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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3962	Posted - 2014.10.25 09:54:00 - [1] - Quote There was at one point a double-input problem on the Kb/m that has long since been fixed. Now that this is out of the way... DS3 has always held the dominant position in this game as the go-to control. The only people who choose kb/m are the ones who are comfortable with the interface. People who choose it for some imagined superiority are idiots. So why was the kb/m nerfed? First rule of competitive gaming: Manipulate public and developer opinion and convince them all that a minor advantage is in fact an insurmountable one. Use this to enforce crippling limits or the removal of competing playstyles in order to insure your playstyle will be the undisputed dominant one, allowing you to minimize your competition by marginalizing and minimizing the impact of said playstyles, thus removing entire groups from competitive play. See: almost every nerf demanded by "top players" aimed at minimizing the efficacy of enemy doctrines in order to insure a clear advantage in their chosen game modes. This is why the kb/m was nerfed to hell. CCP fell for it once. Rattati seems to be less likely to fall for it again. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Fleen Costell'o Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 464	Posted - 2014.10.25 09:56:00 - [2] - Quote In GT6 DS3 module 30mb. In Dust514 DS3 module 30 kb. lol DS4 + PS3 + DUST514 - 30 FPS Max = NO GOOD // DS4 + PS4 + DUST514 + 60 FPS = WERY G-+-+-+-+D
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4276	Posted - 2014.10.25 10:06:00 - [3] - Quote The hardest of the hardcore benefit the most from using KBM while using programs to essentially remap the control scheme and still retain DS3 controller AA. Balancing KBM vs DS3's is probably a fool's errand. The current climate IMO with the SUPER limited AA dust has (moderate if you are very close but even then it pales in comparison to other console shooters) produces an unhealthy power to skill ratio...hence the crazy KDR's of players who have very high skill levels...this is not true always...but is very common. Where in other FPS the majority of high KDR's are content with 2 or in rare cases a 3 KDR...in Dust they would be expected to have much higher KDR's. Obviously this needs to be qualified with the fact that SP and gear and such also play a role. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3962	Posted - 2014.10.25 10:15:00 - [4] - Quote The point is people gravitate to the controls they are comfortable with. Familiarity and comfort are an unstated competitive edge and the only one that matters. But if you can disrupt that and make people who would otherwise compete with you uncomfortable playing the game you win by default. They either quit or they operate with a handicap even if they are using the SAME interface you are. A lot of the gameplay problems we have today can be traced back to the "you must play my way" attitude that was relentlessly pushed during beta development. Instead of developing the game organically things were shoehorned into roles that do not make sense and control assets that aided in drawing players were changed for the worse. The current dev team and CPM are shouldering the blame and BS for past bad decisions while trying to clean the mess of blood and vomit off the walls. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Haerr Clone Manque 1680	Posted - 2014.10.25 11:32:00 - [5] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The hardest of the hardcore benefit the most from using KBM while using programs to essentially remap the control scheme and still retain DS3 controller AA. Even if we are given flawless mouse input in Dust those who have already adapted to using a GIMX / Eagle Eye / XIM will not stop using them. If there is a advantage, does not matter if it is real or only perceived, hardcore competitive players will still use it. The artificial limitations, whether intended (as balancing factors) or not (bugs, lack of settings), of using mouse in Dust have already been circumvented. What is left is providing value to the rest of the (non-hardcore) customer base by removing any obstacles to using their preferred input method. Haerr's huge list of wish for 1.9 - 1.10: Fix mouse support.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2142	Posted - 2014.10.25 11:38:00 - [6] - Quote I play with KB/M because I am a long time PC gamer. I came from eve and one of the first things CCP said was that "We will fully support KB/M". Now back in chromosome KB/M wasn't perfect but it felt a lot more fluid and responsive than it does now. Then everything changed with Uprising 1.0 and as a KB/M player it was almost like I had to learn the controls from scratch again. Ive never really used gamepads all that much. I have to use it though if I want to fly a dropship, its nigh on impossible to fly with KB/M. There are a lot of things, glitches, errors, annoyances that KB/M players have to put up with yet constantly people keep wrongly screaming that we still have some sort of advantage. The only ones who have an advantage are those that use external hardware. The rest of us get shafted. This is one of the major reasons I look forwards to Legion. I know I dont have the best 'gun game' in FPS`s but I can play Battlefield on PC or Call of Duty or what ever else and I do not struggle to aim. In Dust however I have a real hard time tracking and staying on target. I believe if others tried out KB/M in this game then they would soon see all of the negatives associated with it. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Fleen Costell'o Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 465	Posted - 2014.10.25 11:49:00 - [7] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The hardest of the hardcore benefit the most from using KBM while using programs to essentially remap the control scheme and still retain DS3 controller AA. Balancing KBM vs DS3's is probably a fool's errand. The current climate IMO with the SUPER limited AA dust has (moderate if you are very close but even then it pales in comparison to other console shooters) produces an unhealthy power to skill ratio...hence the crazy KDR's of players who have very high skill levels...this is not true always...but is very common. Where in other FPS the majority of high KDR's are content with 2 or in rare cases a 3 KDR...in Dust they would be expected to have much higher KDR's. Obviously this needs to be qualified with the fact that SP and gear and such also play a role. Edit: I was just talking about this. and video about power to skill ratio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w more skilled in writing macros? used programmed KB/M this skill in FPS? Realy? used too LAN card in PC and spam internet channel? this is SKILL? DS4 + PS3 + DUST514 - 30 FPS Max = NO GOOD // DS4 + PS4 + DUST514 + 60 FPS = WERY G-+-+-+-+D
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3966	Posted - 2014.10.25 11:53:00 - [8] - Quote Anecdotal commentary no evidence provided. CCP has deemed any method of artificially increasing lag to be an exploit and thus bannable. If people are pulling that why have you not reported them? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 265	Posted - 2014.10.25 12:59:00 - [9] - Quote Kbm gives a huge advantage when applied to tanks Wsad keys move tanks faster and allow you to turn sharper than ds3..it used to be so with strafing as well..kbm can still out run ds3 tanks 10 times over no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3967	Posted - 2014.10.25 13:04:00 - [10] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Kbm gives a huge advantage when applied to tanks Wsad keys move tanks faster and allow you to turn sharper than ds3..it used to be so with strafing as well..kbm can still out run ds3 tanks 10 times over That was a double input exploit that allowed players to use the DS3 and Keyboard in tandem to effect the speed limits. It has since been removed from the game. It was what I was talking about at the top. It's no longer possible to exceed hard limits on turret and turn rates EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2258	Posted - 2014.10.25 13:35:00 - [11] - Quote Truth is CCP cheesed the code for both the DS3 and kb/m input systems. This is why DUST feels so awkward with AA turned off. Go read all the metacritic reviews and tally up the cases where peeps mention 'controls' or 'fps mechanics' or 'unfinished mpfps' or 'average fps mechanics' or 'buggy/glitchy' or 'cheap production values' or 'laughable shooting mechanics' and you get a big number: i count at least 79 separate mentions by roughly 100 reviewers(and i've filtered out comments about terrain/object interaction). The question of DS3 vs kb/m never got tested or resolved in DUST because the basic input and control mechanics were never brought up to a professional level. To my knowledge CCP has not acknowledged this. My personal biggest fear for Legion is that the entities who make the decisions at CCP have their heads so far up their asses that they think they can cheese it a second time. PSN: RationalSpark
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 266	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:02:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Kbm gives a huge advantage when applied to tanks Wsad keys move tanks faster and allow you to turn sharper than ds3..it used to be so with strafing as well..kbm can still out run ds3 tanks 10 times over That was a double input exploit that allowed players to use the DS3 and Keyboard in tandem to effect the speed limits. It has since been removed from the game. It was what I was talking about at the top. It's no longer possible to exceed hard limits on turret and turn rates No just kbm gives you an edge you can test it you can turn sharper and accelerate through turns because you can input forward and left or right directional commands at the same time.ccp foolishly has tank controls accel mapped to an analog stick like old lav controls. I do not know about strafing but with tanks kbm counts because of ds3 ****** control scheme I've made several threads about it anyone who knows driving knows having accel mapped to the analog tied into directional commands puts you at a distinct disadvantage on kbm I can give a right 100% command and accel 100% on ds3 if you turn analog stick right it let's off accel as forward Is accel the easy solution to ds3 kbm issue with tanks is create an alternate control scheme with a mapped accel and reverse button like the new lav control scheme vs old..The old lav scheme us slower in many things than new and at disadvantage to kbm ..Unlike the new one which has mapped accel and deceleration buttons no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
X7 lion Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 389	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:05:00 - [13] - Quote no matter what the do to it usign a mouse is facualty more accurate then using a controll, assuming those you test this with can use both reasonably you will find those who are compitent at both kb/m and controller will always be more accurate with a controller, this is not imagined its a fact of the controlls. Do not contribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance. being contradictory is not the same as being offensive.
