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Soulja Ghostface
MCDUSTDONALDS
Top Men.
2717
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Posted - 2014.09.06 01:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault
Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v
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Atiim
11870
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Posted - 2014.09.06 01:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
How is it "bullocks" exactly?
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Tech De Ra
Electronic Sports League
680
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Posted - 2014.09.06 01:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
If a helicopter collides with another helicopter, bad things will happen
If a dropship rams another dropship, amusing things will happen
i see no issue, it turned collision from a catastrophe into a fun meta
Prime League champion
SGL Sidearm champion
Fanfest '14 All star champion
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J4yne C0bb
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
775
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Posted - 2014.09.06 01:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
I support it, because it sounds kinky.
What are we talking about, again?
Min Logi | aka Punch R0ckgroin, fatman
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Tech De Ra
Electronic Sports League
681
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Posted - 2014.09.06 02:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
J4yne C0bb wrote:I support it, because it sounds kinky.
What are we talking about, again?
ramming -ª3
Prime League champion
SGL Sidearm champion
Fanfest '14 All star champion
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medomai grey
warravens
Capital Punishment.
964
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Posted - 2014.09.06 02:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
We don't have jets in Dust; maybe in Legion.
What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
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Tech De Ra
Electronic Sports League
681
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Posted - 2014.09.06 02:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:We don't have jets in Dust; maybe in Legion.
we assume he means dropships
Prime League champion
SGL Sidearm champion
Fanfest '14 All star champion
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
407
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Posted - 2014.09.06 02:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fighting a very visible ram attempt is more entertaining than fighting an invisible swarm... Please don't take more fun out of the game. |
Xocoyol Zaraoul
Superior Genetics
2295
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Posted - 2014.09.06 03:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
A Caldari Scout with max sensor skills, and two low slot complex sensor extensions does wonders to detect any and all would-be rammers.
Anywho, he does mention them on a youtube, I just don't remember his stance on it.
"You see those red dots over there?
Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
1700
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Posted - 2014.09.06 03:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Atiim wrote:How is it "bullocks" exactly?
Allow scouts to squish you when they jump on your head. It's kind of like that.
Shoot Scout with yes.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2008
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Posted - 2014.09.06 03:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Every time you bring an ADS out, it's as good as lost.
If you're fighting a fair fight, one of you are doing it wrong.
CCP doesn't care as long as it's not game breaking. They're probably laughing at you, I know I am.
-Professional ADS pilot since 1.6 |
Zindorak
1.U.P
833
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Posted - 2014.09.06 03:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic
Pokemon master!
I suck at Tekken lol
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skippy678
Bloodline Rebellion
Public.Disorder.
2590
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Posted - 2014.09.06 03:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
I have been on both sides of this one. changing anything about that in the dropships favor would push "gamebreaking" right now.
however, I have met some all-star pilots who can dodge my slow ass gorgan the whole match, even further there are some great pilots who dodge me once and then blow me out of the sky quicktime.
literally it is the only way to get rid of them sometimes, and honestly its 20% of the cost of just 1 proto logi suit (which he probably already took from me) wich i why he is getting rammed in the first place lolz
leave it alone its only a problem for poor pilots and poor people.
My Youtube Lvl. 2 Forum Warrior
Follow:@skippy6gaming #BetaVet
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Tech De Ra
Electronic Sports League
683
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Posted - 2014.09.06 11:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic
Think of the ramming dropship as a very large, very expensive bullet
because thats what it is, its AV because it knocks you out of the sky, you just wont admit it
Prime League champion
SGL Sidearm champion
Fanfest '14 All star champion
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1008
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Posted - 2014.09.06 11:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
I was in a match where red Gorgon rammed 3 blue dropships out of the sky and me aswell. This all happened in 20 seconds, I was the first one to go and I was watching the 3 other friendly dropships fall from the sky and then he flew away like a badass with full armor. I was so pissed at that being possible but I was also laughing my a$$ off during this. He was a genuine badass, ramming down 4 dropships in 20 seconds and not taking any armor damage. He obviously knew what he was doing.
And what's even more funny is that he started the match by doing this, it was domination and the point was still neutral when we were all going down or were downed already.
I might have been able to dodge him but like a good blueberry I was placing uplinks on top of a tall building next to the point. 
And when I got back in my dropship it got knocked off the building and that's the end of my story. Don't even remember what happened during the rest of the match because the start was so awesome. 
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Michael Arck
5418
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Posted - 2014.09.06 12:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
I support emergent gameplay.
But I think Judge agrees with you that its bullocks. Dont quote me on it but I believe he said he doesnt agree with it.
Archistrategos
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1273
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Posted - 2014.09.06 12:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:A Caldari Scout with max sensor skills, and two low slot complex sensor extensions does wonders to detect any and all would-be rammers.
Anywho, he does mention them on a youtube, I just don't remember his stance on it.
No it doesn't because dropsuit passive scans don't apply while in vehicles (I have tested this, vehicles overwrite suit stats), you will notice however if you go into the dropships stats screen that it has a 50m passive scan range.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11997
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Posted - 2014.09.06 13:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
How do you guys fall for dropship ramming when a semi-bad pilot like me never found them as an issue?
Assault dropships are more agile than the cheap dropships used for ramming, use it for your advantage.
Heck I often make them ram into buildings 
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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CommanderBolt
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
1478
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Posted - 2014.09.06 13:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
I think it should be a viable tactic to use AS LONG AS BOTH crashing parties are destroyed in the process. Being able to use your derpship as a battering ram that does not die in the process I feel is the only unbalanced part of derpaderp ramming.
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
739
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Posted - 2014.09.06 13:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Fighting a very visible ram attempt is more entertaining than fighting an invisible swarm... Please don't take more fun out of the game.
I only wish that passive scans weren't utter ****. If I had the chance to detect and maybe evade a ramships, I wouldn't mind, but by the time I know it's there I've already been smashed.
Otherwise yeah, shooting ramships is fun.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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TechMechMeds
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
5487
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Posted - 2014.09.06 13:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tech De Ra wrote:J4yne C0bb wrote:I support it, because it sounds kinky.
What are we talking about, again? ramming -ª3
Woke up, rammed, cba with this afternoon.
My hometown beat Manchester united.
Git gud man utd.
4-0
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Thumb Green
Raymond James Corp
1394
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Posted - 2014.09.06 14:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
I don't see why he wouldn't support a valid tactic.
medomai grey wrote:We don't have jets in Dust; maybe in Legion.
Actually we do, there's that one picture during the loading screen that shows 2 of them.
We don't kick ass, we kick dick and we kick it hard.
Join us in our Pumpkin Crushing
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Atiim
11881
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Posted - 2014.09.06 14:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Atiim wrote:How is it "bullocks" exactly? Allow scouts to squish you when they jump on your head. It's kind of like that.
I don't see a problem with that.
If they're that close to me, they'd OHK me with SGs or NKs anyway.
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1969
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Posted - 2014.09.06 15:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gallente ship tactics in EVE include microwarping in and ramming ships. You don't damage the ship but you knock it off course so it can't speed away or warp.
Gallente fight close so no problem with the Gal DS ramming and surviving vs. a Cal DS. The Gal DS does take damage even to the point of possibly being destroyed if not fitted properly for a ram.
