DUST Search - Slayer scouts...

Thor Odinson42 wrote:

gustavo acosta wrote:

The issue with running a scout as an assault suit is that there's no drawbacks to it. If I run my gal scout with pure armor tank I still get almost 40% dampened off of my profile, and a built in advanced precision enhancer.

If a logi tries to run as an assault, they're limited to only one weapon the assault suit is better in that respect.

If a heavy tries to run as an assault, they're limited in movement speed and do not have sufficient damage output to facilitate the amount of hp and low movement speed they have.

If a scout tries to run an assault they're are hindered by their lower hp, however when you consider the amount of speed, regen, and built-in E-war said hindrance can be overlooked, among other things a scout can tank said hindrance away, and beyond that they get the benefit of having an extra equipment slot.

Though scouts SHOULD be ABLE to perform the role of an assault suit, however hindrances should be put in place that stop the scout suit's ability to passively outperform the assault suit in terms of frontal assault. That doesn't mean a scout should NEVER beat an assault at frontal assault, but that the individual player should be relatively skilled at combat to do so...

Efficacy to modules should be the scout bonuses, not straight bonuses to suits.

That's the angle necessary to balance scouts. I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread, but I've only made it this far and I've been scanning posts quickly thus far.

Quote:

Again, a good recommendation is to make it so that we need to fit respective modules on the scout suits if we want to take advantage of the scout bonuses. The same could likely be applied to other classes as well. If you're running an EWAR scout, you shouldn't be using the EWAR bonus if you have no EWAR modules fitted. In the case of a Minmatar Scout which has no EWAR bonus, this would mean you will have to make a choice between fitting kinetic catalyers/profile dampeners and that of the code breakers. You would not be able to benefit from both.


