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The Burst Rifle Conundrum (A theory as to why it sucks)

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Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7426	Posted - 2014.12.13 02:01:00 - [1] - Quote Kay, so, here we go. Get ready for math. Here's the issue: Burst AR's Rate of Fire isn't matching up with it's Burst Fire Delay. Essentially, it says 1000 RPM in the fitting screen but that's not how we calculate damage on a burst weapon, so both Protofits.com and CCP Rattati's Hotfix Delta Chart are, according to theory, incorrect. I'll explain why. In CCP Rattati's Chart, the Allotek Burst Rifle sits just above 600 DPS. This is -far- away from it's actual performance in game, however, and the reason being is because when you take it's base Rate of Fire (1000 RPM) and divide it by 60 (seconds in a minute) you'll get 16.66... <--- Repeating decimal. Now, if you multiply that by it's base damage (36.4) you get the DPS readout that's displayed in both Protofits and Rattati's Chart: 606.66... So, let's look at that mathematically. 1000 (rounds per minute) ++ 60 (seconds in a minute) = 16.66... (rounds per second.) 16.66 (rounds per second) * 36.40 (damage per round) = 606.66...(Damage Per Second) Looks good, right? Except, it's not an automatic. That DPS value would be true if it were, but since it's not, we have to account for a brief fire delay between each burst. So, I tried it out. I emptied out magazine after magazine after magazine and used a stop-watch to see how long it took to empty out the entire clip (because I know you guys hate it being called a clip ). The result was an average of 2.65 bursts per second. Which essentially means that... 60 rounds ++ 4 rounds per burst = 15 bursts per magazine 15 bursts over an average of 5.66 seconds = 2.65 bursts per second 33.09 damage * 4 rounds = 145.6 damage per burst 145.6 damage per burst multiplied by average of 2.65 bursts per second = 385.84 damage per second. Which is about 220.82 DPS off the mark and about 67.36 DPS -LESS- than the Duvolle Assault Rifle. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions
Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5512	Posted - 2014.12.13 02:04:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Kay, so, here we go. Get ready for math. Here's the issue: Burst AR's Rate of Fire isn't matching up with it's Burst Fire Delay. Essentially, it says 1000 RPM in the fitting screen but that's not how we calculate damage on a burst weapon, so both Protofits.com and CCP Rattati's Hotfix Delta Chart are, according to theory, incorrect. I'll explain why. In CCP Rattati's Chart, the Allotek Burst Rifle sits just above 600 DPS. This is -far- away from it's actual performance in game, however, and the reason being is because when you take it's base Rate of Fire (1000 RPM) and divide it by 60 (seconds in a minute) you'll get 16.66... <--- Repeating decimal. Now, if you multiply that by it's base damage (36.4) you get the DPS readout that's displayed in both Protofits and Rattati's Chart: 606.66... So, let's look at that mathematically. 1000 (rounds per minute) ++ 60 (seconds in a minute) = 16.66... (rounds per second.) 16.66 (rounds per second) * 36.40 (damage per round) = 606.66...(Damage Per Second) Looks good, right? Except, it's not an automatic. That DPS value would be true if it were, but since it's not, we have to account for a brief fire delay between each burst. So, I tried it out. I emptied out magazine after magazine after magazine and used a stop-watch to see how long it took to empty out the entire clip (because I know you guys hate it being called a clip ). The result was an average of 2.65 bursts per second. Which essentially means that... 60 rounds ++ 4 rounds per burst = 15 bursts per magazine 15 bursts over an average of 5.66 seconds = 2.65 bursts per second 33.09 damage * 4 rounds = 145.6 damage per burst 145.6 damage per burst multiplied by average of 2.65 bursts per second = 385.84 damage per second. Which is about 220.82 DPS off the mark and about 67.36 DPS -LESS- than the Duvolle Assault Rifle. Oh, huh, interesting. I'd actually started using the Burst AR again and had some success, but I have felt that the burst delay is making the DPS lower than it should be. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1381	Posted - 2014.12.13 02:10:00 - [3] - Quote Ok, I can get behind the logic. Did you run a similar experiment on the CR? No one thinks its underperforming so I was curious how the he math plays out on this. Next question, what's the simplest fix? Increase damage per shot to about 36? "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7426	Posted - 2014.12.13 02:11:00 - [4] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Ok, I can get behind the logic. Did you run a similar experiment on the CR? No one thinks its underperforming so I was curious how the he math plays out on this. Next question, what's the simplest fix? Increase damage per shot to about 36? It's actually 36.40 right now, I just made a typo. Lemme fix that. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7426	Posted - 2014.12.13 02:32:00 - [5] - Quote Using a Boundless Combat Rifle using the same methods: 54 rounds / 3 rounds per burst = 18 bursts per magazine 18 bursts over an average of 3.91 seconds = 4.60 bursts per second 29.70 damage * 3 rounds = 89.1 damage per burst *89.1 damage per burst 4.60 bursts per second = 410.13 damage per second** EDIT: BEARING IN MIND that this is entirely anecdotal evidence and my ability to fire a weapon may be different than someone elses, let alone if they're using a modded controller. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 13542	Posted - 2014.12.13 02:53:00 - [6] - Quote Thanks, you have given me the necessary clues to take it further! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1381	Posted - 2014.12.13 02:56:00 - [7] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Using a Boundless Combat Rifle using the same methods: 54 rounds / 3 rounds per burst = 18 bursts per magazine 18 bursts over an average of 3.91 seconds = 4.60 bursts per second 29.70 damage * 3 rounds = 89.1 damage per burst *89.1 damage per burst 4.60 bursts per second = 410.13 damage per second** EDIT: BEARING IN MIND that this is entirely anecdotal evidence and my ability to fire a weapon may be different than someone elses, let alone if they're using a modded controller. Good work, Aeon. This fits with my subjective assessment of the Burst vs CR pretty well. Increase the Burst damage a bit and up its ammo in the magazine a little and I think that would be a good start point. I would like a shade more range but the damage and ammo increase might do well enough. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7430	Posted - 2014.12.13 03:47:00 - [8] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Using a Boundless Combat Rifle using the same methods: 54 rounds / 3 rounds per burst = 18 bursts per magazine 18 bursts over an average of 3.91 seconds = 4.60 bursts per second 29.70 damage * 3 rounds = 89.1 damage per burst *89.1 damage per burst 4.60 bursts per second = 410.13 damage per second** EDIT: BEARING IN MIND that this is entirely anecdotal evidence and my ability to fire a weapon may be different than someone elses, let alone if they're using a modded controller. Good work, Aeon. This fits with my subjective assessment of the Burst vs CR pretty well. Increase the Burst damage a bit and up its ammo in the magazine a little and I think that would be a good start point. I would like a shade more range but the damage and ammo increase might do well enough. IMO, having a low range is a signature of the Gallentean philosophy. Low range / High damage. It should definitely hit harder, that's for certain, even if it doesn't have the same kind of fire-rate which is what the Minmatar are all about. Fire rate could stay the same if it just packed more punch. Bringing the Allotek up to 37.5 damage per round at 3 bursts per second would put it's DPS at around 450. Just shy of the Duvolle Assault Rifle's. That's a fairly decent starting point that we can tweak in either direction, I feel. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions
TIMMY DAVIS Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 58	Posted - 2014.12.13 04:00:00 - [9] - Quote not that it's related to performance, but the sound it makes seems to be three shots. If you update the burst to 5 shots, you might want to check the sound and make sure its what you want. -- Pulling the trigger on a CR seems faster than on the Burst AR between bursts. I tap the button three times and the CR shoots three bursts. With the B AR I tap the button once and again and again, it's shoot, delay, shoot. -- Also when using the CR, it seems like the shots go to the same target, the same point. With the Burst it seems like they are more wide spread (dispersion?) even though I'm a 4 sharpshooter for both. Consequently the CR seems more accurate and seems to do more damage. And I'm not talking about strafing, I'm just talking about a stationary target. Thanks for reading this.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 1220	Posted - 2014.12.13 04:31:00 - [10] - Quote Pretty much what's happening as that it's hard not to oversample the weapon. That is: When you pull the trigger during the burst, it will not fire one directly afterwards, you have to finish the burst before and re-pull the trigger before it will register that you want to fire again, and that takes time. With the long burst period of the weapon, it's very difficult to find the proper rhythm, especially so when under fire. The CR overcomes this as it has a very short firing period and will fire nearly as fast as you can pull the trigger. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny

Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 552	Posted - 2014.12.13 05:40:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks, you have given me the necessary clues to take it further! "Burst AR is OP" tears coming in 5...4...3... Stand by for NERF BAT. AKA - StarVenger
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2596	Posted - 2014.12.13 07:41:00 - [12] - Quote Framerate can also play a huge factor Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 13786	Posted - 2014.12.13 10:40:00 - [13] - Quote Wait... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIT. I never bothered to check the math, I always assumed the DPS includes the burst delay! This is quite the large oversight considering the Burst AR has a higher delay with only a marginal increase for DPS (That is accounted for by the lower range). Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7436	Posted - 2014.12.13 10:42:00 - [14] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Framerate can also play a huge factor Sure, but these tests were done inside the MCC on domination matches. Framearate wouldnt be too badly a factor. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 13563	Posted - 2014.12.13 11:35:00 - [15] - Quote now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 593	Posted - 2014.12.13 11:51:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? Give us data. Speculating from here, i'd say its the - 20 profile vs armor. The SCR can make up for it by firing a charge shot. The ASCR just has you pew pewing away, ineffectually. You can - up the DPS - play with the damage profile (which seems fine IMO) - Tweak both ROF and clip size. It will indrectly up the dps, and still reward youfor having good sustained aim. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 389	Posted - 2014.12.13 12:43:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? We no do math good like you and I
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1758	Posted - 2014.12.13 13:13:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? The AScR is honestly just inferior to the std scr and its charge functionality. The AScR might have been a decent 'fallback' weapon if it didn't overheat but because it does its much better to work with the scr and regulate fire. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 13569	Posted - 2014.12.13 14:12:00 - [19] - Quote the fix for the ascr is not to add new amarr weapons. Also, please base any comparisons to the other faction assault variants, not the scrambler rifle. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cavani1EE7 Murphys-Law 594	Posted - 2014.12.13 14:18:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? The AScR should be Amarrians' first choice for CQC, hence why there is currently no reason in using it when you have the ScR that it's even better at CQC, when it's designed to be a mid-long range weapon. You either buff it to heaven or you nerf ScR's CQC capability, or any kind of buff you want to put on it won't make it as used. Making the damage profile more versatile by lowering it to +15% \| -15% would also be an idea. Take a bow

Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2677	Posted - 2014.12.13 14:32:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? It's the kick/dispersion in ADS that makes it tough to use at range. I think this was tweaked some before, and I've not used it a ton since then. It's still far from precise though (although I've read theat it actually IS precise and the screen shake is all cosmetic). Let's look at it objectively: it's got the worst damage profile, heat mechanics, much worse alpha than the ScR (as it should be), is longer range, but it's difficult to be accurate at range. It's a lot like the aborted twin of the RR. In ADS, the RR has better range, the best damage profile for finishing an opponent, both have accuracy issues. I'm having a really hard time thinking of a situation I'd rather have a AScR than a RR (maybe for taking out a Caldari Assault in the open at 30m). The AScR is the only assault variant without an iron sight. Perhaps it make sense to have it be the precision choice. This may be a bad idea, but consider a small damage buff, a good precision buff, maybe a small ADS zoom buff, and then increase the heat buildup to make that more of a factor for the weapon. Best PvE idea ever!
