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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1463
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Posted - 2014.10.28 15:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yay for arbitrary decisions by devs completely ****ing over certain roles/weapons. Hipfiring more than 15 shots causes the rail rifle to kick uncontrollably, a full magazine has you facing the skybox. There is no reason why an infantry rifle should be unable to hipfire.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1463
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Posted - 2014.10.28 15:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:The rail riffle is really really off today. I shut my playstation off because something is really wrong with it. Hopefully this is just a bad mistake.
Oh btw, wait until you pull out the bolt pistol. It should be called the Slowmotion pistol
I've turned off my system a few times already and it doesn't seem to have done anything, I've even tried waking up again. Sadly I can confirm, this is not a bad dream, this is just a terrible reality.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1464
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Posted - 2014.10.28 16:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
RayRay James wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Yay for arbitrary decisions by devs completely ****ing over certain roles/weapons. Hipfiring more than 15 shots causes the rail rifle to kick uncontrollably, a full magazine has you facing the skybox. There is no reason why an infantry rifle should be unable to hipfire. Except that infantry should never be hip firing anyways. Hip firing is completely uncontrollable. You want accuracy, bring the gun up and sight it in. I think hip firing any weapon should be DRASTICALLY inaccurate vs using the scope. Also, they don't make "arbitrary" decisions on nerfs and buffs. They have access to untolds amount of data that we couldn't ever see. It shows every aspect of every weapon, kill, death, etc. They use that data to balance everything in the game. No one goes around saying "you know what? Let's f#ck over Rail Rifles and Scouts today, see how many tears we can collect." Except maybe LogiBro, he seem's like that kind of guy
"I don't like that it can be used as a weapon in close quarters" Is by its definition arbitrary.
Sure they may have data, but this isn't the first time they've broken something completely in trying to 'fix' it. Also, talking to a former military buddy - standard procedure is to hipfire several shots if you see a threat when breaching a room. Operating off of your 'logic' here, should hipfire dispersion/kick get so bad on every weapon when hipfired that they may as well fly out of our hands and murder our entire team?
Real world logic need not apply, we're immortal mercenaries in suits of powered armor - our clones have '10hp' and they're highly enhanced, a commando could easily kill 40-80 (assuming non-superenhanced people have between 3-6 HP) individuals in one punch before myofibrils. A heavy can easily handle a 225k heavy machine gun in one hand while reloading it. Hipfiring should be incredibly easy, not 'gun becomes uncontrollable a second in'.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1464
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Posted - 2014.10.28 16:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Blueprint For Murder wrote:After 15 shots.. that seams like a lot lol.
~2 seconds of fire on a weapon that had notoriously wonky hit detection before.
Maybe to make this 'fair and balanced' all other weapons should become completely ****ing uncontrollable in 2 seconds of fire.
That would be 26 rounds for standard AR or about 35 for cr (works better on ACR cause we all know how dispersion resets on CR between shots).
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1464
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Posted - 2014.10.28 17:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I hope it worked, because the numbers I was looking at today were worse than I thought, the RR has been OP for far too long, eluding me like a hobbit
So rather than strive for actual balance, let's just make the rail rifle the old laser? cool beans ratman, good to know I can always count on you for another kick in the teeth. By the way I don't even *like* the rail rifle, despite me identifying as a caldari loyalist. I just so happen to be one of those people that tries to only use racial weapons with racial fits.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1464
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Posted - 2014.10.28 17:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:I think you guys on the CPM that are trying to curve the weapon into a role. As a caldari player, there is no point for me to run up and hack an objective if I have to turn around and run 30m away so I can shot at the enemy.
You guys been riding the Rail Riffle hate since it came out the door and forced a overnerf. I assume the Magsec SMG and the Assault Rail Rifle would be the Caldari tools for Close Quarter combat. They may not work as well as some of the other Faction's weapons, but they should be serviceable at close range.
So instead of simply being able to enter a room to hack a point I should have to run back to a supply depot to grab an assault rail rifle and/or magsec? How is this not the laser rifle problem (y'know the reason that weapon rarely ever sees actual play?)
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1464
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Posted - 2014.10.28 17:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:So rather than strive for actual balance, let's just make the rail rifle the old laser? cool beans ratman, good to know I can always count on you for another kick in the teeth. By the way I don't even *like* the rail rifle, despite me identifying as a caldari loyalist. I just so happen to be one of those people that tries to only use racial weapons with racial fits. If Rattati nerfed your weapon it is probably because it needed it. If you want a CQC weapon I suggest trying the ARR or magsec SMG. Better yet, try a race who specializes in CQC like the Gallente plasma rifle or shotgun.
