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[Idea] Flatten Suit Slot Progression - Initial Tiericide

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Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3263	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:08:00 - [1] - Quote I think a good idea is to start scratching the surface of tiericide soon. One direction to start from could be to flatten one dimension of progression in dropsuits to make the power creep in Dust 514 dropsuits less non-linear (exponential) and perhaps go towards a more linear progression. So, how do we do this? The obvious thing to do is to start normalizing the dropsuit progression in the statistic that has the largest non-linear behaviour: High and low slots. The suggestion is to normalize low and high slots for a dropsuit to the proto equivalent dropsuit, and to exemplify I have taken my current favorite suit, the Amarr assault. I will assume that all skills are at level V that corresponds to the modules in the fit. This is a "worst case" analysis. Assault A-1 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 215.25 PG: 43.31 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/840/10050 Assault A/1-Series 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 322.875 PG: 65.625 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/index/840/10051 Assault ak.0 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 484.3125 PG: 97.12 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/index/840/10052 Side by side view: http://i.imgur.com/SQLwsfs.jpg On top of this, APEX pre-fitted dropsuits have shown us that this is indeed a viable method of progression. A proto dropsuit only capable of only fitting lower tier modules is not significantly more powerful than a current STD suit with complex modules (I leave this to you as a reader to prove or disprove) but it certainly seems like my 'Quafe' Assault A-1 suit is worse than the APEX Assault ak.0. The intention of this thread is not to discuss if the fit is good according to your taste, it is made to discuss if this is a good change in the sense of relative power reduction between for example: STD vs ADV, STD vs PRO and ADV vs PRO dropsuits. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3263	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:13:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved for further analysis and discussion. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3934	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:19:00 - [3] - Quote I really could see this a logical way to approach the issue of tiers and some power disparity while still encouraging progression. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1084	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:46:00 - [4] - Quote I agree that slots should be normalised over tiers. It allows for greater variance of fits at lower tiers, which is to be encouraged not dissuaded. +1 Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Ku Shala The Generals 1042	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:58:00 - [5] - Quote the slots should remain how they are but the suit should become more customisable at proto ie lower base stats in exchange for more slots. basic suits should have base stats according to lore, you should be able to fit a proto suit to have nearly the same stats as the basic with the flexability to change it according to your play style ie sacrifice one stat for another tank for speed ect. so your basic suit might only have 3 highs and 1 low but could be fitted to have comparable stats to a proto, where the proto suit could be fitted to specialise so to gain a high slot on the proto fit you would lose the hp of one complex extender or what ever the basic suit gains in stats losing the high slot. this would level the playing ground between proto and basic *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Grimmiers 734	Posted - 2014.12.08 15:52:00 - [6] - Quote I like this idea. The difference between a std ar and a devolle is like 3 damage yet a suit gets more slots and more cpu to work with at proto level. If we get this type of tiercide we can pave the way to specialized dropsuits that are easier to balance.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5685	Posted - 2014.12.08 18:51:00 - [7] - Quote makes sense to me. It's something to consider at the very least. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 274	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:22:00 - [8] - Quote +1
ScI-Iurk Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 23	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:24:00 - [9] - Quote This is good. We should have this.
Immortal John Ripper 26408	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:42:00 - [10] - Quote GJR approves. I am GJR's subconscience.
General John Ripper 26476	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:42:00 - [11] - Quote GJR approves. CCP wants me to stop trolling. I am turning over a new leaf. o/
Constable Jones 3dge of D4rkness 3dge of D4rkness. 37	Posted - 2014.12.08 21:33:00 - [12] - Quote Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Normalising slot progression is something I've been in favour of since starting to play the game.
Monty Mole Clone Ametat Security Amarr Empire 257	Posted - 2014.12.08 23:12:00 - [13] - Quote this is just the same dropsuit three times, different bonuses at std/adv/pro would be better, just as an example racial tank bonus at std, speed at adv and racial weapon at pro would be better imho edit, what you and i think is best is never going to happen anyway It's a Mark VI... And we've got it by the ass!
