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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
3572
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Posted - 2014.10.05 23:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:Depends.. if your talking ORE.. then diamond as an ORE can break all other rock :P Let's not get technical here Apoth. We will lose valad  I tried to use simple terms, but it gave him an aneurysm.
Let's have a meaningful conversation about the scout and assault role. Scouts need a light weapon, they need ewar, and cloaks. Those things make them fit neatly into their role as opportunistic ambush/recon. What they don't need is the ability to fit 700+ eHP. As a scout, tell me what would be a good way to prevent this kind of behavior.
As an assault, I don't want better ewar, cloaking bonuses, or insane walk/sprint speeds. I don't want to infringe on the scout role. Can we change the assault dropsuits to make them better at their role?
My advice to you, playa...
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
953
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Posted - 2014.10.05 23:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
valad II wrote:Apothecary Za'ki wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:valad II wrote:Counter to scout with 700+hp is not another scout with 700+hp. A counter would be dampening and precision, with speed. Thats why it is called a counter. The counter to paper is not paper, the counter to rock isn't rock, the counter to scissors isn't more ******* scissors. Your argument is invalid. depends.. if your talking ORE.. then diamond as an ORE can break all other rock :P Sharmin butthole paper or heavy duty construction paper that has complex armor plates? I like sharmin, it doesn't leave any dingle berries.
you mean compacted cardboard (thick paper) vs 2 ply toilet paper.. what will win? :P
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 2 Forum Pariah
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
953
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Posted - 2014.10.05 23:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Apothecary Za'ki wrote:Depends.. if your talking ORE.. then diamond as an ORE can break all other rock :P Let's not get technical here Apoth. We will lose valad I tried to use simple terms, but it gave him an aneurysm. Let's have a meaningful conversation about the scout and assault role. Scouts need a light weapon, they need ewar, and cloaks. Those things make them fit neatly into their role as opportunistic ambush/recon. What they don't need is the ability to fit 700+ eHP. As a scout, tell me what would be a good way to prevent this kind of behavior. As an assault, I don't want better ewar, cloaking bonuses, or insane walk/sprint speeds. I don't want to infringe on the scout role. Can we change the assault dropsuits to make them better at their role?
well id say scout needs -1 equipment and assault needs +1
edit.
only if amarr and caldari logi get +1 equipment at standard level to bring them to 3
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 2 Forum Pariah
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valad II
NoGameNoLife
223
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Posted - 2014.10.05 23:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:valad II wrote:Apothecary Za'ki wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:valad II wrote:Counter to scout with 700+hp is not another scout with 700+hp. A counter would be dampening and precision, with speed. Thats why it is called a counter. The counter to paper is not paper, the counter to rock isn't rock, the counter to scissors isn't more ******* scissors. Your argument is invalid. depends.. if your talking ORE.. then diamond as an ORE can break all other rock :P Sharmin butthole paper or heavy duty construction paper that has complex armor plates? I like sharmin, it doesn't leave any dingle berries. you mean compacted cardboard (thick paper) vs 2 ply toilet paper.. what will win? :P
Depends on if compacted sees the 2ply coming for him. 2 ply is squishy but dampened. I love an underdog. money is onthe 2ply butt paper. |
valad II
NoGameNoLife
223
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Posted - 2014.10.05 23:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:Apothecary Za'ki wrote:Depends.. if your talking ORE.. then diamond as an ORE can break all other rock :P Let's not get technical here Apoth. We will lose valad I tried to use simple terms, but it gave him an aneurysm. Let's have a meaningful conversation about the scout and assault role. Scouts need a light weapon, they need ewar, and cloaks. Those things make them fit neatly into their role as opportunistic ambush/recon. What they don't need is the ability to fit 700+ eHP. As a scout, tell me what would be a good way to prevent this kind of behavior. As an assault, I don't want better ewar, cloaking bonuses, or insane walk/sprint speeds. I don't want to infringe on the scout role. Can we change the assault dropsuits to make them better at their role? well id say scout needs -1 equipment and assault needs +1 edit. only if amarr and caldari logi get +1 equipment at standard level to bring them to 3
I could totally agree with getting rid of the scouts 2nd equip slot. Sacrifice. |
Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
953
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Posted - 2014.10.05 23:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
valad II wrote:
you mean compacted cardboard (thick paper) vs 2 ply toilet paper.. what will win? :P
Depends on if compacted sees the 2ply coming for him. 2 ply is squishy but dampened. I love an underdog. money is onthe 2ply butt paper. [/quote]
depending on the saturation of the 2ply it should be thrown against the cardboard and eventually could weaken the area and it would have a structural failure
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 2 Forum Pariah
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valad II
NoGameNoLife
223
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Posted - 2014.10.05 23:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:valad II wrote:
you mean compacted cardboard (thick paper) vs 2 ply toilet paper.. what will win? :P
Depends on if compacted sees the 2ply coming for him. 2 ply is squishy but dampened. I love an underdog. money is onthe 2ply butt paper.
