DUST Search - Slayer scouts...

gustavo acosta wrote:

Michael Arck wrote:

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

I wouldn't go that far... it's not a exploit to simply abuse what is obvious. Usually there is something more sinister and unintentional behind an exploit.

Scouts are simply on steroids because CCP gave them a bottle of steroids. It's an open and shut case of having too much power at their finger tips.

And before anyone goes into heavies again, yes, I do support the notion of the burst being reverted back to its previous stats.

A exploit is defined as taking what has been given and using it to your advantage. Though we humans associate the term exploit as something negative in tone, that does not mean it has no place in the statment that scouts being used as assaults are exploits.

Listen man, I hate assault scouts as much as the next guy, but you shouldn't be so quick to brush them off as just "exploits." Though you are right that assault scouts are the product of people knowing that a scout can do the same things an assault can with no drawback, however they are more a product of the game's amazing concept.

That concept being that you can run your suit and you character as you wish, no matter how strange or viable/not viable. This game was built on that concept, however that does not necessarily mean that a suit outside of their intended role will be viable or not. The viability of a suit to perform roles outside, and even inside, what is intended should be entirely based on the individual players' skill.

That is not the case with assault scouts. Scouts simply have to act/fit as assaults for viability outside their role, this is where the imbalance is found. No drawbacks=No problem assaulting. Scouts need to become on the same level as heavies, in terms of acting as an assault suit(i.e. if a heavy runs around with light weapons they are not much of a threat when it comes to relatively skilled players, unless said heavy is very skilled in acting as an assault).