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3280	Posted - 2014.12.09 06:53:00 - [14] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: my std amarr assault has about 40 hp less than your pro suit fitted with **** mods and has better rep and damage and is allot cheaper Read OP and stay on topic. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1135	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:58:00 - [15] - Quote It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7411	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:21:00 - [16] - Quote +1 This is a necessity for Dust 514 to have a healthy, balanced atmosphere. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14336	Posted - 2014.12.12 03:22:00 - [17] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3349	Posted - 2014.12.12 08:15:00 - [18] - Quote Atiim wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. It will indeed be a buff to BPOs, and APEX suit will still be better, since you cant buy STD BPO modules to plug into a regular BPO suit, and the suit comes pre-fit with such modules. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
tander09 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 196	Posted - 2014.12.12 08:55:00 - [19] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Atiim wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. It will indeed be a buff to BPOs, and APEX suit will still be "better" for ISK efficiency, since you cant buy STD BPO modules to plug into a regular BPO suit, and the suit comes pre-fit with such modules. Yes, the truth haseth been spoken. "The feud shall not be forgotten. But those who forget, never witnessed the true horror." -Nexle Skimfuse
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3352	Posted - 2014.12.12 08:57:00 - [20] - Quote So, this is targeted for Next Expansion 1.0 right, Rattati? Will solve 90% of the player retention problems. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3955	Posted - 2014.12.12 14:09:00 - [21] - Quote Combine this with loadouts geared towards new players I agree that you would greatly improve the NPE experience and new player retention. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3381	Posted - 2014.12.12 19:05:00 - [22] - Quote Does anyone not think this idea fits dust well, I would love to see some counter arguments. Can't really think of any. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3381	Posted - 2014.12.14 16:49:00 - [23] - Quote Anyone? EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Finn Colman Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 98	Posted - 2014.12.14 21:58:00 - [24] - Quote Counter arguments would probably help to fill any holes that might exist in this plan, I can't come with any though. PSA: Tell players to terminate in order to access mCRUs.
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 304	Posted - 2014.12.19 12:35:00 - [25] - Quote Would it really make a difference to have proto, it it is that marginal? I have never played very competitively but can get decent WP and rank high in pubs. It seems to me proto would be just an extreme waste of money then. Why have them at all? The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 555	Posted - 2014.12.19 13:02:00 - [26] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: the slots should remain how they are but the suit should become more customisable at proto ie lower base stats in exchange for more slots. basic suits should have base stats according to lore, you should be able to fit a proto suit to have nearly the same stats as the basic with the flexability to change it according to your play style ie sacrifice one stat for another tank for speed ect. so your basic suit might only have 3 highs and 1 low but could be fitted to have comparable stats to a proto, where the proto suit could be fitted to specialise so to gain a high slot on the proto fit you would lose the hp of one complex extender or what ever the basic suit gains in stats losing the high slot. this would level the playing ground between proto and basic I like this much more. Make high-end equipment something of a specialist loadout. Higher quality should amount to higher customizability and more niche use cases. Prototype should be the stuff that needs experience to be handled correctly.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3409	Posted - 2014.12.19 14:34:00 - [27] - Quote Hansei Kaizen wrote: Would it really make a difference to have proto, it it is that marginal? I have never played very competitively but can get decent WP and rank high in pubs. It seems to me proto would be just an extreme waste of money then. Why have them at all? You cant really max out your fits unless you buy a proto suit. You would in this scenario pay for extra CPU/PG. Perhaps the ISK cost progression could be tweaked also. As well as a big increase in module cost to still have a similar net cost for a proto suit fit with proto mods. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 128	Posted - 2014.12.19 14:45:00 - [28] - Quote I am neither a new player nor (yet) an old player. I still remember what it was like to be fresh to Dust, yet I still hunger for skillpoints and access to new gear in my chosen role. I confess to not fully understanding the term "tiericide", and I strongly suspect it is because some people are using it incorrectly...or at least that there are different definitions for it. So I will avoid the term. Without using that term, I think it is important that battles continue to have a mix of players in different QUALITY gear. Players need to want to advance in their access to higher quality gear, and therefore they need to be able to see that having access to better gear makes a difference on the battlefield. As long as this is not "step 1" to ultimately limiting battles to certain quality levels of gear, I have no problem with the notion of linear-izing the progression from one quality of gear to the next. That linear-ization should not result in a flat line. I wouldn't want to see a geometric 2,4,8 replaced with a flat linear 8,8,8 but rather with sloped (additive) linear 4,6,8. It seems to me you are suggesting an 8,8,8 approach to one aspect of quality....number of high and low slots in a suit. You are not (yet) talking about flattening the quality of modules or equipment or weapons. Just the quality of the suits. And at that, only one aspect of the quality of the suit. Not the PG/CPU or base Armor/Shield, but only the number of high/low slots. The current slot progression for your example is already linear (low+high = 4,6,8 STD to PRO). I am sure your point would be that when you gain access to a new level of suit, it doesnGÇÖt JUST increase slots, but also other measures of quality: PG/CPU and base Shield/Armor (not to mention chic design ). Those factors donGÇÖt appear to have linear progression. It would seem to me that you should linearize those two rather than flatten out slots in an attempt to compensate. You will never have fully linear progression until all three measures of quality are linear. You are a very smart guy (smarter than me), and a very experienced GÇ£oldGÇ¥ player. I know you must have a reason. Educate me. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
ScI-Iurk Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 25	Posted - 2014.12.19 16:50:00 - [29] - Quote I like the idea of tiercide you presented. I just have bit different idea about it. Right now the skill requirements are what prevent us from using different higher tier gear. If you want to use some gear you have to invest heavily to do so. The lower skill levels allow you to try stuff out for a lower investment. If you remove all skill requirements from all gear and nerf all gear a percentage then buff all the proficiency skills so you end up with the original stats you allow for way more versatile fitting options. A new player can make a protosuit fitting using the modules he/she is proficient in and add some before specializing in those. If they like the fittings they can still specialize the same way and get better at it. I think this will give more options to newbies and vets alike but safeguard the feeling and importance of progression.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 710	Posted - 2014.12.22 02:13:00 - [30] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Atiim wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. It will indeed be a buff to BPOs, and APEX suit will still be "better" for ISK efficiency, since you cant buy STD BPO modules to plug into a regular BPO suit, and the suit comes pre-fit with such modules. Not really. Militia and standard modules only vary in PG/cpu usage. Their effectiveness is still the same. Meaning that A BPO with full slot count would be much better than an APEX suit because it would be customizable, even if one did it with the same BPO modules. While the lower tiered BPO suits may have fitting troubles I believe the customization of such suits allowing a person to use some proto or adv gear, instead of fixed STD, opens up a world that can quickly minmax suits for different jobs. and the fitting modules would make that easy. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 6523	Posted - 2014.12.22 06:53:00 - [31] - Quote I don't really like tiericide because it makes progressing less of a necessity and more as a casual option. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1125	Posted - 2014.12.22 07:13:00 - [32] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: So, this is targeted for Next Expansion 1.0 right, Rattati? Will solve 90% of the player retention problems. I seriously doubt this is the case, but it will definitely help a lot. New player problems are mainly in skills and quality of modules, not the amount they can fit. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Kain Spero Goonfeet 4110	Posted - 2014.12.31 06:56:00 - [33] - Quote I still see this as an elegant way to approach tieracide. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1474	Posted - 2014.12.31 07:39:00 - [34] - Quote This is interesting. So i can get a cheap proto suit, awesome Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Lynn Beck Delta Vanguard 6 2341	Posted - 2014.12.31 10:27:00 - [35] - Quote +50000, i was actually thinking the exact same thing a while back, just never liked throwing numbers around. My frame of view as to why this SERIOUSLY will effect me: As a Minja, you can't just pick the Std suit and do good, you might as well not have a suit, Hp notwithstanding. Either i fit 2 damps and have 0 speed increase, or i buy a Proto suit and fit that one kincat i need. One damp is useless, so cant go there without not going at all. Precision fit Calscouts/minjas/whatever, you can't fit these without running a Proto suit, or a Adv in terms of Min. Sure, you could say 'you wanna scan a scout,? Buy a proto' but that's not the premise of the game. I want to be able to super specialize my cheap suit to do one thing, and one thing only. Why should i be debarred from that, even if doing so meant fitting...fitting mods in the lows so i can fit 3 cx precisions and a Basic Combat Rifle? For my MinAssaults as well, some "playstyles" necessitate say, a 3rd low(armor plating, shield regulator, damp) while others just absolutely need that 3rd equip(needle/nano/rep tool) Telling a Logistics that he can only do a certain task at prototype is just unfair. General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