depending on the saturation of the 2ply it should be thrown against the cardboard and eventually could weaken the area and it would have a structural failure[/quote]
LOL now I just gotta say what? I am not catching the comparisons. Fun while it lasted. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
3572
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Posted - 2014.10.05 23:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
Apothecary wrote:well id say scout needs -1 equipment and assault needs +1
edit.
only if amarr and caldari logi get +1 equipment at standard level to bring them to 3 That prevents scouts from being mini logis. How does that keep them from fitting massive tanks? Not saying it is a bad change, just playing devil's advocate.
My advice to you, playa...
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Yeeeuuuupppp
Vengeance Unbound
632
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Everyone has to sacrifice something for their advantages, Scouts should be one of them.
Speed.
"Removed for hurting my feelings" - CCP
PSN: GMANCASH
Rage Proficiency V
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Yeeeuuuupppp
Vengeance Unbound
632
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:Why should it, the Rail rifle doesn't exchange anything for being long range, the bolt pistol exchanges nothing for being long range and insanely high damaging, and the scout suit is just insane at everything, at the same time.
Bolt pIstol has a slow rof, but high damage
"Removed for hurting my feelings" - CCP
PSN: GMANCASH
Rage Proficiency V
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
3572
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
Yeeeuuuupppp wrote:Speed. Shield tanks do not sacrifice speed for their tank. As for armor tanking, just stick to ferroscale and reactives. Dual tanking is still very much a possibility
My advice to you, playa...
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Mex-0
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
72
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
I pray that CCP does not take the nerf bat to the scouts. It's my favorite class. I can run 500 eHP max on my proto caldari scout. I assume you are talking about the gallente scout?
Dedicated Scout and Nova Knifer.
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Sergeant Sazu
New Age Empire.
General Tso's Alliance
142
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:03:00 -
[43] - Quote
Switch the Scout's regen stats with the Assault's, and watch as only the real Scouts remain.
"Breach weapon specialist..."
-Puts two pairs of sunglasses on Assault gk.0-
"...before it was cool."
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valad II
NoGameNoLife
223
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:04:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Apothecary wrote:well id say scout needs -1 equipment and assault needs +1
edit.
only if amarr and caldari logi get +1 equipment at standard level to bring them to 3 That prevents scouts from being mini logis. How does that keep them from fitting massive tanks? Not saying it is a bad change, just playing devil's advocate.
Why shouldnt they be able to tank if they wish too. Then they are slow and unable to run precision or damps. They are sacrificing that for tanking. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
3572
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
valad II wrote:Why shouldnt they be able to tank if they wish too. Then they are slow and unable to run precision or damps. They are sacrificing that for tanking. Even without damps a Gallente/Caldari scout can fly well under logistic and assaults dropsuits scan precision. Which gives the scout tank AND invisibility to passive scans.
My advice to you, playa...
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Yeeeuuuupppp
Vengeance Unbound
633
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Yeeeuuuupppp wrote:Speed. Shield tanks do not sacrifice speed for their tank. As for armor tanking, just stick to ferroscale and reactives. Dual tanking is still very much a possibility
The op said 700+ hp. Most if not everyone pointed at thE gal scout. Gal scouts max armor is 750, which is only achieved from 4 complex armor plates. Stacking ferro's, iirc, gets you to just over 600 armor, and reactives just under 600. None of those fits would be viable except maybe the ferro, speed wise.
Now, for shield suits, the max you could have is 450 shields which doesn't seem too much (imo). That of course would be the scout,ck.o with 4 complex shields. This is almost a very good fit if it didn't lack ewar . The part where it really gets stupid is when you put 2 enhanced plates, which bumps you up to about 450/330. (Those numbers are very very close to my min assault). I'm pretty sure that if you don'T use a cloak, you'd be able to toss a complex plate or two. Yes, you could put on ferro and blah blah, but these "scouts" want to be hp effectivE more than anything .
To fix these absurd numbers I'd suggest nerfing pg/cpu capabilities of the scout, and maybe have hp mods give like half of what they'd normally give (just spit balling)
"Removed for hurting my feelings" - CCP
PSN: GMANCASH
Rage Proficiency V
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Atiim
12762
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:25:00 -
[47] - Quote
Yeeeuuuupppp wrote:Atiim wrote:Everyone has to sacrifice something for their advantages, Scouts should be one of them. Speed.
I've made scout builds with 600+ eHP that can still sprint at 8m/s.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
245
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:27:00 -
[48] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:An assault will beat a tanked scout of equal skill every single time. Its a different story if the scout uses ewar and a shotgun 
That is actually not true. It is the inverse. A tanked scout will beat an assault of equal skill every time and you know it (or are you a scout....)