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3959	Posted - 2014.12.13 14:36:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? For the AScR you could buff the rate of fire since this would increase the DPS and rounds fired before overheat without increasing the total damage per clip. Putting it at or close to the 800 RPM of the Gallente Assault rifle may yield the results you are looking for. Another thought is to take a page from the scrambler pistol and buff the headshot damage modifier or some combination of the above. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7437	Posted - 2014.12.13 14:39:00 - [23] - Quote I havent used the ASCR in a long time, plan on using it when I get home from work to better assess it in the now. Imo, the vanilla SCR is just a better option. Ability to charge shot is great but you can also hammer away at the trigger to get DPS similar to ASCR puts out. I seriously doubt the damage profile has much to do with it because if that were the case the SCR would have similar issues. The SCR is just comparably better. BUT if you only want to compare it to Assault variants, then Id say its primary issue is that it just doesnt feel like an Assault variant. Thing kicks like a mule and the muzzle flash gets in the way of what youre aiming at. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1396	Posted - 2014.12.13 14:47:00 - [24] - Quote Yas this is the problem with the Burst AR i just didn't know what it was called. The BuAR needs CR-like delay to make it better than it is now Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1396	Posted - 2014.12.13 14:49:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? lol Kick is a problem And it just feels weak. Maybe amp up the ROF or damage? Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2677	Posted - 2014.12.13 14:51:00 - [26] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I seriously doubt the damage profile has much to do with it because if that were the case the SCR would have similar issues. The SCR is just comparably better. The ScR and the ScP have the alpha damage to overcome their profiles. The LR can get to crazy DPS before it overheats to help melt armor. The AScR is the only "vanilla" weapon with the laser damage profile Best PvE idea ever!
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1155	Posted - 2014.12.13 15:20:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? Confluence of factors * Proliferation and degree of armor tank * Abundance of armor-based heavies * ASCR damage profile * Availability of superior substitutes (ScR, AR, Broken Breach AR)
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1385	Posted - 2014.12.13 15:45:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: the fix for the ascr is not to add new amarr weapons. Also, please base any comparisons to the other faction assault variants, not the scrambler rifle. Rattati, try the recoil / dispersion first. Bottom line...it the weapon jumps all over the place while firing lasers. Very counter-intuitive and dsetracts from in game handling. The damage is actually pretty good...the issue is stripping shields but hitting the armor wall. I'm not recommending to change the damage profile just making an observation. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2014.12.13 16:23:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: the fix for the ascr is not to add new amarr weapons. Also, please base any comparisons to the other faction assault variants, not the scrambler rifle. I think the reason people don't like the AScR is because the burst DPS on a regular scrambler is extremely high, and the Assault Variant just doesn't compete well with killing an enemy near-instantly. In terms of being unique, it has only punishment for managing heat poorly and an a fairly strong constant kick which makes it hard to use at ranges where it should beat the AR. You could certainly add some sort of bonus to the heat, whether it be reduced kick, increased RoF, or damage. Or a penalty to heat and buff the gun itself for an inverse effect. The AScR's kick really bothers me. I feel robbed that no matter how good my aim is, I can never use a weapon designed to outrange other close range weapons because of the kick, and can often miss a target I would've hit with just about any other weapon in the game. I use an Amarr Commando with LR and AScR and past 50m I'm using that LR, despite the AScR having 88m effective range. It's a minute part of the weapon, but I really would love it to have its ability to hit enemies from afar looked at because its DPS is lower than other assault weapons due to this extra range which it just can't use effectively.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1064	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:04:00 - [30] - Quote Dear Aeon Amadi, Rattati and Community, let me to offer some thoughts about high ROF tactical rifles. First of all, a scientific fact is that the most rapid muscle movement, which can perform a human being - an eye blink. The most rapid blinking of the eyes, which can be achieved in 20 seconds - 120/130ms, followed by a muscle fatigue. Let's see, what can make fingers of average players: This simple test shows the number of clicks made in 20 seconds. I performed this test as much as possible by focusing on the number of clicks, and here is my result: 378 max manual ROF. Of course, doing a similar exercise in the game, the player is unable to accurately aim. Thus, the player uses a macro or a turbo controller will always have an advantage over honest players, because it has the ability to aim accurately, without being distracted by pressing the shot button. The first step to bringing tactical rifles in the normal state should not be fine-tuning DPS, Range and Ammo clip, but eliminating the possibility unfair play. ROF should be set no higher than the maximum possible MANUAL ROF, around 350. Volley damage should be increased to achieve the necessary reasonable DPS. Thank you for your attention, sorry for bad english. Please support fair play!

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1388	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:11:00 - [31] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I seriously doubt the damage profile has much to do with it because if that were the case the SCR would have similar issues. The SCR is just comparably better. The ScR and the ScP have the alpha damage to overcome their profiles. The LR can get to crazy DPS before it overheats to help melt armor. The AScR is the only "vanilla" weapon with the laser damage profile VellOcet is correct on this I think. There is a pretty noticeable preformance difference when facing armor tank suits with the ASCR that the SCR can overcome. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 112	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:18:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? I haven't used the ASCR in ages, but I remember when I did, the only thought I had was, "Man this ting sucks compared to the SCR. If I was using the SCR, that guy would be dead." It felt inaccurate as it had too much dispersion (or perhaps kick) that made it feel inaccurate compared to the AR, and the SCR to make it feel fun and effective. Especially since there is no sharpshooter skill, and the Scrambler Rifle Operation skill doesn't reduce kick like it does with the other rifles. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1158	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:20:00 - [33] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I seriously doubt the damage profile has much to do with it because if that were the case the SCR would have similar issues. The SCR is just comparably better. The ScR and the ScP have the alpha damage to overcome their profiles. The LR can get to crazy DPS before it overheats to help melt armor. The AScR is the only "vanilla" weapon with the laser damage profile VellOcet is correct on this I think. There is a pretty noticeable preformance difference when facing armor tank suits with the ASCR that the SCR can overcome. Absolutely agreed. ScR is better able to overcome weakness vs armor than ASCR.