Lynn Beck Delta Vanguard 6 2341	Posted - 2014.12.31 10:29:00 - [36] - Quote Zindorak wrote: This is interesting. So i can get a cheap proto suit, awesome Sure, you can have the slots, but Godd Luck fitting 3 Complex Shield Extenders on a M-1 scout, or a Viziam on a A-1 assault. Doing that, you'd both be wasting low slots on fitting mods and you'd be raising the ISK cost to be near that of a normally fit Adv suit. General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
Lynn Beck Delta Vanguard 6 2341	Posted - 2014.12.31 10:37:00 - [37] - Quote @Doctor Day, Tiericide in most (usually correct) cases is, in one way or another, limiting the EXTREME power upgrades you get from moving up the tiers, for example how the original Amarr Logi only had a Sidearm at Proto, or how the Min Logi only has 4 Eq at Prototype Sure, we can say thats the benefit of having a Proto suit, but not only are you getting that, you're also getting more PG/CPU. In EVE universe, you pay 20x more Isk for one more slot, or for 100 HP more, or for a bonus to something different. In DUST, you should pay that premium for ONLY the extra fitting space, and not the extra slots. At least, thats what most of us proponenets of Tiericide want. The other group, say, want to simply remove Std/Adv tiers, leaving us with Mlt suits, (vastly price reduced) Basic frames, and (probably price increased massively) Specialist frames. This leaves us with practically a copy-paste of EVE's system, where you pay for a normal ship, but have to pay vastly more for a specialist ship(that 1 extra slot, or 100 Hp, or different bonus) I hope this explained it right, and at least correct in where i tried to be correct. General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2368	Posted - 2014.12.31 11:37:00 - [38] - Quote I think tiericide is unlikely to happen in dust. Think about it; their profits from Dust come solely from aurum. Why would they take away one avenue to spend that aurum, by accessing better gear without meeting the skill requirement? Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 6107	Posted - 2014.12.31 12:16:00 - [39] - Quote I think it needs to go further but this is still better than the system we have now by far. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 6108	Posted - 2014.12.31 12:22:00 - [40] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think tiericide is unlikely to happen in dust. Think about it; their profits from Dust come solely from aurum. Why would they take away one avenue to spend that aurum, by accessing better gear without meeting the skill requirement? because this method of tiericide only affects the dropsuits. and because the fitting on each tier of dropsuit remains as the current meta, that means you aren't going to be able to fit a proto loadout on a STD dropsuit with all of the slots. Aurum will allow you to buy suits with better fitting that can handle better modules. Further, tiericide will not be applied to the modules and weapons to insure that fitting skills matter, and your mandatory SP sink shifts to skills that support the suits rather than absolutely MANDATING that you max out the suits themselves. You can get away with ADV fit suits. You don't absolutely NEED to spec to 5. Removing that mandate allows more flexibility for players, and allows people to be more versatile. This won't put a cramp on people who monofocus roles and slowly creep their SP outward while maximizing role benefits. It just makes it not MANDATORY. THe game dictating that you MUST HAVE THIS OPTION when it advertises "You don't have to do it one way" isn't great design space. But providing an incentive to do so means people will still take suit skills to 5 EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 5918	Posted - 2014.12.31 13:14:00 - [41] - Quote I'm in full support of this idea, Spectral. Standard dropsuits lack the slots necessary for diverse and interesting fittings. Advanced is marginally better. It's only when a player can fit a prototype dropsuit do they eventually see the capabilities of the fitting system. What you are suggesting would correct that. My advice to you, playa...
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1656	Posted - 2014.12.31 13:36:00 - [42] - Quote I like the suggestion. Yet, it won't solve the issue of proto suits being just plain simply better, it only lowers the benefits. But a good start. Pro-choice! For hazardous self-activated inertial dampeners! We want to live on the edge (((of MCC)))
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 896	Posted - 2014.12.31 14:45:00 - [43] - Quote This should have happened two years ago.
The-Errorist 965	Posted - 2015.01.20 22:20:00 - [44] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: +1 This is a necessity for Dust 514 to have a healthy, balanced atmosphere. Spectral Clone wrote: ... Will solve 90% of the player retention problems. Definitely not 90, but certainly a sizable percentage. KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I like the suggestion. Yet, it won't solve the issue of proto suits being just plain simply better, it only lowers the benefits. But a good start. I personally don't see a problem with proto suits being plain better, but I do with them being so much better. This plan to flatten suit tier progression is awesome. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill AKA Enkouyami (Main PSN).
