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Haerr Clone Manque 1686	Posted - 2014.10.26 10:04:00 - [31] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. More AA? That unfugging better be nothing less than flawless perfection. Haerr's huge list of wish for 1.9 - 1.10: Fix mouse support.
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 960	Posted - 2014.10.26 10:28:00 - [32] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: First rule of competitive gaming: Manipulate public and developer opinion and convince them all that a minor advantage is in fact an insurmountable one. Use this to enforce crippling limits or the removal of competing playstyles in order to insure your playstyle will be the undisputed dominant one, allowing you to minimize your competition by marginalizing and minimizing the impact of said playstyles, thus removing entire groups from competitive play. See: almost every nerf demanded by "top players" aimed at minimizing the efficacy of enemy doctrines in order to insure a clear advantage in their chosen game modes. First rule of a whiny forumbased fps community, not of competitive gaming as a whole Also there is a pretty big thing in the way of m/kb being fully viable, which is the unreal engine itself By default on most games "OneFrameThreadLag=TRUE" will be the case 99% of the time, what it does is simple: it delays all input recieved by the game by a single frame and then processes it on the next frame It improves performance at the cost of adding a core delay of inputs, due to mouse being such an accurate input method compared to ds3, it is the one that is affected the most You can tweak the mouse all you want, if this flag is still set to true then myself and alot of people are still going to be using the ds3 Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 960	Posted - 2014.10.26 10:38:00 - [33] - Quote DTOracle wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Only to a point. The KB/m doesn't make you an aiming ninja magically by dint of potential. And aim assist makes up the difference. God I hate running aim assist when I use controllers. It badly jacks my aim up for some reason. The AA in this game feels nonexistent outside of very close quarters. And then again does not affect certain weapons. Mouse has indisputably faster turn speed than ds3 iirc. The time it takes a maxed out mouse to complete a 180 when being attacked from behind compared to a ds3 with max setting doing the same is verifiably biased towards mice, no? (i feel really confident about this assertion for some reason but if someone has proof otherwise lemme know) So not only do you gain advantages for CQC in turn speed but your aiming are longer ranges is considerably more accurate with a mouse. Complete balance would necessitate skewing it in the ds3's favor IMO because aiming with 2 thumbsticks vs the precision you obtain using your entire wrist/arm is definitely harder. As is though it just sucks using anything but a KBM setup taking advantage of programs to remap. But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. Yes you can turn faster. but the lack of AA(specifically, bullet magnetism) make a massive difference. So much so, that I keep a DS3 handy if I decide to use a rifle fit. Somehow Dust has pixel perfect accuracy when using a KB/M. As in the pixels between their legs or right next to their head. If I were using a DS3 all bullets fired would register, just so long as i'm 'close enough'. AA is there to assist people who can't aim as well as others what you are describing later in the post is you missing constantly and assuming its something wrong with the mouse, when in reality you are just missing Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
DTOracle BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 354	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:07:00 - [34] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: what you are describing later in the post is you missing constantly and assuming its something to do with AA and the mouse not having it, when in reality you are just missing No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3.
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 898	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:21:00 - [35] - Quote Considering this is a PS3 exclusive they should have just made everyone use the DS3 from the beginning. If you want to use kb/m go join the lolpcmasterrace.
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 962	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:32:00 - [36] - Quote DTOracle wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: what you are describing later in the post is you missing constantly and assuming its something to do with AA and the mouse not having it, when in reality you are just missing No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3. If you can manage to find a stationary target, go test it for yourself. What you are referring to is bullet spread and cognitive bias is why you believe that its a problem with the game and not you, I too switch between both modes (AA turned off for DS3) and do not have this issue, the only issue i have with the kb/m is that its using a terrible emulation that feels like it has inherent mouse acceleration, plus the fact that all inputs are delayed by one frame Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 962	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:34:00 - [37] - Quote Dust User wrote: Considering this is a PS3 exclusive they should have just made everyone use the DS3 from the beginning. If you want to use kb/m go join the lolpcmasterrace. #greenlightlegion Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1383	Posted - 2014.10.26 15:14:00 - [38] - Quote Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd like to see the AA toned down or removed on DS3 to even the playing field although, Judging by the fact CCP have not acknowledged the issue is likely because they cannot work out a way to completely even out the advantages over which you use. I would not like to see KB/M given an advantage over other gamers again as it was bad before that and the vast majority of gamers on DUST new and old would use a DS3. It's not like handing a minority of gamers a distinct advantage over others has ever caused issue before Innapropriate Irrelevence...