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 426	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:09:00 - [14] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Anecdotal commentary no evidence provided. CCP has deemed any method of artificially increasing lag to be an exploit and thus bannable. If people are pulling that why have you not reported them? Some good that does?! Proving the bs in this game is virtually impossible?! The modded controller users are Cleary their, and we can tell by how CCP nerfs rifle after rifle, but none of them can be banned?! Plenty of guys record bs in dust and send it in, but how can you tell who's doing it? "Anybody order chaos?"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3968	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:25:00 - [15] - Quote I was more referring to channel spam. External hardware isn't something game companies are allowed to regulate because your home, your setup your business. Privacy laws aren't something any corp can touch without opening themselves to massive lawsuits, so modded controls will always be a thing. All that can be done is to mitigate. Channel spam however, can be tracked and CCP Iceland has passed the edict that Mail/channel spamming people to increase their client-side lag is forbidden on the tranquility server. I do not recall a DUST exception to this edict and we play on the tranquility server. It is also TRACKABLE. So if someone is channel spamming a game then they can be reported for exploits that are laid out as verboten. Sabotaging another player's client through artificial lag isn't something CCP tends to put up with anymore because it jacks things up for them. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3968	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:29:00 - [16] - Quote X7 lion wrote: no matter what the do to it usign a mouse is facualty more accurate then using a controll, assuming those you test this with can use both reasonably you will find those who are compitent at both kb/m and controller will always be more accurate with a controller, this is not imagined its a fact of the controlls. You're mixing your statements there. It's coming out incoherent. Kb/m has better fine control. DS3 gets smoother more fluid movement. Whether you're more comfortable with smooth controls or anally precise controls is the deciding factor here. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
X7 lion Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 390	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:36:00 - [17] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: X7 lion wrote: no matter what the do to it usign a mouse is facualty more accurate then using a controll, assuming those you test this with can use both reasonably you will find those who are compitent at both kb/m and controller will always be more accurate with a controller, this is not imagined its a fact of the controlls. You're mixing your statements there. It's coming out incoherent. Kb/m has better fine control. DS3 gets smoother more fluid movement. Whether you're more comfortable with smooth controls or anally precise controls is the deciding factor here. no im not mixing statments, if you had some one who could use both, they would be more accurate with a kb/m fact. Do not contribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance. being contradictory is not the same as being offensive.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3969	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:39:00 - [18] - Quote Only to a point. The KB/m doesn't make you an aiming ninja magically by dint of potential. And aim assist makes up the difference. God I hate running aim assist when I use controllers. It badly jacks my aim up for some reason. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2226	Posted - 2014.10.25 15:16:00 - [19] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The point is people gravitate to the controls they are comfortable with. Familiarity and comfort are an unstated competitive edge and the only one that matters. But if you can disrupt that and make people who would otherwise compete with you uncomfortable playing the game you win by default. They either quit or they operate with a handicap even if they are using the SAME interface you are. A lot of the gameplay problems we have today can be traced back to the "you must play my way" attitude that was relentlessly pushed during beta development. Instead of developing the game organically things were shoehorned into roles that do not make sense and control assets that aided in drawing players were changed for the worse. The current dev team and CPM are shouldering the blame and BS for past bad decisions while trying to clean the mess of blood and vomit off the walls. lol.......... I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 267	Posted - 2014.10.25 15:19:00 - [20] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: The point is people gravitate to the controls they are comfortable with. Familiarity and comfort are an unstated competitive edge and the only one that matters. But if you can disrupt that and make people who would otherwise compete with you uncomfortable playing the game you win by default. They either quit or they operate with a handicap even if they are using the SAME interface you are. A lot of the gameplay problems we have today can be traced back to the "you must play my way" attitude that was relentlessly pushed during beta development. Instead of developing the game organically things were shoehorned into roles that do not make sense and control assets that aided in drawing players were changed for the worse. The current dev team and CPM are shouldering the blame and BS for past bad decisions while trying to clean the mess of blood and vomit off the walls. lol.......... Your a tanker I respect what your opinion kbm vs ds3 when applied to tanks only ...am I not right? Doesn't kbm give you an edge I've been tanking since day one kbm has always sat in my lap for when I fight players like slap or try harder who are skilled and tank kbm ..i used to for lavs as well till we got new ds3 control schemes no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3972	Posted - 2014.10.25 15:41:00 - [21] - Quote You also need to understand one point of perspective for me. I can't afford an adjustable DPI mouse and it seems all of the changes to KB/m can only be mitigated even slightly if you have one. So I don't know how to set one up. My point, though I should have included this earlier is that the kb/m is no more competititive than the DS3. But the DS3 controls are hands-down the WORST I have seen in any game from the PS1 all the way through today. The kb/m needs to be unscrewed. But the DS3 needs to be fixed right alongside it. Both control schemes are insane in their frustration level. All you can do is try to minimize the utter crap. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 54	Posted - 2014.10.25 16:05:00 - [22] - Quote So, as someone who has (badly) run HAVs, has an adjustable DPI mouse, and religiously uses KB/M, I can say the following: The acceleration advantage conferred by the digital input of a keyboard is entirely nullified by the significantly better aiming controls of a DS3. I've said it before, and now I've said and will say it again. Turret traverse with a mouse is so ridiculously, painfully slow that I literally have to turn the entire vehicle to get anywhere near an acceptable traverse rate. It's been a few weeks, but before I came back from my hiatus in DUST, I was playing a bit of Battlefield 4. When using the tanks, I never had to turn the entire vehicle to I could turn the turret fast enough to shoot stuff. In DUST, every time I jump in a tank, then either I have to do that, or treat the vehicle as a mobile bunker with the small turrets pointed in a direction that allows them to not need to turn a whole lot... which is reasonably entertaining, but I shouldn't have to use an HAV like a mobile bunker (because that's stupid), and I shouldn't have to be limited to turning the entire vehicle just so I can aim the main gun. Now, as far as adjustable DPI and mitigating changes... I actually don't know. I do have an adjustable DPI mouse- a Logitech G500s (it was ~US$50 on Amazon), and the default DPI setting is three levels, which are mapped to 400/800/2000 dpi. More importantly, the poll rate is set at 500 Hz. I'll now link this thread. As a summary of said thread, there were multiple players- including myself- who were able to independently verify that setting your mouse's poll rate as close to 100 Hz as possible provided a drastic performance increase. In my specific case, I used to play DUST at a 500 Hz poll rate and 2000 DPI. I now play at 125 Hz and 800 DPI; the specifics of why I had to drop my DPI down that far are held in the thread, but long story short it has to do with the fact that the PS3 uses a practical poll rate of 100 Hz, and getting as close as possible to that results in fewer dropped data packets between the mouse and the PS3. A possible work-around is using a "cheap" mouse, since AFAIK it's usually the case that lower-end mice have a lower built-in poll rate. Unfortunately (for me), it has had no effect on turret sensitivity, and for some strange reason the in-game sensitivity settings are no longer applying whatsoever... but I definitely feel like my mouse is working much smoother now, even with using a significantly lower DPI setting. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4278	Posted - 2014.10.25 17:27:00 - [23] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Only to a point. The KB/m doesn't make you an aiming ninja magically by dint of potential. And aim assist makes up the difference. God I hate running aim assist when I use controllers. It badly jacks my aim up for some reason. The AA in this game feels nonexistent outside of very close quarters. And then again does not affect certain weapons. Mouse has indisputably faster turn speed than ds3 iirc. The time it takes a maxed out mouse to complete a 180 when being attacked from behind compared to a ds3 with max setting doing the same is verifiably biased towards mice, no? (i feel really confident about this assertion for some reason but if someone has proof otherwise lemme know) So not only do you gain advantages for CQC in turn speed but your aiming are longer ranges is considerably more accurate with a mouse. Complete balance would necessitate skewing it in the ds3's favor IMO because aiming with 2 thumbsticks vs the precision you obtain using your entire wrist/arm is definitely harder. As is though it just sucks using anything but a KBM setup taking advantage of programs to remap. But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4278	Posted - 2014.10.25 17:29:00 - [24] - Quote PS...all the best tanks know that using both was the way to go. Attorney General would use KBM for the acceleration and ds3 for fine aiming and moving over certain terrain where the fluidity of the ds3 was needed to scale certain mountains and the like. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 272	Posted - 2014.10.25 18:04:00 - [25] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: PS...all the best tanks know that using both was the way to go. Attorney General would use KBM for the acceleration and ds3 for fine aiming and moving over certain terrain where the fluidity of the ds3 was needed to scale certain mountains and the like. Yurp just drop ur left hand off ur ds3 to yr Wsad keys and wallah nitrous I went so far as to learn how to use my controller for firing tank turret one handed so I don't have to switch no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 56	Posted - 2014.10.25 18:05:00 - [26] - Quote The use of third party devices (like the XIM) to use KB/M as a sort of bastardized DS3 emulator are, quite frankly, something that should be ignored for the purposes of control support. It's not something that you can actually regulate, and it generally seems like the sort of thing that is overly expensive to use... for DUST at least. The other issue that you seem to be ignoring is that there was some evidence presented that the AA also includes a degree of bullet magnetism- XxGhazbaranxX had at least two videos on the AA in DUST, you should really check them out. At this point the only reason I persist in using KB/M is because I'm too stubborn and set in my ways to use a DS3 when playing DUST. As far as how to balance DS3 and KB/M... quite frankly, whatever they did to it in Chrome was pretty much perfect. As such, it's my opinion that returning the control input to be much closer to Chrome would actually fix roughly 99% of all control input issues. After all, it's very clear that even back in Chrome, the build universally considered to be the proverbial "holy grail" of KB/M controls in DUST, all of the top-tier players used a DS3, and not a KB/M. I'd say that's a pretty clear indication of one of two things: 1) Control inputs were effectively equal, and the top-tier players simply preferred the DS3 to the KB/M. 2) Even in Chrome, the DS3 was still better than the KB/M by some minuscule amount. Every single other game I have for my PS3 I find the DS3 to offer a very functional control scheme... about the only things I dislike about the DS3 really come down to ergonomics rather than input utility. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3975	Posted - 2014.10.25 19:59:00 - [27] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: about the only things I dislike about the DS3 really come down to ergonomics rather than input utility. Pretty much why I hate using it. it feels lunky and awkward. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 532	Posted - 2014.10.25 20:24:00 - [28] - Quote I went to the doctor to see if I might be rtarded. He said there is one surefire way to tell if you are rtarded. He handed me a PS3 controller and said that if I can use that effectively while playing a video game then you are definitely r*tarded. Frag FX Shark (or Piranha) FTW. THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2014.10.25 20:46:00 - [29] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Pretty much why I hate using it. it feels lunky and awkward. Yeah, I mean, the DS3 is an okay controller, but it doesn't feel like it stacks up to the X360's controller. I don't know about the XBONE/PS4, as I've never used either of those, but I much prefer my X360 controller to my DS3. It just feels much more comfortable. Granted, for a shooter I generally prefer the KB/M over either controller, but there's a small handful that I actually enjoy using an X360 controller for. Operative 1125 Lokaas wrote: Frag FX Shark (or Piranha) FTW. On the subject of half-a-gamepad, half-a-mouse 3rd party control devices, I tried the Tuact Aimon. It's okay, and I ended just using the mouse component since I could program the thumb buttons to be equal to a single keystroke, so I set melee, grenade, and IIRC reload on three of those... but then it stopped working and I went back to a regular mouse. Overall though, I've heard a lot of bad things about Frag FX build quality; the Tuact Aimon, IMO, was solid as a rock. It did eventually stop working, and at that point I just opted to go back to a regular, cheap wired USB mouse- I just felt it was easier to do that than try and replace the nonfunctional Aimon. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
DTOracle BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 352	Posted - 2014.10.25 22:55:00 - [30] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Only to a point. The KB/m doesn't make you an aiming ninja magically by dint of potential. And aim assist makes up the difference. God I hate running aim assist when I use controllers. It badly jacks my aim up for some reason. The AA in this game feels nonexistent outside of very close quarters. And then again does not affect certain weapons. Mouse has indisputably faster turn speed than ds3 iirc. The time it takes a maxed out mouse to complete a 180 when being attacked from behind compared to a ds3 with max setting doing the same is verifiably biased towards mice, no? (i feel really confident about this assertion for some reason but if someone has proof otherwise lemme know) So not only do you gain advantages for CQC in turn speed but your aiming are longer ranges is considerably more accurate with a mouse. Complete balance would necessitate skewing it in the ds3's favor IMO because aiming with 2 thumbsticks vs the precision you obtain using your entire wrist/arm is definitely harder. As is though it just sucks using anything but a KBM setup taking advantage of programs to remap. But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. Yes you can turn faster. but the lack of AA(specifically, bullet magnetism) make a massive difference. So much so, that I keep a DS3 handy if I decide to use a rifle fit. Somehow Dust has pixel perfect accuracy when using a KB/M. As in the pixels between their legs or right next to their head. If I were using a DS3 all bullets fired would register, just so long as i'm 'close enough'.