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4986	Posted - 2015.04.10 01:31:00 - [45] - Quote This idea is still a good one. With the coming changes to PC though this could potentially pave way for increasing accessibility to planetary conquest and potentially allow for a way to simplify the reward structure in PC. Let's give players earlier access to the fitting side of Dust that makes this game unique while still preserving some suit progression but in a more sensible way. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Haerr Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 2714	Posted - 2015.04.10 11:27:00 - [46] - Quote Yes! Normalise slot layout through out tiers. Do it for the LAVs and Dropships as well. And give LAVs and Dropships inherent armour repair rates just like all the suits and HAVs.
Slave of MORTE 361	Posted - 2015.04.10 11:52:00 - [47] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I really could see this a logical way to approach the issue of tiers and some power disparity while still encouraging progression. I concur and give my support to this idea as well good work I'm her slave because amarrians are the best in the sheets #stamina
Slave of MORTE 361	Posted - 2015.04.10 11:53:00 - [48] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: This idea is still a good one. With the coming changes to PC though this could potentially pave way for increasing accessibility to planetary conquest and potentially allow for a way to simplify the reward structure in PC. Let's give players earlier access to the fitting side of Dust that makes this game unique while still preserving some suit progression but in a more sensible way. Exactly I'm her slave because amarrians are the best in the sheets #stamina
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 930	Posted - 2015.04.10 18:26:00 - [49] - Quote Haerr wrote: Yes! Normalise slot layout through out tiers. Do it for the LAVs and Dropships as well. And give LAVs and Dropships inherent armour repair rates just like all the suits and HAVs. Haerr haerr ! +1 Know what cannot be known.
Sarus Rambo Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 178	Posted - 2015.04.10 18:41:00 - [50] - Quote yes. +1 This sums up 75% of forum posts.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 294	Posted - 2015.04.10 22:45:00 - [51] - Quote Yes yes. I have mixed feelings about it but in all honesty... I don't think it's a bad idea. Hell, i can finally run a good assault c-1... That's the first thing I applaud you for. Plus, i might be able to use up as much fitting space as possible, rather than being forced into slots... Maybe my recon assault can finally recon w/ 2.precision mods over one. Yknow what, take it back. I don't have mixed feelings anymore. The ADS tourney! Join today!
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2985	Posted - 2015.04.11 01:09:00 - [52] - Quote I am all for this, but I think we should get a hard look at how much more fitting the lower tiered suits would get. IF for instance you can run a full proto setup on an advanced suit, then having the proto suit would be a waste of money. Conversely, if the fitting is too low, then we still have a problem not because the slots aren't there, but because the slots can't be filled because of lack of fitting space. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4989	Posted - 2015.04.11 02:37:00 - [53] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I am all for this, but I think we should get a hard look at how much more fitting the lower tiered suits would get. IF for instance you can run a full proto setup on an advanced suit, then having the proto suit would be a waste of money. Conversely, if the fitting is too low, then we still have a problem not because the slots aren't there, but because the slots can't be filled because of lack of fitting space. In terms of "fitting" PG and CPU would be left the same. The only thing that would change would be slots. The OP has a few good examples: Spectral Clone wrote: I will assume that all skills are at level V that corresponds to the modules in the fit. This is a "worst case" analysis. Assault A-1 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 215.25 PG: 43.31 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/840/10050 Assault A/1-Series 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 322.875 PG: 65.625 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/index/840/10051 Assault ak.0 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 484.3125 PG: 97.12 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/index/840/10052 Side by side view: http://i.imgur.com/SQLwsfs.jpg Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2987	Posted - 2015.04.11 06:13:00 - [54] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: In terms of "fitting" PG and CPU would be left the same. The only thing that would change would be slots. But that fit will only work if you have max skills. Look at this fit with all militia fittings at no skills at all, basically what a new player would be working with. Note how many resources are needed to fit all that. and it's militia. Even at max skills, you still run over the resource amount we have now. We would have a situation where players couldn't even deploy in their suits because they don't have the fitting room for them. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5766	Posted - 2015.04.11 07:28:00 - [55] - Quote Should totally happen. An increase in slots as well as fitting capacity and better modules, paired with pools of SP, are just too many advantages veterans have over new players. Flattening slot progression will give new players an edge but not so much as to devalue the time and effort vets have put into the game. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4989	Posted - 2015.04.11 15:51:00 - [56] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Kain Spero wrote: In terms of "fitting" PG and CPU would be left the same. The only thing that would change would be slots. But that fit will only work if you have max skills. Look at this fit with all militia fittings at no skills at all, basically what a new player would be working with. Again, the goal isn't to eliminate the need or desire for progression. A new player with no actually has similar trouble fitting a basic suit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/12892 The difference here is that they have even less slots to work with. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2988	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:00:00 - [57] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again, the goal isn't to eliminate the need or desire for progression. A new player with no actually has similar trouble fitting a basic suit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/12892 The difference here is that they have even less slots to work with. But with max skills, you can run you're fit. Under the current proposal, even at max fittings I still will be unable to fit a suit with militia mods. Here is the same fit I posted, but with max skills. Note how even now, CPU is still over and PG is WAY over the proposed amount. Even with max skills, it is still impossible to fit a standard assault suit with all militia mods. This shouldn't be; a standard suit should at the least be able to fit all militia and still be deployable. I think a simple solution would be to have his proposed skill V fitting numbers as the base, and have fitting increase it from there. So it would look like this at skill V: A-1: 279.5 CPU, 55.9 PG A/1-Series: 419.738 CPU, 85.313 PG ak.0: 629.606 CPU, 126.26 PG This way, you can fit all militia at standard, all advanced at advanced, and all proto at proto. Proto gains a little power since it can fit all proto, but its gains are minimal compared to the gains of standard and advanced. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4989	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:22:00 - [58] - Quote If you have max skills you probably shouldn't be running militia. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/840/10050 Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2988	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:25:00 - [59] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: If you have max skills you probably shouldn't be running militia. If I have max skills and still can't run militia, I can't see how a newberry is supposed to cope. Plus, personally I like to run cheap suits So I don't ever have to worry about money. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4989	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:29:00 - [60] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Kain Spero wrote: If you have max skills you probably shouldn't be running militia. If I have max skills and still can't run militia, I can't see how a newberry is supposed to cope. Plus, personally I like to run cheap suits So I don't ever have to worry about money. You do realize that militia have standard stats with worse fitting right? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3482	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:31:00 - [61] - Quote Sotp necr0ing my thr3adzzzzzzz!!!1 :) EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2988	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:38:00 - [62] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: [quote=Alena Ventrallis] You do realize that militia have standard stats with worse fitting right? Yes. You realize that if a max skilled character can't run all militia, that means a new player will definitely not be able to run all militia, which they most likely will have to until they get some SP? You realize that also means that starter suits will be unable to be deployed because they are over their fitting limit? Or that new players will have to immediately skill into fitting skills when they likely will have no idea what those even are? I'm definitely a cheap SOB, I like seeing GêP next to a lot of my fittings. But if I have 70,000,000 SP and can't run all militia, what makes you think someone with 500,000 is going to fare any better than me? The current iteration does nothing but harm new players. At least now they can deploy into battle. If we leave fitting space the same while increasing slot count, new players would have to leave slots empty, which would bring us right back to where we are now. The current fitting space we have was designed around the lower slot count; if we increase slots, we must therefore also increase fitting to accommodate those slots. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4989	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:38:00 - [63] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Sotp necr0ing my thr3adzzzzzzz!!!1 :) "RISE FROM YOUR GWRAVE!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hihEhsdwiIk I guess what I'm getting at Alena. Is that it would be better to flatten the slots first and then go from there. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2988	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:43:00 - [64] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Sotp necr0ing my thr3adzzzzzzz!!!1 :) "RISE FROM YOUR GWRAVE!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hihEhsdwiIk I guess what I'm getting at Alena. Is that it would be better to flatten the slots first and then go from there. I get your point, but the fitting space we have were designed around the lower slot count. There's some formula CCP has where each slot is worth X CPU and Y PG or something similar. If we increase slots, we should also apply that formula to increase fitting space so we can use those slots. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3162	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:43:00 - [65] - Quote Nothing will ever beat the Type-As from closed beta. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2988	Posted - 2015.04.11 16:45:00 - [66] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Sotp necr0ing my thr3adzzzzzzz!!!1 :) STOP HAVING GOOD IDEAS THEN!!! Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Indianna Pwns Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 90	Posted - 2015.04.12 02:10:00 - [67] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Atiim wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. It will indeed be a buff to BPOs, and APEX suit will still be "better" for ISK efficiency, since you cant buy STD BPO modules to plug into a regular BPO suit, and the suit comes pre-fit with such modules. Not really. Militia and standard modules only vary in PG/cpu usage. Their effectiveness is still the same. This is actually untrue, there are militia modules that are straight up worse than basic modules. Shield regulators come to mind.