A non-assault DS piloted solo like I do has a valid method of attack. I run a CRU and scanner. My attack is a ram and a ram is hard to pull off anyway.
Brick tanking a scout suit since April 2013!
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Vapor Forseti
Ancient Textiles.
1347
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Posted - 2014.09.06 15:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
How come when two clones ram each other, one doesn't explode? Dropships get all the fun. 
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Kyoudai Furinkazan
1158
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Posted - 2014.09.06 15:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Drop ship ramming is like jihad jeeps without the explosives , where the ship is the actual bomb .
Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
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JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2014.09.06 16:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Atiim wrote:How is it "bullocks" exactly?
Of course you wouldn't think it's a cheap tactic. It's like ISIS using women and children as human shields.
It's the same thing as a suicide LAV. But you think it's fair even though you have much documented trouble destroying vehicles. |
JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2014.09.06 16:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tech De Ra wrote:Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic Think of the ramming dropship as a very large, very expensive bullet because thats what it is, its AV because it knocks you out of the sky, you just wont admit it
Might as well call fluxes and a mass driver AV. |
JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2014.09.06 16:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:I support emergent gameplay.
But I think Judge agrees with you that its bullocks. Dont quote me on it but I believe he said he doesnt agree with it.
Judge doesn't care as long as it's not happening to him. I have however noticed him and his squad continually backing out against a squad of notorious tankers. |
JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2014.09.06 16:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:How do you guys fall for dropship ramming when a semi-bad pilot like me never found them as an issue? Assault dropships are more agile than the cheap dropships used for ramming, use it for your advantage. Heck I often make them ram into buildings
lolk, someone that finds it impossible to destroy vehicles using one himself? I'm Jesus Christ reincarnated. |
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Soulja Ghostface
MCDUSTDONALDS
Top Men.
2726
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Posted - 2014.09.06 17:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
Atiim wrote:How is it "bullocks" exactly?
You have invested X amount of sp into swarm launchers to effectively fight vehicles.
0 sp and cheaper than a a broken shoebox gorgon does the job better.
As a longtime swarmer what is your opinion on this?
Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault
Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v
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Zindorak
1.U.P
839
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 17:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
JudgeIsABadPilot wrote:Tech De Ra wrote:Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic Think of the ramming dropship as a very large, very expensive bullet because thats what it is, its AV because it knocks you out of the sky, you just wont admit it Might as well call fluxes and a mass driver AV.
Yea and flay locks
Pokemon master!
I suck at Tekken lol
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
4810
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 18:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:Atiim wrote:How is it "bullocks" exactly? You have invested X amount of sp into swarm launchers to effectively fight vehicles. 0 sp and cheaper than a a broken shoebox gorgon does the job better. As a longtime swarmer what is your opinion on this?
As a proficiency 5 swarmer, I am pleased to report that I jihad jeep'd dozens and dozens of land tanks following 1.7. I have intentions to do the same with drop ships, assuming swarms are to remain underpowered and afterburners free passes.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Leo Look
Shadow Company HQ
Lokun Listamenn
66
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Posted - 2014.09.06 18:15:00 -
[34] - Quote
I'm a ADS pilot and it pisses me off when I get knocked out of the sky like this. but it is part of the game and because of this it is fare play.
with that being said the issue is not ramming it is the amount of damage that any dropship takes from any bump into anything it bumps at any speed. I have bumped a wall at what cant be more then 5 or 10 mph and lost all my shields and half my armor that's 900 shish shields and another 1500 armor from a low speed bump this don't make any sence in any way. I have hit walls in LAV's at much higher speeds and almost no damage.
I know being a beta vet that it was a lot worst at one point you could not look at a DS without it blowing up but on the other hand at the start of DS in this game they took no damage from hitting stuff other then the ground (my funny 1st flight 5sec long).
the fix is not removing the bump damage but dropping it some maybe 25% or maybe making it work by factoring in speed (moving closer or away from hit) and angle of hit and maybe weight of DS in the bump like when a LAV hits a tank I seen if you hit the tank and it's moving away you may not blow up but when it's moving at you your dead every time.
also since we are talking about bumping remove the insta death from touching the MCC with a DS nothing makes be madder then taking off touching the MCC and blowing up. |
Thumb Green
Raymond James Corp
1397
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 18:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
Leo Look wrote:I'm a ADS pilot and it pisses me off when I get knocked out of the sky like this. but it is part of the game and because of this it is fare play.
with that being said the issue is not ramming it is the amount of damage that any dropship takes from any bump into anything it bumps at any speed. I have bumped a wall at what cant be more then 5 or 10 mph and lost all my shields and half my armor that's 900 shish shields and another 1500 armor from a low speed bump this don't make any sence in any way. I have hit walls in LAV's at much higher speeds and almost no damage.
I know being a beta vet that it was a lot worst at one point you could not look at a DS without it blowing up but on the other hand at the start of DS in this game they took no damage from hitting stuff other then the ground (my funny 1st flight 5sec long).
the fix is not removing the bump damage but dropping it some maybe 25% or maybe making it work by factoring in speed (moving closer or away from hit) and angle of hit and maybe weight of DS in the bump like when a LAV hits a tank I seen if you hit the tank and it's moving away you may not blow up but when it's moving at you your dead every time.
also since we are talking about bumping remove the insta death from touching the MCC with a DS nothing makes be madder then taking off touching the MCC and blowing up.
The collision damage isn't always consistent either. I crashed into an Incubus about week ago in a viper and almost killed it but hardly took any damage myself (full armor and a bit of shields left) and I was in a stock viper.
We don't kick ass, we kick dick and we kick it hard.
Join us in our Pumpkin Crushing
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2757
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat.
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Kin Cat
Another Clone in the Wall
47
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat.
oh man please push CCP on getting rid of the JLAV and derpship
you are my hero |
Bahirae Serugiusu
Vendetta Reactionary Force
14
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:40:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ramming a ADS is annoying I will say that much but way I see it you've got combat experience dodging forge guns, swarm launchers, rail turrets and the occasional plasma cannon (which should be 1 hit kill on dropships for flying so slowly). All I've got is experience doing laps around a map at high altitude with a CRU playing taxi to idiots who won't jump out. Watch your surrounding and you won't have any problems.
And ramming a plane with another plane is entirely practical. In World War 2 the Luftwaffe was stripping down fighters to ram Allied bombers and parachute to safety (look up Sonderkommando Elbe). |
Bahirae Serugiusu
Vendetta Reactionary Force
14
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:44:00 -
[39] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic
So if a scout kills a heavy with a nova knife it needs to be removed? |
Coleman Gray
Opus Arcana
Covert Intervention
1196
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 22:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
Only ADS's can Ram, that sounds sensible to me at least since you'd imagine an assault ship would be prepared to slam into walls or vehicles.
If Preparation is half of the battle and knowing is the other half, Then there is no need to fight.
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TechMechMeds
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
5499
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:48:00 -
[41] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
I'd call it emergent game play through gritted teeth as these kinds of butthurt and easy tactics have existed in games for ages as you probably know.
I think it's stupid and especially when you are flying shield drop ships and a gorgon scrub can literally harass and destroy you often during play when you are flying a regular drop ship with gunners.
I can't count how many times that i am flying my pimped Myron withgunners while having a battle with a grimsnes and they either ram before they get beaten or they skip the gunfight and go straight for ramming.
