DUST Search - Shared active scanners are killing the game..

Aeon Amadi wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation.

ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more

Hear the other side of the argument, please.

Gallente Logi's bonus applies to Active Scanners.
-> Active Scanners were the only equipment that only gave WP rewards from squad usage.
--> Passive Scans were arguably better and -all- scouts were made to be able to avoid Gal Logi scans.
----> Thereby, Gal Logi had no role.

Team scanners allow the Gallente Logi to have a role, it was just done in the wrong way. The way it -SHOULD- be done is that Team Scanners should have been a separate variant with a worse precision than their Squad-based counterparts. That way there is incentive for the Gallente Logi to perform scans for his team (or his squad) on a case-by-case basis and have his bonus apply more broadly to reap the rewards like the other Logis do for their team(s).

EDIT:

Could do this by making three tiers of Team Scanners (Standard/Advanced/Prototype) with the following stats:

Normal Precision: 60 / 55 / 50
Gal Logi 5 Precision: 51 / 46.75 / 42.5

This way, even using a team scanner your typical player would only ever be able to scan down Sentinels/Commandos (Assaults/Logis with a proto scanner); but a Gal Logi could scan down Assaults and Logis who have Prof Dampening 5 at the Proto level.

Then your Gallente Logis have a new role as 'Team Support' with the Team based Active Scanners and the Squad-based active scanners are still powerful enough to hold their own weight and can be balanced accordingly.

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Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 161	Posted - 2014.11.05 01:05:00 - [1] - Quote And they are doing it for everybody! Not only scouts as I'm not one of them, but MAINLY aussault suits!!! How can we play smart, attack on flank, use any kind of "surprise" strategy, when there is constantly written at the top of your screen "You've been scanned' This absolutely ruining the assault gameplay, now everybody sees everybody, strategy is completely gone, all you can do is kill people with RR/LR from a good range. Even if they see you, they can't kill you ... Remove this shared scan thing CCP please, it is a really bad idea that needs to be undone. Assaulting people since way too long..
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1468	Posted - 2014.11.05 01:08:00 - [2] - Quote Really? I thought passive scans did it far more efficiently. You know, those 24/7 permascans, which give opponents no warning, have on even while gunning down bogeys. Talk about wallhack. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5456	Posted - 2014.11.05 01:18:00 - [3] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Really? I thought passive scans did it far more efficiently. You know, those 24/7 permascans, which give opponents no warning, have on even while gunning down bogeys. Talk about wallhack. Passive shared scans (which shouldn't be a thing) were shared only with squad. Now, Active Scanners are spamming the entire team with scans. If you had just played like you do now, assuming that everyone can see you, and that there are scouts not showing on tacnet, then you would have been just fine. Don't you see the only thing that has change is that you now have a permanent "You have been scanned" message? Scouts can still see you. They can still hide from you. 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 161	Posted - 2014.11.05 01:29:00 - [4] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Really? I thought passive scans did it far more efficiently. You know, those 24/7 permascans, which give opponents no warning, have on even while gunning down bogeys. Talk about wallhack. Passive shared scans (which shouldn't be a thing) were shared only with squad. Now, Active Scanners are spamming the entire team with scans. If you had just played like you do now, assuming that everyone can see you, and that there are scouts not showing on tacnet, then you would have been just fine. Don't you see the only thing that has change is that you now have a permanent "You have been scanned" message? Scouts can still see you. They can still hide from you. Scouts still have a perma wallhack OP passive scan, but as you said they only share intels to their squads, so as the scanner used to do. This way the scanner was useless compare to the passives. With the actual shared scanner you shine on THE WHOLE ENEMY TEAM's screen like saying "Hey look at me! I'm here!" Not only scouts, but everybody. This has to stop. CCP, you must stop giving easy mode tools to noobs so they can have easy wins. Strategy is the most important part of a FPS and you're spitting on it because scrubs don't know a sh*t about it. Assaulting people since way too long..

