DUST Search - @Judge Radamanthus. Do you support jetramming?

Auris Lionesse wrote:

look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol.

aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns.
your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build.

define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping.
all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced.
this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry

individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots.

people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward.
theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare.

CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.


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Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3292	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:23:00 - [1] - Quote I, on the other hand, massively support dropship ramming as a tactic, and will oppose any attempt to nerf or break the capability, particularly as long as ADSes are OP as crud. Most OP gameplay style in the game, and crying about the one edge case threat you can face. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3298	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:21:00 - [2] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: ^Lol @ ADS is OP ...an ADS will rarely score above what a proto stomper would (and cost 3-4x as much, even without a proto turret)... The question is... how many ADSes do they LOSE? How many matches do you see ADSes not dying at all? Right now, the only way to lose an ADS is incompetence. They can easily escape a situation where they're threatened and quickly repair and return to the fight. Their cooldowns are short, so they can repeat this behavior over and over. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3300	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:56:00 - [3] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: A single decent AVer/ few unorganized/under skilled AVers is/are currently capable of consistently chasing off an ADS. There. They've won. The ADS cannot help the team the the full extent it's capable and has most likely become a hindrance to its team by essentially removing the player from battle. The end goal should not always be to kill the ADS, but to incapacitate it and prevent it from doing what it wants to do, and current AV is capable of doing that. This is a hilarious viewpoint. That the ADS should be able to kill the AVer, but the AVer should only be able to 'drive off' the ADS. That's not balance, lol. Your ADS should die just as often as you kill a swarmer trying to kill you. Echo 1991 wrote: How would it skew balance? A swarm cannot hurt anything other than vehicles and installations so it should do a very good job at destroying vehicles, especially if it is proto. And as long as it takes 2 people to effectively destroy a vehicle at proto level it creates an imbalance. 1 person shouldnt be able to take 2 infantry out of a fight just to get rid of it. This. Right now vehicles allow a single player to be as powerful as multiple other players. That is broken. A vehicle should only be able to kill infantry players if infantry players can kill vehicles. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3308	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:21:00 - [4] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: It is balance, though. The ADS costs more than the AV. ADS price is not high enough to justify infinite KDR. And cost isn't a big balance thing when you only need to buy one. That's not even entering into the point that ISK balance in the game is so horribly off, that balancing by ISK investment is a bad idea. One player should be able to kill one player. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3308	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:24:00 - [5] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: My >30k ISK, lvl3 CRB Min Assault, that I have killed and driven off every vehicle in the game with multiple times, should easily kill my >500k, 18m SP ADS I've spent countless hours and ISK into perfecting? No amount of investment of time or ISK should allow you to make the game nearly unplayable for other players, and be a constant harassment that is never at threat of death yourself. Games don't work that way. Or at least, they shouldn't. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3308	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:25:00 - [6] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: It's not infinite KDR. I kill ADS all the time. It simply requires one extra person shooting at it. I don't know why this is such a difficult thing for the Dust community. Why do you believe your class should be inherently twice as powerful as everyone else? And if your class is twice as powerful as everyone else, why would anyone play any other class? That's the very definition of imbalance. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3309	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:30:00 - [7] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: So you want ISK to be a pointless number that means nothing. No, it already IS a pointless number that means nothing. Have you seen Nyain San's wallet? Should they simply be allowed to win every match by default based on the size of their massive cash pile? Or should they have to fight for their victories? Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Yea, okay. You need to be removed from office. I don't have an office. I have a cubicle. (You do realize that CPM is not a position of power or part of a government, or whatever, right?) CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3339	Posted - 2014.09.09 06:28:00 - [8] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: If it were up to you the game wouldn't even have a market, in which case you could be playing literally any other game and having a better time. Why the hell do you even play Dust? You can come up with all sorts of weird conclusions when you're fictionalizing my position entirely. ;) CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3354	Posted - 2014.09.09 21:33:00 - [9] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol. aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns. your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build. define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping. all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced. this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots. people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward. theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare. Pretty much. I've said it before, I'll say it again: You will never balance vehicles in a way that makes vehicle users happy. Because they've never experience balance, and they don't know what it feels like. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3356	Posted - 2014.09.10 01:56:00 - [10] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Actually it's because psychos like you want a <50k, <500kSP suit to be able to kill my >500k, >17mSP ADS just as easily as I can kill it (taken from the horse's mouth, btw). That's not balance, that butthurt. I'm all for balance, believe me. I don't want this game to be boring as an ADS pilot. There's nothing more thrilling than dueling a forge gunner or breaking up a group of swarmers; I want a challenge. But you just want to make me an unusable ISK sink. Take a hint from your colleague Judge Rhadamanthus on how to present yourself and your opinions/fixes. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments but he's respectful and actually gives data and clear analysis to back up his points. You just run around screaming nerf this, nerf that and anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. I'd love to hear what your ideas and opinions are but you've never made them clear. My ideas and opinions... I've actually posted them like fifty times before, but I didn't have a pretty white tag on them that made people read my opinions. o_O Here you go: Your amount of SP and ISK should be important. But nowhere near as important as to make you immune to threat by another player. If we have to make something require less SP, fine. If we have to make something require less ISK, fine. I really don't care if dropships are 10k ISK. I really don't. Like, all the SP and ISK in the world should only make you like 10-15% "better" than another player, IMHO. So yes, a 50k fit should be able to kill a 500k fit if the player in the 50k fit is better. It's about player experience and balance. You are a single player. Another single player should be a threat to you. If their class is designed to be a threat to you (AV), but isn't, then that's a problem. In the case that their sole role is to take you down (swarms), they should be darn good at it. If a player is designed to kill you, and can't kill you, their class is useless, and their player experience is garbage. There is a sixteen versus sixteen player limit in this game. It sucks, but it's true. Now, players vary in skill, but ideally, the skill across teams should*** be somewhat balanced. That means we can rule out player skill as a factor in balancing. 16. Versus 16. Each player has to equal one player for a balanced match. A tanker running with three times the HP, doing three times the damage, and immune to three fourths of the weapons in the game, is as good as three or four other players. That means, if one side has a tank, than the other does not, the effective balance is 18 players versus 16. With two tanks, 20 versus 16. This is not fair. There are two ways to correct this imbalance: Either make a tank roughly equivalent to an infantry suit, or make a tank require three users to be effective. (I love the latter. I would like to make tanks incredible beasts that require teamwork to effectively use.) Standard dropships already do this: You need a second person if you want a gunner, and a third person if you want two guns. I am happy with normal dropship buffs, and I frequently recommend them. ADSes, on the other hand, allow a single player for the cost of roughly two dropsuits, to be equivalent to those two players in combat, which is pretty OP. I'd be happy to nerf the price into the ground, in exchange for making the ADS not invincible. Believe it or not, I do not want vehicles to be useless. I have a lot of ideas for how to make vehicles useful, without being overpowered. Vehicle users generally do not like any of those ideas, because they make vehicles less powerful than they are now. Because yes, they're overpowered. There are actually vehicle nerfs I have stood against, because I thought they were bad ideas. I like to joke about nerfing everything, because I'm mildly humorous to some people. I talk about nerfing tanks and ADSes though, because tanks and ADSes are broken classes that allow players way too much power. As for Judge, Judge is incredibly well-composed on the forums. I am not. Sometimes I troll, sometimes I'm helpful, and sometimes I'm blunt honest. If you're not sure which I'm being, ask. Judge is often better at the numbers than me, but I think he's horribly biased in favor of ADSes. We have extensive back and forths on the balance on Skype. I think generally it's a good idea that there are CPM members who disagree with each other, because it helps present CCP multiple points of view. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3359	Posted - 2014.09.10 05:31:00 - [11] - Quote Ghural wrote: I think part of the problem is the absence of a working radar in the dropship that allows players to ram without warning. I really don't get any warning on the ground before I'm killed by an ADS either. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.