Haerr Clone Manque 1686	Posted - 2014.10.26 10:04:00 - [31] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. More AA? That unfugging better be nothing less than flawless perfection. Haerr's huge list of wish for 1.9 - 1.10: Fix mouse support.
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 960	Posted - 2014.10.26 10:28:00 - [32] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: First rule of competitive gaming: Manipulate public and developer opinion and convince them all that a minor advantage is in fact an insurmountable one. Use this to enforce crippling limits or the removal of competing playstyles in order to insure your playstyle will be the undisputed dominant one, allowing you to minimize your competition by marginalizing and minimizing the impact of said playstyles, thus removing entire groups from competitive play. See: almost every nerf demanded by "top players" aimed at minimizing the efficacy of enemy doctrines in order to insure a clear advantage in their chosen game modes. First rule of a whiny forumbased fps community, not of competitive gaming as a whole Also there is a pretty big thing in the way of m/kb being fully viable, which is the unreal engine itself By default on most games "OneFrameThreadLag=TRUE" will be the case 99% of the time, what it does is simple: it delays all input recieved by the game by a single frame and then processes it on the next frame It improves performance at the cost of adding a core delay of inputs, due to mouse being such an accurate input method compared to ds3, it is the one that is affected the most You can tweak the mouse all you want, if this flag is still set to true then myself and alot of people are still going to be using the ds3 Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 960	Posted - 2014.10.26 10:38:00 - [33] - Quote DTOracle wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Only to a point. The KB/m doesn't make you an aiming ninja magically by dint of potential. And aim assist makes up the difference. God I hate running aim assist when I use controllers. It badly jacks my aim up for some reason. The AA in this game feels nonexistent outside of very close quarters. And then again does not affect certain weapons. Mouse has indisputably faster turn speed than ds3 iirc. The time it takes a maxed out mouse to complete a 180 when being attacked from behind compared to a ds3 with max setting doing the same is verifiably biased towards mice, no? (i feel really confident about this assertion for some reason but if someone has proof otherwise lemme know) So not only do you gain advantages for CQC in turn speed but your aiming are longer ranges is considerably more accurate with a mouse. Complete balance would necessitate skewing it in the ds3's favor IMO because aiming with 2 thumbsticks vs the precision you obtain using your entire wrist/arm is definitely harder. As is though it just sucks using anything but a KBM setup taking advantage of programs to remap. But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. Yes you can turn faster. but the lack of AA(specifically, bullet magnetism) make a massive difference. So much so, that I keep a DS3 handy if I decide to use a rifle fit. Somehow Dust has pixel perfect accuracy when using a KB/M. As in the pixels between their legs or right next to their head. If I were using a DS3 all bullets fired would register, just so long as i'm 'close enough'. AA is there to assist people who can't aim as well as others what you are describing later in the post is you missing constantly and assuming its something wrong with the mouse, when in reality you are just missing Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
DTOracle BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 354	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:07:00 - [34] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: what you are describing later in the post is you missing constantly and assuming its something to do with AA and the mouse not having it, when in reality you are just missing No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3.
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 898	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:21:00 - [35] - Quote Considering this is a PS3 exclusive they should have just made everyone use the DS3 from the beginning. If you want to use kb/m go join the lolpcmasterrace.
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 962	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:32:00 - [36] - Quote DTOracle wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: what you are describing later in the post is you missing constantly and assuming its something to do with AA and the mouse not having it, when in reality you are just missing No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3. If you can manage to find a stationary target, go test it for yourself. What you are referring to is bullet spread and cognitive bias is why you believe that its a problem with the game and not you, I too switch between both modes (AA turned off for DS3) and do not have this issue, the only issue i have with the kb/m is that its using a terrible emulation that feels like it has inherent mouse acceleration, plus the fact that all inputs are delayed by one frame Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 962	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:34:00 - [37] - Quote Dust User wrote: Considering this is a PS3 exclusive they should have just made everyone use the DS3 from the beginning. If you want to use kb/m go join the lolpcmasterrace. #greenlightlegion Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1383	Posted - 2014.10.26 15:14:00 - [38] - Quote Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd like to see the AA toned down or removed on DS3 to even the playing field although, Judging by the fact CCP have not acknowledged the issue is likely because they cannot work out a way to completely even out the advantages over which you use. I would not like to see KB/M given an advantage over other gamers again as it was bad before that and the vast majority of gamers on DUST new and old would use a DS3. It's not like handing a minority of gamers a distinct advantage over others has ever caused issue before Innapropriate Irrelevence...