DTOracle BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 354	Posted - 2014.10.26 17:57:00 - [39] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: DTOracle wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: what you are describing later in the post is you missing constantly and assuming its something to do with AA and the mouse not having it, when in reality you are just missing No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3. If you can manage to find a stationary target, go test it for yourself. What you are referring to is bullet spread and cognitive bias is why you believe that its a problem with the game and not you, I too switch between both modes (AA turned off for DS3) and do not have this issue, the only issue i have with the kb/m is that its using a terrible emulation that feels like it has inherent mouse acceleration, plus the fact that all inputs are delayed by one frame You clearly don't understand my point. If you turn on AA with the DS3, then maybe you might understand. Everything you have stated if true, but has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. AA does include slight bullet magnetism, which will cause shots to hit a target when the reticle is not exactly on target. I'm talking very close, but 'NOT' on target. If you play with a DS3 w/ AA off, then you have no idea what it is that i'm referring to. As for the mouse. Find out what the polling rate of your mouse is. If it is higher than 100-125hz then your mouse is over reporting to the PS3 & will feel sluggish as a result.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3992	Posted - 2014.10.26 18:13:00 - [40] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd like to see the AA toned down or removed on DS3 to even the playing field although, Judging by the fact CCP have not acknowledged the issue is likely because they cannot work out a way to completely even out the advantages over which you use. I would not like to see KB/M given an advantage over other gamers again as it was bad before that and the vast majority of gamers on DUST new and old would use a DS3. It's not like handing a minority of gamers a distinct advantage over others has ever caused issue before this statement is, and always has been, unproven anecdote. If it handed players a clear advantage why was it all of the leaderboard toppers were always DS3 players? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Quiet Conviction Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.10.26 19:44:00 - [41] - Quote Back in Chromosome I used to use KB/M with a Burst AR and back then it was significantly smoother than now. I use a pad for everything but fine precision work (Forging, sniping etc). I've even switched to my trackball and while it felt smoother than a mouse, it still feels clunky as hell. Split personality of an Open Beta Vet. Running "Light Assault" since Chromosome.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 62	Posted - 2014.10.26 20:53:00 - [42] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Also there is a pretty big thing in the way of m/kb being fully viable, which is the unreal engine itself By default on most games "OneFrameThreadLag=TRUE" will be the case 99% of the time, what it does is simple: it delays all input recieved by the game by a single frame and then processes it on the next frame I believe the general consensus is that almost all UE3 games are set in that way, and that it actually isn't noticeable if whatever platform you pick can drive the framerate high, and then keep it there. DUST seems to have some optimization issues that prevent the game from doing so. DTOracle wrote: No, I use a DS3 when using Aim assisted weapons for this very reason. I'm not talking about reticle magnetism, this is perfectly reasonable. I'm referring to shots clearly not on target, & still registering(when using a DS3). This is bullet magnetism & it does not happen when use a mouse. I switch between the 2 quite regularly & shots just one pixel next to the enemies head will not register with a mouse, but will give you a headshot with a DS3. If you can manage to find a stationary target, go test it for yourself. This bullet magnetism that you speak of... A guy named Ghazbaran did a video about it. Here's an earlier one as well, that's a little longer and more in depth. Dust User wrote: Considering this is a PS3 exclusive they should have just made everyone use the DS3 from the beginning. If you want to use kb/m go join the lolpcmasterrace. Please don't say stupid things, because it won't take long for me to call you out as being stupid. TheD1CK wrote: Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd have addressed this... for somewhere around the thousandth time, but.... Breakin Stuff wrote: this statement is, and always has been, unproven anecdote. If it handed players a clear advantage why was it all of the leaderboard toppers were always DS3 players? Breakin has already covered it. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4283	Posted - 2014.10.26 23:03:00 - [43] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd like to see the AA toned down or removed on DS3 to even the playing field Removing the limited AA present would only deepen the already large chasm created by the skill in to power out ratio present in dust. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4283	Posted - 2014.10.26 23:09:00 - [44] - Quote Ghazbaran's first video seems pointless as he used a weapon that has dispersion which would possibly account for some damage being applies despite the reticule not being red. Furthermore I'd be asking if the hitbox is larger than the character models (meaning it's perfectly possible to hit while your reticule not being red. