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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
postapo wastelander
Wasteland Desert Rangers
491
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Posted - 2014.10.30 12:08:00 -
[211] - Quote
Evolution-7 wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I hope it worked, because the numbers I was looking at today were worse than I thought, the RR has been OP for far too long, eluding me like a hobbit What type of justification is that?
Just read this boyo
"Nanohives, repairs or droplinks, just ask me on field i can tink anything"
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1490
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:35:00 -
[212] - Quote
Ice Royal Glantix wrote:So if the RR does the best at some of the most ideal engagement ranges, why complain about the nerf? If you say it wasn't over performing in CQC, then clearly you were using it in ADS situations most of the time, and a nerf to it's CQC abilities only gimps you a small percentage of the time.
Every weapon needs to have it's weakness. If you can point out a different weakness the rail rifle has then be my guest, but as of right now the only one I can think of is its CQC ability; and, before you say that it was not good in CQC before, the rail rifle before this change was nearly as good in CQC as the AR, but with an optimal range 20-30 meters farther than the AR the minor difference in CQC abilities was not enough to offset the advantage it has.
If its unbalanced at long range, why nerf its short range?
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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postapo wastelander
Wasteland Desert Rangers
504
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:36:00 -
[213] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Ice Royal Glantix wrote:So if the RR does the best at some of the most ideal engagement ranges, why complain about the nerf? If you say it wasn't over performing in CQC, then clearly you were using it in ADS situations most of the time, and a nerf to it's CQC abilities only gimps you a small percentage of the time.
Every weapon needs to have it's weakness. If you can point out a different weakness the rail rifle has then be my guest, but as of right now the only one I can think of is its CQC ability; and, before you say that it was not good in CQC before, the rail rifle before this change was nearly as good in CQC as the AR, but with an optimal range 20-30 meters farther than the AR the minor difference in CQC abilities was not enough to offset the advantage it has. If its unbalanced at long range, why nerf its short range?
Unbalanced on long range..UNBALANCED ON LONG RANGE GTFO LIKE FOR REAL MINA
"Nanohives, repairs or droplinks, just ask me on field i can tink anything"
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1490
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:40:00 -
[214] - Quote
postapo wastelander wrote:Unbalanced on long range..UNBALANCED ON LONG RANGE GTFO LIKE FOR REAL MINA
That's what the data provided suggests more than anything. I've been trying to get the key piece of information from rattati and that's 'what range are kills taking place at'.
I think you're out of your depth in this conversation though.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1913
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Posted - 2014.10.30 15:40:00 -
[215] - Quote
I think a lot of people are misinformed about what happened to the RR and ARR and its impact. For what it's worth, I did some testing last night. Here's my post from the rifle data thread used to justify the nerf.
With apologies to the Asia players on my team for whom I was no help, I played around a bit more between PCs and queue-syncing FW tonight....
The ARR kick is different from the RR kick -- less vertical and more side to side. Making it even harder to control in CQC in relation.
My test was as follows:
Take ARR, aim at a spot on a wall, rip through entire clip of 58 rounds with hipfire, note where cursor landed. Repeat with RR clip of 42 rounds. Repeat with BrAR clip of 36 rounds. Repeat with AR clip of 60 rounds. Repeat with CR clip of 54 rounds (basic combat rifle). Repeat with ACR clip of 54 rounds (AUR BK-42 ACR).
I did all this with proto versions of the weapons (except the CR as noted above) and repeated the tests a few times as kick has some random elements to it.
Here's what I found:
The RR kicked to vertical (about 120 degrees total, and I actually had to aim down in order to measure it). The kick was mostly vertical but had some small, random left to right kick (a few degrees). The ARR kicked to about 45 to 60 degrees, less than the RR. However, the kick was much more side-to-side than the RR, often going 15 or more degrees off target. (note this is MUCH more difficult to correct for as it's also seemingly random left or right versus the mostly-vertical and much-more-predictible kick of the RR -- I suspect that's why this weapon preforms as poorly as it does in CQC and is underperforming) The BrAr kicked about half the height of its hipfire dispersion (less than 5 degrees) and about the same left to right. The AR kicked about the height of its hipifire dispersion (about 5 degrees) and about half of that little left to right. The CR had about five pixels of rise (rapid button pushing was required and total rise was a degree or two), and a pixel or two of left to right. The ACR had about five pixels of rise (same as CR) and the same left-to-right.
I think I finally understand why rifle CQC is dominated by the CR in PC, why I've preferred the BrAR since I picked it up a few weeks ago, and why the RR is so hard to control after a few shots -- the hell with DPS, it's all about the recoil profile and the resulting effective DPS. I was also a bit surprised to find the kick of the ARR even worse than the RR once I tested it and used it for a few rounds focusing on CQC encounters. ADS it's the same as it always was, but wow, the ARR may be even worse than the RR in terms of ability to put DPS on a target in CQC without stopping shooting for a third or a half of a second and allowing the gun to settle. That side to side kick is in random directions and very difficult to react to and control. No wonder I was the only one using it. lol
I think I'm going to finally bite the bullet and add a CR to my proto rifle collection once I receive the sidearm event points. Even the basic one rocks if you time the bursts. Kind of reminded me of the Burst AR from way back.... |
NextDark Knight
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
552
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Posted - 2014.10.30 16:47:00 -
[216] - Quote
The weapon is popular and being used a lot, not because it has a clear advantage in CQC. A player of the same skill with a CR will take out a RR users a high percentage of the time.