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 10287	Posted - 2014.11.05 01:46:00 - [5] - Quote I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14197	Posted - 2014.11.05 01:48:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more That could work and would be a sort of one off tactical use scanner that you pulse every couple of seconds for an instant heads up. Plus I just want to yell at my squad. "Eyes up you scum!" as I snap shot the battlefield. GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6927	Posted - 2014.11.05 01:55:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more Hear the other side of the argument, please. Gallente Logi's bonus applies to Active Scanners. -> Active Scanners were the only equipment that only gave WP rewards from squad usage. --> Passive Scans were arguably better and -all- scouts were made to be able to avoid Gal Logi scans. ----> Thereby, Gal Logi had no role. Team scanners allow the Gallente Logi to have a role, it was just done in the wrong way. The way it -SHOULD- be done is that Team Scanners should have been a separate variant with a worse precision than their Squad-based counterparts. That way there is incentive for the Gallente Logi to perform scans for his team (or his squad) on a case-by-case basis and have his bonus apply more broadly to reap the rewards like the other Logis do for their team(s). Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3290	Posted - 2014.11.05 01:59:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more What about the scanner activates itself like a cloak for x seconds and pulses every couple of seconds leaving a shadow of the old position of that player. Shortening the blip would just kill the scanner, the scan time and cool downs are bad enough already. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 79	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:02:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more i'd accept that, i was trying the scanner today, and i did note that it doesn't give me any scan assist wp, oh, and i also noticed the toxic mood seems to apply even in the warbarge -_-
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2466	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:04:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. One way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more I like that, but perhaps make it only last 2-3sec, enough to turn and get a grasp of the situation before it going dark. Sort of on topic, but I'd rather have all scanners (active and passive, if possible) "blip" rather than being constantly over everyone's head. Meaning, during the whatever time an active scanner is functioning (or someone's within passive range), it would "stamp" the enemies location at that point, but not follow over head. Passives would also only be on the "minimap" while actives would be on the hud. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~

Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 232	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:06:00 - [11] - Quote Scouts are killing the game! Heavies are killing the game! AV are killing the game! What isn't killing the game? Theres always money in the banana stand.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6929	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:10:00 - [12] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. One way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more I like that, but perhaps make it only last 2-3sec, enough to turn and get a grasp of the situation before it going dark. Sort of on topic, but I'd rather have all scanners (active and passive, if possible) "blip" rather than being constantly over everyone's head. Meaning, during the whatever time an active scanner is functioning (or someone's within passive range), it would "stamp" the enemies location at that point, but not follow over head. Passives would also only be on the "minimap" while actives would be on the hud. That'd probably break the Gallente Logi's 'Intel Assist' WP rewards and I honestly would -NEVER- use Active Scanners again if they only flashed the person's chevron. The only way I'd accept something like that is if their chevron froze in place whenever the scan was made and even then it'd probably ruin the active scanners' gameplay. If you don't like being scanned, go Scout, or fit some Prof Dampeners. Just saying; it's not like there's not ways to go around it and -ALL- scouts can get under a Gal Logi Focused Scanner. Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 292	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:18:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more Sorry but you made uour bed Rattati. You nerfed the needle, we picked the scanner . If you nerf the scanner , we will run hives and remotes. This cycle will continue till all equipment is useless. The scans are currently fine, it just other equipment was made less desirable, thus creating a mass influx of the scanners equiped. Look back to the forum "Needle Changes Will Hurt the Game" and look at my posts. I gave reasons why the scanner would be so widely used and the needle wouldn't prior to 1.9 Sage /thread
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2467	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:27:00 - [14] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. One way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more I like that, but perhaps make it only last 2-3sec, enough to turn and get a grasp of the situation before it going dark. Sort of on topic, but I'd rather have all scanners (active and passive, if possible) "blip" rather than being constantly over everyone's head. Meaning, during the whatever time an active scanner is functioning (or someone's within passive range), it would "stamp" the enemies location at that point, but not follow over head. Passives would also only be on the "minimap" while actives would be on the hud. That'd probably break the Gallente Logi's 'Intel Assist' WP rewards and I honestly would -NEVER- use Active Scanners again if they only flashed the person's chevron. The only way I'd accept something like that is if their chevron froze in place whenever the scan was made and even then it'd probably ruin the active scanners' gameplay. If you don't like being scanned, go Scout, or fit some Prof Dampeners. Just saying; it's not like there's not ways to go around it and -ALL- scouts can get under a Gal Logi Focused Scanner. True. I'd rather this be for passive scans honestly, just spitballing some ideas. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 259	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:36:00 - [15] - Quote Sequal Rise wrote: And they are doing it for everybody! Not only scouts as I'm not one of them, but MAINLY aussault suits!!! How can we play smart, attack on flank, use any kind of "surprise" strategy, when there is constantly written at the top of your screen "You've been scanned' This absolutely ruining the assault gameplay, now everybody sees everybody, strategy is completely gone, all you can do is kill people with RR/LR from a good range. Even if they see you, they can't kill you ... Remove this shared scan thing CCP please, it is a really bad idea that needs to be undone. You get level 5 whatever it is and dot get scanned. 44/4 in a BPO Scout (1.8) 40/5 in a Proto Assault (1.7) `- Open Beta Vet - 31mil sp -` R.I.P Dust 514
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1469	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:39:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. PROPOSAL FOR TRULY BETTER SCANNING AND EWAR SYSTEM, The ISM: My suggestion (the first old variation here with no dev attention) is: Steps of change: Give up the on/off detection (meaning you are no longer simply scanned or not) Make it so that when scanner is pointed at hidden red direction, it accumulates scan strength on it. Different suits have different scan thresholds. When reached, THEN target lights up. Implications: - The more damped the suit, the longer it takes for it to be detected. This means scouts gain advantage over other suits, even when the scanner is the most powerful one. - Adds scanner user skill to estimate where hidden reds might be as he has to anticipate where to keep the 'aim'. - Adding sole dampeners have now some use over lesser native damped suits, the module isn't completely useless (as it is if the scanner is simply too powerful). - This model opens up new scanner variation possibilities (see the old thread's follow up posts) Further tuning: 4. Let the scan strength accumulate even after detection 5. Once the scan is off, let is fall again. If highlighted target is again out of threshold, he disappears. Implications: - This means scouts disappear first. Furthermore, it means they would be visible only very short time, at least the best damped ones. They would suffer from wallhacks the minimum amount. With luck opponents with poor awareness might even miss that momentary red blip on tacnet. I call this system the Incremental Scanning Model or lovingly the ISM. ISM could even be applied to passive scans(!) All this while still keeping active scanners viable! People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Juno Tristan Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 143	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:42:00 - [17] - Quote Remove the direction indicator, sure you can see everyone but you don't know exactly what they're doing
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5224	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:51:00 - [18] - Quote Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Scouts are killing the game! Heavies are killing the game! AV are killing the game! What isn't killing the game? Assault Swarm Launcher MOAR Ladders
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14205	Posted - 2014.11.05 02:57:00 - [19] - Quote Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Scouts are killing the game! Heavies are killing the game! AV are killing the game! What isn't killing the game? My own pessimism at never having the opportunity to drive and Amarr HAV is killing this game! GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
Chief-Shotty WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 367	Posted - 2014.11.05 03:11:00 - [20] - Quote Team scan duration should be much shorter-5 seconds at most to give snaphot information. Team scan could cover a large area- sort of a flux range with a wider area. While squad scans hold for a bit longer with more frequent scans. I think team scans down time should be about 50-60 seconds between uses. Really, giving out intel to the whole team is a powerful tool. All it takes is a quick snapshot of an area to help give your teammates an idea of where the action may be or what to expect.....but not constant data that should be communicated between squads. I think my biggest peeve is vehicle scans.....they should be SQUAD ONLY because of their insane coverage yet constant data scan.......the thought of a vehicle to use as a mobile radar station is interesting but its game-breaking and abuse potential. 8-Time New Eden Mass Driver Champion Min Commando Combat Rifle and Mass Driver = FUN and Tears OMG the Tears!! :)

Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 232	Posted - 2014.11.05 03:27:00 - [21] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Scouts are killing the game! Heavies are killing the game! AV are killing the game! What isn't killing the game? Assault Swarm Launcher That is true. True Adamance wrote: My own pessimism at never having the opportunity to drive and Amarr HAV is killing this game! That is also true. Theres always money in the banana stand.
Joybox Blast Monkey 0	Posted - 2014.11.05 03:37:00 - [22] - Quote I think active scanners should show the position of the scanner to the scannees, like a sonar ping. Therefore making it a double edged sword, and thus preventing people over using them when running solo. In this situation a scanner would have to stick with his squad mates for protection. This could make for some good bait and flank gameplay.
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 173	Posted - 2014.11.05 03:43:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. One way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more I have a couple of ideas floating around in my head for a while... Active Dampeners: Pretty self explanatory. Point it at team mates, they get dampened. Only problem I feel with this is that it can get pretty stupid and it becomes a "active scanner/dampener spam war". Maybe cool down times can be increased? E-War Info Gained Only by Proximity: Information can still be shared with the entire team/squad automatically, but only with players who are near the scout/active scanner logi. This encourages grouping up as a squad and makes having 6 scouts redundant and not as effective as stomping. Scenario 1: A squad with 2 assaults, 1 logi, 2 heavies, and 1 E-war scout grouped up charge into an objective and encounter a squad of 6 scouts camping the objective. The scout squad, with their low hp, lack of logitistics abilities, and unable to communicate e-war information if they're spread out and slaying, should be no match for this well balanced squad that is focused on moving to the objective in a group. Scenario 2: Team 1 is being redlined by Team 2. Under the current set-up, all Team 2 has to do to find any possible push from Team 1 is to send out scouts and active scanner using team mates along the red line. The instant Team 1 is scanned by a single isolated scout is the same instant many players from Team 2 converge at Team 1's location to stomp them. In my proposed set-up, Team 2's players can spread out along the red line like before, but that single scout/logi isn't going to be able to automatically pin point where the push is coming from. He'll have to explain it verbally on microphones or his team will have to be aware that there is a rush that he couldn't handle alone. This way, Team 2 has a chance to get through without all of Team 1 instantly converging on them. E-War Receiver/Broadcast Amplication Modules: Players can only get E-War information if they equip this module on their suit. This reinforces the coveted "risk-reward" dynamic- Does a player give up a module slot for more HP? Or do they equip the module to get the ewar information being relayed by scouts and active scanners? These modules open up a huge door of possibilities... We can have variants that can receive E-war information from a longer distance and broadcast is a long distance. Not to mention, the possibility for a proper 4th scout e-war bonus.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 625	Posted - 2014.11.05 03:58:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. One way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more Maybe nerf the scan duration by a percentage. Squad sees 100% of scan time, team sees 50%.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2294	Posted - 2014.11.05 04:24:00 - [25] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Remove the direction indicator, sure you can see everyone but you don't know exactly what they're doing +1 Absolutely this. The secret of a good scanner mechanic that results in richer gameplay: Give partial information that requires multivariate inference on the user's part. 1) remove direction indicator. 2) make dots into fuzzy gaussian blobs representing probable location 3) introduce error - huge 'fun' to be had from misreported locations. 4) introduce falloff for accuracy, precision, etc. 5) introduce noise in scan results - also maybe certain structures could mess with scanning - reflections, ghosting, intermittentcy, inversion, etc. I suppose if we were approaching the topic more seriously we'd have to figure out how to differentiate between active and passive scans. - For passive scans i'd say keep the high scan precision but reduce the location information. this would mean that a scout with high precision would always know something was around that corner, but wouldn't know exactly where that something was. -For active scans allow good near-field location resolution but have accuracy falloff in the far-field. Once we nail down specific statistical behaviors for passive and active scans we open up a whole new family of damping modules that can target location, accuracy, precision, noise, etc. PSN: RationalSpark