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 96	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:21:00 - [34] - Quote In terms of the ascr I don't use enough to say rattati, though best guess is it feels less accurate and it's damage is bad in current meta.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 112	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:26:00 - [35] - Quote John Psi wrote: Dear Aeon Amadi, Rattati and Community, let me to offer some thoughts about high ROF tactical rifles. First of all, a scientific fact is that the most rapid muscle movement, which can perform a human being - an eye blink. The most rapid blinking of the eyes, which can be achieved in 20 seconds - 120/130ms, followed by a muscle fatigue. Let's see, what can make fingers of average players: This simple test shows the number of clicks made in 20 seconds. I performed this test as much as possible by focusing on the number of clicks, and here is my result: 378 max manual ROF. Of course, doing a similar exercise in the game, the player is unable to accurately aim. Thus, the player uses a macro or a turbo controller will always have an advantage over honest players, because it has the ability to aim accurately, without being distracted by pressing the shot button. The first step to bringing tactical rifles in the normal state should not be fine-tuning DPS, Range and Ammo clip, but eliminating the possibility unfair play. ROF should be set no higher than the maximum possible MANUAL ROF, around 350. Volley damage should be increased to achieve the necessary reasonable DPS. Thank you for your attention, sorry for bad english. When you lower the ROF by too much (like the scrambler pistol of old) you can oversample the gun, and when you do that it feels extremely dissatisfying to use. When on my A game, I can get around 8 shots per second consistently, or 480RPM for the brief periods before I overheat the gun. This is while aiming accurately. There are others who claim higher input rates. In short, the weapon needs a high fire rate in order to make it feel fun to shoot (it sucks to pull the trigger and have nothing come out), and it's speeds are attainable briefly, which makes it very powerful in skilled hands. I feel this is how tactical weapons should be. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11693	Posted - 2014.12.13 19:24:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? For the aSCR, I would recommend making it have the least dispersion and the most precision out of all the assault variants. It is suppose to be laser-based weapon. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1064	Posted - 2014.12.13 19:25:00 - [37] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: When you lower the ROF by too much (like the scrambler pistol of old) you can oversample the gun, and when you do that it feels extremely dissatisfying to use. When on my A game, I can get around 8 shots per second consistently, or 480RPM for the brief periods before I overheat the gun. This is while aiming accurately. There are others who claim higher input rates. In short, the weapon needs a high fire rate in order to make it feel fun to shoot (it sucks to pull the trigger and have nothing come out), and it's speeds are attainable briefly, which makes it very powerful in skilled hands. I feel this is how tactical weapons should be. I totally agree with you, but: Hi / Low input problem - a separate issue. In any case we need to get rid of the outrageous use of macros. The superiority of using macros on tactical rifles are much higher than the possible DPS variance under different Hi / Low input. Please support fair play!
Monty Mole Clone Ametat Security Amarr Empire 261	Posted - 2014.12.13 21:57:00 - [38] - Quote there is not one weapon in dust that will come close to its stated rounds per minute stat, what you you gonna do about the rest of them. the one that suffers the most is the scrambler should we fix that also Jupiter's cock! It's a Mark VI... And we've got it by the ass!
emm kay G0DS AM0NG MEN 232	Posted - 2014.12.13 22:53:00 - [39] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Kay what's up? There is a reason you never see me in battle. it's because I see you first.
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 589	Posted - 2014.12.13 23:29:00 - [40] - Quote I find the ascr to be one of the most reliable hip-fire weapons in the game; really low dispersion and it's pretty easy to land most of your shots on even fast movin targets. Ads is a pain with the muzzle flash and perceived kick, perhaps tone both down and then remove the sight perhaps? In terms of raw numbers however it's definitely the armour meta; it shreds shield suits and matsuri frames in fairly short order. That being said, I run it on an Amarr commando with maxed relevant skills and a damage mod, so I'm boosting it's base damage by a fair proportion. You might want to tweak its RoF upwards so that it can deliver damage faster and bring its heat build up into play (it's very difficult to overheat currently). I'd shy away from a damage boost Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.

Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1402	Posted - 2014.12.14 01:05:00 - [41] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? It's the kick/dispersion/muzzle flash in ADS that makes it tough to use at range. I think this was tweaked some before, and I've not used it a ton since then. It's still far from precise though (although I've read that it actually IS precise and the screen shake is all cosmetic). Let's look at it objectively: it's got the worst damage profile, heat mechanics, much worse alpha than the ScR (as it should be), is longer range, but it's difficult to be accurate at range. It's a lot like the aborted twin of the RR. In ADS, the RR has better range, the best damage profile for finishing an opponent, both have accuracy issues. I'm having a really hard time thinking of a situation I'd rather have a AScR than a RR (maybe for taking out a Caldari Assault in the open at 30m). The AScR is the only assault variant without an iron sight. Perhaps it make sense to have it be the precision choice for the fully automatic rifles. This may be a bad idea, but consider a small damage buff, a good precision buff, maybe a small ADS zoom buff, and then increase the heat buildup to make that more of a factor for the weapon. yas Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1402	Posted - 2014.12.14 01:06:00 - [42] - Quote After testing the ASCR i can confidentally say that ASCR is one of the best guns at killing MLT minmatar light frames Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Meeko Fent True Illuminate 2295	Posted - 2014.12.15 04:42:00 - [43] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Kay, so, here we go. Get ready for math. Here's the issue: Burst AR's Rate of Fire isn't matching up with it's Burst Fire Delay. Essentially, it says 1000 RPM in the fitting screen but that's not how we calculate damage on a burst weapon, so both Protofits.com and CCP Rattati's Hotfix Delta Chart are, according to theory, incorrect. I'll explain why. In CCP Rattati's Chart, the Allotek Burst Rifle sits just above 600 DPS. This is -far- away from it's actual performance in game, however, and the reason being is because when you take it's base Rate of Fire (1000 RPM) and divide it by 60 (seconds in a minute) you'll get 16.66... <--- Repeating decimal. Now, if you multiply that by it's base damage (36.4) you get the DPS readout that's displayed in both Protofits and Rattati's Chart: 606.66... So, let's look at that mathematically. 1000 (rounds per minute) ++ 60 (seconds in a minute) = 16.66... (rounds per second.) 16.66 (rounds per second) * 36.40 (damage per round) = 606.66...(Damage Per Second) Looks good, right? Except, it's not an automatic. That DPS value would be true if it were, but since it's not, we have to account for a brief fire delay between each burst. So, I tried it out. I emptied out magazine after magazine after magazine and used a stop-watch to see how long it took to empty out the entire clip (because I know you guys hate it being called a clip ). The result was an average of 2.65 bursts per second. Which essentially means that... 60 rounds ++ 4 rounds per burst = 15 bursts per magazine 15 bursts over an average of 5.66 seconds = 2.65 bursts per second 33.09 damage * 4 rounds = 145.6 damage per burst 145.6 damage per burst multiplied by average of 2.65 bursts per second = 385.84 damage per second. Which is about 220.82 DPS off the mark and about 67.36 DPS -LESS- than the Duvolle Assault Rifle. Oh, huh, interesting. I'd actually started using the Burst AR again and had some success, but I have felt that the burst delay is making the DPS lower than it should be. I ran the BuAR for a bit. Tried the TAR and liked it more. It's not good in CQC cause hipfire, and it's not good in range cause burst kicks it off target quick-like. My opinion on it. The ScR and TAR are better in both because you can deal more hurt quickly, and instead of having your damage spread in several shots which can miss, it deals them all up front. I am the bluedot. And I will rise again.
