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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2014.10.25 16:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, as someone who has (badly) run HAVs, has an adjustable DPI mouse, and religiously uses KB/M, I can say the following:
The acceleration advantage conferred by the digital input of a keyboard is entirely nullified by the significantly better aiming controls of a DS3. I've said it before, and now I've said and will say it again. Turret traverse with a mouse is so ridiculously, painfully slow that I literally have to turn the entire vehicle to get anywhere near an acceptable traverse rate.
It's been a few weeks, but before I came back from my hiatus in DUST, I was playing a bit of Battlefield 4. When using the tanks, I never had to turn the entire vehicle to I could turn the turret fast enough to shoot stuff. In DUST, every time I jump in a tank, then either I have to do that, or treat the vehicle as a mobile bunker with the small turrets pointed in a direction that allows them to not need to turn a whole lot... which is reasonably entertaining, but I shouldn't have to use an HAV like a mobile bunker (because that's stupid), and I shouldn't have to be limited to turning the entire vehicle just so I can aim the main gun.
Now, as far as adjustable DPI and mitigating changes... I actually don't know. I do have an adjustable DPI mouse- a Logitech G500s (it was ~US$50 on Amazon), and the default DPI setting is three levels, which are mapped to 400/800/2000 dpi. More importantly, the poll rate is set at 500 Hz.
I'll now link this thread.
As a summary of said thread, there were multiple players- including myself- who were able to independently verify that setting your mouse's poll rate as close to 100 Hz as possible provided a drastic performance increase. In my specific case, I used to play DUST at a 500 Hz poll rate and 2000 DPI.
I now play at 125 Hz and 800 DPI; the specifics of why I had to drop my DPI down that far are held in the thread, but long story short it has to do with the fact that the PS3 uses a practical poll rate of 100 Hz, and getting as close as possible to that results in fewer dropped data packets between the mouse and the PS3.
A possible work-around is using a "cheap" mouse, since AFAIK it's usually the case that lower-end mice have a lower built-in poll rate.
Unfortunately (for me), it has had no effect on turret sensitivity, and for some strange reason the in-game sensitivity settings are no longer applying whatsoever... but I definitely feel like my mouse is working much smoother now, even with using a significantly lower DPI setting.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
56
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Posted - 2014.10.25 18:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
The use of third party devices (like the XIM) to use KB/M as a sort of bastardized DS3 emulator are, quite frankly, something that should be ignored for the purposes of control support. It's not something that you can actually regulate, and it generally seems like the sort of thing that is overly expensive to use... for DUST at least.
The other issue that you seem to be ignoring is that there was some evidence presented that the AA also includes a degree of bullet magnetism- XxGhazbaranxX had at least two videos on the AA in DUST, you should really check them out.
At this point the only reason I persist in using KB/M is because I'm too stubborn and set in my ways to use a DS3 when playing DUST. As far as how to balance DS3 and KB/M... quite frankly, whatever they did to it in Chrome was pretty much perfect. As such, it's my opinion that returning the control input to be much closer to Chrome would actually fix roughly 99% of all control input issues.
After all, it's very clear that even back in Chrome, the build universally considered to be the proverbial "holy grail" of KB/M controls in DUST, all of the top-tier players used a DS3, and not a KB/M. I'd say that's a pretty clear indication of one of two things:
1) Control inputs were effectively equal, and the top-tier players simply preferred the DS3 to the KB/M.
2) Even in Chrome, the DS3 was still better than the KB/M by some minuscule amount.
Every single other game I have for my PS3 I find the DS3 to offer a very functional control scheme... about the only things I dislike about the DS3 really come down to ergonomics rather than input utility.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2014.10.25 20:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Pretty much why I hate using it. it feels lunky and awkward.
Yeah, I mean, the DS3 is an okay controller, but it doesn't feel like it stacks up to the X360's controller. I don't know about the XBONE/PS4, as I've never used either of those, but I much prefer my X360 controller to my DS3. It just feels much more comfortable.
Granted, for a shooter I generally prefer the KB/M over either controller, but there's a small handful that I actually enjoy using an X360 controller for.