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:07:00 - [45] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Only to a point. The KB/m doesn't make you an aiming ninja magically by dint of potential. And aim assist makes up the difference. God I hate running aim assist when I use controllers. It badly jacks my aim up for some reason. The AA in this game feels nonexistent outside of very close quarters. And then again does not affect certain weapons. Mouse has indisputably faster turn speed than ds3 iirc. The time it takes a maxed out mouse to complete a 180 when being attacked from behind compared to a ds3 with max setting doing the same is verifiably biased towards mice, no? (i feel really confident about this assertion for some reason but if someone has proof otherwise lemme know) So not only do you gain advantages for CQC in turn speed but your aiming are longer ranges is considerably more accurate with a mouse. Complete balance would necessitate skewing it in the ds3's favor IMO because aiming with 2 thumbsticks vs the precision you obtain using your entire wrist/arm is definitely harder. As is though it just sucks using anything but a KBM setup taking advantage of programs to remap. But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. This is merely an assumption. One that is incorrect. As you stated, a "fully maxed out" controller will move faster than a controller when getting shot from behind. Then you say you also get improved aiming. You don't. If the mouse is set super high you lose fine precision aiming. It's one or the other -- not both. Medically speaking -- the muscles in the thumb are, when trained, far more accurate than your arm wrist. As far as game play is concerned -- this is mulitplied by not having to deal with surface traction and gravity issues of the limb. The BEST FPS players in the world have always used a trackball for a reason. The simple fact of the matter is that mice don't change tensile values like controllers do with wear. This is, itself, exagerated by the fact that the ps3 controller has traditionally had somewhat overly soft sticks. 3rd party controllers with firm sticks are far more accurate. Assuming someone doesn't cheat using an autofire button (I'm looking at you former ScR cheaters) it is entirely a matter of getting more precise equipment for controller users to compete on par with mouse/keyboard users. A poster above said that mouse users are more accurate. That if someone could use both that they would always do better with the m/Kb. This is catagorically false. I am a former professional FPS players from the late 90's early 2ks. I payed for college, my house, and my car with prize money back when we could actually earn enough to do so. I am very good with the m/Kb. All that being said -- I stopped PC gaming close to 10 years ago and started console gaming due to having a life. I can catagorically deny that the m/KB is better. I score better in this game with a controller. A decade of controller use has trained my thumb quite well. I am more accurate with the controller. The controller is not better than the mouse -- it is merely a different physical skillset. Hence, despite having a mouse and keyboard, I use the controller. An issue may exist with people using programmable mice and keyboards to gain an advantage. Of course it exists. I cannot comment on that. Of course, an issue exists with people using programmable 3rd party controllers. Of course it exists. I cannot comment on that either. Saying that one group of players have an advantage in hardware is foolish -- both groups are capable and, in fact, DO buy programmable hardware and run macros/scripts. Both controller players like myself and m/Kb players like some of my buddies. That is an entirely seperate issue. All of that being said: The KBM confers a strafing advantage that shouldn't exist. Inertia should be applied to suits. The instant strafe back and forth with suits (especially pronounced on certain high speed suits) allows KB to slip through bullets that they shouldn't. Inertia would auto balance suits -- the faster the suit the longer the strafe time but larger the gap created. The m/Kb is also better than the ds3 for movement when driving vehicles as many people have stated. They are significantly worse when aiming in turrets. That is not a controller/mKb issue -- that is a CCP needing to adjust the control schemes issue. Programmable m/Kbs and programmable controllers are the only ones that get around this at this time. The controller is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the m/kb when flying dropships. It's a full on advantage. This also needs to be corrected via control scheme, I cannot comment on Aim Assist. As stated I'm FPS infancy era. Never had it so never used it and I turn it off if it all possible.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 857	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:20:00 - [46] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: PS...all the best tanks know that using both was the way to go. Attorney General would use KBM for the acceleration and ds3 for fine aiming and moving over certain terrain where the fluidity of the ds3 was needed to scale certain mountains and the like. Yurp just drop ur left hand off ur ds3 to yr Wsad keys and wallah nitrous I went so far as to learn how to use my controller for firing tank turret one handed so I don't have to switch Yeah, that must have taken a lot of learning? Don't you just hold the controller in your right hand, move the right joystick and press R1? How many months did it take you to learn that?