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Yeeeuuuupppp
Vengeance Unbound
635
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Yeeeuuuupppp wrote:Atiim wrote:Everyone has to sacrifice something for their advantages, Scouts should be one of them. Speed. I've made scout builds with 600+ eHP that can still sprint at 8m/s.
Dafuq
"Removed for hurting my feelings" - CCP
PSN: GMANCASH
Rage Proficiency V
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
3572
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:37:00 -
[50] - Quote
Atiim wrote:I've made scout builds with 600+ eHP that can still sprint at 8m/s. Please be overexaggerating. Link the fitting?
My advice to you, playa...
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Atiim
12762
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Atiim wrote:I've made scout builds with 600+ eHP that can still sprint at 8m/s. Please be overexaggerating. Link the fitting?
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/837/8224
Who needs Shield Regulators and Rechargers when you have 50HP/s and a 3s delay?
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
3573
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Posted - 2014.10.06 00:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
...gotdayum.
Yeah, they should just retire the assault dropsuit until they figure out how to fix the scout
My advice to you, playa...
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Thurak1
Psygod9
1019
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Posted - 2014.10.06 01:08:00 -
[53] - Quote
Dam once i get home and can view that web page i need to spend some of my unused sp and make me a scout. |
Joel II X
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3749
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Posted - 2014.10.06 01:19:00 -
[54] - Quote
It's horrible, I know.
I still suggest removing an equipment and going back to the old CPU / PG of Olde.
Scout fittings were fine back then. We didn't need the buff. |
X7 lion
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
304
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Posted - 2014.10.06 02:03:00 -
[55] - Quote
Plates on scouts should slow scouts down more & raise the scan profile, that way us real scouts are not effect by a balance change that has nothing to do with us.
Do not contribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance.
being contradictory is not the same as being offensive.
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
954
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Posted - 2014.10.06 02:04:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Apothecary wrote:well id say scout needs -1 equipment and assault needs +1
edit.
only if amarr and caldari logi get +1 equipment at standard level to bring them to 3 That prevents scouts from being mini logis. How does that keep them from fitting massive tanks? Not saying it is a bad change, just playing devil's advocate.
its one small step.. maybe lower their slots and PG as ewar only takes cpu iirc.
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 2 Forum Pariah
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
954
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Posted - 2014.10.06 02:05:00 -
[57] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:It's horrible, I know.
I still suggest removing an equipment and going back to the old CPU / PG of Olde.
Scout fittings were fine back then. We didn't need the buff.
maybe "light" suits stay at 2 equip.. and scout goes down to 1.. as scout is the specialist for ewar/cloak..
thes changes mean people would make a shift to the slightly subpar (on cpu) suit if they wanted the 2 slots.
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 2 Forum Pariah
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
954
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Posted - 2014.10.06 02:07:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:...gotdayum. Yeah, they should just retire the assault dropsuit until they figure out how to fix the scout
think i need to change my underware.. i didnt think it was possable to Brick that hard on a caldari.. i thougth the main offenders were gal/amarr
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 2 Forum Pariah
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hfderrtgvcd
655
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Posted - 2014.10.06 02:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:An assault will beat a tanked scout of equal skill every single time. Its a different story if the scout uses ewar and a shotgun That is actually not true. It is the inverse. A scout of any variety will beat an assault of equal skill more often than not and you know it (or are you a scout....) And I am speaking solely head to head. Strafe /plus/ keyboard /plus/ speed /plus/ tiny hitbox /plus/ lag compensation making bullets that hit actually miss give scouts ridiculous ehp. They SHOULD win everytime if they sneak to the side or behind.
I have both proto assault and proto scout. The assault has over 1100 hp. No scout can come even close to that.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
3574
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Posted - 2014.10.06 02:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:maybe "light" suits stay at 2 equip.. and scout goes down to 1.. as scout is the specialist for ewar/cloak..
thes changes mean people would make a shift to the slightly subpar (on cpu) suit if they wanted the 2 slots. Light dropsuits do not get the cloaking module CPU/PG reduction. Doesn't make a lot of sense for them to have two equipment slots unless they need a cloak.
I feel like borrowing the modules "sizes" from Eve Online would be the best way to balance this nonsense. That way, a scout could fit a dual tank and have great eHP... for scout. In comparison to a medium dropsuit it will always be just a bit behind in the eHP department. And so it goes with mediums and heavies; heavies can fit "large" modules, which will grant more eHP than medium.
Either that, or have modules grant a percentage of the respective HP. That isn't really keeping with the spirit of New Eden though, as the only modules that grant percentages of things are rigs (IIRC).
My advice to you, playa...
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