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Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9493	Posted - 2014.09.21 07:34:00 - [1] - Quote What about scouts like me whose primary weapon is not even a light weapon at all but rather a sidearm such as the Nova Knives? I'm a ninja after all and scouts are deserving of such a role. In a way, ninja knifers are slayers but not in the sense that you traditionally run and gun since ninja knifers prefer flanking and attacking from the behind picking out the weakest link or taking out lonely stragglers while also providing intel and hacking things. I have to agree that scouts like the shotgun cloakies need be looked at and perhaps we need to make sure that scouts don't leave assaults behind like how the logi once did in the past to the assault and in some rare cases to the scout. I have read many recommendations such as removing light slots and restricting scouts to using only sidearms, removing the extra equipment slot, penalties to fitting armor mods, etc. But none of these seem to be carefully thought out ideas. However, one idea in particular stood out to me as making the most sense without nerfing the scout suit too badly in the process. That idea is to have the Racial Scout Dropsuit Skill Book bonuses be converted from passive bonuses to efficacy bonuses similar to what you see with shield and armor efficacy bonuses today. The bonus would only kick in if the respective module is fitted. This way, it will encourage scouts to actually fit the modules rather than simply rely on the passive skill book bonuses alone such as how a Minmatar scout currently doesn't need to fit any code breakers to hack somewhat fast once you get the skill book to level V. This will likely force me to make a choice. Do I want to fit my suit for maximum [insert role here] or do I brick tank it and lose the bonus to that role altogether until I finally decide to drop the tank and slap on the respective modules to use the bonus? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9502	Posted - 2014.09.21 19:26:00 - [2] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I wouldn't go that far... it's not a exploit to simply abuse what is obvious. Usually there is something more sinister and unintentional behind an exploit. Scouts are simply on steroids because CCP gave them a bottle of steroids. It's an open and shut case of having too much power at their finger tips. And before anyone goes into heavies again, yes, I do support the notion of the burst being reverted back to its previous stats. A exploit is defined as taking what has been given and using it to your advantage. Though we humans associate the term exploit as something negative in tone, that does not mean it has no place in the statment that scouts being used as assaults are exploits. According to CCP Games, an exploit is something that enables you to do something beyond what a given mechanic is suppose to enable you to do. In other words, if it's not intended by CCP, then it's very likely to be an exploit. Scouts are allowed to be used as assaults much like how a Logi is allowed to be an assault or how an assault is allowed to be a logi or a scout. It's just that you are not suppose to be as "effective" an assault in a scout suit as that of a regular assault if you fitted your scout as such. I think that's the main problem you're referring to. Scouts are allowed to act like assaults if we want to. We're just not suppose be better than a regular assault in the same class. Again, a good recommendation is to make it so that we need to fit respective modules on the scout suits if we want to take advantage of the scout bonuses. The same could likely be applied to other classes as well. If you're running an EWAR scout, you shouldn't be using the EWAR bonus if you have no EWAR modules fitted. In the case of a Minmatar Scout which has no EWAR bonus, this would mean you will have to make a choice between fitting kinetic catalyers/profile dampeners and that of the code breakers. You would not be able to benefit from both. But to me, the overall problem with scouts is not scouts with CRs but scouts with shotguns + cloaks. The cloaking mechanic is a bit broken still. There needs to be sufficient delay so that you will completely decloak before being able to shoot. I support the idea of requiring the cloak to finish decloaking before allowing any weapon to fire. In fact, the wrist projector on your left arm should stay up while decloaking. Once you are completely decloaked, you can pull out your weapon and immediately shoot. This will make it impossible for shotgunners to welp you before their cloak even has a chance to decloak and encourage a more tactical gameplay. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9505	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:28:00 - [3] - Quote Omega Black Zero wrote: The issues isn't as simple as cloaks, it's eWar coupled with the best movement abilities in the game. They can see you sooner and plan accordingly. Information is very important, and cloaks are only a gimmick at best, because it's not the cloaks that kills me, it's accurate detection and planning that kills me. I feel the scout has too much of both worlds and either needs to be divided into two roles or have eWar nerfed down or reduce the killing efficiency of running a scout (reduction in equipment slots would be a good start) Reducing EWAR is not the solution and neither is dividing roles. The problem can be resolved from more than one angle if needed. In this case, in regards to the TACNET for EWAR scouts, someone once suggested that the chevrons over a target's head should not appear through the wall because it's not from direct line of sight however the chevron still appears on the minimap so that the EWAR scout can guess as to where the target is but still have to figure out whether the target is above them, below them, or on the same floor as they are. The second solution is what was already mentioned. Require respective modules to be fitted in order to benefit from the suit's inherent bonuses. If I wear a suit that gives bonus to profile dampening, I will need to fit a dampener to benefit from that suit bonus. However, other bonuses from skills such as that of the Profile Dampening Skill Book that is NOT suit specific should still be effective with or without the respective mods since that bonus already applies to all classes and roles. The final solution is fixing the cloak so that you can only switch to weapon when the cloak has finished decloaking. All of these solutions could go hand-and-hand and combine so that scouts can still be effective but not be borderline FOTM anymore. Scouts could still run as assaults but just not be as good as a regular assault. Scouts could still run as a logi as well if they want but just not be as good as a logi. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9505	Posted - 2014.09.21 21:34:00 - [4] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Joel II X wrote: Haven't seen a QQ thread in a while, but I agree that it is a problem. What would you propose to fix said problem? I'd remove the extra equipment and some CPU/PG. Nerf Scout overall CPU/PG, then give CPU/PG bonuses for EWAR modules. Fixed. That is not a proper solution and it's sloppy. Please read my previous comment. Besides, some scout suits like the Minmatar Scout is already teetering at the very edge of PG/CPU demand for almost any module you put on it. Also, your solution doesn't address the problem with shotgun + cloakies which is a common thing right now. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9507	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:23:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Scouts are given 2 sidearm slots. Light frames retain their light weapon slot. You can have a cloak, or you can have a shotgun, but not both. I will admit that this can give basic frame suits some kind of use for once, but I see flaws with this. 1. Light Frames are technically 1 tier below that of Scouts. If the Light Frame gets to have the light weapon but not the Scout, then going from Light Frame to Scout will be a downgrade rather than a upgrade especially considering how much SP is needed to invest into the Scout. 2. Light Frames don't have any inherent bonuses even if you train up the Racial Scout Skill Book to level V. Therefore you won't benefit from anything while wearing the suit. 3. The principle issue with scouts is not the suits being able to carry light weapons but rather how powerful they are with certain weapons such as the Shotgun. Your suggestion effectively punishes scouts just for the mere existence of one or two weapons on the field. I don't see anyone complaining about Scouts using Gallente Assault Rifles. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9507	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:26:00 - [6] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Omega Black Zero wrote: The issues isn't as simple as cloaks, it's eWar coupled with the best movement abilities in the game. They can see you sooner and plan accordingly. Information is very important, and cloaks are only a gimmick at best, because it's not the cloaks that kills me, it's accurate detection and planning that kills me. I feel the scout has too much of both worlds and either needs to be divided into two roles or have eWar nerfed down or reduce the killing efficiency of running a scout (reduction in equipment slots would be a good start) Reducing EWAR is not the solution and neither is dividing roles. The problem can be resolved from more than one angle if needed. Apparently not, according to you. I don't understand what you're trying to say. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9507	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:38:00 - [7] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Don't worry about it. Maken Tosch wrote: Your suggestion effectively punishes scouts just for the mere existence of one or two weapons on the field. I don't see anyone complaining about Scouts using Gallente Assault Rifles. Combinations make things good. Yes, you're being punished because you can manipulate a weapon better than anyone else. The alternative is to remove that weapon from the game, which isn't happening. The shotgun can't be nerfed further either, or it ceases to be viable in any way. The only other thing you can do is effectively change the shotguns role to some sort of mid-range ghetto blaster with a slow rate of fire and a decent, but not overpowering, punch. The shotgun is very difficult to balance. I don't really know what's the main problem with shotguns (outside of the shotgun + cloak issue) since I don't use them. For this, I'll leave it to the shotgun experts to figure it out. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9507	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:58:00 - [8] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Joel II X wrote: Haven't seen a QQ thread in a while, but I agree that it is a problem. What would you propose to fix said problem? I'd remove the extra equipment and some CPU/PG. ^ this no reason for them to have 2 equipment slots. Agreed +1. Scouts can currently be logis, assaults and be a scout. But they should have the ability to be used as assaults or logis. Just don't let them be better than an assault or logi in the same class. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9515	Posted - 2014.09.23 00:38:00 - [9] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: The issue with running a scout as an assault suit is that there's no drawbacks to it. If I run my gal scout with pure armor tank I still get almost 40% dampened off of my profile, and a built in advanced precision enhancer. If a logi tries to run as an assault, they're limited to only one weapon the assault suit is better in that respect. If a heavy tries to run as an assault, they're limited in movement speed and do not have sufficient damage output to facilitate the amount of hp and low movement speed they have. If a scout tries to run an assault they're are hindered by their lower hp, however when you consider the amount of speed, regen, and built-in E-war said hindrance can be overlooked, among other things a scout can tank said hindrance away, and beyond that they get the benefit of having an extra equipment slot. Though scouts SHOULD be ABLE to perform the role of an assault suit, however hindrances should be put in place that stop the scout suit's ability to passively outperform the assault suit in terms of frontal assault. That doesn't mean a scout should NEVER beat an assault at frontal assault, but that the individual player should be relatively skilled at combat to do so... Efficacy to modules should be the scout bonuses, not straight bonuses to suits. That's the angle necessary to balance scouts. I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread, but I've only made it this far and I've been scanning posts quickly thus far. I actually brought that up a couple of pages back. Quote: Again, a good recommendation is to make it so that we need to fit respective modules on the scout suits if we want to take advantage of the scout bonuses. The same could likely be applied to other classes as well. If you're running an EWAR scout, you shouldn't be using the EWAR bonus if you have no EWAR modules fitted. In the case of a Minmatar Scout which has no EWAR bonus, this would mean you will have to make a choice between fitting kinetic catalyers/profile dampeners and that of the code breakers. You would not be able to benefit from both. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.