DUST Search - @Judge Radamanthus. Do you support jetramming?

Soraya Xel wrote:

Auris Lionesse wrote:

look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol.

aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns.
your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build.

define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping.
all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced.
this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry

individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots.

people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward.
theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare.

Pretty much. I've said it before, I'll say it again: You will never balance vehicles in a way that makes vehicle users happy. Because they've never experience balance, and they don't know what it feels like.


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Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2008	Posted - 2014.09.06 03:25:00 - [1] - Quote Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Every time you bring an ADS out, it's as good as lost. If you're fighting a fair fight, one of you are doing it wrong. CCP doesn't care as long as it's not game breaking. They're probably laughing at you, I know I am. -Professional ADS pilot since 1.6
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2022	Posted - 2014.09.07 18:50:00 - [2] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way. The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here. If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards. Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. There may not be good examples in Dust, but in Eve there is an excellent example in Catalyst ganking. Using 10m worth of catalysts (destroyers with a long of firepower) can easily kill a +200m Exhumer even in the security of highsec. The difference being that the ADS can actually fight back. They are similar in that to prevent them, you need to be paying attention to your surroundings, either watching D-scan and local or paying attention to what the enemy calls in or listening for another dropship's engines.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2023	Posted - 2014.09.07 22:20:00 - [3] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Even a proto suit caught unaware or just unlucky can be killed by a MLT weapon. ISK shouldn't be the deciding factor in this sort of thing. And ISK is not the deciding factor as I posted. A militia DS can OHK a Proto ADS. This is not the case in any other area of DUST that has balance. Militia should not OHK proto. In the Sky, on the ground. It is not balanced. Would you mind explaining how you'd fix ADS ramming?
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2026	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:48:00 - [4] - Quote ^Lol @ ADS is OP Please, the Flaylock way back when was more OP than the ADS has ever been close to (skill stacking uncounted). In an average match, an ADS will rarely score above what a proto stomper would (and cost 3-4x as much, even without a proto turret), and even less if there is actually decent AV on the field. A more accurate term would be "useful." They're "useful" for clearing the tanks that everyone was crying about for the past few months. They're "useful" for clearing rooftops, uplink spam, etc., the very backbone of most ground-holding strategies. It is a high SP, high player-skill intensive role that has unique benefits to any team that can field one. And even then, they can be thwarted by a single AVer that has any idea what they're doing.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2027	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:40:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: ^Lol @ ADS is OP ...an ADS will rarely score above what a proto stomper would (and cost 3-4x as much, even without a proto turret)... The question is... how many ADSes do they LOSE? How many matches do you see ADSes not dying at all? Right now, the only way to lose an ADS is incompetence. They can easily escape a situation where they're threatened and quickly repair and return to the fight. Their cooldowns are short, so they can repeat this behavior over and over. I've said this before and I'll say it a million times more: A single decent AVer/ few unorganized/under skilled AVers is/are currently capable of consistently chasing off an ADS. There. They've won. The ADS cannot help the team the the full extent it's capable and has most likely become a hindrance to its team by essentially removing the player from battle. The end goal should not always be to kill the ADS, but to incapacitate it and prevent it from doing what it wants to do, and current AV is capable of doing that. Now, if you want to kill a well flown, well fitted ADS outright, grab an IAFG or two, maybe add a WBFG to the mix (I really hate those). Get some high leveled Min commandos or even ADV min assaults with WSLs. Better yet, if you want a near guaranteed kill, get all that plus a rail Incubus to chase it down when it's at low health. Teamwork makes the dream work after all. A single AVer should not have a high chance of killing an ADS because 1) that would skew balance for nearly all other vehicles (DSs and LAVs especially) and 2) would be imbalanced if 2-3 actually worked together.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2030	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:11:00 - [6] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: A single decent AVer/ few unorganized/under skilled AVers is/are currently capable of consistently chasing off an ADS. There. They've won. The ADS cannot help the team the the full extent it's capable and has most likely become a hindrance to its team by essentially removing the player from battle. The end goal should not always be to kill the ADS, but to incapacitate it and prevent it from doing what it wants to do, and current AV is capable of doing that. This is a hilarious viewpoint. That the ADS should be able to kill the AVer, but the AVer should only be able to 'drive off' the ADS. That's not balance, lol. Your ADS should die just as often as you kill a swarmer trying to kill you. Echo 1991 wrote: How would it skew balance? A swarm cannot hurt anything other than vehicles and installations so it should do a very good job at destroying vehicles, especially if it is proto. And as long as it takes 2 people to effectively destroy a vehicle at proto level it creates an imbalance. 1 person shouldnt be able to take 2 infantry out of a fight just to get rid of it. This. Right now vehicles allow a single player to be as powerful as multiple other players. That is broken. A vehicle should only be able to kill infantry players if infantry players can kill vehicles. Wow, disrespectful and a bad debater... My >30k ISK, lvl3 CRB Min Assault, that I have killed and driven off every vehicle in the game with multiple times, should easily kill my >500k, 18m SP ADS I've spent countless hours and ISK into perfecting? Give me one logical, reasonable reason why you think this is balanced. This is why I'm not a huge fan of "Popularity contests."
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2043	Posted - 2014.09.09 21:44:00 - [7] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol. aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns. your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build. define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping. all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced. this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots. people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward. theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare. Pretty much. I've said it before, I'll say it again: You will never balance vehicles in a way that makes vehicle users happy. Because they've never experience balance, and they don't know what it feels like. Actually it's because psychos like you want a <50k, <500kSP suit to be able to kill my >500k, >17mSP ADS just as easily as I can kill it (taken from the horse's mouth, btw). That's not balance, that butthurt. I'm all for balance, believe me. I don't want this game to be boring as an ADS pilot. There's nothing more thrilling than dueling a forge gunner or breaking up a group of swarmers; I want a challenge. But you just want to make me an unusable ISK sink. Take a hint from your colleague Judge Rhadamanthus on how to present yourself and your opinions/fixes. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments but he's respectful and actually gives data and clear analysis to back up his points. You just run around screaming nerf this, nerf that and anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. I'd love to hear what your ideas and opinions are but you've never made them clear.