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 857	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:22:00 - [47] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Before nerfs to KB/M it was clearly a strong advantage vs DS3 gamers And now the coin has flipped in favor of the DS3 so it's not good for either side. I'd like to see the AA toned down or removed on DS3 to even the playing field Removing the limited AA present would only deepen the already large chasm created by the skill in to power out ratio present in dust. So many people scared of having their precious AA removed...
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1159	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:25:00 - [48] - Quote KB/M strafe + Cal Scout = win But seriously though if your good at KB/M you can stomp. Problemsare learning and getting comfortable with wasd and mouse Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Michael Arck 5900	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:39:00 - [49] - Quote I enjoyed reading your opinions Breakin Stuff. Completely agree with your thoughts. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
DTOracle BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 354	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:49:00 - [50] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ghazbaran's first video seems pointless as he used a weapon that has dispersion which would possibly account for some damage being applies despite the reticule not being red. Furthermore I'd be asking if the hitbox is larger than the character models (meaning it's perfectly possible to hit while your reticule not being red. The video's may also be quite dated (the 2nd is nearly a year old), perhaps it might be better to have more recent video's that are crowdsourced for better beedback...or simply ask the devs for info (I'll get on that). If you do the same test with a mouse, you will notice pixel perfect accuracy. Regardless of dispersion, if your reticle is not red your shots will not hit when using a mouse. Victor Moody Stahl wrote: This bullet magnetism that you speak of... A guy named Ghazbaran did a video about it. Here's an earlier one as well, that's a little longer and more in depth. Thanks for the link

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2014.10.27 01:37:00 - [51] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: As you stated, a "fully maxed out" controller will move faster than a controller when getting shot from behind. Then you say you also get improved aiming. You don't. If the mouse is set super high you lose fine precision aiming. It's one or the other -- not both. I just wanted to chip in on this, and comment that it is indeed correct. When I changed my mouse's poll rate down to 125 Hz to get as close to the PS3 USB poll rate of 100 Hz, I found that my 2000 dpi, 75 hip/52 ADS sensitivity was waaay too twitchy, to the point that I could probably have spun 360 degrees in under a second, but I wouldn't have been able to hit anything, even with a MD. Of course, doing so did break the in-game sensitivity in that it's no longer effecting how sensitive my mouse is, but since it's having no effect and I've already got my sense where I want it I don't actually care that much. [quote=Imp Smash]Medically speaking -- the muscles in the thumb are, when trained, far more accurate than your arm wrist. As far as game play is concerned -- this is mulitplied by not having to deal with surface traction and gravity issues of the limb. The BEST FPS players in the world have always used a trackball for a reason. Quote: Huh, did not know that. That's actually very interesting. [quote=Imp Smash]A poster above said that mouse users are more accurate. That if someone could use both that they would always do better with the m/Kb. This is catagorically false. I am a former professional FPS players from the late 90's early 2ks. I payed for college, my house, and my car with prize money back when we could actually earn enough to do so. I am very good with the m/Kb. All that being said -- I stopped PC gaming close to 10 years ago and started console gaming due to having a life.[quote] I can catagorically deny that the m/KB is better. I score better in this game with a controller. A decade of controller use has trained my thumb quite well. I am more accurate with the controller. The controller is not better than the mouse -- it is merely a different physical skillset. Hence, despite having a mouse and keyboard, I use the controller. It is a matter of preference and now I prefer the controller. Playing devil's advocate here, the argument could be made that you're simply very long out of practice with a KB/M setup compared to a controller setup. That being said, it's my opinion that what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works. And apparently quote limits will make this a two-parter. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2014.10.27 01:45:00 - [52] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: ---On VERIFIABLE advantages to control schemes All of that being said: The KBM confers a strafing advantage that shouldn't exist. Better Inertia should be applied to suits. The instant strafe back and forth with suits (especially pronounced on certain high speed suits) allows KB to slip through bullets that they shouldn't. Inertia would auto balance suits -- the faster the suit the longer the strafe time but larger the gap created creating different strafe patterns with faster suits being more flexible. As someone who uses a keyboard, I can pretty confidently say that it's actually not a KB-related issue that causes what you're describing. I would argue, rather, that's it's the lack of inertia (which you did mention), and that it's also likely that what you're facing is an exceptionally good circle or figure-8 strafer- a strafing maneuver that is, from a practical standpoint, impossible to perform on a keyboard when under fire. The main reason I bring this up is that it's the sort of thing where- particularly in the case of a figure-8 strafe- it looks a lot like a simple left/right strafe, but it's actually quite different; I myself have some difficulty distinguishing between the two, but I can say quite confidently that the inertia-less strafe mechanics are broken. There's been more than a few times that a point-blank fight that, IMO, I should have had at least a fighting chance has ended with my at the spawn screen because I simply could not track my opponent- even with a mouse. Imp Smash wrote: The m/Kb is also better than the ds3 for movement when driving vehicles as many people have stated. They are significantly worse when aiming in turrets. That is not a controller/mKb issue -- that is a CCP needing to adjust the control schemes issue. Programmable m/Kbs and programmable controllers are the only ones that get around this at this time. As far as vehicle movement being a case of KB/M>DS3... I respectfully disagree. I would argue that in the case of LAVs, changing the DS3 input scheme for the LAV in the options makes it the equal of the KB; the potential advantage of being able to accelerate while turning, at least in my experience, is offset by the fact that it's often difficult to make a tight, slow turn. Turret aiming is terrible with a mouse, and if it is indeed also terrible with a DS3 (I don't actually know, I only pull out the DS3 when I try to fly derpships), then you're right, that's just a general turret aiming issue. Imp Smash wrote: The controller is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the m/kb when flying dropships. It's a full on advantage. This also needs to be corrected via control scheme, I somewhat disagree; the KB/M scheme for derpships is so terrible that's it's really just unusable. It's less that it's bad and DS3 is better, so much so that it's flat out broken and the DS3-derpship scheme isn't. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 179	Posted - 2014.10.27 01:55:00 - [53] - Quote There is no debate just like there is no debate which is faster between clicking and binding if you think other wise it is because you fail get good. PC gamer for too long, I use ds3 only because dust is a console game and I don't have a desk in my living room; I did bring kb and mouse down for a few days to give it a go though it is way more responsive and accurate than ds3. What we have are players and tryhards the players are here to kill stuff in a competitive atmosphere and the tryhards do there best to exploit broken game mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlsSecuzE8 The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
The Master Race Immortal Guides 181	Posted - 2014.10.27 01:55:00 - [54] - Quote There is no debate just like there is no debate which is faster between clicking and binding if you think other wise it is because you fail get good. PC gamer for too long, I use ds3 only because dust is a console game and I don't have a desk in my living room; I did bring kb and mouse down for a few days to give it a go though it is way more responsive and accurate than ds3. What we have are players and tryhards the players are here to kill stuff in a competitive atmosphere and the tryhards do there best to exploit broken game mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlsSecuzE8 The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:46:00 - [55] - Quote Victor, if I may respond to your well written post. As far as mKb goes -- I have mostly quit PC gaming -- but there IS 1 series I still play-- BF. Ever since BF2 I have been a fan. So that is the one game (currently BF4 and its constant crashing) I still play and I use mKb. And I do very well. As I stated -- competitive play was once my job. I can use mKb pretty good. I just do better with a DS3 in Dust. Which is why I 1000% agree -- as you said, "what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works." But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss. Finally let me apologize for not being more specific. When i was referring to vehicles I should have specified Tanks. mKb is better for tanks. DS is better for LaVs and Dropships. Other than that you get 2 likes from me. @Blueprint Blueprint For Murder wrote: There is no debate just like there is no debate which is faster between clicking and binding if you think other wise it is because you fail get good. PC gamer for too long, I use ds3 only because dust is a console game and I don't have a desk in my living room; I did bring kb and mouse down for a few days to give it a go though it is way more responsive and accurate than ds3. What we have are players and tryhards the players are here to kill stuff in a competitive atmosphere and the tryhards do there best to exploit broken game mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlsSecuzE8 As per me and Victor's earlier conversation -- do you not think that it is possible that you simply do better with mKb because you are used to it?