It's almost like you're missing the point on purpose.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1464
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Posted - 2014.10.28 17:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:It's almost like you're missing the point on purpose. I must be using an RR... my 'b
There's other, better ways to balance something than to straight up break the arms of anyone who in this case tries to hipfire it. Lower magazine size for example can drastically affect a weapons performance at CQC, instead of having extended fire durations break your spine and point you at the skybox.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1464
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Posted - 2014.10.28 17:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Yeah, actually. That's exactly how it should work. I use the Gallente Assault Rifle and that's what I have to do every-time the battle changes to long range. Long range is where Caldari excel and rightly so, you should -ABSOLUTELY- have to go and switch weapons for CQC. Rail Rifle dominated at every range for the longest time and I'm glad they finally hit it's CQC ability even if it was almost an entire year later.
Starting to feel like making flaylock / mass driver comparisons. Apparently the blind hatred for the RR greatly exceeds the desire to see balance done in reasonable measured steps. It's starting to sound a lot less like "This was a reasonable nerf" and a lot more like "I NEVER WANT TO SEE SOMEONE USE ONE OF THESE ****ING GUNS AGAIN".
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1464
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Posted - 2014.10.28 17:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
postapo wastelander wrote:Middas Betancore wrote:My thoughts are after using it, yes its hipfire is very bad
Puts it in the same realm as the las rifle, fine for range, but up close you will probably want to give about 1/3 of your mag off the hip then probably switch to a sidearm Most will simply use the AAR (expensive) which works in CQC well u can hip fire most of ur mag if u really have to I foresee a lot of ppl will stop using the RR
Overall I find the nerf to be very harsh, but as a cal player....I can deal with it...just don't expect me to solo everyone with an sb-39
Sidenote: CQC hipfire has been used many times in combat and can never be fully discounted. When breaching a room a trained operatives hip accuracy will be a key factor in the chaotic fast paced firefights that ensue. The first British Army Commando manual strenuously impresses the importance of training in "1/4-3/4 hip stance" essentially snap off the hip shooting. We're not storming an embassy...we're in open combat
(Perhaps not entirely relevant, no this isn't a simulation, but hipfire shouldnt be just dismissed)
My final thought...it's an infantry rifle...not a support weapon Tone it down just a bit
RR overperformed other rifles and big times, this nerf is simple and smart. RRs were made like medium to long range rifles, there is no need to have them strong in CQC too. If you want CQC use ARR or make build with MAGSEC, its easy. I dont know why is here that amount of tears, RR needed balance end of story.
There's a difference between 'strong' and 'able to be used'. Yes the rail rifle needed tweaking - quadrupling the kick has overdone it.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1465
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:So rather than strive for actual balance, let's just make the rail rifle the old laser? cool beans ratman, good to know I can always count on you for another kick in the teeth. By the way I don't even *like* the rail rifle, despite me identifying as a caldari loyalist. I just so happen to be one of those people that tries to only use racial weapons with racial fits. If Rattati nerfed your weapon it is probably because it needed it. If you want a CQC weapon I suggest trying the ARR or magsec SMG. Better yet, try a race who specializes in CQC like the Gallente plasma rifle or shotgun. It's almost like you're missing the point on purpose. The point being that you want your weapon to be the best at 5m, the best at 15m, the best at 30m, the best at 50m, and the best at 80m?
Please put words I didn't actually say into my mouth, it really demonstrates the strength of your argument.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1465
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:The best weapon in CQC and the best weapon at 60+ m should not be the same weapon! How can you possibly consider that to be balanced?
But that's just it.... The RR hasn't been the best weapon in CQC for a long time now. To the contrary, it's easily the worst of all the light weapons. The CR has always owned it in CQC, and the recent buffs to AR make that weapon clearly superior (have you tried the BrAR or GEK/Duoville recently?). Even the ScR is in a better place than the RR once you get used to the overheat mechanic/timing. And FWIW, I've used the RR almost exclusively since it's introduction and play both public and PC matches with it. Hell, I can kill more efficiently with sidarms now in CQC, the RR is that bad already. Clearly, that's why Rattati took a look at the data, said it was the most over-used, and then nerfed it. Because it's the worst at CQC.
