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[Idea] Flatten Suit Slot Progression - Initial Tiericide

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Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3263	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:08:00 - [1] - Quote I think a good idea is to start scratching the surface of tiericide soon. One direction to start from could be to flatten one dimension of progression in dropsuits to make the power creep in Dust 514 dropsuits less non-linear (exponential) and perhaps go towards a more linear progression. So, how do we do this? The obvious thing to do is to start normalizing the dropsuit progression in the statistic that has the largest non-linear behaviour: High and low slots. The suggestion is to normalize low and high slots for a dropsuit to the proto equivalent dropsuit, and to exemplify I have taken my current favorite suit, the Amarr assault. I will assume that all skills are at level V that corresponds to the modules in the fit. This is a "worst case" analysis. Assault A-1 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 215.25 PG: 43.31 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/840/10050 Assault A/1-Series 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 322.875 PG: 65.625 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/index/840/10051 Assault ak.0 3 high slots 5 low slots CPU: 484.3125 PG: 97.12 Example fit: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/index/840/10052 Side by side view: http://i.imgur.com/SQLwsfs.jpg On top of this, APEX pre-fitted dropsuits have shown us that this is indeed a viable method of progression. A proto dropsuit only capable of only fitting lower tier modules is not significantly more powerful than a current STD suit with complex modules (I leave this to you as a reader to prove or disprove) but it certainly seems like my 'Quafe' Assault A-1 suit is worse than the APEX Assault ak.0. The intention of this thread is not to discuss if the fit is good according to your taste, it is made to discuss if this is a good change in the sense of relative power reduction between for example: STD vs ADV, STD vs PRO and ADV vs PRO dropsuits. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3263	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:13:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved for further analysis and discussion. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3934	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:19:00 - [3] - Quote I really could see this a logical way to approach the issue of tiers and some power disparity while still encouraging progression. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1084	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:46:00 - [4] - Quote I agree that slots should be normalised over tiers. It allows for greater variance of fits at lower tiers, which is to be encouraged not dissuaded. +1 Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Ku Shala The Generals 1042	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:58:00 - [5] - Quote the slots should remain how they are but the suit should become more customisable at proto ie lower base stats in exchange for more slots. basic suits should have base stats according to lore, you should be able to fit a proto suit to have nearly the same stats as the basic with the flexability to change it according to your play style ie sacrifice one stat for another tank for speed ect. so your basic suit might only have 3 highs and 1 low but could be fitted to have comparable stats to a proto, where the proto suit could be fitted to specialise so to gain a high slot on the proto fit you would lose the hp of one complex extender or what ever the basic suit gains in stats losing the high slot. this would level the playing ground between proto and basic *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Grimmiers 734	Posted - 2014.12.08 15:52:00 - [6] - Quote I like this idea. The difference between a std ar and a devolle is like 3 damage yet a suit gets more slots and more cpu to work with at proto level. If we get this type of tiercide we can pave the way to specialized dropsuits that are easier to balance.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5685	Posted - 2014.12.08 18:51:00 - [7] - Quote makes sense to me. It's something to consider at the very least. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 274	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:22:00 - [8] - Quote +1
ScI-Iurk Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 23	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:24:00 - [9] - Quote This is good. We should have this.
Immortal John Ripper 26408	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:42:00 - [10] - Quote GJR approves. I am GJR's subconscience.

General John Ripper 26476	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:42:00 - [11] - Quote GJR approves. CCP wants me to stop trolling. I am turning over a new leaf. o/
Constable Jones 3dge of D4rkness 3dge of D4rkness. 37	Posted - 2014.12.08 21:33:00 - [12] - Quote Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Normalising slot progression is something I've been in favour of since starting to play the game.
Monty Mole Clone Ametat Security Amarr Empire 257	Posted - 2014.12.08 23:12:00 - [13] - Quote this is just the same dropsuit three times, different bonuses at std/adv/pro would be better, just as an example racial tank bonus at std, speed at adv and racial weapon at pro would be better imho edit, what you and i think is best is never going to happen anyway It's a Mark VI... And we've got it by the ass!
