter molds? Logi If I can perform A/V ten times more effectively in a logi suit than I can in a commando suit, then why shouldn't I do it? If I can inflitrate an enemy compound with a logi, 2 uplinks and 3 REs, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do it? If I can perform point defense ten times more effectively in a logi suit than a heavy suit, then why shouldn't I do it? Why are we trying to push people into cookie cutter molds? Commando If I can perform A/V ten times more effectively in a commando suit than I can in a blueprint A/V suit, then why shouldn't I do it? If I can inflitrate an enemy compound with a commando,and 3 REs, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do it? If I can perform point defense ten times more effectively in a commando suit than a heavy suit, then why shouldn't I do it? Why are we trying to push people into cookie cutter molds? Heavy If I can perform A/V ten times more effectively in a heavy suit than I can in a commando suit, then why shouldn't I do it? If I can inflitrate an enemy compound with a heavy, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do it? If I can perform point defense ten times more effectively in a heavy suit than an assault suit, then why shouldn't I do it? Why are we trying to push people into cookie cutter molds? Your thinking is limited to the extent that you can only imagine performing specific duties in specific suits.
RayRay James Titans of Phoenix 891	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:01:00 - [126] - Quote Combat oriented people pushed to have the needle nerf installed. Sure WP Farming happened, but get over it. People stopped playing logi because of it. Bandwidth was introduced because CCP wanted it, not Logi's Loss of logis from previous nerfs means less logis on the field. I still run a link, needle, rep milita suit as my main and a pro logi when I want to have fun. I have droplink suits, nanohive suits, and every kind of equipment suit a logi should have for any ocassion. I can bring out the droplink suit, get dead, and spawn in with a different fit because bandwidth transfers over. Ultimately, the problem isn't any of the changes. It's that the changes made people leave the role. Less logis = less equipment. Also, assaults and scouts have equipment slots. suck it up and use them. Us logis wont mind an extra droplink or hive.
RayRay James Titans of Phoenix 891	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:04:00 - [127] - Quote Clone D wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Proxies are one option, one that to be effective requires as many proxies as you can lay down, meaning no links, hives or remotes. It seens like a poor tradeoff for a logi to do this. Who is supposed to lay proxies now? Can you describe a strategy that makes sense? My logi with proto proxies, RE and nanohive work great in certain scenarios. Get me on the bridge map with that suit and unless the tank is paying fantastic attention there's no more tank.
Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:08:00 - [128] - Quote RayRay James wrote: Clone D wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Proxies are one option, one that to be effective requires as many proxies as you can lay down, meaning no links, hives or remotes. It seens like a poor tradeoff for a logi to do this. Who is supposed to lay proxies now? Can you describe a strategy that makes sense? My logi with proto proxies, RE and nanohive work great in certain scenarios. Get me on the bridge map with that suit and unless the tank is paying fantastic attention there's no more tank. Hey RayRay! Thanks for your feedback on this. I'm trying to learn how people are using proxies nowadays. How many proxies do you deploy? What do you do afterward?