Not exactly emergent game play, more like an emergent butthurt/lack of skill hoop.
My hometown beat Manchester united.
Git gud man utd.
4-0
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2759
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Posted - 2014.09.06 23:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
I use emergent to mean that it was not designed behavior by the games developers. It is a type of game-play that the players created. It emerged from the structures given to us. I apply no quality measure to it.
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Symbioticforks
Pure Evil.
815
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Posted - 2014.09.06 23:07:00 -
[43] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
These are the things I want to say..
Sounds like you're trying to be a "solo player" in a very expensive piece of hardware. (ADS) If you were in a squad with other players because this is a teamwork based game after all, you would know if there was an enemy drop ship flying around. Possibly trying to dive bomb you.
I've found that an Incubus with (4000hp+) is a very effective counter to suicide ramming tactics. Play any other build and you're essentially allowing the enemy to have a cheap hard counter to your inferior play style.
When it comes to damage dealing capabilities I have never killed more than 10 people with a viper, let alone the same viper in a match. Attack Drop Ships are capable of dealing way more damage than a viper. Except in the area where the physics engine in involved. I wouldn't compare your lack of immunity to physics to the damage scaling of a prototype weapon vs. a militia weapon. Unless you consider your hull a weapon.
Maybe you shouldn't be netting positive gains every single match running an ADS. It is a prototype vehicle after all, the advantage is yours.. until people get sick of you and decide to counter it. (if they can)
Not sure if I meant any of this..
Sniping Dust 514 (video series)
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Glitch116
Carbon 7
Iron Oxide.
142
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Posted - 2014.09.07 02:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards. Only ADS's can Ram, that sounds sensible to me at least since you'd imagine an assault ship would be prepared to slam into walls or vehicles.
you can do it but it's going to cost you 
I AM THE KING OF THE BLASTER!!!
deal with it
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Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
421
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Posted - 2014.09.07 05:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat.
You don't? You need to step up your game and make a militia plasma cannon fit, then.
Stabby-stabber extraordinaire
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hold that
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
228
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Posted - 2014.09.07 05:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic
and what av is good for taking out ADS? |
Keeriam Miray
R 0 N 1 N
337
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Posted - 2014.09.07 09:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Idk but CCP can reduce collision damage for dropships to 25-50%, shouldn't be hard to implement. Reduced collision dmg should fix this problem.
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
978
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Posted - 2014.09.07 09:57:00 -
[48] - Quote
its as valid as a suicide jeep.
if i cant orbit a tank in a jeep with a railgun without blowing up from one little bump why should you be able to be impervious to dropship ramming?
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Every time you bring an ADS out, it's as good as lost.
If you're fighting a fair fight, one of you are doing it wrong.
CCP doesn't care as long as it's not game breaking. They're probably laughing at you, I know I am.
-Professional ADS pilot since 1.6
hey i havent seen you in a long time, your in labe now?
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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Thurak1
Psygod9
986
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 11:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Atiim wrote:How is it "bullocks" exactly? Allow scouts to squish you when they jump on your head. It's kind of like that.
Personally i dont know why my sentinal cant squish other suits when i jump from a very tall tower. |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
365
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 16:31:00 -
[50] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
WOW
There was a Titan pilot in EVE who lose his ship mainly because of noobs that self-destroy, or let Titan SmartBoombs destroys their ships around Titan - he could not warp out because of the wrecks around him, he was in cage that prevent him from running.
History of New Eden know thousand that kind of stories when something really trivial kills dreams worth months of playing. It is normal, accept it. 
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Echo 1991
warravens
Capital Punishment.
421
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Posted - 2014.09.07 16:40:00 -
[51] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
See thats the thing about physics, it effects everyone equally. No amount of sp is gonna save you from blowing up if you hit a wall too fast, same should apply to dropship ramming.
And lets be real here, the only time a militia vehicle is ever gonna do more damage is if rams you. |
Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2022
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Posted - 2014.09.07 18:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing.
There may not be good examples in Dust, but in Eve there is an excellent example in Catalyst ganking. Using 10m worth of catalysts (destroyers with a long of firepower) can easily kill a +200m Exhumer even in the security of highsec. The difference being that the ADS can actually fight back.
They are similar in that to prevent them, you need to be paying attention to your surroundings, either watching D-scan and local or paying attention to what the enemy calls in or listening for another dropship's engines. |
Thurak1
Psygod9
994
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 18:58:00 -
[53] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards. Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. There may not be good examples in Dust, but in Eve there is an excellent example in Catalyst ganking. Using 10m worth of catalysts (destroyers with a long of firepower) can easily kill a +200m Exhumer even in the security of highsec. The difference being that the ADS can actually fight back. They are similar in that to prevent them, you need to be paying attention to your surroundings, either watching D-scan and local or paying attention to what the enemy calls in or listening for another dropship's engines.
I kill proto suits on a fairly regular basis and i normally use a standard sentinel suit with blueprint mods and maybe an advanced hmg.
Its more about skill points than isk. |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
365
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 19:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
Thurak1 wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards. Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. There may not be good examples in Dust, but in Eve there is an excellent example in Catalyst ganking. Using 10m worth of catalysts (destroyers with a long of firepower) can easily kill a +200m Exhumer even in the security of highsec. The difference being that the ADS can actually fight back. They are similar in that to prevent them, you need to be paying attention to your surroundings, either watching D-scan and local or paying attention to what the enemy calls in or listening for another dropship's engines. I kill proto suits on a fairly regular basis and i normally use a standard sentinel suit with blueprint mods and maybe an advanced hmg. Its more about skill points than isk.
Generally I agree, but with Heavy suits it is more about total HP.
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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LAVALLOIS Nash
QcGOLD
270
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Posted - 2014.09.07 19:08:00 -
[55] - Quote
I do ramming more often as a aggressive defensive gesture. The vast majority of the time, im putting down uplinks up high and i either ram or get rammed by an enemy milita dropship doing the exact same thing. I only slam 1 ADS out of the sky for every 10 milita dropship i smash.
Even if I dont destroy it though, just trying to ram the ADS can take him out of the conflict for some time. Rail canons are harder to dance with, but I can play tag for a long time with an ADS while i dodge it s missiles. Even If I eventually end up dying, the enemy lost its air cover than entire time.
And sometimes i even get the bonus of the ADS smashing into something while dodging me and going down in flames. Cant blame that one on me! =) |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2763
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Posted - 2014.09.07 21:35:00 -
[56] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing.
And ISK is not the deciding factor as I posted. A militia DS can OHK a Proto ADS. This is not the case in any other area of DUST that has balance. Militia should not OHK proto. In the Sky, on the ground. It is not balanced.
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
426
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Posted - 2014.09.07 21:55:00 -
[57] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. And ISK is not the deciding factor as I posted. A militia DS can OHK a Proto ADS. This is not the case in any other area of DUST that has balance. Militia should not OHK proto. In the Sky, on the ground. It is not balanced.
It's easier to kill a proto heavy with a starter fit than it is to kill an ads with a mlt dropship... You're forgetting the speed/acceleration difference. Even without an afterburner you can side-step and watch a mlt dropship go balls deep into the building behind you (heck I do with my gorgon when someone tries to ram another gorgon into it) it's easy and funny and should stay in the game.