Mr.Pepe Le Pew Art.of.Death VP Gaming Alliance 15	Posted - 2014.12.15 15:29:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? Fix the recoil on the ASCR and we have a weapon we can use. The damage is fine, the range will adjust itself once the recoil is tuned down. CEO / Art.of.Death We fight together now. We look forward to the future in Legion.
man- bear pig D3ATH CARD RUST415 95	Posted - 2014.12.15 15:44:00 - [45] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? It's the kick/dispersion/muzzle flash in ADS that makes it tough to use at range. I think this was tweaked some before, and I've not used it a ton since then. It's still far from precise though (although I've read that it actually IS precise and the screen shake is all cosmetic). Let's look at it objectively: it's got the worst damage profile, heat mechanics, much worse alpha than the ScR (as it should be), is longer range, but it's difficult to be accurate at range. It's a lot like the aborted twin of the RR. In ADS, the RR has better range, the best damage profile for finishing an opponent, both have accuracy issues. I'm having a really hard time thinking of a situation I'd rather have a AScR than a RR (maybe for taking out a Caldari Assault in the open at 30m). The AScR is the only assault variant without an iron sight. Perhaps it make sense to have it be the precision choice for the fully automatic rifles. This may be a bad idea, but consider a small damage buff, a good precision buff, maybe a small ADS zoom buff, and then increase the heat buildup to make that more of a factor for the weapon. This^^. If it were more accurate, I would use it more often. It's really the biggest flaw that limits the weapon. If you're worried that it would become a more powerful RR, give it an iron sight like most other assault weapon variants.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 698	Posted - 2014.12.15 16:53:00 - [46] - Quote Ok, the issue with the burst anything in this game boils down to one MAJOR thing, latency/lag. In a perfect environment with the same skilled players (both in and out of game), you would be fine. But the problem (that was very well illustrated by the video that shows the slower rate of fire for burst in a laggy facility) causes the ROF to drop considerably. THIS is your issue. Fix the framerate and you fix the problem. If you fix the rifle for the bad framerate, then you unbalance the rifle for non-laggy areas and it becomes OP. Don't fall for that trap. "But we can't account for the OP skillness of players who can just rapidly tap the fire key so damned fast..." Then buy a cheap $15 rapid fire controller from Walmart like I did and set it to press the trigger 15 times a second and hold the damned trigger down. Use that as your baseline for the capability of both auto-matic and burst fire weapons!!!! Jesus this level of quality assurance is a freaking no-brainer and you guys at CCP seem to be dunces at QA testing techniques. As for your stupidly lame comment on trying to solicit this community for "fixes" to the ASCR, are you really that deaf to what's going on? The reason you aren't hearing for it is because it really isn't that underpowered. I agree that it's not getting kills (ie the final killing blow), but that is because when everyone shoots at the same target, the ASCR is gonna remove all the shields and start to somewhat effectively plink away the armor, but the HMG's and combat rifles with their "spray bullets everywhere" mentality are gonna receive the killing blow. Thus the ASCR seems to be underpowered but it's not. It's more of a "teamwork" weapon than people realize.
zzZaXxx The Exemplars 700	Posted - 2014.12.15 17:26:00 - [47] - Quote The extra round per burst will help. But this makes it look like it could use a straight damage buff. While we're on problems with bursting, the CR is a bit UP atm and will only get more so with the balancing of armor/shields meta. Could we have a shorter burst interval for the CR?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5414	Posted - 2014.12.15 17:29:00 - [48] - Quote It would be easier to calculate accurate DPS is all Burst weapons acted like the Burst HMG and did not allow you to fire any faster by pulling the trigger repeatedly. But maybe that is just my personal bias talking, as tendon problems prevent me from using semi automatic weapons. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
thehellisgoingon The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 64	Posted - 2014.12.15 18:12:00 - [49] - Quote Burst AR. The red-headed ugly stepsister of the CR
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1417	Posted - 2014.12.16 01:13:00 - [50] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I seriously doubt the damage profile has much to do with it because if that were the case the SCR would have similar issues. The SCR is just comparably better. The ScR and the ScP have the alpha damage to overcome their profiles. The LR can get to crazy DPS before it overheats to help melt armor. The AScR is the only "vanilla" weapon with the laser damage profile Very good way to put it. Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 709	Posted - 2014.12.16 01:26:00 - [51] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: It would be easier to calculate accurate DPS is all Burst weapons acted like the Burst HMG and did not allow you to fire any faster by pulling the trigger repeatedly. But maybe that is just my personal bias talking, as tendon problems prevent me from using semi automatic weapons. I have an injury to my right hand that limits my trigger pulling ability (deals with tendons too). I have never been very good with Semi Auto weapons because of it. :) but the problem is also tied into my right thumb if you can believe it. Every time i pull the trigger my right thumb presses down or pulls the controls to the south east. I should have probably switched to KB/M years ago... but I've always just played with controllers. So... Logi works best for me most of the time. I just compensate by finding other roles to play, different weapons to use or tactics to employ that let me play on the same field as those will skills. - I could never snipe :) - Just glad to hear from another injured player that plays FPS anyway The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
Jathniel G I A N T 1323	Posted - 2014.12.16 01:54:00 - [52] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: the fix for the ascr is not to add new amarr weapons. Also, please base any comparisons to the other faction assault variants, not the scrambler rifle. I tried to propose a dps modification HERE. Here are some proposals again: I suggest the following damages: 34.10 HP - Militia Assault Scrambler Rifle 36.50 HP - CRD-9 Assault Scrambler Rifle 38.25 HP - Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle If those damages are too tiered then consider: 34.10 35.00 35.95 In the very LEAST these (Credit to Fizzer XCIV): MLT: 32.48 STD: 32.48 (doesn't exist) ADV: 34.10 PRO: 35.72 OR you can go with a significant range buff and recoil reduction to augment its nature of being an assault variant within the Tactical family. Or you can go real wild and give it like 50 per shot at 800 rpm, but make it overheat so fast, that only the Amarr Assault has any chance of using it reasonably. lol Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 5087	Posted - 2014.12.16 02:41:00 - [53] - Quote I'd either lower the zoom, or increase the range to get rid of the confusion of aiming down sights. Also, decrease delay between bursts a bit. I don't know what's so hard.