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 723	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:19:00 - [129] - Quote RayRay James wrote: Combat oriented people pushed to have the needle nerf installed. Sure WP Farming happened, but get over it. People stopped playing logi because of it. Bandwidth was introduced because CCP wanted it, not Logi's Loss of logis from previous nerfs means less logis on the field. I still run a link, needle, rep milita suit as my main and a pro logi when I want to have fun. I have droplink suits, nanohive suits, and every kind of equipment suit a logi should have for any ocassion. I can bring out the droplink suit, get dead, and spawn in with a different fit because bandwidth transfers over. Ultimately, the problem isn't any of the changes. It's that the changes made people leave the role. Less logis = less equipment. Also, assaults and scouts have equipment slots. suck it up and use them. Us logis wont mind an extra droplink or hive. This I don't think is too far off. D, you have the ability to "perform" any role from any suit now, as BW is. Are you as effective at it than suits designed to optimize that role? No, and you shouldn't be. Thats why suit base specialization exists. As far as raising the BW limits for SAC, why? They have enough to self-support at a basic level OR weaponize further, as you've proven repeatedly. It just isn't enough BW to do both, simultaneously. Just like how none of my Logi suits can generate passive scans low enough and far enough to detect dampened scouts. If I want to do that, I need a scout frame and to sacrifice most of my Logi gear. And remember, I am the guy who argued vehemently against BW being added the minute the topic was bluestickied. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 723	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:22:00 - [130] - Quote RayRay James wrote: Clone D wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Proxies are one option, one that to be effective requires as many proxies as you can lay down, meaning no links, hives or remotes. It seens like a poor tradeoff for a logi to do this. Who is supposed to lay proxies now? Can you describe a strategy that makes sense? My logi with proto proxies, RE and nanohive work great in certain scenarios. Get me on the bridge map with that suit and unless the tank is paying fantastic attention there's no more tank. Amen to that ^^^^^^ #AVLogiMafiaSinceMurderTaxi514.1.3 Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 269	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:25:00 - [131] - Quote Flint Beastgood III wrote: Clone D wrote: Logis pushed for sole propriety over equipment. They got it, and now what? There are many more matches without any uplinks on the field whatsoever. Proximity explosives are a thing of the past because logis have better things to do? Logis are doing the one thing that they know how to do. Latch onto a heavy and hold R1 for the remainder of the match. Do your jobs logis. If you see a battlefield with all red letters and no friendly uplinks, then you didn't do your job. Learn how to prevent that. Don't make me stop assaulting and capturing objectives, because you don't know how to do your job, so that I can do it for you. Bandwidth. I still do my uplink thing, but they only go so far now. I'm not running proto every match just so I can place down 8 instead of 6, that's just reetarded. I know what you're saying though. At first I stopped uplinking when bandwidth was introduced, but more and more I am forced to drive around placing links or sit in the redline with the rest of the team until the match ends, lol. Logi is now my pilot suit since bandwidth was added. I drop some on buildings or run a mCRU in my DS. I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.
Omega Black Zero Pure Evil. Capital Punishment. 166	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:29:00 - [132] - Quote Commando has best the AV specialization potential, double swarm launchers... swarm launcher and plasma cannon... I do agree, however, that each role (with the exception of Sentinels) should be providing a minor degree of support alongside the logi. The logi is intended to be the beast of burden, taking the main load of support, but easing that load puts your team in a better position to succeed if everyone can provide minor support. One logi is just one man, and you aren't always going to have more than one, at least in pubs and FW
Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:33:00 - [133] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: D, you have the ability to "perform" any role from any suit now, as BW is. Are you as effective at it than suits designed to optimize that role? No, and you shouldn't be. Thats why suit base specialization exists. As far as raising the BW limits for SAC, why? They have enough to self-support at a basic level OR weaponize further, as you've proven repeatedly. It just isn't enough BW to do both, simultaneously. Just like how none of my Logi suits can generate passive scans low enough and far enough to detect dampened scouts. If I want to do that, I need a scout frame and to sacrifice most of my Logi gear. My position is this: bandwidth is fine, but it was implemented in an extreme way, resulting in a conundrum of mutual exclusivity: AssaultContemplator wrote: Do I help my team with that uplink right now, or do I perform my job better with an RE? Someone who has used their SP to spec into assault should ideally be able to focus on assaulting, not sacrifice their hard earned suit bandwidth because there aren't enough logis in the player base. This is where I say, a role should be able to perform the duties related to that role at a peak level. Due to the lack of logis, we should all be able to lend a hand and contribute above and beyond by only a minimal amount. But then we should be able to return to our role and perform it fully without the loss of job effectiveness.
Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:39:00 - [134] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: There are still too many uplinks being placed on the map by ppl who know to do that. No uplinks doesn't mean bandwidth is bad, it means too many people are not informed about how to play the game. There could be a different inference: other roles already have the equipment fitted that is important to getting their job done, and nobody wants to sacrifice their own effectiveness to help out the team. If they could drop an uplink and return to their job as usual, then that might change the situation. I'm not saying bandwidth is bad. I'm saying it is slightly too tight.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 723	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:49:00 - [135] - Quote Clone D wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: D, you have the ability to "perform" any role from any suit now, as BW is. Are you as effective at it than suits designed to optimize that role? No, and you shouldn't be. Thats why suit base specialization exists. As far as raising the BW limits for SAC, why? They have enough to self-support at a basic level OR weaponize further, as you've proven repeatedly. It just isn't enough BW to do both, simultaneously. Just like how none of my Logi suits can generate passive scans low enough and far enough to detect dampened scouts. If I want to do that, I need a scout frame and to sacrifice most of my Logi gear. My position is this: bandwidth is fine, but it was implemented in an extreme way, resulting in a conundrum of mutual exclusivity: AssaultContemplator wrote: Do I help my team with that uplink right now, or do I perform my job better with an RE? Someone who has used their SP to spec into assault should ideally be able to focus on assaulting, not sacrifice their hard earned suit bandwidth because there aren't enough logis in the player base. This is where I say, a role should be able to perform the duties related to that role at a peak level. Due to the lack of logis, we should all be able to lend a hand and contribute above and beyond by only a minimal amount. But then we should be able to return to our role and perform it fully without the loss of job effectiveness. In terms of bandwidth, this would mean relaxing it by about 4 bw per dropsuit. But this, again, already proves the point contrary to your arguement. That assault, if absolutley need be, CAN drop that precious link should his discretion determine its neccessity. Does that commit his equipment capability? Yes. Does that subsequently render him battlefield useless? No. He still has his LW, his SA and his G. In addition to whatever his base+mods stats create. He can continue assaulting, minus the committed equipment. Try it like this: Assault Dilemma wrote: Hm..... Should I run my AR, and gain range but reduced alpha damage in CQ OR Should I run my SG and be **** at range but a scythe in CQ?? Decisons, decisions... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 723	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:52:00 - [136] - Quote Omega Black Zero wrote: Commando has best the AV specialization potential, double swarm launchers... swarm launcher and plasma cannon...if you're just going to camp one area like a ****** and hope that a dropship flies near. I do agree, however, that each role (with the exception of Sentinels) should be providing a minor degree of support alongside the logi. The logi is intended to be the beast of burden, taking the main load of support, but easing that load puts your team in a better position to succeed if everyone can provide minor support. One logi is just one man, and you aren't always going to have more than one, at least in pubs and FW FTFY XD Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:53:00 - [137] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Clone D wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: D, you have the ability to "perform" any role from any suit now, as BW is. Are you as effective at it than suits designed to optimize that role? No, and you shouldn't be. Thats why suit base specialization exists. As far as raising the BW limits for SAC, why? They have enough to self-support at a basic level OR weaponize further, as you've proven repeatedly. It just isn't enough BW to do both, simultaneously. Just like how none of my Logi suits can generate passive scans low enough and far enough to detect dampened scouts. If I want to do that, I need a scout frame and to sacrifice most of my Logi gear. My position is this: bandwidth is fine, but it was implemented in an extreme way, resulting in a conundrum of mutual exclusivity: AssaultContemplator wrote: Do I help my team with that uplink right now, or do I perform my job better with an RE? Someone who has used their SP to spec into assault should ideally be able to focus on assaulting, not sacrifice their hard earned suit bandwidth because there aren't enough logis in the player base. This is where I say, a role should be able to perform the duties related to that role at a peak level. Due to the lack of logis, we should all be able to lend a hand and contribute above and beyond by only a minimal amount. But then we should be able to return