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OZAROW Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1629	Posted - 2014.09.21 20:36:00 - [61] - Quote Its the cloaks effectiveness not the suit, quit whinning. Yes, you just got rocked by a guy with a BOLT PISTOL and a pair of knives! !
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 65	Posted - 2014.09.21 20:40:00 - [62] - Quote Actually Gavr1lo is right here, stacking should be put up on light ones. Logic says you want run, you should be light. But here is still issue with missconception of scouts role. "The human being was not chosen to be a god..the god himself should become a human being."
Cavani1EE7 FACTI0N WARFARE ARMY 261	Posted - 2014.09.21 20:45:00 - [63] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Cavani1EE7 wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Should be dismantled. There is no reason why scouts are being frontal assault players with their quick TTK CRs. I have killed them and they have killed me. But seeing scouts in this event play outside of their role infringes on a class designed to do such. Scouts should not be slayers. If we cant squeeze it in on delta, changes need to be made come echo. The opinion of a pub player doesn't matter at all. No no. Just as much as a member from FWA, little man. lol if only you knew That's the good part of posting in GD lolz
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 410	Posted - 2014.09.21 20:53:00 - [64] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Haven't seen a QQ thread in a while, but I agree that it is a problem. What would you propose to fix said problem? I'd remove the extra equipment and some CPU/PG. Nerf Scout overall CPU/PG, then give CPU/PG bonuses for EWAR modules. Fixed. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Omega Black Zero Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 95	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:04:00 - [65] - Quote The issues isn't as simple as cloaks, it's eWar coupled with the best movement abilities in the game. They can see you sooner and plan accordingly. Information is very important, and cloaks are only a gimmick at best, because it's not the cloaks that kills me, it's accurate detection and planning that kills me. I feel the scout has too much of both worlds and either needs to be divided into two roles or have eWar nerfed down or reduce the killing efficiency of running a scout (reduction in equipment slots would be a good start)
axis alpha Red Star. EoN. 341	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:09:00 - [66] - Quote Jarod Garamonde Jr wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Should be dismantled. There is no reason why scouts are being frontal assault players with their quick TTK CRs. I have killed them and they have killed me. But seeing scouts in this event play outside of their role infringes on a class designed to do such. Scouts should not be slayers. If we cant squeeze it in on delta, changes need to be made come echo. Translation: "People are using emergent gameplay to make shock-troops out of scout suit users, and I am angry about it because I wasn't creative enough to think of it, first, so please nerf it into oblivion, even though I will squall like a little brat about everything and claim to hate this game and everyone who plays it!" Anyone agree with my interpretation of his post? Translation Translation : "Please stop qqing over my op scout it's the only crutch that makes me decent. Please everyone agree with me so my crutch is not nerfed into the ground" We won't follow the deceiver. You let this be your warning. The path of the wretched is burning..
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 66	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:13:00 - [67] - Quote axis alpha wrote: Jarod Garamonde Jr wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Should be dismantled. There is no reason why scouts are being frontal assault players with their quick TTK CRs. I have killed them and they have killed me. But seeing scouts in this event play outside of their role infringes on a class designed to do such. Scouts should not be slayers. If we cant squeeze it in on delta, changes need to be made come echo. Translation: "People are using emergent gameplay to make shock-troops out of scout suit users, and I am angry about it because I wasn't creative enough to think of it, first, so please nerf it into oblivion, even though I will squall like a little brat about everything and claim to hate this game and everyone who plays it!" Anyone agree with my interpretation of his post? Translation Translation : "Please stop qqing over my op scout it's the only crutch that makes me decent. Please everyone agree with me so my crutch is not nerfed into the ground" Scout should be recon class, not a stalkerish speedy version of assault suit. Problem is with its role, basicaly scout is not fully formed like scout. "The human being was not chosen to be a god..the god himself should become a human being."
gustavo acosta Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 277	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:18:00 - [68] - Quote The scout role is that of stealth and intel(not passive intel, but intel). I didn't I'd have to explain that, but this thread has devolved greatly since the beginning and frankly it's making me sick. Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault Eternal Can I haz ur isk?
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 66	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:24:00 - [69] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: The scout role is that of stealth and intel(not passive intel, but intel). I didn't I'd have to explain that, but this thread has devolved greatly since the beginning and frankly it's making me sick. But what we have here now is basicaly not too intelish, but actually more versatile class than "should be versatile" assault. What is defo wrong. What i remember from my training was recon should be unseen support to attack group and what we have right now is quite oposite. I understand there is no proper role for scouts right now and thats reason why CCP should rework its role and possibilities. Scouts are not scouts basicaly "The human being was not chosen to be a god..the god himself should become a human being."
