SP is absolutely not a measure of "fps skill". The vets will be on equal ground in STD gear. Then there is no "proto" stomping. And an equal amount of good players on each side.

Obviously 100 and 200 are numbers out of thin air

I came into dust thinking it was like battlefield but when I played my first game it got better! It brought back my memories of MAG! (R.I.P.) so I continued playing and loved it until.....it took me out of the training mission. Then I was thrown in with players that have 6 months plus put into the game. At first I thought I just wasn't used to the game and the aiming so I kept my chin up and pushed on. Now I am 3 weeks in and I know the maps and my aiming is tighter but ow I'm putting a rail rifle clip into an enemy's back to only have them 3 shot me. Pretty unbalanced if you ask me. Plenty of good mmo fps have a skill system but even a new player can do some damage and have fun. Oh and the constant spawn killing is rather annoying. There should be away to play with players only in my range of sp. in general the game has good concepts and fun gameplay but how very unbalanced it is, it realy breaks the game for new players. I realy really want to love this game but I just can't find a reason too. I'm not into wasting 6 months to get enough sp to be able to have some fun. Veterans I understands why you play this game....new players you should just turn around before your ahead unless you have months to use and don't mind gettin slapped around most of your gynnan

This is why tiers must die.

A new player that joins the game and sees a tank or dropship decimating his team isn't going to have any idea how to effectively kill it. A new player isn't going to know how to get rid of uplinks in areas that are only reachable by dropship. These are the types of things new players suffer from....
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The people who go around claiming "protostomping" is the problem are merely suffering from confirmation bias. They believe that proto gear is the reason they die when it's actually organization and squad cohesiveness that they get dominated by.

We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse.

Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards
Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards
Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards

Thanks for your review, welcome in New Eden.

If you check out the Developer Roadmap you can see they are implementing a Tier Filter, if everything goes well (it won't, it never does) they can deploy it in early spring.

But please keep in mind, players who played this game since beta earned their stuff through fires and flames so it's pretty ok IMO to wreck a few days old newbies. HTFU

We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse.

Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards
Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards
Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards

Horse ****, players who played since beta have been playing players since beta. The SP disparity grows everyday. I can't say it can be helped, but I get real tired of people spouting the bullshit that beta vets had it just as hard. No one ha proto everything with all core skills in beta, players do now.

No tiericide scrub, get better.

Don't waste your SP and you'll be ready at 5mil to kill proto suit, and PC ready at 15mil.

Proto weapon > core > suit

your welcome. I don't use Proto in pubs and I get called a proto stomper. I don't even believe it exists anymore and you guys just cry about anything killing you.

All the AFKers will go to the tier that gives the highest payouts, probably tier 3,
so don't expect many opponents

By the way
can troops in the MCC be scanned?
I played a 12 versus 4 battle and I was flying around in my viper looking for them

I don't blame for staying in the dropship if they were outnumbered

We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse.

Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards
Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards
Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I think there are 3 main factors at play when it comes to the new player: SP (core skills and access to gear), player skill (the thing that Mu is trying to quantify), and a 3rd variable that that encompasses knowledge of maps, understanding of the game mechanics, understanding of your opponents advantages/weaknesses (e.g. weapon ranges, damage profiles), understanding of group tactics, and social connections to allow you to work with people youGÇÖve run with before (place 6 random players in a squad and using a mic, and theyGÇÖll be at a significant disadvantage to 6 players who run together regularly, all other things being equal).

YouGÇÖre 100% right that SP is not a good indication of player skill. Once youGÇÖre over a certain threshold SP really isnGÇÖt a factor at all. Put a player with 20 mill SP against a player with every skill in the game maxed out and SP really wonGÇÖt matter much at all. Initially though, SP does play a pretty significant role. Take 2 experienced players of equal player skill. Have one run in a fresh-out-of-the-academy fit, and the 2nd player run the same fit but with 20 mill in SP. That SP will be a huge factor in who wins.

By far the biggest problem though is that 3rd variableGÇöthe experience/knowledge/social factor variable. Now take 6 random dudes on coms who have never played together before, and have only just graduated from the academy and donGÇÖt know DUST very well yet, put them in proto suits with max SP and have them fight a squad of well-coordinated, vets on new alts. The players that should be proto stomping, will get decimated by the experienced guys in STD. The experienced players will know what ranges to attack from, what map positions are best for the current situation, they will move as a coordinated unit, and easily make up for their SP/Gear disadvantages.