The RR has a really nice scope and is Generic Basic Weapon for the race. Compared to the AR and CR variants where the scope doesn't look as nice tends to make the RR a clear choice for the majority of players.
Is there another full auto weapon with a scope with out most of it's view taken away?
The problem isn't RR over performing, it's just a popular weapon. Making less popular by adding horrible kick is my problem with a 4x kick modifier.
You went to far. Plan and simple.
By adding a large annoyance to the weapon takes away from the nice play experience.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.
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Aramis Madrigal
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
305
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Posted - 2014.10.30 17:13:00 -
[217] - Quote
I think a lot of the complaints about the RR's kick is how it interacts with the spool up time. In order to get the recoil under control, you have to let up on the trigger, costing you precious time. This makes balancing through the addition of recoil somewhat tricky as the recoil will influence not only accuracy, but also the length of time your can output DPS without having to incur a time penalty. As it stands now, the added recoil seems a bit heavy handed, but not completely unreasonable. The RR should be at a disadvantage in CQC, but it shouldn't make someone completely ineffective at close range. I'm basing this opinion on the notion that each of the primary racial rifles should be generalist weapons with a fairly broad breadth of situations in which it is effective while maintaining distinct advantages and disadvantages based on particular circumstances.
-Aramis |
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE
Consolidated Dust
26
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Posted - 2014.10.30 17:30:00 -
[218] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I hope it worked, because the numbers I was looking at today were worse than I thought, the RR has been OP for far too long, eluding me like a hobbit
Players use the RR to cover an SP inbalance. IRL "creating space" will save your life, and in DUST helps with having weaker "tank",
Recoil will only increase perimeter play, until the new player climbs out of the SP hole or picks up a CR.
You need to tie the racial suit to the weapon, and I believe taking it even further with a Race, Racial Suit, Racial Weapon eficacy bonus will make your job and RPG better.
good luck
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1491
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Posted - 2014.10.30 17:34:00 -
[219] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:I think a lot of people are misinformed about what happened to the RR and ARR and its impact. For what it's worth, I did some testing last night. Here's my post from the rifle data thread used to justify the nerf.
With apologies to the Asia players on my team for whom I was no help, I played around a bit more between PCs and queue-syncing FW tonight.... The ARR kick is different from the RR kick -- less vertical and more side to side. Making it even harder to control in CQC in relation. My test was as follows: Take ARR, aim at a spot on a wall, rip through entire clip of 58 rounds with hipfire, note where cursor landed. Repeat with RR clip of 42 rounds. Repeat with BrAR clip of 36 rounds. Repeat with AR clip of 60 rounds. Repeat with CR clip of 54 rounds (basic combat rifle). Repeat with ACR clip of 54 rounds (AUR BK-42 ACR). I did all this with proto versions of the weapons (except the CR as noted above) and repeated the tests a few times as kick has some random elements to it. Here's what I found: The RR kicked to vertical (about 120 degrees total, and I actually had to aim down in order to measure it). The kick was mostly vertical but had some small, random left to right kick (a few degrees). The ARR kicked to about 45 to 60 degrees, less than the RR. However, the kick was much more side-to-side than the RR, often going 15 or more degrees off target. (note this is MUCH more difficult to correct for as it's also seemingly random left or right versus the mostly-vertical and much-more-predictible kick of the RR -- I suspect that's why this weapon preforms as poorly as it does in CQC and is underperforming) The BrAr kicked about half the height of its hipfire dispersion (less than 5 degrees) and about the same left to right. The AR kicked about the height of its hipifire dispersion (about 5 degrees) and about half of that little left to right. The CR had about five pixels of rise (rapid button pushing was required and total rise was a degree or two), and a pixel or two of left to right. The ACR had about five pixels of rise (same as CR) and the same left-to-right. I think I finally understand why rifle CQC is dominated by the CR in PC, why I've preferred the BrAR since I picked it up a few weeks ago, and why the RR is so hard to control after a few shots -- the hell with DPS, it's all about the recoil profile and the resulting effective DPS. I was also a bit surprised to find the kick of the ARR even worse than the RR once I tested it and used it for a few rounds focusing on CQC encounters. ADS it's the same as it always was, but wow, the ARR may be even worse than the RR in terms of ability to put DPS on a target in CQC without stopping shooting for a third or a half of a second and allowing the gun to settle. That side to side kick is in random directions and very difficult to react to and control. No wonder I was the only one using it. lol I think I'm going to finally bite the bullet and add a CR to my proto rifle collection once I receive the sidearm event points. Even the basic one rocks if you time the bursts. Kind of reminded me of the Burst AR from way back....