zzZaXxx The Exemplars 700	Posted - 2014.12.16 03:05:00 - [54] - Quote make the scope like SCR scope please
Fizzer XCIV Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 1368	Posted - 2014.12.16 03:19:00 - [55] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: make the scope like SCR scope please I'm in for giving some gallente weapons a Gallentean reflex sight. Just not the Amarrian one. The sight on the Amarrian weapon is purposely shaped a little like the Amarrian Signs of Faith. But not the 6th one on the far right... that's the Blood Raider symbol. And the 4th one is a little controversial as well... Please, make my Opus pretty...
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5435	Posted - 2014.12.16 14:18:00 - [56] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It would be easier to calculate accurate DPS is all Burst weapons acted like the Burst HMG and did not allow you to fire any faster by pulling the trigger repeatedly. But maybe that is just my personal bias talking, as tendon problems prevent me from using semi automatic weapons. I have an injury to my right hand that limits my trigger pulling ability (deals with tendons too). I have never been very good with Semi Auto weapons because of it. :) but the problem is also tied into my right thumb if you can believe it. Every time i pull the trigger my right thumb presses down or pulls the controls to the south east. I should have probably switched to KB/M years ago... but I've always just played with controllers. So... Logi works best for me most of the time. I just compensate by finding other roles to play, different weapons to use or tactics to employ that let me play on the same field as those will skills. - I could never snipe :) - Just glad to hear from another injured player that plays FPS anyway I wonder if this could be why I melee instead of firing 50% of the time when I try to use the Shotgun? I have the melee problem with other weapons to a lesser extent. If I could deactivate Melee it would significantly improve my gun game with certain weapons. I have found that the HMG seems to work best for me, even before it was fixed when everyone considered it UP. I still melee instead of firing sometimes, but not nearly as often as with other weapons. I did order some of these which gave me a better grip on the stick so that I did not have to press as hard when holding it with my thumb. This reduced the effect of my thumb spasms, thus reducing the frequency at which I missed shots due to unintentionally meleeing. It did not solve the problem, but it did help. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 705	Posted - 2014.12.16 14:59:00 - [57] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: It would be easier to calculate accurate DPS is all Burst weapons acted like the Burst HMG and did not allow you to fire any faster by pulling the trigger repeatedly. But maybe that is just my personal bias talking, as tendon problems prevent me from using semi automatic weapons. Hey you and me both buddy! Hence why I wish that CCP would freaking let us reconfigure the layout of the keyboard and mouse controls so that I don't have to keep screwing up my hand by trying to use a damned tiny ass plastic controller designed for some little 5 year old to use. But that's another rant I have. ;)
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 705	Posted - 2014.12.16 15:01:00 - [58] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It would be easier to calculate accurate DPS is all Burst weapons acted like the Burst HMG and did not allow you to fire any faster by pulling the trigger repeatedly. But maybe that is just my personal bias talking, as tendon problems prevent me from using semi automatic weapons. I have an injury to my right hand that limits my trigger pulling ability (deals with tendons too). I have never been very good with Semi Auto weapons because of it. :) but the problem is also tied into my right thumb if you can believe it. Every time i pull the trigger my right thumb presses down or pulls the controls to the south east. I should have probably switched to KB/M years ago... but I've always just played with controllers. So... Logi works best for me most of the time. I just compensate by finding other roles to play, different weapons to use or tactics to employ that let me play on the same field as those will skills. - I could never snipe :) - Just glad to hear from another injured player that plays FPS anyway KBM is a little better, but not much. CCP was stukpid and the set configurations squeeze all the controls into one spot and make it difficult to use as well. I wish they would just let us reconfigure which button does what like any other game does.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 706	Posted - 2014.12.16 15:19:00 - [59] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It would be easier to calculate accurate DPS is all Burst weapons acted like the Burst HMG and did not allow you to fire any faster by pulling the trigger repeatedly. But maybe that is just my personal bias talking, as tendon problems prevent me from using semi automatic weapons. I have an injury to my right hand that limits my trigger pulling ability (deals with tendons too). I have never been very good with Semi Auto weapons because of it. :) but the problem is also tied into my right thumb if you can believe it. Every time i pull the trigger my right thumb presses down or pulls the controls to the south east. I should have probably switched to KB/M years ago... but I've always just played with controllers. So... Logi works best for me most of the time. I just compensate by finding other roles to play, different weapons to use or tactics to employ that let me play on the same field as those will skills. - I could never snipe :) - Just glad to hear from another injured player that plays FPS anyway I wonder if this could be why I melee instead of firing 50% of the time when I try to use the Shotgun? I have the melee problem with other weapons to a lesser extent. If I could deactivate Melee it would significantly improve my gun game with certain weapons. I have found that the HMG seems to work best for me, even before it was fixed when everyone considered it UP. I still melee instead of firing sometimes, but not nearly as often as with other weapons. I did order some of these which gave me a better grip on the stick so that I did not have to press as hard when holding it with my thumb. This reduced the effect of my thumb spasms, thus reducing the frequency at which I missed shots due to unintentionally meleeing. It did not solve the problem, but it did help. I found that if you get the Split Fish controller from FragFX you can "remap" the melee to be something else (like shaking the controller) then this issue goes away. https://world.splitfish.com/fragfx-game-controllers/fragfx-shark-ps3-classic-ps3-pc-mac.html Here's a good in depth review of it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IWkOW1a8Ls I agree that it sucks for use in vehicles, however as pointed out in the video, you just have a standard PS3 controller sitting next to you and when you get into a vehicle grab the other controller and away you go, best of both worlds.... speaking of which, the PS3 recognizes the split fish as a "controller" and not KBM so you still get to take advantage of the aim assist if you want to. Oh and of course there is a rapid fire setting that you can adjust from slow/med/high rates.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5439	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:22:00 - [60] - Quote Nice... except I use a track ball rather than a mouse due to tendon issues.... Eventually maybe we will have Legion. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 710	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:22:00 - [61] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It would be easier to calculate accurate DPS is all Burst weapons acted like the Burst HMG and did not allow you to fire any faster by pulling the trigger repeatedly. But maybe that is just my personal bias talking, as tendon problems prevent me from using semi automatic weapons. I have an injury to my right hand that limits my trigger pulling ability (deals with tendons too). I have never been very good with Semi Auto weapons because of it. :) but the problem is also tied into my right thumb if you can believe it. Every time i pull the trigger my right thumb presses down or pulls the controls to the south east. I should have probably switched to KB/M years ago... but I've always just played with controllers. So... Logi works best for me most of the time. I just compensate by finding other roles to play, different weapons to use or tactics to employ that let me play on the same field as those will skills. - I could never snipe :) - Just glad to hear from another injured player that plays FPS anyway I wonder if this could be why I melee instead of firing 50% of the time when I try to use the Shotgun? I have the melee problem with other weapons to a lesser extent. If I could deactivate Melee it would significantly improve my gun game with certain weapons. I have found that the HMG seems to work best for me, even before it was fixed when everyone considered it UP. I still melee instead of firing sometimes, but not nearly as often as with other weapons. I did order some of these which gave me a better grip on the stick so that I did not have to press as hard when holding it with my thumb. This reduced the effect of my thumb spasms, thus reducing the frequency at which I missed shots due to unintentionally meleeing. It did not solve the problem, but it did help. Ha! I got a pair of them as well :) There have been a few controllers I have looked at that mod it in some way so I can shut down buttons and replace it with another button somewhere else on the controller - like underneath... but most of them were 360 controllers - and Sorry OP that this is way off topic. I got one... but it just never felt right in my hands.... but the advantage was not enough to force me to keep using it. So it collects dust. I haven't thought about it in a year or more. Since I'm coming back to dust maybe I'll break it back out and see if it works again and try to stick with it. :) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1087	Posted - 2014.12.22 13:54:00 - [62] - Quote Please check this nice post. Please support fair play!
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5515	Posted - 2014.12.22 15:48:00 - [63] - Quote Everyone of the threads that discuss burst type weapons ALWAYS have some dude bringing logic about the ability to abuse these types of weapons with modded controllers and they are always ignored for the most part. It's really strange. Only4-5KDRpubbiesCanRunADV24/7\|PCplyrsRunPRO&smashSTD/MLTplyrs24/7. ThisIsHowIt'sAlwaysBeen,ThereforeMustStayThisWay.
Jathniel G I A N T 1348	Posted - 2014.12.22 22:24:00 - [64] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Everyone of the threads that discuss burst type weapons ALWAYS have some dude bringing logic about the ability to abuse these types of weapons with modded controllers and they are always ignored for the most part. It's really strange. There are two positions when it comes to ignoring those claiming that modded controllers are a problem: 1. The RoF caps on most of Dust's weapons prevent any and all abuse from modded controllers. If someone bought a modded controller to abuse semi-auto weapons for example, he just wasted his money. He will not shoot any faster than someone's finger. He might have a slight edge in accuracy, but that person would gain no real advantage in fire rate. 2. Burst weapons are NOT semi-automatic. They have a minimum burst delay mechanism that operates independently of a weapon's fire rate cap. Hence why its better to time your presses with a burst weapon, than to simply spam (usually). Again, completely independent of fire rate and input speed. So those two things considered, when someone starts raising hell about modded controllers, they are basically the equivalent of an adult splashing and screaming about drowning in a kiddie pool. There's no actual threat. There's no actual abuse, because it simply can't exist. So that person gets ignored. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1411	Posted - 2014.12.23 15:24:00 - [65] - Quote After running the BuAR for about two weeks straight I can say that the only net positive from my perspective is the ammo increase. I actually really preferred the 4 shot burst because it gives you much more punch. The ROF is nice but not spectacular. All in all I would have preferred a smaller buff to ROF, keep the 4 shot burst, increase mag size, and minor dmg buff. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 4852	Posted - 2014.12.23 17:33:00 - [66] - Quote The damage buff to the ascr fixed it. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Jathniel G I A N T 1350	Posted - 2014.12.24 01:17:00 - [67] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: The damage buff to the ascr fixed it. Yeah, it's in a decent spot right now. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1668	Posted - 2015.01.04 12:49:00 - [68] - Quote John Psi wrote: . . ROF should be set no higher than the maximum possible MANUAL ROF, around 350. Volley damage should be increased to achieve the necessary reasonable DPS. . . First, your analysis is absolutely correct. Both the numbers and I salute that. Second, your supposed fix is wrong. I can safely say that it was already tested twice on Dust history. Did not work, ended on broken weapon with handling problems also on manual operation. The correct fix is: Even while allowing very high rof, penalise using that high rof by making the fire uncontrollable. Uncontrollable thru kick and dispersion (kick&d). That way firing series of shots trying to take more actual dps becomes counterproductive. The glad news is that this is already in effect in Dust, and working reasonably well! Pro-choice! For hazardous self-activated inertial dampeners! We want to live on the edge (((of MCC)))
Jathniel Ahrendee Mercenaries 1452	Posted - 2015.01.26 05:59:00 - [69] - Quote John Psi wrote: Dear Aeon Amadi, Rattati and Community, let me to offer some thoughts about high ROF tactical rifles. First of all, a scientific fact is that the most rapid muscle movement, which can perform a human being - an eye blink. The most rapid blinking of the eyes, which can be achieved in 20 seconds - 120/130ms, followed by a muscle fatigue. Let's see, what can make fingers of average players: This simple test shows the number of clicks made in 20 seconds. I performed this test as much as possible by focusing on the number of clicks, and here is my result: 378 max manual ROF. Of course, doing a similar exercise in the game, the player is unable to accurately aim. Thus, the player uses a macro or a turbo controller will always have an advantage over honest players, because it has the ability to aim accurately, without being distracted by pressing the shot button. The first step to bringing tactical rifles in the normal state should not be fine-tuning DPS, Range and Ammo clip, but eliminating the possibility unfair play. ROF should be set no higher than the maximum possible MANUAL ROF, around 350. Volley damage should be increased to achieve the necessary reasonable DPS. Thank you for your attention, sorry for bad english. No. Your evidence is anecdotal, and does not justify such a nerf. Why? Because... Here is my score... I am slightly faster than the fastest average of players with my trigger finger. This is on a mouse. And this is why I am often seen with a tactical AR. I can take a TAR or a SCR and eat absolutely anyone alive. However, I am NOWHERE as fast as a turbo controller. Turbo controllers can easily hit DOUBLE what I do. You simply cannot beat a machine. 600 RPM is just fine. Am I supposed to be nerfed? Simply because you're not as fast on the trigger as me? gtfo Retired
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1186	Posted - 2015.01.26 06:56:00 - [70] - Quote Maybe you want to add to description of tactical rifles "Rifles for geniuses whose fingers can work twice as better than the fingers of other people"? We are dealing with a fantastic projection of a real gun. The trigger of real rifle is not a button on the joystick. In the world there are no special forces consisting of soldiers that can pull the trigger 100 times in a row several times faster than ordinary fighters. If such soldiers existed it would be greatly slowed the development of automatic weapons. Please support fair play!