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4284	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:47:00 - [56] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: ----On that statement This is merely an assumption. One that is incorrect. As you stated, a "fully maxed out" controller will move faster than a controller when getting shot from behind. Then you say you also get improved aiming. You don't. If the mouse is set super high you lose fine precision aiming. It's one or the other -- not both. Medically speaking -- the muscles in the thumb are, when trained, far more accurate than your arm wrist. As far as game play is concerned -- this is mulitplied by not having to deal with surface traction and gravity issues of the limb. The BEST FPS players in the world have always used a trackball for a reason. The simple fact of the matter is that mice don't change tensile values like controllers do with wear. This is, itself, exagerated by the fact that the ps3 controller has traditionally had somewhat overly soft sticks. 3rd party controllers with firm sticks are far more accurate. Assuming someone doesn't cheat using an autofire button (I'm looking at you former ScR cheaters) it is entirely a matter of getting more precise equipment and practicing (ie 'getting gud') for controller users to compete on par with mouse/keyboard users. This is grossly misinformed. And your credentials are no more accepted than 8213 posting he was #1 Doom #1 MLG Halo #1 [insert FPS title here] won x # of tourneys it's utter bullshit bro. here's 2 article's you can contest if you like. http://www.totalxbox.com/21262/xbox-vs-pc-scrapped-because-of-imbalance/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2011/1/24 One makes reference to the infamous microsoft situation that these debates always end up referring to where they found that console players got destroyed by PC players. The 2nd is an interview with a developer of Monday Night Combat about the process of how they attempted to bridge the gap between controllers and KBM users. A few quotes: Quote: Now, all these systems sound like cheating but they all revolve around the same concept; make the time to aim as small as possible. None of these systems are needed on the PC because that time can get to be nearly zero by sheer player skill. Quote: We were in the process of tweaking how the Gunner and Tank jump jets work. Why? Because with a mouse and keyboard, you can now jump and aim at the same time. With the console controller thereGÇÖs an additional time penalty to be paid to move your thumb off the jump button and back onto the right thumb stick in order to aim while jumping. Pay special attention to the parts discussing: View acceleration View friction View adhesion Aim attraction B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4284	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:49:00 - [57] - Quote It's just plain silly when people post up "Hey don't worry bro, I am ______________________" That'd be like me saying: "Hey bro, don't talk to me about dust I have 70+kills, a higher k/d than you, and over 3500 hours spent playing the game." B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 69	Posted - 2014.10.27 04:17:00 - [58] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Victor, if I may respond to your well written post. As far as mKb goes -- I have mostly quit PC gaming -- but there IS 1 series I still play-- BF. Ever since BF2 I have been a fan. So that is the one game (currently BF4 and its constant crashing) I still play and I use mKb. And I do very well. As I stated -- competitive play was once my job. I can use mKb pretty good. I just do better with a DS3 in Dust. Which is why I 1000% agree -- as you said, "what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works." Oh, I see. Ultimately though, it is a wash- as we agree that whatever a person is most comfortable with is what they will do best with. That said, I do feel slightly smug... but only because my entry to the BF franchise was way back with BF Vietnam- though 2142 was by far my favorite. Unfortunately, the more recent entries have not been my cup of tea. BF3 ended up feeling ultra-grindy, and I got bored with BF4 just before the September patch went live. I haven't played since then, and I think I'll probably end up passing on it until Final Stand releases. Imp Smash wrote: But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss. I'll admit that I'm still skeptical about this. Maybe it's just because I've never managed to actually get that "instaswitch" strafe to actually work... but that's probably down to the fact that I'm an average-at-best player. My gut feeling is that we, the community, either need to test it ourselves or jam a few fingers in CCP's eye(s) to get them to do it. Which also fully explains why I can't figure-8 strafe on a keyboard... but hey, figure-8 is overrated when faced with anywhere from 4-6 meters of explosive hate radius. MD>mad strafing skills. Or at least, that's what I'll tell myself to feel less bad. Imp Smash wrote:* Finally let me apologize for not being more specific. When i was referring to vehicles I should have specified Tanks. mKb is better for tanks. DS is better for LaVs and Dropships. Ah, I see. I don't think I necessarily agree, but I can certainly understand the perspective. Maybe we just need to get some testing done. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 274	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:58:00 - [59] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Imp Smash wrote: But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss. I'll admit that I'm still skeptical about this. Maybe it's just because I've never managed to actually get that "instaswitch" strafe to actually work... but that's probably down to the fact that I'm an average-at-best player. My gut feeling is that we, the community, either need to test it ourselves or jam a few fingers in CCP's eye(s) to get them to do it. Which also fully explains why I can't figure-8 strafe on a keyboard... but hey, figure-8 is overrated when faced with anywhere from 4-6 meters of explosive hate radius. MD>mad strafing skills. Or at least, that's what I'll tell myself to feel less bad. . I should be clear here too. It's redundant on the keyboard. I am good -- but by no means elite. My skills are no where near where they used to be during InstaGib Rail Quake days. And I knew no one that ran a dodge pattern like that. Here as well I never do. 'Capable of' is not the same as 'good at' or even 'viable'. It's just doable. And imo redundant. Zatara Rought wrote:* This is grossly misinformed. And your credentials are no more accepted than 8213 posting he was #1 Doom #1 MLG Halo #1 [insert FPS title here] won x # of tourneys it's utter bullshit bro. Well I am not surprised at how you took that although I am surprised at how you ran with it. Let me be clear. You should not, nor do I want you to, take my word based on what I may or may not have done 15 years ago. These were not listed as credentials nor do I expect anyone to take me at my word. As it is the internet anyone can say anything. I merely posted it so that you could imagine the perspective I am coming from. Whether you believe it or not has no basis on what you should be considering -- the rationale of my statements. Had I posted "I have never played video games before YESTERDAY" instead you should still consider the rationale as opposed to my background whether said background is real or imagined. If you are going to claim it is 'grossly misinformed' you may wish to actually refute my points individually as opposed to a blanket statement as a group. At least -- if you don't want to look biased. Zatara Rought wrote: here's 2 article's you can contest if you like. http://www.totalxbox.com/21262/xbox-vs-pc-scrapped-because-of-imbalance/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2011/1/24 One makes reference to the infamous microsoft situation that these debates always end up referring to where they found that console players got destroyed by PC players. The 2nd is an interview with a developer of Monday Night Combat about the process of how they attempted to bridge the gap between controllers and KBM users. A few quotes: Pay special attention to the parts discussing: View acceleration View friction View adhesion Aim attraction I don't need to refute these articles. They do not specifically refute anything I said. They do illustrate how control input has evolved. A stick CAN be as accurate as a mouse -- it's just a higher learning curve. But if you insist-- things not covered include: how well the bridge attempts worked out (in the Penny arcade article.) The actual control and input schemes in Shadowrun. It said was that the console players couldn't keep up --> Some but not quite enough exact discussion and specifics about the input schemes occurred. The fact that longtime console players have, literally, a decade plus of a practice headstart over controller users (how COULD anyone overlook that -- surely it would make sense that it's a big deal >.>... ) However, you do make a point that I overlooked. Specifically the increase in the number of input options on the keyboard plus generally mapping allowing mKb to lose less time when making inputs. That is something I failed to mention and it is an entirely valid concern. However that is also a mapping issue. When a better controller or customizable inputs for DS3 (some 3rd party controllers can do this I believe) you can do everything you need to do without taking your thumb off of either stick. Conversely -- mKb players can't be as fast/accurate with grenades as DS3 players due to grenade being on the X button. Borderlands did quite well in this respect with fully customizable input options. (I think it was borderlands, my memory is hazy.) And I always recommend x control scheme over Y control scheme due to not having to take your thumb off of the right stick to perform an action and therefore be able to aim simultaneously. So yes -- due to the mapping there are a few other areas I neglected to mention. However this does not refute my points either as input mapping can potentially solve these issues.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 274	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:59:00 - [60] - Quote So let me try to summarize my point and opinion. I think (and I may be wrong) that the debate between mKb and DS3 can really only exist in the areas where they are fundamentally different. They fundamentally differ in how they input data with the KB having instant on off input with no neutral ground required plus a variety of input options and the mouse which is arguably more accurate or less accurate than a stick. Oh and the limited number of input options on the pad available to fingers besides the thumbs which are otherwise occupied. Again, if you want to correct me feel free. It's all my 2 isk. However, please discuss each point as opposed to a blanket statement of 'this is all misinformed.' With respect, An ornery gamer.



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