to our role and perform it fully without the loss of job effectiveness. In terms of bandwidth, this would mean relaxing it by about 4 bw per dropsuit. But this, again, already proves the point contrary to your arguement. That assault, if absolutley need be, CAN drop that precious link should his discretion determine its neccessity. Does that commit his equipment capability? Yes. Does that subsequently render him battlefield useless? No. He still has his LW, his SA and his G. In addition to whatever his base+mods stats create. He can continue assaulting, minus the committed equipment. Try it like this: Assault Dilemma wrote: Hm..... Should I run my AR, and gain range but reduced alpha damage in CQ OR Should I run my SG and be **** at range but a scythe in CQ?? Decisons, decisions... But his effectiveness suffers because he had to give up an important tool in order to help someone else with their job. Do we need to consider an analogy to the welfare system? Some people aren't doing their jobs for whatever reason. Everyone else contributes out of their own hard earned cash. If we don't loosen bandwidth just the tiniest little bit, then we just created a welfare system in Dust. All the other roles have to sacrifice the equipment that they need, in order to help out the logis.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 723	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:03:00 - [138] - Quote Except that should any individual find themselves without ammo or a spawnpoint they have the option of hacking a CRU or Supply Depot. Just like if there isn't enough AV on the field, any individual has the option of acking and using a turret. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RayRay James Titans of Phoenix 892	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:05:00 - [139] - Quote Clone D wrote: RayRay James wrote: Clone D wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Proxies are one option, one that to be effective requires as many proxies as you can lay down, meaning no links, hives or remotes. It seens like a poor tradeoff for a logi to do this. Who is supposed to lay proxies now? Can you describe a strategy that makes sense? My logi with proto proxies, RE and nanohive work great in certain scenarios. Get me on the bridge map with that suit and unless the tank is paying fantastic attention there's no more tank. Hey RayRay! Thanks for your feedback on this. I'm trying to learn how people are using proxies nowadays. How many proxies do you deploy? What do you do afterward? Can't speak for everyone, but lets take my bridge map for example. My demolitions logi has a proto PE, Advanced, PE, Proto rep nanohive and proto RE. I'll drop out as many PE in a cluster as allowed with each type (I think it totals 7). Since tankers rarely turn around and come back across the map (They usually make a big circle around the map), I'll watch once or twice and see which way they prefer to go and then drop my RE's just past the PEs. If the tanker survives the PEs, the REs are there to finish the job. After that, it's resupply with my nanohive if there's no supply depot. If there is a supply depot I usually switch out of the suit for one of my many other logi fits. If I have to stay in my demolitions suit, I play "hide and go seek then destroy" because it's also dampener/speed fit
RayRay James Titans of Phoenix 892	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:06:00 - [140] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: RayRay James wrote: Combat oriented people pushed to have the needle nerf installed. Sure WP Farming happened, but get over it. People stopped playing logi because of it. Bandwidth was introduced because CCP wanted it, not Logi's Loss of logis from previous nerfs means less logis on the field. I still run a link, needle, rep milita suit as my main and a pro logi when I want to have fun. I have droplink suits, nanohive suits, and every kind of equipment suit a logi should have for any ocassion. I can bring out the droplink suit, get dead, and spawn in with a different fit because bandwidth transfers over. Ultimately, the problem isn't any of the changes. It's that the changes made people leave the role. Less logis = less equipment. Also, assaults and scouts have equipment slots. suck it up and use them. Us logis wont mind an extra droplink or hive. This I don't think is too far off. D, you have the ability to "perform" any role from any suit now, as BW is. Are you as effective at it than suits designed to optimize that role? No, and you shouldn't be. Thats why suit base specialization exists. As far as raising the BW limits for SAC, why? They have enough to self-support at a basic level OR weaponize further, as you've proven repeatedly. It just isn't enough BW to do both, simultaneously. Just like how none of my Logi suits can generate passive scans low enough and far enough to detect dampened scouts. If I want to do that, I need a scout frame and to sacrifice most of my Logi gear. And remember, I am the guy who argued vehemently against BW being added the minute the topic was bluestickied. Actually, I have a logi suit that gets down to 27dB. Doesn't get everything, but most people don't go for true damp scouts. If they do, they win. If they don't, I win.