Cass Caul 1431	Posted - 2014.11.05 04:39:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more Here's an idea: take away the Gal-logi bonus to active scan precision Then Medium Frames can just use 2 complex dampeners to avoid active scans, like they could in 1.4-1.7 It then becomes a choice whether to have more tank or more flank power on your Assault and Logistics. A healthier medium frame game that will be until Shared Passives are removed. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
137H4RGIC Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 265	Posted - 2014.11.05 05:35:00 - [27] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more Hear the other side of the argument, please. Gallente Logi's bonus applies to Active Scanners. -> Active Scanners were the only equipment that only gave WP rewards from squad usage. --> Passive Scans were arguably better and -all- scouts were made to be able to avoid Gal Logi scans. ----> Thereby, Gal Logi had no role. Team scanners allow the Gallente Logi to have a role, it was just done in the wrong way. The way it -SHOULD- be done is that Team Scanners should have been a separate variant with a worse precision than their Squad-based counterparts. That way there is incentive for the Gallente Logi to perform scans for his team (or his squad) on a case-by-case basis and have his bonus apply more broadly to reap the rewards like the other Logis do for their team(s). EDIT: Could do this by making three tiers of Team Scanners (Standard/Advanced/Prototype) with the following stats: Normal Precision: 60 / 55 / 50 Gal Logi 5 Precision: 51 / 46.75 / 42.5 This way, even using a team scanner your typical player would only ever be able to scan down Sentinels/Commandos (Assaults/Logis with a proto scanner); but a Gal Logi could scan down Assaults and Logis who have Prof Dampening 5 at the Proto level. Then your Gallente Logis have a new role as 'Team Support' with the Team based Active Scanners and the Squad-based active scanners are still powerful enough to hold their own weight and can be balanced accordingly. notices the poster leavs out scouts Uh huh, this guy's a scout. This is just more QQ about how scouts are getting probed down. D.U.S.T. Don't Underestimate Stupid Tryhards...
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Capital Punishment. 365	Posted - 2014.11.05 05:44:00 - [28] - Quote Sequal Rise wrote: And they are doing it for everybody! Not only scouts as I'm not one of them, but MAINLY aussault suits!!! How can we play smart, attack on flank, use any kind of "surprise" strategy, when there is constantly written at the top of your screen "You've been scanned' This absolutely ruining the assault gameplay, now everybody sees everybody, strategy is completely gone, all you can do is kill people with RR/LR from a good range. Even if they see you, they can't kill you ... Remove this shared scan thing CCP please, it is a really bad idea that needs to be undone. I partially agree with you, partially because assault suits have NO competitive role as is, scouts alpha damage from the back, heavies outlast and outgun from the front in any PC match. Casually, yep, we're screwed too if moving alone, we need to hug a squad having a good scout to be our eyes or a heavy to hide behind and be support support drawing fire or softening targets, maybe covering fire for a heavy as he moves to cover. Medium frames need the capability to have better ewar. For now just move with the blob (and check your six - constantly) www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1001	Posted - 2014.11.05 06:28:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I hear you, but how do you propose we improve the situation. ONe way would be to shorten the blip timer massively, just so you see them instantly, and no more Actually just nerf scanners a wee bit and it will also force people to wear damps We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7373	Posted - 2014.11.05 07:07:00 - [30] - Quote Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Scouts are killing the game! Heavies are killing the game! AV are killing the game! What isn't killing the game? Assault Swarm Launchers EDIT: Dammit. Just look above. Someone beat me to it Seriously CCP, why are these things still here? They are practically worthless. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.



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