Round peg square hole stupid. The nerf it got wasn't the 'correct' one.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1465
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:Turn up your sarcasm sensitivity, Mina. I think you missed Aeon's point.
Sorry, misquoted. It was a reply to aeon not you lead.
Edit: No, wait, I quoted exactly who I meant to.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1465
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
^Shitpost elsewhere please.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1465
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
^an infantry rifle should be effective throughout its range - look at the scrambler for example. If you want to nerf a rail rifles ability to perform in CQC hit its charge time or magazine size, because that has the most effect on its ability to act upon or react to close range threats. The kick changes make it unusably inaccurate two seconds in when hipfire is a thing that should be available to all weapons.
As I've stated this is the exact same thing as the 'laser rifle problem', it doesn't see play simply because it is more often than not entirely useless as a weapon if you want to actually play the objective on domination or skirmish, which is outright bad design or an improperly targeted nerf.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1465
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Posted - 2014.10.28 19:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
postapo wastelander wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:^Shitpost elsewhere please. Its something for you, because now you are officialy in our club (LR nerf, Flaylock nerf, AR nerf, CR nerf etc.), i found that usefull maybe you will feel same after that nonsence rage
If you want to discuss the topic go ahead, if you want to be an idiot go post somewhere else.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1466
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Posted - 2014.10.28 19:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Which rifle do you actually like, Mina? Maybe you can be convinced to use it and this whole situation won't feel so bad. Caldari pride themselves in their tech, but their resourcefulness is also something to be proud of.
Which rifle feels most comfortable to you?
Doesn't matter. Racial weaponry should be used with racial suits, and to that extent they should be capable of functioning at most tasks without needing special variants.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1466
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Posted - 2014.10.28 19:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:It's almost like you're missing the point on purpose. I must be using an RR... my 'b There's other, better ways to balance something than to straight up break the arms of anyone who in this case tries to hipfire it. Lower magazine size for example can drastically affect a weapons performance at CQC, instead of having extended fire durations break your spine and point you at the skybox. Except that Dramatically lowered magazine size would also nerfs the Rail Rifle at range, and they did not want to nerf itGÇÖs ranged capabilities. Is your point that they over nerfed it, or are you upset because the longest ranged Rifle was your go-to weapon for CQC and now it does not work so good in CQC?
The nerf was incorrectly targeted, charge time would have been by far the most appropriate, and failing that some combination of charge time, ammo capacity and kick. There's a big difference between tweaking a stat upwards (like kick) or quadrupling the effect of it.
The goal should have been to make the rail less desirable to use at close quarters, not break it completely and I think that's the part that you've missed, it has been broken completely.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1467
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Posted - 2014.10.28 19:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:I think you guys on the CPM that are trying to curve the weapon into a role. As a caldari player, there is no point for me to run up and hack an objective if I have to turn around and run 30m away so I can shot at the enemy.
You guys been riding the Rail Riffle hate since it came out the door and forced a overnerf. I run lr has same weakness have u heard of sidearms ? that's what I use
So assuming caldari loadouts here (to get the most out of cal assault, and because each race should be using their respective weapons) we've got the bolt pistol with 4 shots and a crazy long chargeup... or we've got a magsec which has almost zero dispersion and really bad hit detection issues and it's also designed to be used at long ranges.
So... what sidearms should we be using? Or are we just supposed to use variant weapons all the time?
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1467
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Posted - 2014.10.28 19:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Yeah, actually. That's exactly how it should work. I use the Gallente Assault Rifle and that's what I have to do every-time the battle changes to long range. Long range is where Caldari excel and rightly so, you should -ABSOLUTELY- have to go and switch weapons for CQC. Rail Rifle dominated at every range for the longest time and I'm glad they finally hit it's CQC ability even if it was almost an entire year later. Starting to feel like making flaylock / mass driver comparisons. Apparently the blind hatred for the RR greatly exceeds the desire to see balance done in reasonable measured steps. It's starting to sound a lot less like "This was a reasonable nerf" and a lot more like "I NEVER WANT TO SEE SOMEONE USE ONE OF THESE ****ING GUNS AGAIN". Exactly how often do you shoot the Rail Rifle from the hip? I only hip fired it about 10% of the time before the nerf. And that was when using it on a Logi where I did not have a sidearm to switch to in CQC. Post nerf I would not put a RR on a Logi, just as I would not put a Sniper Rifle or Laser Rifle on a Logi. If you have skills in RR then use an ARR on your logi suits. I only have Level 1 Rail Rifle Operation, because that is all I needed to make it the most powerful all round Rifle prior to the nerf, but I will still probably give the ARR a try.