Not sure about this, but is there (or will there be) a mlt plasma cannon? Because that could 1 shot at point blank range (also suiciding) only difference is you could have a lot more speed to get next to someone. |
Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2023
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Posted - 2014.09.07 22:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. And ISK is not the deciding factor as I posted. A militia DS can OHK a Proto ADS. This is not the case in any other area of DUST that has balance. Militia should not OHK proto. In the Sky, on the ground. It is not balanced.
Would you mind explaining how you'd fix ADS ramming? |
Echo 1991
warravens
Capital Punishment.
422
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 22:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. And ISK is not the deciding factor as I posted. A militia DS can OHK a Proto ADS. This is not the case in any other area of DUST that has balance. Militia should not OHK proto. In the Sky, on the ground. It is not balanced.
Its called physics. As long as physics works properly, it is balanced. |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
365
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 01:01:00 -
[60] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. And ISK is not the deciding factor as I posted. A militia DS can OHK a Proto ADS. This is not the case in any other area of DUST that has balance. Militia should not OHK proto. In the Sky, on the ground. It is not balanced. Militia Forge Gun can OHK a Proto - it's hard as ramming ADS with Militia DS but it is possible, would you nerf them as well?
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
981
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 16:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. And ISK is not the deciding factor as I posted. A militia DS can OHK a Proto ADS. This is not the case in any other area of DUST that has balance. Militia should not OHK proto. In the Sky, on the ground. It is not balanced.
thats fantastic, now we can get rid of the code that says a lav blows up when bumped by a tank.
2 people in a lav orbiting a tank should be able to kill it, not get one hit killed at 2 miles per hour.
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4157
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 19:10:00 -
[62] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Atiim wrote:How is it "bullocks" exactly? Allow scouts to squish you when they jump on your head. It's kind of like that.
I have killed people by jumping off buildings and activating my Inertial Dampeners before landing on them. I assume you can do this in a Scout suit as well.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3292
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 19:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
I, on the other hand, massively support dropship ramming as a tactic, and will oppose any attempt to nerf or break the capability, particularly as long as ADSes are OP as crud. Most OP gameplay style in the game, and crying about the one edge case threat you can face.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
755
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Posted - 2014.09.08 19:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
Support 100%, how else is Infantry suppose to take down ADS? Lolswarms? |
Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2026
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 19:48:00 -
[65] - Quote
^Lol @ ADS is OP
Please, the Flaylock way back when was more OP than the ADS has ever been close to (skill stacking uncounted). In an average match, an ADS will rarely score above what a proto stomper would (and cost 3-4x as much, even without a proto turret), and even less if there is actually decent AV on the field.
A more accurate term would be "useful." They're "useful" for clearing the tanks that everyone was crying about for the past few months. They're "useful" for clearing rooftops, uplink spam, etc., the very backbone of most ground-holding strategies.
It is a high SP, high player-skill intensive role that has unique benefits to any team that can field one. And even then, they can be thwarted by a single AVer that has any idea what they're doing. |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3298
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 20:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:^Lol @ ADS is OP
...an ADS will rarely score above what a proto stomper would (and cost 3-4x as much, even without a proto turret)...
The question is... how many ADSes do they LOSE? How many matches do you see ADSes not dying at all?
Right now, the only way to lose an ADS is incompetence. They can easily escape a situation where they're threatened and quickly repair and return to the fight. Their cooldowns are short, so they can repeat this behavior over and over.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2027
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 20:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:^Lol @ ADS is OP
...an ADS will rarely score above what a proto stomper would (and cost 3-4x as much, even without a proto turret)... The question is... how many ADSes do they LOSE? How many matches do you see ADSes not dying at all? Right now, the only way to lose an ADS is incompetence. They can easily escape a situation where they're threatened and quickly repair and return to the fight. Their cooldowns are short, so they can repeat this behavior over and over.
I've said this before and I'll say it a million times more:
A single decent AVer/ few unorganized/under skilled AVers is/are currently capable of consistently chasing off an ADS. There. They've won. The ADS cannot help the team the the full extent it's capable and has most likely become a hindrance to its team by essentially removing the player from battle. The end goal should not always be to kill the ADS, but to incapacitate it and prevent it from doing what it wants to do, and current AV is capable of doing that.
Now, if you want to kill a well flown, well fitted ADS outright, grab an IAFG or two, maybe add a WBFG to the mix (I really hate those). Get some high leveled Min commandos or even ADV min assaults with WSLs. Better yet, if you want a near guaranteed kill, get all that plus a rail Incubus to chase it down when it's at low health. Teamwork makes the dream work after all.
A single AVer should not have a high chance of killing an ADS because 1) that would skew balance for nearly all other vehicles (DSs and LAVs especially) and 2) would be imbalanced if 2-3 actually worked together. |
Echo 1991
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
423
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 20:50:00 -
[68] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:^Lol @ ADS is OP
...an ADS will rarely score above what a proto stomper would (and cost 3-4x as much, even without a proto turret)... The question is... how many ADSes do they LOSE? How many matches do you see ADSes not dying at all? Right now, the only way to lose an ADS is incompetence. They can easily escape a situation where they're threatened and quickly repair and return to the fight. Their cooldowns are short, so they can repeat this behavior over and over. I've said this before and I'll say it a million times more: A single decent AVer/ few unorganized/under skilled AVers is/are currently capable of consistently chasing off an ADS. There. They've won. The ADS cannot help the team the the full extent it's capable and has most likely become a hindrance to its team by essentially removing the player from battle. The end goal should not always be to kill the ADS, but to incapacitate it and prevent it from doing what it wants to do, and current AV is capable of doing that. Now, if you want to kill a well flown, well fitted ADS outright, grab an IAFG or two, maybe add a WBFG to the mix (I really hate those). Get some high leveled Min commandos or even ADV min assaults with WSLs. Better yet, if you want a near guaranteed kill, get all that plus a rail Incubus to chase it down when it's at low health. Teamwork makes the dream work after all. A single AVer should not have a high chance of killing an ADS because 1) that would skew balance for nearly all other vehicles (DSs and LAVs especially) and 2) would be imbalanced if 2-3 actually worked together.
How would it skew balance? A swarm cannot hurt anything other than vehicles and installations so it should do a very good job at destroying vehicles, especially if it is proto. And as long as it takes 2 people to effectively destroy a vehicle at proto level it creates an imbalance. 1 person shouldnt be able to take 2 infantry out of a fight just to get rid of it. |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3300
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 20:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:A single decent AVer/ few unorganized/under skilled AVers is/are currently capable of consistently chasing off an ADS. There. They've won. The ADS cannot help the team the the full extent it's capable and has most likely become a hindrance to its team by essentially removing the player from battle. The end goal should not always be to kill the ADS, but to incapacitate it and prevent it from doing what it wants to do, and current AV is capable of doing that.
This is a hilarious viewpoint. That the ADS should be able to kill the AVer, but the AVer should only be able to 'drive off' the ADS. That's not balance, lol. Your ADS should die just as often as you kill a swarmer trying to kill you.
Echo 1991 wrote:How would it skew balance? A swarm cannot hurt anything other than vehicles and installations so it should do a very good job at destroying vehicles, especially if it is proto. And as long as it takes 2 people to effectively destroy a vehicle at proto level it creates an imbalance. 1 person shouldnt be able to take 2 infantry out of a fight just to get rid of it.