This is the main reason why I think an optional 2nd-tier academy mode is a much better solution. ItGÇÖs addressing that 3rd variable, and also the SP gap at the stage where itGÇÖs the most critical. YouGÇÖll also be able to have balanced matches as the playerGÇÖs MU in the 2nd-tier academy will begin to align over time with their actual skill.

Tiering matches based on meta only affects gearGÇöwhich is the least significant part of why new players get destroyed after graduating the academy. It comes at a very steep cost. For one it really hurts the risk/reward mechanic that makes DUST so amazing. It feels awesome to take out a PRO suit using a STD one, while still possible to do by running cheap fits in the top-tier matches, I think youGÇÖre squadGÇÖs going to have issues with you. Having a mix of STD, ADV, and PRO at the endgame is fun and interesting. ItGÇÖs more of a sandbox. ItGÇÖs only fun though when you have the OPTION to run what you want, and not when you donGÇÖt have the skills to run PROGÇögetting stomped. Again the 2nd-tier academy solves this much more elegantly. Also PRO gear wonGÇÖt feel special if everyone else is running it. It becomes the new baseline at that tier.

I think the meta tiered matches really ruin a lot of what makes DUST special and amazing, without actually solving the problems it needs to. The 2nd-tier optional academy mode DOES address the problems, and doesnGÇÖt screw up the game for everyone else. Much respect o7.

Edit: A couple more cons with the tiered approach. You're splitting the player base into smaller pools which could really increase queuing times, while the 2nd tier academy only splits it once. Also this would be very hard to balance. Some things may have big advantages in low tiers, and suck at the high tiers. For example, low-end vehicles will be very hard to kill using std AV. This could lead to weird "tiered metas" arising with serious balance problems.

Thanks for the feedback. We will be sure to incorporate it, there are more than one way to skin this cat, and maybe a combination of metalevel and sp is the way to go.

If you skill into medi logi, shotgun scout, or hmg heavy sure, but if you don't happen to be toting BAR rifles you aren't going to be PC ready by 15 mil. And if you don't happen to be the FOTM you won't be competitive. That's what makes people with 70mil+ SP impossible to compete with. They will have all of the good gear. Also, I can tell you must be one of those people that always have 4 guys hugging your ass in your squad if you think proto weapons (Slightly more dps for 47k isk) is more cost effective compared to a proto suit (47k for superior CPU/PG and slots) or for damn sure cores.

Edit: NM saw your corp Titans of Phoenix lol. I've never seen you guys do good when you weren't pub stomping the battle academy grads. If I remember correctly you guys spam shotgun scouts, hmg heavies, and tanks. I'm guessing though as that's what most the scrub corps spam.

Cores > suits > modules > proto weapons. Rushing proto weapons before anything else is a good way for newbies to go bankrupt.

I came into dust thinking it was like battlefield but when I played my first game it got better! It brought back my memories of MAG! (R.I.P.) so I continued playing and loved it until.....it took me out of the training mission. Then I was thrown in with players that have 6 months plus put into the game. At first I thought I just wasn't used to the game and the aiming so I kept my chin up and pushed on. Now I am 3 weeks in and I know the maps and my aiming is tighter but ow I'm putting a rail rifle clip into an enemy's back to only have them 3 shot me. Pretty unbalanced if you ask me. Plenty of good mmo fps have a skill system but even a new player can do some damage and have fun. Oh and the constant spawn killing is rather annoying. There should be away to play with players only in my range of sp. in general the game has good concepts and fun gameplay but how very unbalanced it is, it realy breaks the game for new players. I realy really want to love this game but I just can't find a reason too. I'm not into wasting 6 months to get enough sp to be able to have some fun. Veterans I understands why you play this game....new players you should just turn around before your ahead unless you have months to use and don't mind gettin slapped around most of your gynnan

General Discussion peasants don't get to talk to me as an equal. Sit down, shut up, listen to what I say, learn from it, then feel grateful I spent any time on you at all.



And your own ability keeps you from competing - not your gear. The balance this game has now compared to a year ago is vastly improved. FOTM isn't all dominating - only bad players think so.