Honestly? about 30% of the time. I like being able to play the objective and I don't think anyone should be forced to resort to variant weapons to do so - Variants should be sidegrades not 'required if you don't want to be terrible'.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1467
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Posted - 2014.10.28 19:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:And neither should the best ranged weapon be viable in CQC.
You are misrepresenting information into something that hasn't ever been said. It should be viable, it should be useable. It shouldn't be the best option.
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MINA Longstrike
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1467
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:Rail tech is, by New Eden lore, supposed to be great at a distance and horrible in cqc. The nerf was needed to keep it in line. It was too good and was stepping into the roles of other weaponry that cannot fight from long ranges like the assault rifle.
The nerf has turned it from a standard service weapon into what essentially amounts to a specialist weapon. You can look back in the thread to Ceej Mantis' post and Fox Gaden's reply.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1469
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Posted - 2014.10.28 21:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Buwaro Draemon wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:^an infantry rifle should be effective throughout its range - look at the scrambler for example. If you want to nerf a rail rifles ability to perform in CQC hit its charge time or magazine size, because that has the most effect on its ability to act upon or react to close range threats. The kick changes make it unusably inaccurate two seconds in when hipfire is a thing that should be available to all weapons.
As I've stated this is the exact same thing as the 'laser rifle problem', it doesn't see play simply because it is more often than not entirely useless as a weapon if you want to actually play the objective on domination or skirmish, which is outright bad design or an improperly targeted nerf. It was stated long ago that the Rail Rifle should be the worse weapon at CQC yet you are still saying it should be usable at CQC? Many people would prefer the kick from hipfire rather than nerfing it's magazine size. Nerf magazine or charge time instead and the weapon would be underperforming at all ranges. Nerf it's CQC abilty and you are nerfing it's CQC abilty. You want to use Rails but be good at CQC? Use the ARR. Otherwise stop crying because your crutch got balanced.
Being "worse" doesn't mean it needs to be unusably bad. You are thinking about this in completely binary terms when there is no reason to be.
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MINA Longstrike
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1469
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Posted - 2014.10.28 22:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
The rail rifle *is* the breach variant rifle indy, that's supposed to be its thing. Amarr have Tactical, Minmatar have Burst and Gallente have Assault.
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MINA Longstrike
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1473
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Posted - 2014.10.29 02:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Honestly, even a short range efficacy nerf (like the laser) at 1-15 meters would have been preferable to uncontrollable kick.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1476
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Posted - 2014.10.29 14:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:Rail tech is, by New Eden lore, supposed to be great at a distance and horrible in cqc. The nerf was needed to keep it in line. It was too good and was stepping into the roles of other weaponry that cannot fight from long ranges like the assault rifle. The nerf has turned it from a standard service weapon into what essentially amounts to a specialist weapon. You can look back in the thread to Ceej Mantis' post and Fox Gaden's reply. Specialist weapons imply it can only do one thing and to that i sat you are right. This question should clear things up quite nicely. Can i kill efficiently with an assault rifle at 70+ meters? The answer is no. So then why must we assume that we ahould be able to kill efficiently with a rail rifle at less than say 20 or 30? Every rifle has is optimal and so they are specialized in that optimal role. Its not a bad thing. Players wanted variety; here it is. Each tech has its specialized role in the battlefield. Accept it. Its the way of New Eden.
You're making an intentional fallacy here with the statement that the rail rifle killed efficiently at short ranges - it didn't, it was one of the worst weapons for short range. just because it was capable of getting the job done didn't mean it was 'efficient' at it.
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MINA Longstrike
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Posted - 2014.10.29 19:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
^I'm working on getting that from rattati.
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MINA Longstrike
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1481
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Posted - 2014.10.29 22:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:So to sum up this things.. CCP Feels that the Rail Rifle is to popular so they are hitting it hard with the nerf bat. Nothing else matters besides that fact. I'd have to assume you are referring to Rattati's statment to the effect that the fine details are not as important because the rail rifle accounted for 50% of kills. 1 weapon accounting for essentially as many kills as all the others combined implies pretty strongly that it has a substantial advantage over the rest. If you have a more plausible explanation for that, I'd love to hear it.