DTOracle BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 354	Posted - 2014.10.26 17:57:00 - [39] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: DTOracle wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: what you are describing later in the post is you missing constantly and assuming its something to do with AA and the mouse not having it, when in reality you are just missing No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3. If you can manage to find a stationary target, go test it for yourself. What you are referring to is bullet spread and cognitive bias is why you believe that its a problem with the game and not you, I too switch between both modes (AA turned off for DS3) and do not have this issue, the only issue i have with the kb/m is that its using a terrible emulation that feels like it has inherent mouse acceleration, plus the fact that all inputs are delayed by one frame You clearly don't understand my point. If you turn on AA with the DS3, then maybe you might understand. Everything you have stated if true, but has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. AA does include slight bullet magnetism, which will cause shots to hit a target when the reticle is not exactly on target. I'm talking very close, but 'NOT' on target. If you play with a DS3 w/ AA off, then you have no idea what it is that i'm referring to. As for the mouse. Find out what the polling rate of your mouse is. If it is higher than 100-125hz then your mouse is over reporting to the PS3 & will feel sluggish as a result.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3992	Posted - 2014.10.26 18:13:00 - [40] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd like to see the AA toned down or removed on DS3 to even the playing field although, Judging by the fact CCP have not acknowledged the issue is likely because they cannot work out a way to completely even out the advantages over which you use. I would not like to see KB/M given an advantage over other gamers again as it was bad before that and the vast majority of gamers on DUST new and old would use a DS3. It's not like handing a minority of gamers a distinct advantage over others has ever caused issue before this statement is, and always has been, unproven anecdote. If it handed players a clear advantage why was it all of the leaderboard toppers were always DS3 players? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Quiet Conviction Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.10.26 19:44:00 - [41] - Quote Back in Chromosome I used to use KB/M with a Burst AR and back then it was significantly smoother than now. I use a pad for everything but fine precision work (Forging, sniping etc). I've even switched to my trackball and while it felt smoother than a mouse, it still feels clunky as hell. Split personality of an Open Beta Vet. Running "Light Assault" since Chromosome.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 62	Posted - 2014.10.26 20:53:00 - [42] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Also there is a pretty big thing in the way of m/kb being fully viable, which is the unreal engine itself By default on most games "OneFrameThreadLag=TRUE" will be the case 99% of the time, what it does is simple: it delays all input recieved by the game by a single frame and then processes it on the next frame I believe the general consensus is that almost all UE3 games are set in that way, and that it actually isn't noticeable if whatever platform you pick can drive the framerate high, and then keep it there. DUST seems to have some optimization issues that prevent the game from doing so. DTOracle wrote: No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3. If you can manage to find a stationary target, go test it for yourself. This bullet magnetism that you speak of... A guy named Ghazbaran did a video about it. Here's an earlier one as well, that's a little longer and more in depth. Dust User wrote: Considering this is a PS3 exclusive they should have just made everyone use the DS3 from the beginning. If you want to use kb/m go join the lolpcmasterrace. Please don't say stupid things, because it won't take long for me to call you out as being stupid. TheD1CK wrote: Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd have addressed this... for somewhere around the thousandth time, but.... Breakin Stuff wrote: this statement is, and always has been, unproven anecdote. If it handed players a clear advantage why was it all of the leaderboard toppers were always DS3 players? Breakin has already covered it. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4283	Posted - 2014.10.26 23:03:00 - [43] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd like to see the AA toned down or removed on DS3 to even the playing field Removing the limited AA present would only deepen the already large chasm created by the skill in to power out ratio present in dust. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4283	Posted - 2014.10.26 23:09:00 - [44] - Quote Ghazbaran's first video seems pointless as he used a weapon that has dispersion which would possibly account for some damage being applies despite the reticule not being red. Furthermore I'd be asking if the hitbox is larger than the character models (meaning it's perfectly possible to hit while your reticule not being red. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:07:00 - [45] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Only to a point. The KB/m doesn't make you an aiming ninja magically by dint of potential. And aim assist makes up the difference. God I hate running aim assist when I use controllers. It badly jacks my aim up for some reason. The AA in this game feels nonexistent outside of very close quarters. And then again does not affect certain weapons. Mouse has indisputably faster turn speed than ds3 iirc. The time it takes a maxed out mouse to complete a 180 when being attacked from behind compared to a ds3 with max setting doing the same is verifiably biased towards mice, no? (i feel really confident about this assertion for some reason but if someone has proof otherwise lemme know) So not only do you gain advantages for CQC in turn speed but your aiming are longer ranges is considerably more accurate with a mouse. Complete balance would necessitate skewing it in the ds3's favor IMO because aiming with 2 thumbsticks vs the precision you obtain using your entire wrist/arm is definitely harder. As is though it just sucks using anything but a KBM setup taking advantage of programs to remap. But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. This is merely an assumption. One that is incorrect. As you stated, a "fully maxed out" controller will move faster than a controller when getting shot from behind. Then you say you also get improved aiming. You don't. If the mouse is set super high you lose fine precision aiming. It's one or the other -- not both. Medically speaking -- the muscles in the thumb are, when trained, far more accurate than your arm wrist. As far as game play is concerned -- this is mulitplied by not having to deal with surface traction and gravity issues of the limb. The BEST FPS players in the world have always used a trackball for a reason. The simple fact of the matter is that mice don't change tensile values like controllers do with wear. This is, itself, exagerated by the fact that the ps3 controller has traditionally had somewhat overly soft sticks. 3rd party controllers with firm sticks are far more accurate. Assuming someone doesn't cheat using an autofire button (I'm looking at you former ScR cheaters) it is entirely a matter of getting more precise equipment for controller users to compete on par with mouse/keyboard users. A poster above said that mouse users are more accurate. That if someone could use both that they would always do better with the m/Kb. This is catagorically false. I am a former professional FPS players from the late 90's early 2ks. I payed for college, my house, and my car with prize money back when we could actually earn enough to do so. I am very good with the m/Kb. All that being said -- I stopped PC gaming close to 10 years ago and started console gaming due to having a life. I can catagorically deny that the m/KB is better. I score better in this game with a controller. A decade of controller use has trained my thumb quite well. I am more accurate with the controller. The controller is not better than the mouse -- it is merely a different physical skillset. Hence, despite having a mouse and keyboard, I use the controller. An issue may exist with people using programmable mice and keyboards to gain an advantage. Of course it exists. I cannot comment on that. Of course, an issue exists with people using programmable 3rd party controllers. Of course it exists. I cannot comment on that either. Saying that one group of players have an advantage in hardware is foolish -- both groups are capable and, in fact, DO buy programmable hardware and run macros/scripts. Both controller players like myself and m/Kb players like some of my buddies. That is an entirely seperate issue. All of that being said: The KBM confers a strafing advantage that shouldn't exist. Inertia should be applied to suits. The instant strafe back and forth with suits (especially pronounced on certain high speed suits) allows KB to slip through bullets that they shouldn't. Inertia would auto balance suits -- the faster the suit the longer the strafe time but larger the gap created. The m/Kb is also better than the ds3 for movement when driving vehicles as many people have stated. They are significantly worse when aiming in turrets. That is not a controller/mKb issue -- that is a CCP needing to adjust the control schemes issue. Programmable m/Kbs and programmable controllers are the only ones that get around this at this time. The controller is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the m/kb when flying dropships. It's a full on advantage. This also needs to be corrected via control scheme, I cannot comment on Aim Assist. As stated I'm FPS infancy era. Never had it so never used it and I turn it off if it all possible.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 857	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:20:00 - [46] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: PS...all the best tanks know that using both was the way to go. Attorney General would use KBM for the acceleration and ds3 for fine aiming and moving over certain terrain where the fluidity of the ds3 was needed to scale certain mountains and the like. Yurp just drop ur left hand off ur ds3 to yr Wsad keys and wallah nitrous I went so far as to learn how to use my controller for firing tank turret one handed so I don't have to switch Yeah, that must have taken a lot of learning? Don't you just hold the controller in your right hand, move the right joystick and press R1? How many months did it take you to learn that?
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 857	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:22:00 - [47] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd like to see the AA toned down or removed on DS3 to even the playing field Removing the limited AA present would only deepen the already large chasm created by the skill in to power out ratio present in dust. So many people scared of having their precious AA removed...