We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse.

Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards
Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards
Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards

Thanks for the feedback. We will be sure to incorporate it, there are more than one way to skin this cat, and maybe a combination of metalevel and sp is the way to go.

Cores > suits > modules > proto weapons. Rushing proto weapons before anything else is a good way for newbies to go bankrupt.

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I think there are 3 main factors at play when it comes to the new player: SP (core skills and access to gear), player skill (the thing that Mu is trying to quantify), and a 3rd variable that that encompasses knowledge of maps, understanding of the game mechanics, understanding of your opponents advantages/weaknesses (e.g. weapon ranges, damage profiles), understanding of group tactics, and social connections to allow you to work with people youGÇÖve run with before (place 6 random players in a squad and using a mic, and theyGÇÖll be at a significant disadvantage to 6 players who run together regularly, all other things being equal).

YouGÇÖre 100% right that SP is not a good indication of player skill. Once youGÇÖre over a certain threshold SP really isnGÇÖt a factor at all. Put a player with 20 mill SP against a player with every skill in the game maxed out and SP really wonGÇÖt matter much at all. Initially though, SP does play a pretty significant role. Take 2 experienced players of equal player skill. Have one run in a fresh-out-of-the-academy fit, and the 2nd player run the same fit but with 20 mill in SP. That SP will be a huge factor in who wins.

By far the biggest problem though is that 3rd variableGÇöthe experience/knowledge/social factor variable. Now take 6 random dudes on coms who have never played together before, and have only just graduated from the academy and donGÇÖt know DUST very well yet, put them in proto suits with max SP and have them fight a squad of well-coordinated, vets on new alts. The players that should be proto stomping, will get decimated by the experienced guys in STD. The experienced players will know what ranges to attack from, what map positions are best for the current situation, they will move as a coordinated unit, and easily make up for their SP/Gear disadvantages.

This is the main reason why I think an optional 2nd-tier academy mode is a much better solution. ItGÇÖs addressing that 3rd variable, and also the SP gap at the stage where itGÇÖs the most critical. YouGÇÖll also be able to have balanced matches as the playerGÇÖs MU in the 2nd-tier academy will begin to align over time with their actual skill.

Tiering matches based on meta only affects gearGÇöwhich is the least significant part of why new players get destroyed after graduating the academy. It comes at a very steep cost. For one it really hurts the risk/reward mechanic that makes DUST so amazing. It feels awesome to take out a PRO suit using a STD one, while still possible to do by running cheap fits in the top-tier matches, I think youGÇÖre squadGÇÖs going to have issues with you. Having a mix of STD, ADV, and PRO at the endgame is fun and interesting. ItGÇÖs more of a sandbox. ItGÇÖs only fun though when you have the OPTION to run what you want, and not when you donGÇÖt have the skills to run PROGÇögetting stomped. Again the 2nd-tier academy solves this much more elegantly. Also PRO gear wonGÇÖt feel special if everyone else is running it. It becomes the new baseline at that tier.

I think the meta tiered matches really ruin a lot of what makes DUST special and amazing, without actually solving the problems it needs to. The 2nd-tier optional academy mode DOES address the problems, and doesnGÇÖt screw up the game for everyone else. Much respect o7.

Edit: A couple more cons with the tiered approach. You're splitting the player base into smaller pools which could really increase queuing times, while the 2nd tier academy only splits it once. Also this would be very hard to balance. Some things may have big advantages in low tiers, and suck at the high tiers. For example, low-end vehicles will be very hard to kill using std AV. This could lead to weird "tiered metas" arising with serious balance problems.

I just want to confirm one thing:


You're fine with ruining the Risk vs Reward aspect of this game with brackets?....

I like the 2nd tier academy idea.
If gear is least significant part then why do squads proto stomp pub matches? Why would so many want to keep the ability to proto stomp pub matches in the game? Do proto stompers not want to be in matches vs other proto squads? Can they still stomp in STD gear vs STD gear yes. So why do they need to defend the ability to do it in proto gear vs STD gear?

Everyone will probably focus on the metalevel restrictions, but I think the different reward levels will be the most significant part of this. Top players won't play for anything other than the highest rewards; new players will accept the lower rewards in order to play matches without those top players stomping them.