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3280	Posted - 2014.12.09 06:53:00 - [14] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: my std amarr assault has about 40 hp less than your pro suit fitted with **** mods and has better rep and damage and is allot cheaper Read OP and stay on topic. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1135	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:58:00 - [15] - Quote It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7411	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:21:00 - [16] - Quote +1 This is a necessity for Dust 514 to have a healthy, balanced atmosphere. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14336	Posted - 2014.12.12 03:22:00 - [17] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3349	Posted - 2014.12.12 08:15:00 - [18] - Quote Atiim wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. It will indeed be a buff to BPOs, and APEX suit will still be better, since you cant buy STD BPO modules to plug into a regular BPO suit, and the suit comes pre-fit with such modules. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
tander09 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 196	Posted - 2014.12.12 08:55:00 - [19] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Atiim wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. It will indeed be a buff to BPOs, and APEX suit will still be "better" for ISK efficiency, since you cant buy STD BPO modules to plug into a regular BPO suit, and the suit comes pre-fit with such modules. Yes, the truth haseth been spoken. "The feud shall not be forgotten. But those who forget, never witnessed the true horror." -Nexle Skimfuse
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3352	Posted - 2014.12.12 08:57:00 - [20] - Quote So, this is targeted for Next Expansion 1.0 right, Rattati? Will solve 90% of the player retention problems. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok

Kain Spero Goonfeet 3955	Posted - 2014.12.12 14:09:00 - [21] - Quote Combine this with loadouts geared towards new players I agree that you would greatly improve the NPE experience and new player retention. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3381	Posted - 2014.12.12 19:05:00 - [22] - Quote Does anyone not think this idea fits dust well, I would love to see some counter arguments. Can't really think of any. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3381	Posted - 2014.12.14 16:49:00 - [23] - Quote Anyone? EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Finn Colman Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 98	Posted - 2014.12.14 21:58:00 - [24] - Quote Counter arguments would probably help to fill any holes that might exist in this plan, I can't come with any though. PSA: Tell players to terminate in order to access mCRUs.
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 304	Posted - 2014.12.19 12:35:00 - [25] - Quote Would it really make a difference to have proto, it it is that marginal? I have never played very competitively but can get decent WP and rank high in pubs. It seems to me proto would be just an extreme waste of money then. Why have them at all? The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 555	Posted - 2014.12.19 13:02:00 - [26] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: the slots should remain how they are but the suit should become more customisable at proto ie lower base stats in exchange for more slots. basic suits should have base stats according to lore, you should be able to fit a proto suit to have nearly the same stats as the basic with the flexability to change it according to your play style ie sacrifice one stat for another tank for speed ect. so your basic suit might only have 3 highs and 1 low but could be fitted to have comparable stats to a proto, where the proto suit could be fitted to specialise so to gain a high slot on the proto fit you would lose the hp of one complex extender or what ever the basic suit gains in stats losing the high slot. this would level the playing ground between proto and basic I like this much more. Make high-end equipment something of a specialist loadout. Higher quality should amount to higher customizability and more niche use cases. Prototype should be the stuff that needs experience to be handled correctly.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3409	Posted - 2014.12.19 14:34:00 - [27] - Quote Hansei Kaizen wrote: Would it really make a difference to have proto, it it is that marginal? I have never played very competitively but can get decent WP and rank high in pubs. It seems to me proto would be just an extreme waste of money then. Why have them at all? You cant really max out your fits unless you buy a proto suit. You would in this scenario pay for extra CPU/PG. Perhaps the ISK cost progression could be tweaked also. As well as a big increase in module cost to still have a similar net cost for a proto suit fit with proto mods. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 128	Posted - 2014.12.19 14:45:00 - [28] - Quote I am neither a new player nor (yet) an old player. I still remember what it was like to be fresh to Dust, yet I still hunger for skillpoints and access to new gear in my chosen role. I confess to not fully understanding the term "tiericide", and I strongly suspect it is because some people are using it incorrectly...or at least that there are different definitions for it. So I will avoid the term. Without using that term, I think it is important that battles continue to have a mix of players in different QUALITY gear. Players need to want to advance in their access to higher quality gear, and therefore they need to be able to see that having access to better gear makes a difference on the battlefield. As long as this is not "step 1" to ultimately limiting battles to certain quality levels of gear, I have no problem with the notion of linear-izing the progression from one quality of gear to the next. That linear-ization should not result in a flat line. I wouldn't want to see a geometric 2,4,8 replaced with a flat linear 8,8,8 but rather with sloped (additive) linear 4,6,8. It seems to me you are suggesting an 8,8,8 approach to one aspect of quality....number of high and low slots in a suit. You are not (yet) talking about flattening the quality of modules or equipment or weapons. Just the quality of the suits. And at that, only one aspect of the quality of the suit. Not the PG/CPU or base Armor/Shield, but only the number of high/low slots. The current slot progression for your example is already linear (low+high = 4,6,8 STD to PRO). I am sure your point would be that when you gain access to a new level of suit, it doesnGÇÖt JUST increase slots, but also other measures of quality: PG/CPU and base Shield/Armor (not to mention chic design ). Those factors donGÇÖt appear to have linear progression. It would seem to me that you should linearize those two rather than flatten out slots in an attempt to compensate. You will never have fully linear progression until all three measures of quality are linear. You are a very smart guy (smarter than me), and a very experienced GÇ£oldGÇ¥ player. I know you must have a reason. Educate me. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
ScI-Iurk Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 25	Posted - 2014.12.19 16:50:00 - [29] - Quote I like the idea of tiercide you presented. I just have bit different idea about it. Right now the skill requirements are what prevent us from using different higher tier gear. If you want to use some gear you have to invest heavily to do so. The lower skill levels allow you to try stuff out for a lower investment. If you remove all skill requirements from all gear and nerf all gear a percentage then buff all the proficiency skills so you end up with the original stats you allow for way more versatile fitting options. A new player can make a protosuit fitting using the modules he/she is proficient in and add some before specializing in those. If they like the fittings they can still specialize the same way and get better at it. I think this will give more options to newbies and vets alike but safeguard the feeling and importance of progression.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 710	Posted - 2014.12.22 02:13:00 - [30] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Atiim wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: It's a good starting idea for tiericide, the problem is that it is no longer a thing. The tiericide goal was scrapped a few months ago. Tiericide would reduce the usefulness and need of things like, for example, APEX suits, BPOs, LP items, Boosters, etc.... If Tiericide was still a goal, you would see less and less of those things being introduced to the market. Instead, you can see how the opposite is happening. For better or worse, tiericide is no longer in CCP plans. Quite the opposite. This method of tiericide would increase the amount of slots in the STD BPOs, which would make them much more valuble than they are at the moment. I would be much more likely to spend 20k AUR on a suit with a 4/4 layout than a 2/2 layout. It will indeed be a buff to BPOs, and APEX suit will still be "better" for ISK efficiency, since you cant buy STD BPO modules to plug into a regular BPO suit, and the suit comes pre-fit with such modules. Not really. Militia and standard modules only vary in PG/cpu usage. Their effectiveness is still the same. Meaning that A BPO with full slot count would be much better than an APEX suit because it would be customizable, even if one did it with the same BPO modules. While the lower tiered BPO suits may have fitting troubles I believe the customization of such suits allowing a person to use some proto or adv gear, instead of fixed STD, opens up a world that can quickly minmax suits for different jobs. and the fitting modules would make that easy. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower Trust CROSS



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I am turning over a new leaf. o/