This. Right now vehicles allow a single player to be as powerful as multiple other players. That is broken. A vehicle should only be able to kill infantry players if infantry players can kill vehicles.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
4825
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:06:00 -
[70] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:A single decent AVer/ few unorganized/under skilled AVers is/are currently capable of consistently chasing off an ADS. There. They've won. The ADS cannot help the team the the full extent it's capable and has most likely become a hindrance to its team by essentially removing the player from battle. The end goal should not always be to kill the ADS, but to incapacitate it and prevent it from doing what it wants to do, and current AV is capable of doing that. This is a hilarious viewpoint. That the ADS should be able to kill the AVer, but the AVer should only be able to 'drive off' the ADS. That's not balance, lol. Your ADS should die just as often as you kill a swarmer trying to kill you. Echo 1991 wrote:How would it skew balance? A swarm cannot hurt anything other than vehicles and installations so it should do a very good job at destroying vehicles, especially if it is proto. And as long as it takes 2 people to effectively destroy a vehicle at proto level it creates an imbalance. 1 person shouldnt be able to take 2 infantry out of a fight just to get rid of it. This. Right now vehicles allow a single player to be as powerful as multiple other players. That is broken. A vehicle should only be able to kill infantry players if infantry players can kill vehicles.
It is balance, though. The ADS costs more than the AV.
Why should the AV be able to kill the ADS when he isn't doing anything nearly as difficult or costly?
There is an ISK commitment value to consider here, as well as a size/power fantasy difference. You can't put them on even footing or the concept of vehicles because irrelevant. Much like tanks are irrelevant.
If you make ADS cheaper, then I can see them being taken down more easily by AV. But they have to be a lot cheaper. |
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2030
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:11:00 -
[71] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:A single decent AVer/ few unorganized/under skilled AVers is/are currently capable of consistently chasing off an ADS. There. They've won. The ADS cannot help the team the the full extent it's capable and has most likely become a hindrance to its team by essentially removing the player from battle. The end goal should not always be to kill the ADS, but to incapacitate it and prevent it from doing what it wants to do, and current AV is capable of doing that. This is a hilarious viewpoint. That the ADS should be able to kill the AVer, but the AVer should only be able to 'drive off' the ADS. That's not balance, lol. Your ADS should die just as often as you kill a swarmer trying to kill you. Echo 1991 wrote:How would it skew balance? A swarm cannot hurt anything other than vehicles and installations so it should do a very good job at destroying vehicles, especially if it is proto. And as long as it takes 2 people to effectively destroy a vehicle at proto level it creates an imbalance. 1 person shouldnt be able to take 2 infantry out of a fight just to get rid of it. This. Right now vehicles allow a single player to be as powerful as multiple other players. That is broken. A vehicle should only be able to kill infantry players if infantry players can kill vehicles.
Wow, disrespectful and a bad debater...
My >30k ISK, lvl3 CRB Min Assault, that I have killed and driven off every vehicle in the game with multiple times, should easily kill my >500k, 18m SP ADS I've spent countless hours and ISK into perfecting?
Give me one logical, reasonable reason why you think this is balanced.
This is why I'm not a huge fan of "Popularity contests." |
Atiim
11977
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:21:00 -
[72] - Quote
It would be balanced because that same AVer is at a higher risk than the ADS.
At any point in time, the AVer can be killed by a Cloaked Scout, HMG Sentinel, Assault with a Conventional Rifle, and just about everything barring itself (to certain extents) with little to no recourse or ability to fight back, die to his/her focus being completely on the ADS.
An ADS Pilot on the other hand, can choose to disengage the moment a threat of any kind arrives, regardless of what they may be focusing on (in the vast majority of scenarios). They can also choose when and where to engage their target, while the AVer's engagement against an ADS is limited to when & where the ADS Pilot chooses to be.
More risk = More reward.
@Vulpes - You'd think someone who's corpmate got elected would appreciate the CPM's existsance.
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3308
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:21:00 -
[73] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:It is balance, though. The ADS costs more than the AV.
ADS price is not high enough to justify infinite KDR. And cost isn't a big balance thing when you only need to buy one.
That's not even entering into the point that ISK balance in the game is so horribly off, that balancing by ISK investment is a bad idea.
One player should be able to kill one player.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
4825
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:23:00 -
[74] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:It is balance, though. The ADS costs more than the AV. ADS price is not high enough to justify infinite KDR. And cost isn't a big balance thing when you only need to buy one.
It's not infinite KDR. I kill ADS all the time. It simply requires one extra person shooting at it.
I don't know why this is such a difficult thing for the Dust community. |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3308
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:24:00 -
[75] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:My >30k ISK, lvl3 CRB Min Assault, that I have killed and driven off every vehicle in the game with multiple times, should easily kill my >500k, 18m SP ADS I've spent countless hours and ISK into perfecting?
No amount of investment of time or ISK should allow you to make the game nearly unplayable for other players, and be a constant harassment that is never at threat of death yourself. Games don't work that way. Or at least, they shouldn't.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3308
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:25:00 -
[76] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:It's not infinite KDR. I kill ADS all the time. It simply requires one extra person shooting at it.
I don't know why this is such a difficult thing for the Dust community.
Why do you believe your class should be inherently twice as powerful as everyone else? And if your class is twice as powerful as everyone else, why would anyone play any other class?
That's the very definition of imbalance.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
4825
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote: That's not even entering into the point that ISK balance in the game is so horribly off, that balancing by ISK investment is a bad idea.
One player should be able to kill one player.
So you want ISK to be a pointless number that means nothing.
Yea, okay. You need to be removed from office. |
Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
4825
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:It's not infinite KDR. I kill ADS all the time. It simply requires one extra person shooting at it.
I don't know why this is such a difficult thing for the Dust community. Why do you believe your class should be inherently twice as powerful as everyone else? And if your class is twice as powerful as everyone else, why would anyone play any other class? That's the very definition of imbalance.
Because it costs more. Cost is supposed to have a value, dumbass. |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3309
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:30:00 -
[79] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:So you want ISK to be a pointless number that means nothing.
No, it already IS a pointless number that means nothing. Have you seen Nyain San's wallet? Should they simply be allowed to win every match by default based on the size of their massive cash pile? Or should they have to fight for their victories?
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Yea, okay. You need to be removed from office.
I don't have an office. I have a cubicle.
(You do realize that CPM is not a position of power or part of a government, or whatever, right?)
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
4825
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 23:07:00 -
[80] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:
No, it already IS a pointless number that means nothing. Have you seen Nyain San's wallet? Should they simply be allowed to win every match by default based on the size of their massive cash pile? Or should they have to fight for their victories?
That's called compounding an error.
You see one problem and want to solve it by making another problem. This, in turn, makes YOU a problem.
If it were up to you the game wouldn't even have a market, in which case you could be playing literally any other game and having a better time. Why the hell do you even play Dust? |
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Smoky Fingers
Red Star.
EoN.
441
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 23:12:00 -
[81] - Quote
Getting derprammed is the ds equivalent of getting cloakedscout in your face. Dealwiddit
Playing RL
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Elaina Everdark
Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2014.09.09 02:03:00 -
[82] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:^Lol @ ADS is OP
Please, the Flaylock way back when was more OP than the ADS has ever been close to (skill stacking uncounted). In an average match, an ADS will rarely score above what a proto stomper would (and cost 3-4x as much, even without a proto turret), and even less if there is actually decent AV on the field.