RayRay James Titans of Phoenix 894	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:11:00 - [141] - Quote Clone D wrote: But his effectiveness suffers because he had to give up an important tool in order to help someone else with their job. Do we need to consider an analogy to the welfare system? Some people aren't doing their jobs for whatever reason. Everyone else contributes out of their own hard earned cash. If we don't loosen bandwidth just the tiniest little bit, then we just created a welfare system in Dust. All the other roles have to sacrifice the equipment that they need, in order to help out the logis. Dust is a game of sacrifices. You make the decision to help the logi or help yourself. You get to make this decision every time you die or pass a supply depot. If you're in an assault, throw a link, and die. Come back in the assault with the REs. The link will stay active until you toss out your REs. At that point, you're making the active decision that your REs are more important at that moment that your link was. Bandwidth makes you make decisions. Sometimes those decisions suck.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5095	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:12:00 - [142] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: And remember, I am the guy who argued vehemently against BW being added the minute the topic was bluestickied. Ahh.. That made my day, Thank you! Anyway... Back to the grind here.. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:20:00 - [143] - Quote RayRay James wrote: Clone D wrote: RayRay James wrote: Clone D wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Proxies are one option, one that to be effective requires as many proxies as you can lay down, meaning no links, hives or remotes. It seens like a poor tradeoff for a logi to do this. Who is supposed to lay proxies now? Can you describe a strategy that makes sense? My logi with proto proxies, RE and nanohive work great in certain scenarios. Get me on the bridge map with that suit and unless the tank is paying fantastic attention there's no more tank. Hey RayRay! Thanks for your feedback on this. I'm trying to learn how people are using proxies nowadays. How many proxies do you deploy? What do you do afterward? Can't speak for everyone, but lets take my bridge map for example. My demolitions logi has a proto PE, Advanced, PE, Proto rep nanohive and proto RE. I'll drop out as many PE in a cluster as allowed with each type (I think it totals 7). Since tankers rarely turn around and come back across the map (They usually make a big circle around the map), I'll watch once or twice and see which way they prefer to go and then drop my RE's just past the PEs. If the tanker survives the PEs, the REs are there to finish the job. After that, it's resupply with my nanohive if there's no supply depot. If there is a supply depot I usually switch out of the suit for one of my many other logi fits. If I have to stay in my demolitions suit, I play "hide and go seek then destroy" because it's also dampener/speed fit So it sounds like you are tracking the tanks you destroy, and setting your explosives in the sweet spot on a per tank basis. Then when the threat is removed you go do something else. What happens when you set your mines in the sweet spot and then the tank never rolls back through? Do you give up, or go chasing the tank around the map? Do you ever use the strategy where you deploy a minefield in a known trafficked area and then go do something else, or do you always stay with your minefield?
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 5095	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:23:00 - [144] - Quote Clone D wrote: Have you taken algebra? Still laughing... If only you knew... clone D wrote: {same statement repeats about each class} Oh. my. GOD! I can't even... It's just... Wow. Seriously? That's your counter-argument? It does not matter which suit you are talking about! No matter which suit it is, if it is working as you describe, ITS BROKEN. Every suit should be viable and unquestionably, with no room for debate, superior in every major aspect of its designated role. End of story. Honestly, I've lost all hope here. (The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
Oswald Banecroft II Muteki Armati Virium 15	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:27:00 - [145] - Quote I have a totally opposite experience. I join a match and spawn as an Amarr Logi but find that everyone on my team, including Ripley Riley's cat, are spamming uplinks left and right. I am hardly able to do my job because of it. Rarely do I get into a match with a team that isn't doing that. At least, ever since bandwidth. Oddly, before bandwidth, it was the reverse for me. Fortune does not seem to pity Dust players.