Jathniel Ahrendee Mercenaries 1452	Posted - 2015.01.26 09:13:00 - [71] - Quote John Psi wrote: Maybe you want to add to description of tactical rifles "Rifles for geniuses whose fingers can work twice as better than the fingers of other people"? We are dealing with a fantastic projection of a real gun. The trigger of real rifle is not a button on the joystick. In the world there are no special forces consisting of soldiers that can pull the trigger 100 times in a row several times faster than ordinary fighters. If such soldiers existed it would be greatly slowed the development of automatic weapons. If that was the description then that wouldn't be bad. At least the person will know before hand if the 'shoe is too big' for them so to speak. If one sucks with DMR weapons, then either practice, or don't use one; but don't penalize players that use tac weapons, under the pretense that you are fighting turbo controller spam. 600 RPM is well within human capability, and that is why it was selected. I demonstrated this. Twice. And that was the reason why the TAC weapons RPM cap was lowered to that point. Block the machines, and allow the humans. That's what it did. It is semi-auto for a reason. To allow you to deliver its firepower as best as you HUMANLY and accurately can. And as humans we are different from each other with different advantages. That is why some people can use a tactical weapon at an advantage, and others can't. I play as a marksman. That is what I am good at. I am accurate, precise, and I have a fast trigger finger. I do not demand that other niches be changed to suit or cater to me. This has nothing to do with turbo controllers or balancing weapons, and everything to do with refusing to recognize when someone is simply better than you at something. PS: I don't know what tangent you're running off on. A Gallente Assault Rifle is not a real gun. It never was, it never will be. All of this is a video game. All of this is fiction. There is no attempt, nor desire, to have the weapons in this game imitate physical reality. The very idea is absurd. But I will add, that you are wrong. There are people in real life, that can accurately fire a semi-automatic weapon with a higher rate of fire than other people. Observe this young guy firing a .50 cal Desert Eagle. vs. This old man who is clearly faster at the pull, and accurate with a sight. Don't use real-life as means for balancing a video game. Don't use solely anecdotal evidence as means of balancing a game. Retired
rasputin900000 Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 27	Posted - 2015.01.26 12:35:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: now where are the Amarrians to come fix the ASCR ? Didn't consider it broken, but my crd could use a little more damage, better accuracy, or increased clip size. Any one of the three would make it better but it only needs one of them not a combo of any of the three. What we really need is a fix for the turbo controller and the regular scr. Making it a charge to fire like a forge obviously with a quicker charge to fire time would weed out the people who want to use them from the people who use a modded controller for a crutch. I suppose rate of fire would have to be adjusted to fit the new configuration as well.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2330	Posted - 2015.01.26 15:32:00 - [73] - Quote It also has an acog sight. Which blows. For me personally, there isn't a single rifle in the game that can't be improved by removing the sights and using the iron sight. That's maybe just me perhaps. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 582	Posted - 2015.01.27 00:11:00 - [74] - Quote Theory - burst recoil. Lowering burst delay will allow it to be spammed like an assault rifle. Raising base damage will give it higher than planned headshot DPS. So change recoil. Each shot produces NO recoil, until the last shot in the burst which produces recoil equal to what the whole burst does combined. This will allow you to land all shots on target in very tight groupings on the head. Lots of crit damage for marksmen. Maybe raise damage per bullet a little to match other guns if necessary. Prevents spamming the gun as the last bullet produces enough recoil that people have to reacquire target. Reward skill with tons of headshot damage. My theory anyway. Great post OP. +1 from me.
hfderrtgvcd 1810	Posted - 2015.01.27 00:41:00 - [75] - Quote Its already better than the CR in every way except for range. it does not need a buff. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
rasputin900000 Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 28	Posted - 2015.01.27 04:39:00 - [76] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: It also has an acog sight. Which blows. For me personally, there isn't a single rifle in the game that can't be improved by removing the sights and using the iron sight. That's maybe just me perhaps. Yup that would be your personal preference, the fact is most combat weapons have some kind of alternate sighting other than iron sights acog, reflex which is the SCR, or laser type. You learn to shoot in basic with iron sights so in case you break your acog or have to pick up an enemy weapon, but your duty rating is the weapon you're issued. For example you may love a m-16 but if you shoot better with a m-4 that is the weapon you're issued same thing with sidearms you may want to carry a desert eagle but if you shoot a 9mm better that's what you're issued. Personal preference isn't a luxury you're afforded it's about the best fit for your skill.


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Pokemon master and Tekken Lord

Give me da iskiez

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Pokemon master and Tekken Lord

Give me da iskiez

Gk0 Scout yay :)

Pokemon master and Tekken Lord

Give me da iskiez

Gk0 Scout yay :)