Thanks for this. I'm really interested in seeing how people think it's balanced for 2 rifles to kick 60 to 120 degrees, when almost every other either functionally doesn't kick, or kicks/disperses less than 5 degrees.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
552
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Posted - 2014.10.30 17:56:00 -
[220] - Quote
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote:
edit: I personally run DREN 90% of the time, because I want to help foster fun and not grief. When needed I could swap my RR for my CR, but last night I reverted back to use my DREN/AR and GEK38, because my DREN Caldari assault/RR combo is "useless" in any CQB situations.
As of last night sadly, I removed the RR variants from all my suits. Clap Clap guys, I concede you guys have won.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2014.10.30 18:53:00 -
[221] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote: Thanks for this. I'm really interested in seeing how people think it's balanced for 2 rifles to kick 60 to 120 degrees, when almost every other either functionally doesn't kick, or kicks/disperses less than 5 degrees.
You are more than welcome.
My jaw literally dropped when I did the test -- as it completely confirmed what I suspected having died innumerable times before the nerf in CQC when using the RR.
Now, I get, and even agree, that the RR should be the worst gun at CQC. It already was.
The more operative question, at least for me, is just because a weapon is overused doesn't necessarily mean it's overpowered. And, in fact, the numbers say it's not OP but is overused.
Is that really a problem? Is increasing its CQC ineffectiveness really the way to affect the solution?
These are not easy questions to answer, and I don't envy the job Rattati has to do to balance things, but should we REALLY be balancing by use rather than effectiveness? |
NextDark Knight
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
553
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Posted - 2014.10.31 19:10:00 -
[222] - Quote
I don't think this is something CPP wants to address.
Talking to various CPM members they come off as if they have already done a great job and are happy with the results.
It makes no sense that a Front Line weapon should be classed as a specialty weapon.
Like I said I personal don't like the agenda here, I stand by that this item was rail roaded due to popularity not CQC effectiveness.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.
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sir RAVEN WING
Mors Effera
36
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Posted - 2014.10.31 19:33:00 -
[223] - Quote
This doesn't make the RR useless, it just makes it better to use weapons such a Magsec SMG at close range and use RRs at medium range.
Creative with guns
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
1325
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Posted - 2014.10.31 19:35:00 -
[224] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote: Now that all suits will have native passive armor regen, there is nothing wrong with Cal Sentinels.
Yeah , that one HP / sec will be a life saver ... slap on a reactive and the most you can have is 4 so I guess it will make some type of difference but get past those shields and you have the lowest armor count , couple that with the fact that it has plasma resistance but yet instill a NK can two swipe kill you and your facing those as well as SG's on a scout that will one shot SG those shields and NK that armor that has no resistance .
Most people use RR's and CR's and couple that with the fact that the HMG is projectile and I guess you don't have anything to complain about .
No projectile resistance but I guess you and everyone else who agrees with you are right and it shouldn't matter .
A long range heavy can go a long way , I guess .
Thank you Rattati , the DEV crew and the CPM for getting the job of 1.9 done .
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GLOBAL fils'de RAGE
Consolidated Dust
29
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Posted - 2014.10.31 19:52:00 -
[225] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:True Adamance wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:So to sum up this things.. CCP Feels that the Rail Rifle is to popular so they are hitting it hard with the nerf bat. Nothing else matters besides that fact. I'd have to assume you are referring to Rattati's statment to the effect that the fine details are not as important because the rail rifle accounted for 50% of kills. 1 weapon accounting for essentially as many kills as all the others combined implies pretty strongly that it has a substantial advantage over the rest. If you have a more plausible explanation for that, I'd love to hear it. I feel like that is somewhat of a fallacy. In a competitive genre like FPS players don't necessarily gravitate to a weapon because it has a "significant" advantage they do some because a weapon has "an advantage" that being said that disparity could be anything from game breaking RoF to slight percentage more damage per round or some such nonsense. Kind of feel like the nerf was heavy handed for watching clips of the game....not to say that it did not need some alterations like this....but perhaps not as great as this initial change. And that's quite possibly true. Nobody ever accused CCP of being overly subtle about things. On the flip side, though, I think NextDark's statement that "well, it's just popular so they want to nerf it" is probably the biggest fallacy in the history of the Dust forums. CCP does a lot of things, but nerfing weapons based on forum QQ and nothing else is not one of them.
Nothing: CCP has nerfed the weapon that is carried in majority. This majority will now pay for a respec? By definition this is a pile of steaming something. |
Blueprint For Murder
Immortal Guides
200
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Posted - 2014.10.31 20:15:00 -
[226] - Quote
The progression is still way to low it and the charge time is just as ineffectual as it has always been apart from the sunset you see if you hold the trigger long after you kill someone there was no change.
21 day fast started 10/31 in respect to the discipline of Gahndi. Wizard Talk
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