A more accurate term would be "useful." They're "useful" for clearing the tanks that everyone was crying about for the past few months. They're "useful" for clearing rooftops, uplink spam, etc., the very backbone of most ground-holding strategies.
It is a high SP, high player-skill intensive role that has unique benefits to any team that can field one. And even then, they can be thwarted by a single AVer that has any idea what they're doing.
"useful" for clearing out every open space as well....
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling,
but rising every time we fall"
~Confucius
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2779
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 06:26:00 -
[83] - Quote
I'm curios how many kills people think an ADS get in a match. I play with lots of them. I very very rarely see anything above 20. The average well performing ADS was 15 kills, most hung around 7 to 10. I recorded every match with an enemy ADS in a PUB to get my numbers. They also rarely placed above position 5 on the scoreboard. I'm sure people remember the time one got 30 kills. But how many remember the time it got 4?
I see there is disagreement about ISK as part of the balance process. Are there others who think ISK should be completely ignored when looking at an assets performance? Should we balance on KDR alone?
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3339
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 06:28:00 -
[84] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:If it were up to you the game wouldn't even have a market, in which case you could be playing literally any other game and having a better time. Why the hell do you even play Dust?
You can come up with all sorts of weird conclusions when you're fictionalizing my position entirely. ;)
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
4827
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 07:35:00 -
[85] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:I'm curios how many kills people think an ADS get in a match. I play with lots of them. I very very rarely see anything above 20. The average well performing ADS was 15 kills, most hung around 7 to 10. I recorded every match with an enemy ADS in a PUB to get my numbers. They also rarely placed above position 5 on the scoreboard. I'm sure people remember the time one got 30 kills. But how many remember the time it got 4?
I see there is disagreement about ISK as part of the balance process. Are there others who think ISK should be completely ignored when looking at an assets performance? Should we balance on KDR alone?
Let me ask you this, if ISK has no certifiable factor in anything then why should it exist?
If it doesn't exist, why connect Dust with Eve? Why not have a completely different game with no market? Because at that point, it's exactly what you're getting. |
Scar Scrilla
378
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 14:33:00 -
[86] - Quote
What about DS that can't kill ppl with their missiles/rail etc and hence road kill infantry? That's kinda a **** tactic too and even carried out by one of the community's "best" DS pilots (recently happened in a PC on the rings above B-letter)
He couldn't kill me with his missiles, shields and armor of his DS down so he kamikaze'd me with his DS. Scrub
"Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses"
" ... or grab a shotgun and REs." - UN1TE
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
982
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 17:28:00 -
[87] - Quote
look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol.
aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns.
your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build.
define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping.
all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced.
this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry
individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots.
people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward.
theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare.
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
365
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 20:58:00 -
[88] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:I'm curios how many kills people think an ADS get in a match. I play with lots of them. I very very rarely see anything above 20. The average well performing ADS was 15 kills, most hung around 7 to 10. I recorded every match with an enemy ADS in a PUB to get my numbers. They also rarely placed above position 5 on the scoreboard. I'm sure people remember the time one got 30 kills. But how many remember the time it got 4?
I see there is disagreement about ISK as part of the balance process. Are there others who think ISK should be completely ignored when looking at an assets performance? Should we balance on KDR alone?
It's not about what people think, but what they experienced.
Me friends like to use Incubus with one gunner seat from time to time, and in public matches they are able to get 40-50 kills total, and of cures top final scoreboards places(pilot and gunner).
There are several reasons 'why' they are so effective on battlefield, but the main one is that they do not have comparable enemy in opposite team - I blame matchmaking mechanic - life would be much simple in public matches if on every ADS pilot there was Heavy Forg Gunner or equival counter to ADS with the same SP amount.
ISK discussion is pointless in times 'right before open market'.
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3354
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 21:33:00 -
[89] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol.
aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns.
your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build.
define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping.
all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced.
this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry
individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots.
people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward.
theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare.
Pretty much. I've said it before, I'll say it again: You will never balance vehicles in a way that makes vehicle users happy. Because they've never experience balance, and they don't know what it feels like.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2043
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 21:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol.
aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns.
your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build.
define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping.
all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced.
this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry
individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots.
people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward.
theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare. Pretty much. I've said it before, I'll say it again: You will never balance vehicles in a way that makes vehicle users happy. Because they've never experience balance, and they don't know what it feels like.
Actually it's because psychos like you want a <50k, <500kSP suit to be able to kill my >500k, >17mSP ADS just as easily as I can kill it (taken from the horse's mouth, btw).
That's not balance, that butthurt.
I'm all for balance, believe me. I don't want this game to be boring as an ADS pilot. There's nothing more thrilling than dueling a forge gunner or breaking up a group of swarmers; I want a challenge. But you just want to make me an unusable ISK sink.
Take a hint from your colleague Judge Rhadamanthus on how to present yourself and your opinions/fixes. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments but he's respectful and actually gives data and clear analysis to back up his points. You just run around screaming nerf this, nerf that and anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. I'd love to hear what your ideas and opinions are but you've never made them clear. |
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
987
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 01:18:00 -
[91] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol.
aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns.
your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build.
define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping.
all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced.
this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry
individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots.
people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward.
theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare. Pretty much. I've said it before, I'll say it again: You will never balance vehicles in a way that makes vehicle users happy. Because they've never experience balance, and they don't know what it feels like. Actually it's because psychos like you want a <50k, <500kSP suit to be able to kill my >500k, >17mSP ADS just as easily as I can kill it (taken from the horse's mouth, btw). That's not balance, that butthurt. I'm all for balance, believe me. I don't want this game to be boring as an ADS pilot. There's nothing more thrilling than dueling a forge gunner or breaking up a group of swarmers; I want a challenge. But you just want to make me an unusable ISK sink. Take a hint from your colleague Judge Rhadamanthus on how to present yourself and your opinions/fixes. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments but he's respectful and actually gives data and clear analysis to back up his points. You just run around screaming nerf this, nerf that and anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. I'd love to hear what your ideas and opinions are but you've never made them clear.
making basic swarm > basic vehicles isnt a hard concept to understand. remove the advanced and proto or add advanced and proto vehicles which isnt happening because new content isnt happening.
the best idea is a straight up rollback to 1.6 when av was able to kill to stand toe to toe with vehicles.
a person with maxed skills in every light weapon, every medium suit, and every suit upgrade with a 200k suit cant touch an ads. thats what your paying money for. selective immunity. if you had read my post you would understand that.
a solo aver needs to be able to kill a solo vehicle pilot with any av equipment.
be it a grenade, swarm launcher or forge. in the same way any infantry can kill an aver while hes preoccupied with a vehicle and the same way any tank or dropship can kill an infantry player WITH COMPLETE IMMUNITY TO ALL DAMAGE
again not that hard a concept. its called balance the vehicle community just has selective hearing and chooses to ignore the truth. battlefield runs fine with tanks and helicopters getting 2-3 hit kills from av weapons.
not counting mines and c4 etc. yet player skill will let a good tanker or pilot run around a bf map for an hour and never get killed once, then a good engineer comes and clears them all out. this whole mentality that your spending more should make you counterless is delusional.