Not necessarily, there are plenty of other reasons that it could be used so much. My belief is that quite simply it does the best at the most common and most 'ideal' engagement ranges. Like on spine delta standing on the end of the bridge you can prettymuch shoot to either the point above you, or the other end of the bridge while still being in fairly good cover and without having to move a whole lot. Where other people have to try and cross a decent chunk of open ground to try to get to you.
Not because it's overperforming in CQC.
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MINA Longstrike
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ice Royal Glantix wrote:So if the RR does the best at some of the most ideal engagement ranges, why complain about the nerf? If you say it wasn't over performing in CQC, then clearly you were using it in ADS situations most of the time, and a nerf to it's CQC abilities only gimps you a small percentage of the time.
Every weapon needs to have it's weakness. If you can point out a different weakness the rail rifle has then be my guest, but as of right now the only one I can think of is its CQC ability; and, before you say that it was not good in CQC before, the rail rifle before this change was nearly as good in CQC as the AR, but with an optimal range 20-30 meters farther than the AR the minor difference in CQC abilities was not enough to offset the advantage it has.
If its unbalanced at long range, why nerf its short range?
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MINA Longstrike
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
postapo wastelander wrote:Unbalanced on long range..UNBALANCED ON LONG RANGE GTFO LIKE FOR REAL MINA
That's what the data provided suggests more than anything. I've been trying to get the key piece of information from rattati and that's 'what range are kills taking place at'.
I think you're out of your depth in this conversation though.
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MINA Longstrike
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Posted - 2014.10.30 17:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:I think a lot of people are misinformed about what happened to the RR and ARR and its impact. For what it's worth, I did some testing last night. Here's my post from the rifle data thread used to justify the nerf.
With apologies to the Asia players on my team for whom I was no help, I played around a bit more between PCs and queue-syncing FW tonight.... The ARR kick is different from the RR kick -- less vertical and more side to side. Making it even harder to control in CQC in relation. My test was as follows: Take ARR, aim at a spot on a wall, rip through entire clip of 58 rounds with hipfire, note where cursor landed. Repeat with RR clip of 42 rounds. Repeat with BrAR clip of 36 rounds. Repeat with AR clip of 60 rounds. Repeat with CR clip of 54 rounds (basic combat rifle). Repeat with ACR clip of 54 rounds (AUR BK-42 ACR). I did all this with proto versions of the weapons (except the CR as noted above) and repeated the tests a few times as kick has some random elements to it. Here's what I found: The RR kicked to vertical (about 120 degrees total, and I actually had to aim down in order to measure it). The kick was mostly vertical but had some small, random left to right kick (a few degrees). The ARR kicked to about 45 to 60 degrees, less than the RR. However, the kick was much more side-to-side than the RR, often going 15 or more degrees off target. (note this is MUCH more difficult to correct for as it's also seemingly random left or right versus the mostly-vertical and much-more-predictible kick of the RR -- I suspect that's why this weapon preforms as poorly as it does in CQC and is underperforming) The BrAr kicked about half the height of its hipfire dispersion (less than 5 degrees) and about the same left to right. The AR kicked about the height of its hipifire dispersion (about 5 degrees) and about half of that little left to right. The CR had about five pixels of rise (rapid button pushing was required and total rise was a degree or two), and a pixel or two of left to right. The ACR had about five pixels of rise (same as CR) and the same left-to-right. I think I finally understand why rifle CQC is dominated by the CR in PC, why I've preferred the BrAR since I picked it up a few weeks ago, and why the RR is so hard to control after a few shots -- the hell with DPS, it's all about the recoil profile and the resulting effective DPS. I was also a bit surprised to find the kick of the ARR even worse than the RR once I tested it and used it for a few rounds focusing on CQC encounters. ADS it's the same as it always was, but wow, the ARR may be even worse than the RR in terms of ability to put DPS on a target in CQC without stopping shooting for a third or a half of a second and allowing the gun to settle. That side to side kick is in random directions and very difficult to react to and control. No wonder I was the only one using it. lol I think I'm going to finally bite the bullet and add a CR to my proto rifle collection once I receive the sidearm event points. Even the basic one rocks if you time the bursts. Kind of reminded me of the Burst AR from way back....
Thanks for this. I'm really interested in seeing how people think it's balanced for 2 rifles to kick 60 to 120 degrees, when almost every other either functionally doesn't kick, or kicks/disperses less than 5 degrees.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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