Operative 1125 Lokaas wrote:Frag FX Shark (or Piranha) FTW.
On the subject of half-a-gamepad, half-a-mouse 3rd party control devices, I tried the Tuact Aimon. It's okay, and I ended just using the mouse component since I could program the thumb buttons to be equal to a single keystroke, so I set melee, grenade, and IIRC reload on three of those... but then it stopped working and I went back to a regular mouse.
Overall though, I've heard a lot of bad things about Frag FX build quality; the Tuact Aimon, IMO, was solid as a rock. It did eventually stop working, and at that point I just opted to go back to a regular, cheap wired USB mouse- I just felt it was easier to do that than try and replace the nonfunctional Aimon.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
62
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Posted - 2014.10.26 20:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tech De Ra wrote:Also there is a pretty big thing in the way of m/kb being fully viable, which is the unreal engine itself
By default on most games "OneFrameThreadLag=TRUE" will be the case 99% of the time, what it does is simple: it delays all input recieved by the game by a single frame and then processes it on the next frame
I believe the general consensus is that almost all UE3 games are set in that way, and that it actually isn't noticeable if whatever platform you pick can drive the framerate high, and then keep it there. DUST seems to have some optimization issues that prevent the game from doing so.
DTOracle wrote:No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3. If you can manage to find a stationary target, go test it for yourself.
This bullet magnetism that you speak of...
A guy named Ghazbaran did a video about it. Here's an earlier one as well, that's a little longer and more in depth.
Dust User wrote:Considering this is a PS3 exclusive they should have just made everyone use the DS3 from the beginning.
If you want to use kb/m go join the lolpcmasterrace.
Please don't say stupid things, because it won't take long for me to call you out as being stupid.
TheD1CK wrote:Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers
And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side.
I'd have addressed this... for somewhere around the thousandth time, but....
Breakin Stuff wrote:this statement is, and always has been, unproven anecdote.
If it handed players a clear advantage why was it all of the leaderboard toppers were always DS3 players?
Breakin has already covered it.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
66
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Posted - 2014.10.27 01:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:As you stated, a "fully maxed out" controller will move faster than a controller when getting shot from behind. Then you say you also get improved aiming.
You don't. If the mouse is set super high you lose fine precision aiming. It's one or the other -- not both.
I just wanted to chip in on this, and comment that it is indeed correct. When I changed my mouse's poll rate down to 125 Hz to get as close to the PS3 USB poll rate of 100 Hz, I found that my 2000 dpi, 75 hip/52 ADS sensitivity was waaay too twitchy, to the point that I could probably have spun 360 degrees in under a second, but I wouldn't have been able to hit anything, even with a MD.
Of course, doing so did break the in-game sensitivity in that it's no longer effecting how sensitive my mouse is, but since it's having no effect and I've already got my sense where I want it I don't actually care that much.
[quote=Imp Smash]Medically speaking -- the muscles in the thumb are, when trained, far more accurate than your arm wrist. As far as game play is concerned -- this is mulitplied by not having to deal with surface traction and gravity issues of the limb. The BEST FPS players in the world have always used a trackball for a reason.Quote:
Huh, did not know that. That's actually very interesting.
[quote=Imp Smash]A poster above said that mouse users are more accurate. That if someone could use both that they would always do better with the m/Kb. This is catagorically false. I am a former professional FPS players from the late 90's early 2ks. I payed for college, my house, and my car with prize money back when we could actually earn enough to do so. I am very good with the m/Kb. All that being said -- I stopped PC gaming close to 10 years ago and started console gaming due to having a life.[quote]
I can catagorically deny that the m/KB is better. I score better in this game with a controller. A decade of controller use has trained my thumb quite well. I am more accurate with the controller. The controller is not better than the mouse -- it is merely a different physical skillset. Hence, despite having a mouse and keyboard, I use the controller. It is a matter of preference and now I prefer the controller.
Playing devil's advocate here, the argument could be made that you're simply very long out of practice with a KB/M setup compared to a controller setup. That being said, it's my opinion that what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works.
