Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships.

Let's state a few data points.

1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable.

2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly

3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor)

4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor)

3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind?

3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely.

4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf.

Let's get to some more discussions.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey.

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.

A) I am fine with a small transport capability. Is removing that down to lets say pilot plus 2 gunners viable and feasible?

D) I disagree, an ADS can cover way more ground, sure a LAV can too, but again, I don't like shoehorning, the ADS can do that fine even though its not an Apache job.

I like the splash damage increase instead of ROF, but we can increase dps by increasing damage instead of ROF on incubus, making them less spammy and more powerful. The spam makes it way easier to kill infantry than high powered and fewer shots. We can also introduce a slight dispersion to rails so less accurate against infantry.

What is the effective DPS to kill a Madrugar, that remains unanswered.

Do this if you want to kill the ADS.

I can tell you that this will remove ADS from competitive play (PC) and make it used only by fringe pilots with their friends in pubs. A gunner manned forward turret will never be as effective as a pilot manned turret because of the crazy amount of communication and coordination needed. Not to mention you're sacrificing 1/8th of the personnel on a team for something that can only be equally effective.

I have. They're only really effective because of the RoF stacking bug. Other than that they're just a faster, less tanky Grimsnes. When I do fight them I have more trouble against the pilot gunner than the side gunner because the pilot can track me easier and keep up with my evasive movements because he know immediately how to move the dropship to keep on me. This is much less efficient when the pilot has to keep the DS steady or aimed for a side gunner, much less a forward gunner.


But 2 individual dropsuits Gëá 2 coordinating in a DS. Things gets far more complicated and inefficient the more people that get involved (see governments for a good example). Imagine it like someone's aiming and shooting your gun while you move about on the ground, perhaps with perfect teamwork you can be as good as you would be normally, but you're still only just as good.

To achieve that kind of teamwork will also require a lot of practice between two people, meaning that not just any blueberry, or any corp member or friend for that matter, can jump into your ADS and be as efficient as those that have practiced together. Every person has their individual nuances, preferences, habits, etc. that are all part of how they work together with others and are really magnified with something as intricate as ADS gunning.

That's exactly the issue, the dropship itself should not be the deciding of what it is used for, but how it is fitted. Giving a balance weapons so that depending how they are fitted will give both ADS and future ADS for the other racial ones role specifics depending what they have equipped, just how it goes for those on the ground and other vehicles as well. As it stands the Incubus already can fit modules better. We are trying to make both dropships usable. Those dedicated pilots will have more to do, and those who wish to only dedicate themselves to one type of dropship will also benefit from this. This is what I hope everyone understands and not just go to keeping the dropships status quo.

You seem to be saying two different things: either that the ADS should be considered a role, like a Sentinel, Scout or Assault; or that each racial ADS should be considered a role.

The former, perfectly legitimate; the latter most definitely not.

The issue from reading your post is that you said the Incubus's role should be tankbuster while the Python should e infantry suppression: that's like saying a CalScout should be a sniper while a GalScout should be AV - both are and should be EWar platforms: both ADSs should be assault platforms (hence the name...)

Why don't you just add the turret variants which rattati seemed quite keen on, then both can do each others role, admittedly without the racial skill bonuses. Therefore it will be very similar to your logi example, as I can still equip and use a rep tool on my gal logi, but I won't be as efficient as the min logi. Same as I could still equip the av rail variant to my python but I won't get whatever the skill bonus is (rattati I suggest increasing ammo per mag so each burst/strafing run can last longer)