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1159	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:25:00 - [48] - Quote KB/M strafe + Cal Scout = win But seriously though if your good at KB/M you can stomp. Problemsare learning and getting comfortable with wasd and mouse Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Michael Arck 5900	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:39:00 - [49] - Quote I enjoyed reading your opinions Breakin Stuff. Completely agree with your thoughts. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
DTOracle BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 354	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:49:00 - [50] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ghazbaran's first video seems pointless as he used a weapon that has dispersion which would possibly account for some damage being applies despite the reticule not being red. Furthermore I'd be asking if the hitbox is larger than the character models (meaning it's perfectly possible to hit while your reticule not being red. The video's may also be quite dated (the 2nd is nearly a year old), perhaps it might be better to have more recent video's that are crowdsourced for better beedback...or simply ask the devs for info (I'll get on that). If you do the same test with a mouse, you will notice pixel perfect accuracy. Regardless of dispersion, if your reticle is not red your shots will not hit when using a mouse. Victor Moody Stahl wrote: This bullet magnetism that you speak of... A guy named Ghazbaran did a video about it. Here's an earlier one as well, that's a little longer and more in depth. Thanks for the link

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2014.10.27 01:37:00 - [51] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: As you stated, a "fully maxed out" controller will move faster than a controller when getting shot from behind. Then you say you also get improved aiming. You don't. If the mouse is set super high you lose fine precision aiming. It's one or the other -- not both. I just wanted to chip in on this, and comment that it is indeed correct. When I changed my mouse's poll rate down to 125 Hz to get as close to the PS3 USB poll rate of 100 Hz, I found that my 2000 dpi, 75 hip/52 ADS sensitivity was waaay too twitchy, to the point that I could probably have spun 360 degrees in under a second, but I wouldn't have been able to hit anything, even with a MD. Of course, doing so did break the in-game sensitivity in that it's no longer effecting how sensitive my mouse is, but since it's having no effect and I've already got my sense where I want it I don't actually care that much. [quote=Imp Smash]Medically speaking -- the muscles in the thumb are, when trained, far more accurate than your arm wrist. As far as game play is concerned -- this is mulitplied by not having to deal with surface traction and gravity issues of the limb. The BEST FPS players in the world have always used a trackball for a reason. Quote: Huh, did not know that. That's actually very interesting. [quote=Imp Smash]A poster above said that mouse users are more accurate. That if someone could use both that they would always do better with the m/Kb. This is catagorically false. I am a former professional FPS players from the late 90's early 2ks. I payed for college, my house, and my car with prize money back when we could actually earn enough to do so. I am very good with the m/Kb. All that being said -- I stopped PC gaming close to 10 years ago and started console gaming due to having a life.[quote] I can catagorically deny that the m/KB is better. I score better in this game with a controller. A decade of controller use has trained my thumb quite well. I am more accurate with the controller. The controller is not better than the mouse -- it is merely a different physical skillset. Hence, despite having a mouse and keyboard, I use the controller. It is a matter of preference and now I prefer the controller. Playing devil's advocate here, the argument could be made that you're simply very long out of practice with a KB/M setup compared to a controller setup. That being said, it's my opinion that what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works. And apparently quote limits will make this a two-parter. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2014.10.27 01:45:00 - [52] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: ---On VERIFIABLE advantages to control schemes All of that being said: The KBM confers a strafing advantage that shouldn't exist. Better Inertia should be applied to suits. The instant strafe back and forth with suits (especially pronounced on certain high speed suits) allows KB to slip through bullets that they shouldn't. Inertia would auto balance suits -- the faster the suit the longer the strafe time but larger the gap created creating different strafe patterns with faster suits being more flexible. As someone who uses a keyboard, I can pretty confidently say that it's actually not a KB-related issue that causes what you're describing. I would argue, rather, that's it's the lack of inertia (which you did mention), and that it's also likely that what you're facing is an exceptionally good circle or figure-8 strafer- a strafing maneuver that is, from a practical standpoint, impossible to perform on a keyboard when under fire. The main reason I bring this up is that it's the sort of thing where- particularly in the case of a figure-8 strafe- it looks a lot like a simple left/right strafe, but it's actually quite different; I myself have some difficulty distinguishing between the two, but I can say quite confidently that the inertia-less strafe mechanics are broken. There's been more than a few times that a point-blank fight that, IMO, I should have had at least a fighting chance has ended with my at the spawn screen because I simply could not track my opponent- even with a mouse. Imp Smash wrote: The m/Kb is also better than the ds3 for movement when driving vehicles as many people have stated. They are significantly worse when aiming in turrets. That is not a controller/mKb issue -- that is a CCP needing to adjust the control schemes issue. Programmable m/Kbs and programmable controllers are the only ones that get around this at this time. As far as vehicle movement being a case of KB/M>DS3... I respectfully disagree. I would argue that in the case of LAVs, changing the DS3 input scheme for the LAV in the options makes it the equal of the KB; the potential advantage of being able to accelerate while turning, at least in my experience, is offset by the fact that it's often difficult to make a tight, slow turn. Turret aiming is terrible with a mouse, and if it is indeed also terrible with a DS3 (I don't actually know, I only pull out the DS3 when I try to fly derpships), then you're right, that's just a general turret aiming issue. Imp Smash wrote: The controller is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the m/kb when flying dropships. It's a full on advantage. This also needs to be corrected via control scheme, I somewhat disagree; the KB/M scheme for derpships is so terrible that's it's really just unusable. It's less that it's bad and DS3 is better, so much so that it's flat out broken and the DS3-derpship scheme isn't. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 179	Posted - 2014.10.27 01:55:00 - [53] - Quote There is no debate just like there is no debate which is faster between clicking and binding if you think other wise it is because you fail get good. PC gamer for too long, I use ds3 only because dust is a console game and I don't have a desk in my living room; I did bring kb and mouse down for a few days to give it a go though it is way more responsive and accurate than ds3. What we have are players and tryhards the players are here to kill stuff in a competitive atmosphere and the tryhards do there best to exploit broken game mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlsSecuzE8 The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
The Master Race Immortal Guides 181	Posted - 2014.10.27 01:55:00 - [54] - Quote There is no debate just like there is no debate which is faster between clicking and binding if you think other wise it is because you fail get good. PC gamer for too long, I use ds3 only because dust is a console game and I don't have a desk in my living room; I did bring kb and mouse down for a few days to give it a go though it is way more responsive and accurate than ds3. What we have are players and tryhards the players are here to kill stuff in a competitive atmosphere and the tryhards do there best to exploit broken game mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlsSecuzE8 The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:46:00 - [55] - Quote Victor, if I may respond to your well written post. As far as mKb goes -- I have mostly quit PC gaming -- but there IS 1 series I still play-- BF. Ever since BF2 I have been a fan. So that is the one game (currently BF4 and its constant crashing) I still play and I use mKb. And I do very well. As I stated -- competitive play was once my job. I can use mKb pretty good. I just do better with a DS3 in Dust. Which is why I 1000% agree -- as you said, "what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works." But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss. Finally let me apologize for not being more specific. When i was referring to vehicles I should have specified Tanks. mKb is better for tanks. DS is better for LaVs and Dropships. Other than that you get 2 likes from me. @Blueprint Blueprint For Murder wrote: There is no debate just like there is no debate which is faster between clicking and binding if you think other wise it is because you fail get good. PC gamer for too long, I use ds3 only because dust is a console game and I don't have a desk in my living room; I did bring kb and mouse down for a few days to give it a go though it is way more responsive and accurate than ds3. What we have are players and tryhards the players are here to kill stuff in a competitive atmosphere and the tryhards do there best to exploit broken game mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlsSecuzE8 As per me and Victor's earlier conversation -- do you not think that it is possible that you simply do better with mKb because you are used to it?