And apparently quote limits will make this a two-parter.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 01:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:---On VERIFIABLE advantages to control schemes
All of that being said:
The KBM confers a strafing advantage that shouldn't exist. Better Inertia should be applied to suits. The instant strafe back and forth with suits (especially pronounced on certain high speed suits) allows KB to slip through bullets that they shouldn't. Inertia would auto balance suits -- the faster the suit the longer the strafe time but larger the gap created creating different strafe patterns with faster suits being more flexible.
As someone who uses a keyboard, I can pretty confidently say that it's actually not a KB-related issue that causes what you're describing. I would argue, rather, that's it's the lack of inertia (which you did mention), and that it's also likely that what you're facing is an exceptionally good circle or figure-8 strafer- a strafing maneuver that is, from a practical standpoint, impossible to perform on a keyboard when under fire.
The main reason I bring this up is that it's the sort of thing where- particularly in the case of a figure-8 strafe- it looks a lot like a simple left/right strafe, but it's actually quite different; I myself have some difficulty distinguishing between the two, but I can say quite confidently that the inertia-less strafe mechanics are broken.
There's been more than a few times that a point-blank fight that, IMO, I should have had at least a fighting chance has ended with my at the spawn screen because I simply could not track my opponent- even with a mouse.
Imp Smash wrote:The m/Kb is also better than the ds3 for movement when driving vehicles as many people have stated. They are significantly worse when aiming in turrets. That is not a controller/mKb issue -- that is a CCP needing to adjust the control schemes issue. Programmable m/Kbs and programmable controllers are the only ones that get around this at this time.
As far as vehicle movement being a case of KB/M>DS3... I respectfully disagree. I would argue that in the case of LAVs, changing the DS3 input scheme for the LAV in the options makes it the equal of the KB; the potential advantage of being able to accelerate while turning, at least in my experience, is offset by the fact that it's often difficult to make a tight, slow turn.
Turret aiming is terrible with a mouse, and if it is indeed also terrible with a DS3 (I don't actually know, I only pull out the DS3 when I try to fly derpships), then you're right, that's just a general turret aiming issue.
Imp Smash wrote:The controller is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the m/kb when flying dropships. It's a full on advantage. This also needs to be corrected via control scheme,
I somewhat disagree; the KB/M scheme for derpships is so terrible that's it's really just unusable. It's less that it's bad and DS3 is better, so much so that it's flat out broken and the DS3-derpship scheme isn't.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
69
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 04:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Victor, if I may respond to your well written post.
As far as mKb goes -- I have mostly quit PC gaming -- but there IS 1 series I still play-- BF. Ever since BF2 I have been a fan. So that is the one game (currently BF4 and its constant crashing) I still play and I use mKb. And I do very well. As I stated -- competitive play was once my job. I can use mKb pretty good. I just do better with a DS3 in Dust. Which is why I 1000% agree -- as you said, "what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works."
Oh, I see. Ultimately though, it is a wash- as we agree that whatever a person is most comfortable with is what they will do best with. That said, I do feel slightly smug... but only because my entry to the BF franchise was way back with BF Vietnam- though 2142 was by far my favorite.
Unfortunately, the more recent entries have not been my cup of tea. BF3 ended up feeling ultra-grindy, and I got bored with BF4 just before the September patch went live. I haven't played since then, and I think I'll probably end up passing on it until Final Stand releases.
Imp Smash wrote:But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss.
I'll admit that I'm still skeptical about this. Maybe it's just because I've never managed to actually get that "instaswitch" strafe to actually work... but that's probably down to the fact that I'm an average-at-best player*. My gut feeling is that we, the community, either need to test it ourselves or jam a few fingers in CCP's eye(s) to get them to do it.
Which also fully explains why I can't figure-8 strafe on a keyboard... but hey, figure-8 is overrated when faced with anywhere from 4-6 meters of explosive hate radius. MD>mad strafing skills. Or at least, that's what I'll tell myself to feel less bad.
Imp Smash wrote:Finally let me apologize for not being more specific. When i was referring to vehicles I should have specified Tanks. mKb is better for tanks. DS is better for LaVs and Dropships.
Ah, I see. I don't think I necessarily agree, but I can certainly understand the perspective. Maybe we just need to get some testing done.
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