DUST Search - My 3 week gameplay review.

CCP Rattati wrote:

Vell0cet wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse.

Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards
Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards
Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards

I have a lot of respect for you and the work youGÇÖve done, but I think this is a VERY WRONG approach. Having tiered gear is only useful because other people are using different tiers (risk/reward). If everyone is using the same tier of gear in a given match, then it defeats the purpose of having tiers at all. It seriously devalues the RPG aspects of the game. YouGÇÖll still have vets playing in the low bracket GÇ£STD-stompingGÇ¥ with organized squads to max their K/D, ruining the experience of the new players youGÇÖre trying to protect.

YouGÇÖre solving the wrong problem. The real problem is that youGÇÖre including new players and vets in the same matches. Meta-based matches don't solve this. The gear differences are a symptom, not the cause. An infinitely better solution is a 2nd-tier, optional academy mode. This would be available to all players under some SP threshold (around 5 mill SPGÇöbut open to debate). IGÇÖve written about it here. IGÇÖd really love to hear why matches tiered by meta levels of gear is a better solution for new players getting destroyed and giving up.

SP is absolutely not a measure of "fps skill". The vets will be on equal ground in STD gear. Then there is no "proto" stomping. And an equal amount of good players on each side.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 2662	Posted - 2014.12.11 17:31:00 - [1] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: This is why tiers must die. I completely disagree. Its why we need a second-tier optional academy mode for people under 5 mill SP, it's not the gear, it's map knowledge, teamwork, tactics, knowledge of game mechanics, etc. All of it gives the vet a massive advantage over the new player. The problem isn't the differences in gear (which makes the game unique and interesting via risk/reward) its that new players are being pushed into the greater player base before they've had a chance to get the skills, knowledge, experience, social connections, team tactics etc. Where they can actually be competitive. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2663	Posted - 2014.12.12 04:05:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse. Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards I have a lot of respect for you and the work youGÇÖve done, but I think this is a VERY WRONG approach. Having tiered gear is only useful because other people are using different tiers (risk/reward). If everyone is using the same tier of gear in a given match, then it defeats the purpose of having tiers at all. It seriously devalues the RPG aspects of the game. YouGÇÖll still have vets playing in the low bracket GÇ£STD-stompingGÇ¥ with organized squads to max their K/D, ruining the experience of the new players youGÇÖre trying to protect. YouGÇÖre solving the wrong problem. The real problem is that youGÇÖre including new players and vets in the same matches. Meta-based matches don't solve this. An infinitely better solution is a 2nd-tier, optional academy mode. This would be available to all players under some SP threshold (around 5 mill SPGÇöbut open to debate). IGÇÖve written about it here. IGÇÖd really love to hear why matches tiered by meta levels of gear is a better solution for new players getting destroyed and giving up. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2670	Posted - 2014.12.12 16:35:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Vell0cet wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse. Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards I have a lot of respect for you and the work youGÇÖve done, but I think this is a VERY WRONG approach. Having tiered gear is only useful because other people are using different tiers (risk/reward). If everyone is using the same tier of gear in a given match, then it defeats the purpose of having tiers at all. It seriously devalues the RPG aspects of the game. YouGÇÖll still have vets playing in the low bracket GÇ£STD-stompingGÇ¥ with organized squads to max their K/D, ruining the experience of the new players youGÇÖre trying to protect. YouGÇÖre solving the wrong problem. The real problem is that youGÇÖre including new players and vets in the same matches. Meta-based matches don't solve this. The gear differences are a symptom, not the cause. An infinitely better solution is a 2nd-tier, optional academy mode. This would be available to all players under some SP threshold (around 5 mill SPGÇöbut open to debate). IGÇÖve written about it here. IGÇÖd really love to hear why matches tiered by meta levels of gear is a better solution for new players getting destroyed and giving up. SP is absolutely not a measure of "fps skill". The vets will be on equal ground in STD gear. Then there is no "proto" stomping. And an equal amount of good players on each side. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to respond. I think there are 3 main factors at play when it comes to the new player: SP (core skills and access to gear), player skill (the thing that Mu is trying to quantify), and a 3rd variable that that encompasses knowledge of maps, understanding of the game mechanics, understanding of your opponents advantages/weaknesses (e.g. weapon ranges, damage profiles), understanding of group tactics, and social connections to allow you to work with people youGÇÖve run with before (place 6 random players in a squad and using a mic, and theyGÇÖll be at a significant disadvantage to 6 players who run together regularly, all other things being equal). YouGÇÖre 100% right that SP is not a good indication of player skill. Once youGÇÖre over a certain threshold SP really isnGÇÖt a factor at all. put a player with 20 mill SP against a player with every skill in the game maxed out and SP really wonGÇÖt matter much at all. Initially though, SP does play a pretty significant role. Take 2 experienced players of equal player skill. Have one run in a fresh-out-of-the-academy fit, and the 2nd player run the same fit but with 20 mill in SP. That SP will be a huge factor in who wins. By far the biggest problem though is that 3rd variableGÇöthe experience/knowledge/social factor variable. Now take 6 random dudes on coms who have never played together before, and have only just graduated from the academy and donGÇÖt know DUST very well yet, put them in proto suits with max SP and have them fight a squad of well-coordinated, vets on new alts. The players that should be proto stomping, will get decimated by the experienced guys in STD. The experienced players will know what ranges to attack from, what map positions are best for the current situation, they will move as a coordinated unit, and easily make up for their SP/Gear disadvantages. This is the main reason why I think an optional 2nd-tier academy mode is a much better solution. ItGÇÖs addressing that 3rd variable, and also the SP gap at the stage where itGÇÖs the most critical. YouGÇÖll also be able to have balanced matches as the playerGÇÖs MU in the 2nd-tier academy will begin to align over time with their actual skill. Tiering matches based on meta only affects gearGÇöwhich is the least significant part of why new players get destroyed after graduating the academy. It comes at a very steep cost. For one it really hurts the risk/reward mechanic that makes DUST so amazing. It feels awesome to take out a PRO suit using a STD one, while still possible to do by running cheap fits in the top-tier matches, I think youGÇÖre squadGÇÖs going to have issues with you. Having a mix of STD, ADV, and PRO at the endgame is fun and interesting. ItGÇÖs more of a sandbox. ItGÇÖs only fun though when you have the OPTION to run what you want, and not when you donGÇÖt have the skills to run PROGÇögetting stomped. Again the 2nd-tier academy solves this much more elegantly. Also PRO gear wonGÇÖt feel special if everyone else is running it. It becomes the new baseline at that tier. I think the meta tiered matches really ruin a lot of what makes DUST special and amazing, without actually solving the problems it needs to. The 2nd-tier optional academy mode DOES address the problems, and doesnGÇÖt screw up the game for everyone else. Much respect o7. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2674	Posted - 2014.12.13 05:46:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the feedback. We will be sure to incorporate it, there are more than one way to skin this cat, and maybe a combination of metalevel and sp is the way to go. Thanks for reading/considering my post. I know you've got a lot on your plate. I also think this is an example of where posting the roadmap can produce a better outcome by collaborating with the players early before you guys commit too many development resources to something. Thank you for keeping us in the loop. It means a lot to us as players, and I think it's very smart business. I don't know how difficult it would be to implement the 2nd tier optional academy mode, but from the outside looking in, it seems like a much easier idea to code. You, of course, have access to the data and know how that would affect queue times and such, as well as what would be involved in creating a mode that only appeared for people that met the SP requirements (this may already be possible with the existing code). The other issue would be creating a pop-up message for when a squad leader (who meets the requirements) queued for this mode, but one of his squamates didn't, notifying that person they can't join the battle. Overall that sounds like a pretty minimal amount of work, but I realize things can be much more complex to implement than they may appear. If this truly is reasonably easy to add though. I urge you to think about the possibility of trying this suggestion as an experiment first. Run it for a month or two and see how it affects new player retention numbers. I think it's a much smaller risk with much less development resources and balancing issues to manage. If this radically improves retention (as I believe it will), other measures may be unnecessary. If it fails horribly, you can always remove the mode and try other options (and delete my ISK/rename my character "The Idi0t" with dev hacks ). From my perspective, this is a low-risk idea, with the potential for very high rewards. Then again, I don't know what you know. I haven't seen the data you've seen, so take that for what it's worth. Best PvE idea ever!