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4284	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:47:00 - [56] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: ----On that statement This is merely an assumption. One that is incorrect. As you stated, a "fully maxed out" controller will move faster than a controller when getting shot from behind. Then you say you also get improved aiming. You don't. If the mouse is set super high you lose fine precision aiming. It's one or the other -- not both. Medically speaking -- the muscles in the thumb are, when trained, far more accurate than your arm wrist. As far as game play is concerned -- this is mulitplied by not having to deal with surface traction and gravity issues of the limb. The BEST FPS players in the world have always used a trackball for a reason. The simple fact of the matter is that mice don't change tensile values like controllers do with wear. This is, itself, exagerated by the fact that the ps3 controller has traditionally had somewhat overly soft sticks. 3rd party controllers with firm sticks are far more accurate. Assuming someone doesn't cheat using an autofire button (I'm looking at you former ScR cheaters) it is entirely a matter of getting more precise equipment and practicing (ie 'getting gud') for controller users to compete on par with mouse/keyboard users. This is grossly misinformed. And your credentials are no more accepted than 8213 posting he was #1 Doom #1 MLG Halo #1 [insert FPS title here] won x # of tourneys it's utter bullshit bro. here's 2 article's you can contest if you like. http://www.totalxbox.com/21262/xbox-vs-pc-scrapped-because-of-imbalance/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2011/1/24 One makes reference to the infamous microsoft situation that these debates always end up referring to where they found that console players got destroyed by PC players. The 2nd is an interview with a developer of Monday Night Combat about the process of how they attempted to bridge the gap between controllers and KBM users. A few quotes: Quote: Now, all these systems sound like cheating but they all revolve around the same concept; make the time to aim as small as possible. None of these systems are needed on the PC because that time can get to be nearly zero by sheer player skill. Quote: We were in the process of tweaking how the Gunner and Tank jump jets work. Why? Because with a mouse and keyboard, you can now jump and aim at the same time. With the console controller thereGÇÖs an additional time penalty to be paid to move your thumb off the jump button and back onto the right thumb stick in order to aim while jumping. Pay special attention to the parts discussing: View acceleration View friction View adhesion Aim attraction B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4284	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:49:00 - [57] - Quote It's just plain silly when people post up "Hey don't worry bro, I am ______________________" That'd be like me saying: "Hey bro, don't talk to me about dust I have 70+kills, a higher k/d than you, and over 3500 hours spent playing the game." B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 69	Posted - 2014.10.27 04:17:00 - [58] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Victor, if I may respond to your well written post. As far as mKb goes -- I have mostly quit PC gaming -- but there IS 1 series I still play-- BF. Ever since BF2 I have been a fan. So that is the one game (currently BF4 and its constant crashing) I still play and I use mKb. And I do very well. As I stated -- competitive play was once my job. I can use mKb pretty good. I just do better with a DS3 in Dust. Which is why I 1000% agree -- as you said, "what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works." Oh, I see. Ultimately though, it is a wash- as we agree that whatever a person is most comfortable with is what they will do best with. That said, I do feel slightly smug... but only because my entry to the BF franchise was way back with BF Vietnam- though 2142 was by far my favorite. Unfortunately, the more recent entries have not been my cup of tea. BF3 ended up feeling ultra-grindy, and I got bored with BF4 just before the September patch went live. I haven't played since then, and I think I'll probably end up passing on it until Final Stand releases. Imp Smash wrote: But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss. I'll admit that I'm still skeptical about this. Maybe it's just because I've never managed to actually get that "instaswitch" strafe to actually work... but that's probably down to the fact that I'm an average-at-best player. My gut feeling is that we, the community, either need to test it ourselves or jam a few fingers in CCP's eye(s) to get them to do it. Which also fully explains why I can't figure-8 strafe on a keyboard... but hey, figure-8 is overrated when faced with anywhere from 4-6 meters of explosive hate radius. MD>mad strafing skills. Or at least, that's what I'll tell myself to feel less bad. Imp Smash wrote:* Finally let me apologize for not being more specific. When i was referring to vehicles I should have specified Tanks. mKb is better for tanks. DS is better for LaVs and Dropships. Ah, I see. I don't think I necessarily agree, but I can certainly understand the perspective. Maybe we just need to get some testing done. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 274	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:58:00 - [59] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Imp Smash wrote: But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss. I'll admit that I'm still skeptical about this. Maybe it's just because I've never managed to actually get that "instaswitch" strafe to actually work... but that's probably down to the fact that I'm an average-at-best player. My gut feeling is that we, the community, either need to test it ourselves or jam a few fingers in CCP's eye(s) to get them to do it. Which also fully explains why I can't figure-8 strafe on a keyboard... but hey, figure-8 is overrated when faced with anywhere from 4-6 meters of explosive hate radius. MD>mad strafing skills. Or at least, that's what I'll tell myself to feel less bad. . I should be clear here too. It's redundant on the keyboard. I am good -- but by no means elite. My skills are no where near where they used to be during InstaGib Rail Quake days. And I knew no one that ran a dodge pattern like that. Here as well I never do. 'Capable of' is not the same as 'good at' or even 'viable'. It's just doable. And imo redundant. Zatara Rought wrote:* This is grossly misinformed. And your credentials are no more accepted than 8213 posting he was #1 Doom #1 MLG Halo #1 [insert FPS title here] won x # of tourneys it's utter bullshit bro. Well I am not surprised at how you took that although I am surprised at how you ran with it. Let me be clear. You should not, nor do I want you to, take my word based on what I may or may not have done 15 years ago. These were not listed as credentials nor do I expect anyone to take me at my word. As it is the internet anyone can say anything. I merely posted it so that you could imagine the perspective I am coming from. Whether you believe it or not has no basis on what you should be considering -- the rationale of my statements. Had I posted "I have never played video games before YESTERDAY" instead you should still consider the rationale as opposed to my background whether said background is real or imagined. If you are going to claim it is 'grossly misinformed' you may wish to actually refute my points individually as opposed to a blanket statement as a group. At least -- if you don't want to look biased. Zatara Rought wrote: here's 2 article's you can contest if you like. http://www.totalxbox.com/21262/xbox-vs-pc-scrapped-because-of-imbalance/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2011/1/24 One makes reference to the infamous microsoft situation that these debates always end up referring to where they found that console players got destroyed by PC players. The 2nd is an interview with a developer of Monday Night Combat about the process of how they attempted to bridge the gap between controllers and KBM users. A few quotes: Pay special attention to the parts discussing: View acceleration View friction View adhesion Aim attraction I don't need to refute these articles. They do not specifically refute anything I said. They do illustrate how control input has evolved. A stick CAN be as accurate as a mouse -- it's just a higher learning curve. But if you insist-- things not covered include: how well the bridge attempts worked out (in the Penny arcade article.) The actual control and input schemes in Shadowrun. It said was that the console players couldn't keep up --> Some but not quite enough exact discussion and specifics about the input schemes occurred. The fact that longtime console players have, literally, a decade plus of a practice headstart over controller users (how COULD anyone overlook that -- surely it would make sense that it's a big deal >.>... ) However, you do make a point that I overlooked. Specifically the increase in the number of input options on the keyboard plus generally mapping allowing mKb to lose less time when making inputs. That is something I failed to mention and it is an entirely valid concern. However that is also a mapping issue. When a better controller or customizable inputs for DS3 (some 3rd party controllers can do this I believe) you can do everything you need to do without taking your thumb off of either stick. Conversely -- mKb players can't be as fast/accurate with grenades as DS3 players due to grenade being on the X button. Borderlands did quite well in this respect with fully customizable input options. (I think it was borderlands, my memory is hazy.) And I always recommend x control scheme over Y control scheme due to not having to take your thumb off of the right stick to perform an action and therefore be able to aim simultaneously. So yes -- due to the mapping there are a few other areas I neglected to mention. However this does not refute my points either as input mapping can potentially solve these issues.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 274	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:59:00 - [60] - Quote So let me try to summarize my point and opinion. I think (and I may be wrong) that the debate between mKb and DS3 can really only exist in the areas where they are fundamentally different. They fundamentally differ in how they input data with the KB having instant on off input with no neutral ground required plus a variety of input options and the mouse which is arguably more accurate or less accurate than a stick. Oh and the limited number of input options on the pad available to fingers besides the thumbs which are otherwise occupied. Again, if you want to correct me feel free. It's all my 2 isk. However, please discuss each point as opposed to a blanket statement of 'this is all misinformed.' With respect, An ornery gamer.

Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1039	Posted - 2014.10.27 07:10:00 - [61] - Quote kb and m is awful nough said. cant aim at all and a mouse is nowhere near as accurate as a thumb on a stick. pc gamers are notorious trolls and insecure about being pc gamers. google why was red dead redemption never released on pc and read through the ign article. lol pc gamers so bitter. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4009	Posted - 2014.10.27 07:51:00 - [62] - Quote Simple fact: Most console gamers are goddamn annoying and entitled on top of being clueless. Most PC gamers are ragey entitled a$$holes who don't realize they're clueless. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Haerr Clone Manque 1702	Posted - 2014.10.27 11:54:00 - [63] - Quote At least there seems to be some common ground in the bottom line. Both control schemes can stand to be improved upon. To DS3 users the current Tank acceleration controls are unnecessarily limited, a version of the LAV control scheme would feel a lot better. (As Morte has suggested before.) To mouse users the limiting of mouse response to input while using turret and dropship controls is counterintuitive. Using similar aiming mechanics to flight-sims would help a lot. Someone suggested UT3 like controls for dropships. For turrets the tank controls in War Thunder seems like a good choice. Various hindrances need to be lifted from mouse controls. (These have been posted in separate threads and even a summary would take up too much space here.) Getting both control schemes to at least feel up to par with how decent controls in other games feel like ought to be a goal to work towards. Allowing players more options and settings (remapping pretty please!) to enable players to fine tune their controls to their own liking would be a huge step in terms of player customisability. (Customisability is a point of pride for Dust, isn't it?) After both control schemes have been improved upon the picture will be a lot clearer for which place AA needs to have. For without having the ability to pit players, who are using control schemes that they are both familiar and comfortable in using, against each other how can we really see (and empirically test) how much AA that is appropriate for Dust? Think of it as time saving effort. Fix both control schemes first, then use clean empirical data directly from Dust to help balance just how strong the AA in Dust needs to be. If it would help to setup monitored matches to see the performance of, and compare, the control schemes you already have hordes of dedicated players that are more than willing to take part. Several of which are comfortable enough in using either control scheme. (Not me though, I have just barely figured out which part of the DS3 that is up...) If Legion is going to be on both PCs and PS4s wouldn't it make sense to start figuring this out as soon as possible? Haerr's huge list of wish for 1.9 - 1.10: Fix mouse support.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 802	Posted - 2014.10.27 12:02:00 - [64] - Quote Before any improvements to either DS3 or KB/M are made CCP seriously needs to fix PS Move first! PS Move currently is the most useless of all the input methods and both DS3 and KB/M are OP compared to Move! And don't tell me that you won't fix it because too few people are using it! The reason why no one is using Move is because it's ****, not because no one prefers to use it over the other two input methods. So, please fix PS Move first! (or stop supporting it entirely and get rid of that annoying info screen when I start the game! ) DUST514 is love // @JebusMcKing
Haerr Clone Manque 1703	Posted - 2014.10.27 12:15:00 - [65] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: bladibla Yeah, that's great. Can you go away now? Edit: Hold on, let's log on and play a few matches! Haerr's huge list of wish for 1.9 - 1.10: Fix mouse support.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 110	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:54:00 - [66] - Quote I am tired of aim assist, I have thoroughly given up on ALL pistols and rifles in dust514 whenever I use mouse and keyboard (I use both m/kb and DS3 depending on where I am playing). On m/kb I strictly use weapons that are balanced around not having aim assist help them apply damage. (Flaylock, Mass Driver, Plasma Cannon, Swarm Launcher, Nova Knives, etc). My advice to those using mouse and have control over DPI and settings: Keep the polling as LOW AS POSSIBLE Keep the DPI to low or medium (I use 1250 dpi) Turn the Mouse Acceleration higher than you would normally have it. This will filter alot of the "jitter" when you are trying to make small movements with the mouse (near impossible in DUST514 for some reason). Trust me on this point and try it out. Adjust Mouse Speed to flavor, and to compensate for high acceleration. I hope this helps.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 279	Posted - 2014.10.28 00:30:00 - [67] - Quote Haerr wrote: At least there seems to be some common ground in the bottom line. Both control schemes can stand to be improved upon. To DS3 users the current Tank acceleration controls are unnecessarily limited, a version of the LAV control scheme would feel a lot better. (As Morte has suggested before.) To mouse users the limiting of mouse response to input while using turret and dropship controls is counterintuitive. Using similar aiming mechanics to flight-sims would help a lot. Someone suggested UT3 like controls for dropships. For turrets the tank controls in War Thunder seems like a good choice. Various hindrances need to be lifted from mouse controls. (These have been posted in separate threads and even a summary would take up too much space here.) Getting both control schemes to at least feel up to par with how decent controls in other games feel like ought to be a goal to work towards. Allowing players more options and settings (remapping pretty please!) to enable players to fine tune their controls to their own liking would be a huge step in terms of player customisability. (Customisability is a point of pride for Dust, isn't it?) After both control schemes have been improved upon the picture will be a lot clearer for which place AA needs to have. For without having the ability to pit players, who are using control schemes that they are both familiar and comfortable in using, against each other how can we really see (and empirically test) how much AA that is appropriate for Dust? Think of it as time saving effort. Fix both control schemes first, then use clean empirical data directly from Dust to help balance just how strong the AA in Dust needs to be. If it would help to setup monitored matches to see the performance of, and compare, the control schemes you already have hordes of dedicated players that are more than willing to take part. Several of which are comfortable enough in using either control scheme. (Not me though, I have just barely figured out which part of the DS3 that is up...) If Legion is going to be on both PCs and PS4s wouldn't it make sense to start figuring this out as soon as possible? Yay.


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