Indianna Pwns Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 91	Posted - 2015.04.12 02:34:00 - [68] - Quote With regards to the issue of being unable to fit militia gear due to CPU/PG constraints. Why don't we give them the same CPU/PG requirements as standard gear but make them straight up to downgrades to standard modules. For example militia weapons already have smaller clip sizes, why do they need to be more PG/CPU intensive?
Indianna Pwns Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 91	Posted - 2015.04.12 02:50:00 - [69] - Quote when it comes to the issue of militia dropsuits, I believe currently they have 1 less fitting slot either in their highs or lows than the standard variant. With the new progression flattening proposal in mind I propose giving them the slot layout of advanced tier dropsuits instead of proto. This should help players without skill points invested fit modules easier as the suits have slightly less fitting space.
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2995	Posted - 2015.04.12 17:11:00 - [70] - Quote Indianna Pwns wrote: This is actually untrue, there are militia modules that are straight up worse than basic modules. Shield regulators come to mind. As far as I know, these discrepancies are errors. Militia is supposed to be equivalent to standard, only with higher fitting costs. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3485	Posted - 2015.04.13 10:02:00 - [71] - Quote Kain added this to the Trello months ago, not sure if Rattati has checked it out. Can unfortunately not play console games any more due to owning a 144 Hz PC screen with g-sync and a PC that rekks all games. Need to save my eyes from getting rekt. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Text Grant PIanet Express Smart Deploy 411	Posted - 2015.04.13 13:23:00 - [72] - Quote +1 After this I'll need a blueprint minmando
Jebus McKing 1807	Posted - 2015.04.13 15:55:00 - [73] - Quote +1 for necromancy \| GÇÇGÇÇGÇÇ.GÇÇGÇÇGÇÇ \|
Nevyn Tazinas Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 67	Posted - 2015.04.13 20:10:00 - [74] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I get your point, but the fitting space we have were designed around the lower slot count. There's some formula CCP has where each slot is worth X CPU and Y PG or something similar. If we increase slots, we should also apply that formula to increase fitting space so we can use those slots. There are these things called CPU & PG mods, they would see some use this way. Yes this is a Necro'ed thread, but it's still highly valid.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4371	Posted - 2015.04.19 18:28:00 - [75] - Quote Haerr wrote: Yes! Normalise slot layout through out tiers. Do it for the LAVs and Dropships as well. And give LAVs and Dropships inherent armour repair rates just like all the suits and HAVs. Mostly yes, except vehicle reps need to be moved from passive to active in light of the stacked Maddy of eternal hardened reps CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Megaman Trigger Ready to Play 285	Posted - 2015.04.19 18:40:00 - [76] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Indianna Pwns wrote: This is actually untrue, there are militia modules that are straight up worse than basic modules. Shield regulators come to mind. As far as I know, these discrepancies are errors. Militia is supposed to be equivalent to standard, only with higher fitting costs. In terms of weapons, Militia generally have smaller clips and reserve ammo sizes compared to standard gear. Purifier. First Class.
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 3021	Posted - 2015.04.19 18:41:00 - [77] - Quote Nevyn Tazinas wrote: There are these things called CPU & PG mods, they would see some use this way. And if new players have to fit these mods in order to have the fitting necessary, we are back to square one, since the extra slots will be taken up by the fitting mods. May as well not do it at all if we don't do it right. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 3027	Posted - 2015.04.21 21:19:00 - [78] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Haerr wrote: Yes! Normalise slot layout through out tiers. Do it for the LAVs and Dropships as well. And give LAVs and Dropships inherent armour repair rates just like all the suits and HAVs. Mostly yes, except vehicle reps need to be moved from passive to active in light of the stacked Maddy of eternal hardened reps The passive base regen is fine. What we need to do is make the armor rep modules active. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3495	Posted - 2015.05.05 11:04:00 - [79] - Quote \|3++/\/\p EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 1195	Posted - 2015.05.05 18:13:00 - [80] - Quote People still talk about this? It ain't gonna happen Who cares what some sniper has to say. **--CCP, let's push for the license of Dust/Legion on both current Gen consoles-
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3496	Posted - 2015.05.08 07:45:00 - [81] - Quote Seems like this is happening now? You can actually re-fit APEX dropsuits? https://twitter.com/KainSpero/status/596292007074471937 My work is done here. Now, give me a PC port. Got too much compute power in my PC to even consider bringing out my PS3 from my basement. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok

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