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9505	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:28:00 - [70] - Quote Omega Black Zero wrote: The issues isn't as simple as cloaks, it's eWar coupled with the best movement abilities in the game. They can see you sooner and plan accordingly. Information is very important, and cloaks are only a gimmick at best, because it's not the cloaks that kills me, it's accurate detection and planning that kills me. I feel the scout has too much of both worlds and either needs to be divided into two roles or have eWar nerfed down or reduce the killing efficiency of running a scout (reduction in equipment slots would be a good start) Reducing EWAR is not the solution and neither is dividing roles. The problem can be resolved from more than one angle if needed. In this case, in regards to the TACNET for EWAR scouts, someone once suggested that the chevrons over a target's head should not appear through the wall because it's not from direct line of sight however the chevron still appears on the minimap so that the EWAR scout can guess as to where the target is but still have to figure out whether the target is above them, below them, or on the same floor as they are. The second solution is what was already mentioned. Require respective modules to be fitted in order to benefit from the suit's inherent bonuses. If I wear a suit that gives bonus to profile dampening, I will need to fit a dampener to benefit from that suit bonus. However, other bonuses from skills such as that of the Profile Dampening Skill Book that is NOT suit specific should still be effective with or without the respective mods since that bonus already applies to all classes and roles. The final solution is fixing the cloak so that you can only switch to weapon when the cloak has finished decloaking. All of these solutions could go hand-and-hand and combine so that scouts can still be effective but not be borderline FOTM anymore. Scouts could still run as assaults but just not be as good as a regular assault. Scouts could still run as a logi as well if they want but just not be as good as a logi. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9505	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:34:00 - [71] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Joel II X wrote: Haven't seen a QQ thread in a while, but I agree that it is a problem. What would you propose to fix said problem? I'd remove the extra equipment and some CPU/PG. Nerf Scout overall CPU/PG, then give CPU/PG bonuses for EWAR modules. Fixed. That is not a proper solution and it's sloppy. Please read my previous comment. Besides, some scout suits like the Minmatar Scout is already teetering at the very edge of PG/CPU demand for almost any module you put on it. Also, your solution doesn't address the problem with shotgun + cloakies which is a common thing right now. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 66	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:36:00 - [72] - Quote Thats basicaly that. Class shoul save its merits but..Cross Class should be never better than devoted class. You hit the nail directly "The human being was not chosen to be a god..the god himself should become a human being."
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1791	Posted - 2014.09.21 22:25:00 - [73] - Quote Scouts are given 2 sidearm slots. Light frames retain their light weapon slot. You can have a cloak, or you can have a shotgun, but not both. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1480	Posted - 2014.09.21 22:53:00 - [74] - Quote axis alpha wrote: Jarod Garamonde Jr wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Should be dismantled. There is no reason why scouts are being frontal assault players with their quick TTK CRs. I have killed them and they have killed me. But seeing scouts in this event play outside of their role infringes on a class designed to do such. Scouts should not be slayers. If we cant squeeze it in on delta, changes need to be made come echo. Translation: "People are using emergent gameplay to make shock-troops out of scout suit users, and I am angry about it because I wasn't creative enough to think of it, first, so please nerf it into oblivion, even though I will squall like a little brat about everything and claim to hate this game and everyone who plays it!" Anyone agree with my interpretation of his post? Translation Translation : "Please stop qqing over my op scout it's the only crutch that makes me decent. Please everyone agree with me so my crutch is not nerfed into the ground" LOL bad players will hold on to something thats is OP for dear life. KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3548	Posted - 2014.09.21 23:25:00 - [75] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Joel II X wrote: Haven't seen a QQ thread in a while, but I agree that it is a problem. What would you propose to fix said problem? I'd remove the extra equipment and some CPU/PG. Nerf Scout overall CPU/PG, then give CPU/PG bonuses for EWAR modules. Fixed. That is not a proper solution and it's sloppy. Please read my previous comment. Besides, some scout suits like the Minmatar Scout is already teetering at the very edge of PG/CPU demand for almost any module you put on it. Also, your solution doesn't address the problem with shotgun + cloakies which is a common thing right now. Minmatar have acceptable CPU, it's the PG that totally hurts the suit. Would be nice to get that Nova Knife Fitting Optimization skill that we always wanted.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3297	Posted - 2014.09.21 23:35:00 - [76] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Should be dismantled. There is no reason why scouts are being frontal assault players with their quick TTK CRs. I want scouts to have access to two sidearms... it's not a popular option, but I feel it best places securely into the a agile-recon-EWAR role. Couple that with a small reduction in CPU/PG and we've got balance. Michael Arck wrote: I have killed them and they have killed me. But seeing scouts in this event play outside of their role infringes on a class designed to do such. Scouts should not be slayers. If we cant squeeze it in on delta, changes need to be made come echo. From what I hear, nothing is set in stone for echo yet. There was talk of a logi/commando balance pass. We might not see scouts reviewed until foxtrot. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Zindorak 1.U.P 933	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:13:00 - [77] - Quote I thinks scouts should be flies that are annoying and in your face and pressuring like they are now. But shotgun scouts those things shouldn't exist. They are scruby like the burst HMG Pokemon master! I suck at Tekken lol