the ads trade off is being unkillable by everything except av and the pilots own ability to not crash.
when your in a 30k-200k dropsuit you dont get that ability. anything can kill you at any moment and you dont have any protection but your wit. thats a fair tradeoff.
yes a <50k isk suit <500ksp suit should be able to knock you out of the sky because your negating the other 15 players.
lets do math. 15 proto suits? say 150-200 a piece? thats a 2m isk to 3m isk and potentially hundreds of millions of sp that literally cant touch you. thats more than fair when someone in a 30k tank or 30k dropship can sit right in front of me with no sp needed and be completely immune to anything i can do. by that logic why should your 500k 17m sp drop ship be better than an entire team? lets make it like 1.6 where assault rifles can eat up tanks again if you want that kind balance. im fine with that too. make it a free for all. everyone can kill everyone and let natural order and survival of the fittest be the balance formula where player skill trumps all everytime because everythings on equal footing.
if we keep the current game mechanics we're following a combat triangle
infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry
melee>range>mage>melee
thats how mmo balance works fps or not. thats not pro infantry, its not pro av, its not pro vehicles. its balance. again arguing otherwise proves you want the game to be unbalanced in your favor. you can kill an aver just fine. but he should have a much easier time killing you because the entire reason his role exists is solely to counter and kill you and you alone. when you go into the sky your the prey to av. infantry and bad drivers are your prey, and av is the prey of infantry. i can reiterate it 100 times if youd like but i cant be any clearer and no one can simplify it anymore than that.
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3356
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 01:56:00 -
[92] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Actually it's because psychos like you want a <50k, <500kSP suit to be able to kill my >500k, >17mSP ADS just as easily as I can kill it (taken from the horse's mouth, btw).
That's not balance, that butthurt.
I'm all for balance, believe me. I don't want this game to be boring as an ADS pilot. There's nothing more thrilling than dueling a forge gunner or breaking up a group of swarmers; I want a challenge. But you just want to make me an unusable ISK sink.
Take a hint from your colleague Judge Rhadamanthus on how to present yourself and your opinions/fixes. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments but he's respectful and actually gives data and clear analysis to back up his points. You just run around screaming nerf this, nerf that and anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. I'd love to hear what your ideas and opinions are but you've never made them clear.
My ideas and opinions... I've actually posted them like fifty times before, but I didn't have a pretty white tag on them that made people read my opinions. o_O Here you go:
Your amount of SP and ISK should be important. But nowhere near as important as to make you immune to threat by another player. If we have to make something require less SP, fine. If we have to make something require less ISK, fine. I really don't care if dropships are 10k ISK. I really don't. Like, all the SP and ISK in the world should only make you like 10-15% "better" than another player, IMHO. So yes, a 50k fit should be able to kill a 500k fit if the player in the 50k fit is better.
It's about player experience and balance. You are a single player. Another single player should be a threat to you. If their class is designed to be a threat to you (AV), but isn't, then that's a problem. In the case that their sole role is to take you down (swarms), they should be darn good at it. If a player is designed to kill you, and can't kill you, their class is useless, and their player experience is garbage.
There is a sixteen versus sixteen player limit in this game. It sucks, but it's true. Now, players vary in skill, but ideally, the skill across teams should*** be somewhat balanced. That means we can rule out player skill as a factor in balancing. 16. Versus 16. Each player has to equal one player for a balanced match. A tanker running with three times the HP, doing three times the damage, and immune to three fourths of the weapons in the game, is as good as three or four other players. That means, if one side has a tank, than the other does not, the effective balance is 18 players versus 16. With two tanks, 20 versus 16. This is not fair.
There are two ways to correct this imbalance: Either make a tank roughly equivalent to an infantry suit, or make a tank require three users to be effective. (I love the latter. I would like to make tanks incredible beasts that require teamwork to effectively use.) Standard dropships already do this: You need a second person if you want a gunner, and a third person if you want two guns. I am happy with normal dropship buffs, and I frequently recommend them. ADSes, on the other hand, allow a single player for the cost of roughly two dropsuits, to be equivalent to those two players in combat, which is pretty OP. I'd be happy to nerf the price into the ground, in exchange for making the ADS not invincible.
Believe it or not, I do not want vehicles to be useless. I have a lot of ideas for how to make vehicles useful, without being overpowered. Vehicle users generally do not like any of those ideas, because they make vehicles less powerful than they are now. Because yes, they're overpowered. There are actually vehicle nerfs I have stood against, because I thought they were bad ideas. I like to joke about nerfing everything, because I'm mildly humorous to some people. I talk about nerfing tanks and ADSes though, because tanks and ADSes are broken classes that allow players way too much power.
As for Judge, Judge is incredibly well-composed on the forums. I am not. Sometimes I troll, sometimes I'm helpful, and sometimes I'm blunt honest. If you're not sure which I'm being, ask. Judge is often better at the numbers than me, but I think he's horribly biased in favor of ADSes. We have extensive back and forths on the balance on Skype. I think generally it's a good idea that there are CPM members who disagree with each other, because it helps present CCP multiple points of view.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Ghural
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
311
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 02:06:00 -
[93] - Quote
I think part of the problem is the absence of a working radar in the dropship that allows players to ram without warning. |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3359
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 05:31:00 -
[94] - Quote
Ghural wrote:I think part of the problem is the absence of a working radar in the dropship that allows players to ram without warning.
I really don't get any warning on the ground before I'm killed by an ADS either.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4186
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 12:01:00 -
[95] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but doesn`t it take more piloting skill to hit a moving dropship than it takes to avoid one?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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al nize mk2
No Skillz inc.
130
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 15:07:00 -
[96] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
And also quite funny...
GÇ£All that I know most surely about morality and obligations I owe to football.GÇ¥
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
825
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 15:31:00 -
[97] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
jet ramming is legitimate play as its wasteful but effective.. but i can see that it will decline once delta is released with its SWARM UPDATE.
also me and some other dude were trying to ram each other.. i ended up doing a 0-point loop-de-loop and we both crashed, lived, had a tango, then GG mailed.
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 1 Forum Pariah
What ever happened to buffing Logi eHP in Delta?!
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
825
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Posted - 2014.09.10 15:34:00 -
[98] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Ghural wrote:I think part of the problem is the absence of a working radar in the dropship that allows players to ram without warning. I really don't get any warning on the ground before I'm killed by an ADS either.
especially from a railgun ADS from 200 meters high
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 1 Forum Pariah
What ever happened to buffing Logi eHP in Delta?!
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TechMechMeds
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
5541
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Posted - 2014.09.10 15:35:00 -
[99] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but doesn`t it take more piloting skill to hit a moving dropship than it takes to avoid one?
I'm no great pilot but teabagging any ds with my ds when they are busy is as easy as pie and the same goes for ramming.
It would take skill if ds pilots had an extra set of eyes to actually see you coming or a permanent scanner.
My hometown beat Manchester united.
Git gud man utd.
4-0
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Broonfondle Majikthies
Dogs of War Gaming
1300
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Posted - 2014.09.10 15:43:00 -
[100] - Quote
I have no problem as a general tactic or feature.
My issue is that it's rising popularity is a direct result of poor air to air combat mechanics.