Clone D 1299	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:28:00 - [146] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Clone D wrote: Have you taken algebra? Still laughing... If only you knew... clone D wrote: {same statement repeats about each class} Oh. my. GOD! I can't even... It's just... Wow. Seriously? That's your counter-argument? It does not matter which suit you are talking about! No matter which suit it is, if it is working as you describe, ITS BROKEN. Every suit should be viable and unquestionably, with no room for debate, superior in every major aspect of its designated role. End of story. Honestly, I've lost all hope here. This is where theory and art divide. Some players can take a suit and use it artfully for something that it was not intended for. Does that make it wrong? Why have you given up hope? It's like you're more interested in being a hard a$$ than admitting that human creativity can be an amazing and inspiring thing.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 724	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:36:00 - [147] - Quote RayRay James wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: RayRay James wrote: Combat oriented people pushed to have the needle nerf installed. Sure WP Farming happened, but get over it. People stopped playing logi because of it. Bandwidth was introduced because CCP wanted it, not Logi's Loss of logis from previous nerfs means less logis on the field. I still run a link, needle, rep milita suit as my main and a pro logi when I want to have fun. I have droplink suits, nanohive suits, and every kind of equipment suit a logi should have for any ocassion. I can bring out the droplink suit, get dead, and spawn in with a different fit because bandwidth transfers over. Ultimately, the problem isn't any of the changes. It's that the changes made people leave the role. Less logis = less equipment. Also, assaults and scouts have equipment slots. suck it up and use them. Us logis wont mind an extra droplink or hive. This I don't think is too far off. D, you have the ability to "perform" any role from any suit now, as BW is. Are you as effective at it than suits designed to optimize that role? No, and you shouldn't be. Thats why suit base specialization exists. As far as raising the BW limits for SAC, why? They have enough to self-support at a basic level OR weaponize further, as you've proven repeatedly. It just isn't enough BW to do both, simultaneously. Just like how none of my Logi suits can generate passive scans low enough and far enough to detect dampened scouts. If I want to do that, I need a scout frame and to sacrifice most of my Logi gear. And remember, I am the guy who argued vehemently against BW being added the minute the topic was bluestickied. Actually, I have a logi suit that gets down to 27dB. Doesn't get everything, but most people don't go for true damp scouts. If they do, they win. If they don't, I win. Exactly my point. Sacrifice made, gain =/= to performance of optimized suit for role. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RayRay James Titans of Phoenix 895	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:40:00 - [148] - Quote Clone D wrote: So it sounds like you are tracking the tanks you destroy, and setting your explosives in the sweet spot on a per tank basis. Then when the threat is removed you go do something else. What happens when you set your mines in the sweet spot and then the tank never rolls back through? Do you give up, or go chasing the tank around the map? Do you ever use the strategy where you deploy a minefield in a known trafficked area and then go do something else, or do you always stay with your minefield? I've abandoned plenty a mine field. Tank gets destroyed before I get to kill it, for example. In that scenario, if there's a supply depot near by, I'll switch to a different logi suit. If i swap down to militia, some of theos PE/REs get destroyed, if I stay proto, they stick around. I've had instances where I'll have abandoned a mine field, gone and supported a different point only to see +50, +50, +50 5 minutes after the fact because I stayed in a proto suit but didn't deploy any more equipment yet. If there's no supply depot i switch to "hide and go seek and destroy" mode until I die, then the same scenario plays out as above.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 724	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:42:00 - [149] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: And remember, I am the guy who argued vehemently against BW being added the minute the topic was bluestickied. Ahh.. That made my day, Thank you! Anyway; Back to this guy... LOL, then or now? Either way, I'm glad to hear you're stoked a little and want to ensure you aren't getting my position twisted: I ***** hate *** bandwidth. But I don't agree with D in tweaking the values, aside from buffing the out of Logi BW. Title this thread, "** Bandwidth, it HAS to GO" and all I would post would be, "Signed, +1". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
REDBACK96USMC Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 125	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:51:00 - [150] - Quote Clone D wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Solution: get in a squad. Maybe you can assist me with resolving this technical problem: Whenever I am in a squad, I experience huge amounts of lag. It's about double the amount of lag that I usually experience. Whenever I am on comms in a squad, I experience even more lag to the point that I cannot tell what is happening in the game and I just listen in to my squad to see what is happening during that battle. What can I do to fix that? I have a 25 Mbps connection with <1 ms jitter and my ps3 is fully operational and running a SSD. I use the America server (which experience shows gives me the least amount of lag). I adjusted my ps3 settings for optimal networking capabilities. I have an ethernet cable directly connected to my ps3. Oh, if there is no resolution to this problem, then is it okay with you if some people don't play in squads? Post a traceroute to the servers.



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