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9507	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:23:00 - [78] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Scouts are given 2 sidearm slots. Light frames retain their light weapon slot. You can have a cloak, or you can have a shotgun, but not both. I will admit that this can give basic frame suits some kind of use for once, but I see flaws with this. 1. Light Frames are technically 1 tier below that of Scouts. If the Light Frame gets to have the light weapon but not the Scout, then going from Light Frame to Scout will be a downgrade rather than a upgrade especially considering how much SP is needed to invest into the Scout. 2. Light Frames don't have any inherent bonuses even if you train up the Racial Scout Skill Book to level V. Therefore you won't benefit from anything while wearing the suit. 3. The principle issue with scouts is not the suits being able to carry light weapons but rather how powerful they are with certain weapons such as the Shotgun. Your suggestion effectively punishes scouts just for the mere existence of one or two weapons on the field. I don't see anyone complaining about Scouts using Gallente Assault Rifles. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4895	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:23:00 - [79] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Omega Black Zero wrote: The issues isn't as simple as cloaks, it's eWar coupled with the best movement abilities in the game. They can see you sooner and plan accordingly. Information is very important, and cloaks are only a gimmick at best, because it's not the cloaks that kills me, it's accurate detection and planning that kills me. I feel the scout has too much of both worlds and either needs to be divided into two roles or have eWar nerfed down or reduce the killing efficiency of running a scout (reduction in equipment slots would be a good start) Reducing EWAR is not the solution and neither is dividing roles. The problem can be resolved from more than one angle if needed. Apparently not, according to you.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9507	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:26:00 - [80] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Omega Black Zero wrote: The issues isn't as simple as cloaks, it's eWar coupled with the best movement abilities in the game. They can see you sooner and plan accordingly. Information is very important, and cloaks are only a gimmick at best, because it's not the cloaks that kills me, it's accurate detection and planning that kills me. I feel the scout has too much of both worlds and either needs to be divided into two roles or have eWar nerfed down or reduce the killing efficiency of running a scout (reduction in equipment slots would be a good start) Reducing EWAR is not the solution and neither is dividing roles. The problem can be resolved from more than one angle if needed. Apparently not, according to you. I don't understand what you're trying to say. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4895	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:29:00 - [81] - Quote Don't worry about it. Maken Tosch wrote: Your suggestion effectively punishes scouts just for the mere existence of one or two weapons on the field. I don't see anyone complaining about Scouts using Gallente Assault Rifles. Combinations make things good. Yes, you're being punished because you can manipulate a weapon better than anyone else. The alternative is to remove that weapon from the game, which isn't happening. The shotgun can't be nerfed further either, or it ceases to be viable in any way. The only other thing you can do is effectively change the shotguns role to some sort of mid-range ghetto blaster with a slow rate of fire and a decent, but not overpowering, punch. Nova Knives then take over the role of point blank killing.
Michael Arck 5674	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:30:00 - [82] - Quote Reads thread responses Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9507	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:38:00 - [83] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Don't worry about it. Maken Tosch wrote: Your suggestion effectively punishes scouts just for the mere existence of one or two weapons on the field. I don't see anyone complaining about Scouts using Gallente Assault Rifles. Combinations make things good. Yes, you're being punished because you can manipulate a weapon better than anyone else. The alternative is to remove that weapon from the game, which isn't happening. The shotgun can't be nerfed further either, or it ceases to be viable in any way. The only other thing you can do is effectively change the shotguns role to some sort of mid-range ghetto blaster with a slow rate of fire and a decent, but not overpowering, punch. The shotgun is very difficult to balance. I don't really know what's the main problem with shotguns (outside of the shotgun + cloak issue) since I don't use them. For this, I'll leave it to the shotgun experts to figure it out. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Michael Arck 5674	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:42:00 - [84] - Quote Scar Scrilla wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Should be dismantled. There is no reason why scouts are being frontal assault players with their quick TTK CRs. I have killed them and they have killed me. But seeing scouts in this event play outside of their role infringes on a class designed to do such. Scouts should not be slayers. If we cant squeeze it in on delta, changes need to be made come echo. In the meantime, Burst HMGs shred everything to pieces. Who are u actually? You are the only person from the forums I've never seen in any match. Have u ever heard of diversity? Let ppl make their suit setups as they wish, and stop the QQ. But I agree, get either rid of the cloak or the second eq slot, but at the same time, nerf the ***** burst hmgs dominating everything... The name ia shown, I am Michael Arck. If you are trying to imply that Im just a forum warrior who talks about the game without knowledge, then you are wrong on both accounts. What significant can be found in the belief that since you havent seen me in match, my opinion holds no weight? But Ive seen you though and we've fought in a match. I did get you a couple of times as you have me. I dont see the point of your post. Are you adding to the conversation? Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah** *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Michael Arck 5674	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:48:00 - [85] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I wouldn't go that far... it's not a exploit to simply abuse what is obvious. Usually there is something more sinister and unintentional behind an exploit. Scouts are simply on steroids because CCP gave them a bottle of steroids. It's an open and shut case of having too much power at their finger tips. And before anyone goes into heavies again, yes, I do support the notion of the burst being reverted back to its previous stats. A exploit is defined as taking what has been given and using it to your advantage. Though we humans associate the term exploit as something negative in tone, that does not mean it has no place in the statment that scouts being used as assaults are exploits. Listen man, I hate assault scouts as much as the next guy, but you shouldn't be so quick to brush them off as just "exploits." Though you are right that assault scouts are the product of people knowing that a scout can do the same things an assault can with no drawback, however they are more a product of the game's amazing concept. That concept being that you can run your suit and you character as you wish, no matter how strange or viable/not viable. This game was built on that concept, however that does not necessarily mean that a suit outside of their intended role will be viable or not. The viability of a suit to perform roles outside, and even inside, what is intended should be entirely based on the individual players' skill. That is not the case with assault scouts. Scouts simply have to act/fit as assaults for viability outside their role, this is where the imbalance is found. No drawbacks=No problem assaulting. Scouts need to become on the same level as heavies, in terms of acting as an assault suit(i.e. if a heavy runs around with light weapons they are not much of a threat when it comes to relatively skilled players, unless said heavy is very skilled in acting as an assault). As I said before, the negative tone with the term exploit clouds the perspective. The definition of exploit fits here whether you like the term or not. Doesnt mean Im butthurt and looking to nerf scouts into oblivion. Just as much as anything in this game has been changed to maintain a defined role or ability of item, dropsuit, and weapons, the same should be done here in slayer scouts. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Michael Arck 5675	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:53:00 - [86] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Should be dismantled. There is no reason why scouts are being frontal assault players with their quick TTK CRs. I have killed them and they have killed me. But seeing scouts in this event play outside of their role infringes on a class designed to do such. Scouts should not be slayers. If we cant squeeze it in on delta, changes need to be made come echo. QQ maybe you should get some gun game in your life? You're just another bad player. According to your stats. Come wreck my face bro! Ok Im not a elite player. I dont drown away hours on Dust. Im not great with two thumbsticks. Yet I am capable of killing you and working well with my squadmates. People like you over compensate for reasons that I dont. Even if I was an elite, I definitely wouldnt have your small man arrogant attitude. Dust 514 doesnt pay the rent or isnt something I can put on a resume. If Im not elite, I dont care. Wouldnt stop me from putting a bullet in your brain in match little boy. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 229	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:56:00 - [87] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Joel II X wrote: Haven't seen a QQ thread in a while, but I agree that it is a problem. What would you propose to fix said problem? I'd remove the extra equipment and some CPU/PG. ^ this no reason for them to have 2 equipment slots. Agreed +1. Scouts can currently be logis, assaults and be a scout. The Blazing Intellect Machine
Michael Arck 5675	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:57:00 - [88] - Quote I want to thank everyone who offered their opinions in a constructive manner, offering various perspectives in this discussion. I didnt agree with all points and some I did, but I always respect mature objective postings. Thank you for your time. I enjoyed reading your posts. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9507	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:58:00 - [89] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Joel II X wrote: Haven't seen a QQ thread in a while, but I agree that it is a problem. What would you propose to fix said problem? I'd remove the extra equipment and some CPU/PG. ^ this no reason for them to have 2 equipment slots. Agreed +1. Scouts can currently be logis, assaults and be a scout. But they should have the ability to be used as assaults or logis. Just don't let them be better than an assault or logi in the same class. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
The Master Race Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 7	Posted - 2014.09.22 01:18:00 - [90] - Quote They should make it so they can only fit side arms I mean that is why they have stealth right is to be able to choose position. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.



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