Why spend 4 mins flying in circles doing largely nothing to eachother when you can just ram the thing and get it over with.
I remember when the DS buffs were first introduced and another pilot tried to shoot me down - I ignored him and he got bored and wondered off.
"The air smells damp and oppressive, like a wet nun"
"Why am I talking to a lightbulb? Illuminate me"
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Bahirae Serugiusu
Vendetta Reactionary Force
34
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Posted - 2014.09.10 17:41:00 -
[101] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
Hey weird question but does bringing out a Forge Gun to deal with heavies since they are nearly immune (probably till the next Hotfix) to pretty much everything but Forge Guns and tanks and to those on the lower end Plasma cannons sound like the threat=response? |
Jaran Vilktar
The Gauldar Tactical Alliance
8
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Posted - 2014.09.10 21:50:00 -
[102] - Quote
Tech De Ra wrote:If a helicopter collides with another helicopter, bad things will happen
If a dropship rams another dropship, amusing things will happen
i see no issue, it turned collision from a catastrophe into a fun meta
I still remember the time I chased an Incubus around a match with my turbo-gorgon attempting to ram him for so long that he got desperate and ended up crashing in the red line... AFTER he crashed against his OWN MCC attempting to make some trick turns to shake me off. He left the match sometime after. It was a good day. 
DUST 514 Is the first FPS I played actively for the PS3 and is my favorite FPS to this very day. :)
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Taurion Bruni
D3ATH CARD
258
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Posted - 2014.09.10 22:22:00 -
[103] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
personally, Id be ok with it as long as it was a constant mechanic
something like having to hit the Ads in the weak points (thrusters/nose) to insta kill it, otherwise the Ads should go free.
when some people say you can see it coming, thats not true, as an DS from the sky won't show up on radar until the last second, and the sound of the DS is masked by your own.
it should be a viable tactic, but it should also be hard enough to do so that it is no longer the primary AV for dropships
Python Pilot // Minmatar Assault
Adapt or Die!
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Bradric Banewolf
D3ATH CARD
327
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Posted - 2014.09.10 22:37:00 -
[104] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic
I'm actually agreeing with zindorak?!?! Stranger things have happened?!
I also agree with the op on this one. I don't fly, but I as a director I know how much they cost. Yes, it's a tactic to ram the lightly armored ones, but both should go down in flames! I've seen armored dropships survive head on collisions?! Some noob who refuses to spec into AV shouldn't be able to grab a militia dropship and take out a 500k dropship?!
On the flipside! Pilots need to know that these guys are out here, and build they're ships for protection, defense, and regen! Too many 9 you are rocking guns that punch far above your own weight, and scream foul play when you get air swiped?! You also cry about AV a ton because you just lost those proto cannons that you couldn't truly fit and protect yourself at the same time?! You can stay in the air longer with better protection, ground support, and comms.
"Anybody order chaos?"
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Soulja Ghostface
MCDUSTDONALDS
Top Men.
2734
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Posted - 2014.09.10 23:49:00 -
[105] - Quote
Bradric Banewolf wrote:Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic I'm actually agreeing with zindorak?!?! Stranger things have happened?! I also agree with the op on this one. I don't fly, but I as a director I know how much they cost. Yes, it's a tactic to ram the lightly armored ones, but both should go down in flames! I've seen armored dropships survive head on collisions?! Some noob who refuses to spec into AV shouldn't be able to grab a militia dropship and take out a 500k dropship?! On the flipside! Pilots need to know that these guys are out here, and build they're ships for protection, defense, and regen! Too many 9 you are rocking guns that punch far above your own weight, and scream foul play when you get air swiped?! You also cry about AV a ton because you just lost those proto cannons that you couldn't truly fit and protect yourself at the same time?! You can stay in the air longer with better protection, ground support, and comms.
This is why most pilots are angry. No matter how much they tank their ships. They take upwards of 33 thousand damage when rammed by a Myron/Viper
Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault
Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
146
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Posted - 2014.09.12 02:36:00 -
[106] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:I'm curios how many kills people think an ADS get in a match. I play with lots of them. I very very rarely see anything above 20. The average well performing ADS was 15 kills, most hung around 7 to 10. I recorded every match with an enemy ADS in a PUB to get my numbers. They also rarely placed above position 5 on the scoreboard. I'm sure people remember the time one got 30 kills. But how many remember the time it got 4?
I see there is disagreement about ISK as part of the balance process. Are there others who think ISK should be completely ignored when looking at an assets performance? Should we balance on KDR alone?
7 - 10 seems to be the average from what I have been seeing lately as well. I think pricing kinda goes together with the dropship as it stands now. With the upcoming changes, I am concerned for new and old pilots falling short from being balanced with swarms despite the stricken turn radius and speed increase. There isn't any indicators to really warn pilots when lock ons have been achieved. I was thinking would CCP be interested in buffing the passive scan radius on dropships in more of a sphere coverage, suitable for arial vehicles? This could probably help pilots be better warned to those who suicide other dropships from the sky, giving them a better chance of survival. I don't see CCP taking this from the game of suicide ships due to how clone suicide is encouraged in the Eve Online tutorial for the advance military profession, but we can at least give those players who are on the receiving end of those trying to crash into them a fighting chance, within acceptable means. I do hope at some point CCP will take into consideration that the best weapon against something that lock-on is an indicator of something locking on to you. So far for me dropship vehicles have this futuristic/WWII feel in relation to not having an advanced alert systems, speed, height and indicator. Yet having a vehicle that uses pure thrust capabilities. When the swarm launcher was introduced as a weapon that advanced, dropships and any other arial vehicle needed alert indicators. Well that's my thoughts on it. Would like to hear your opinion and others as well.
Quote:Soraya Xel I, on the other hand, massively support dropship ramming as a tactic, and will oppose any attempt to nerf or break the capability, particularly as long as ADSes are OP as crud. Most OP gameplay style in the game, and crying about the one edge case threat you can face. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
As a CPM with access to CCP you are showing a very one sided opinion based on the unknown. This really concerns me for many reasons. Just because you or someone you know is killed by it does not make it over powered. As an mediator you should be more open to the fact that you are also the voice of pilots in the same respect. Most pilots, if you wish to admit to it or not, are actually pretty good for a great number of reasons from lack game balance mechanics. I cancelled my subscription to Eve after the announcement of Legion. My sole purpose for going back to Eve a second time was for the fact that Dust would work in tandem with it. Now that it's gone I have dust and perhaps legion. Your ill informed opinion about dropships concerns me if you are there to speak for everyone who plays this game. As a player I feel you do not have those who use dropships on your agenda. I would hate to leave dust if the game mechanics on dropships become back to how bad they were in Chromosome. But I can find other similar gaming outlets.
Always Grey Skies
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Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
755
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Posted - 2014.09.12 04:11:00 -
[107] - Quote
Taurion Bruni wrote:Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
personally, Id be ok with it as long as it was a constant mechanic something like having to hit the Ads in the weak points (thrusters/nose) to insta kill it, otherwise the Ads should go free. when some people say you can see it coming, thats not true, as an DS from the sky won't show up on radar until the last second, and the sound of the DS is masked by your own. it should be a viable tactic, but it should also be hard enough to do so that it is no longer the primary AV for dropships
What other AV options are there for dropships again? Forge Gun Heavies and...? |
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