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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
987
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Posted - 2014.09.10 01:18:00 -
[91] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:look at all these people trying to defend dropships where youre literally invulnerable to all but 2 weapons in the game. forges and swarms and you can outrun swarms lol.
aver can be killed by anything. dropship can be killed by 1 specific build. forgeguns.
your paying money to negate the 99% of other builds and you just have to contend with the one build.
define av? anti vehicle. its sole purpose is to beat vehicles. it should always trump any vehicle in the equivlant grouping.
all basic swarms, forges, and grenades should beat dropships, ads, and tanks. thats it. thats balanced.
this is suppsoed to be an mmofps yes? theres your combat triangle. infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry
individual skill is the only factor. learn to dodge 1 fat guy with a forgefun and you have complete control over the air and your unkillable. the aver has to dodge 14 other players all of which can kill him while hes trying to get one shot off on you which isnt even a gurantee because of how fast dropships are, buildings, lock on time, distance to target, or charging shots.
people defending ads's dont want balance. thats all there is too it. they want no risk only reward.
theyre the redline sniper of vehicle warfare. Pretty much. I've said it before, I'll say it again: You will never balance vehicles in a way that makes vehicle users happy. Because they've never experience balance, and they don't know what it feels like. Actually it's because psychos like you want a <50k, <500kSP suit to be able to kill my >500k, >17mSP ADS just as easily as I can kill it (taken from the horse's mouth, btw). That's not balance, that butthurt. I'm all for balance, believe me. I don't want this game to be boring as an ADS pilot. There's nothing more thrilling than dueling a forge gunner or breaking up a group of swarmers; I want a challenge. But you just want to make me an unusable ISK sink. Take a hint from your colleague Judge Rhadamanthus on how to present yourself and your opinions/fixes. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments but he's respectful and actually gives data and clear analysis to back up his points. You just run around screaming nerf this, nerf that and anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. I'd love to hear what your ideas and opinions are but you've never made them clear.
making basic swarm > basic vehicles isnt a hard concept to understand. remove the advanced and proto or add advanced and proto vehicles which isnt happening because new content isnt happening.
the best idea is a straight up rollback to 1.6 when av was able to kill to stand toe to toe with vehicles.
a person with maxed skills in every light weapon, every medium suit, and every suit upgrade with a 200k suit cant touch an ads. thats what your paying money for. selective immunity. if you had read my post you would understand that.
a solo aver needs to be able to kill a solo vehicle pilot with any av equipment.
be it a grenade, swarm launcher or forge. in the same way any infantry can kill an aver while hes preoccupied with a vehicle and the same way any tank or dropship can kill an infantry player WITH COMPLETE IMMUNITY TO ALL DAMAGE
again not that hard a concept. its called balance the vehicle community just has selective hearing and chooses to ignore the truth. battlefield runs fine with tanks and helicopters getting 2-3 hit kills from av weapons.
not counting mines and c4 etc. yet player skill will let a good tanker or pilot run around a bf map for an hour and never get killed once, then a good engineer comes and clears them all out. this whole mentality that your spending more should make you counterless is delusional.
the ads trade off is being unkillable by everything except av and the pilots own ability to not crash.
when your in a 30k-200k dropsuit you dont get that ability. anything can kill you at any moment and you dont have any protection but your wit. thats a fair tradeoff.
yes a <50k isk suit <500ksp suit should be able to knock you out of the sky because your negating the other 15 players.
lets do math. 15 proto suits? say 150-200 a piece? thats a 2m isk to 3m isk and potentially hundreds of millions of sp that literally cant touch you. thats more than fair when someone in a 30k tank or 30k dropship can sit right in front of me with no sp needed and be completely immune to anything i can do. by that logic why should your 500k 17m sp drop ship be better than an entire team? lets make it like 1.6 where assault rifles can eat up tanks again if you want that kind balance. im fine with that too. make it a free for all. everyone can kill everyone and let natural order and survival of the fittest be the balance formula where player skill trumps all everytime because everythings on equal footing.
if we keep the current game mechanics we're following a combat triangle
infantry>aver>vehicle>infantry
melee>range>mage>melee
thats how mmo balance works fps or not. thats not pro infantry, its not pro av, its not pro vehicles. its balance. again arguing otherwise proves you want the game to be unbalanced in your favor. you can kill an aver just fine. but he should have a much easier time killing you because the entire reason his role exists is solely to counter and kill you and you alone. when you go into the sky your the prey to av. infantry and bad drivers are your prey, and av is the prey of infantry. i can reiterate it 100 times if youd like but i cant be any clearer and no one can simplify it anymore than that.
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3356
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Posted - 2014.09.10 01:56:00 -
[92] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Actually it's because psychos like you want a <50k, <500kSP suit to be able to kill my >500k, >17mSP ADS just as easily as I can kill it (taken from the horse's mouth, btw).
That's not balance, that butthurt.
I'm all for balance, believe me. I don't want this game to be boring as an ADS pilot. There's nothing more thrilling than dueling a forge gunner or breaking up a group of swarmers; I want a challenge. But you just want to make me an unusable ISK sink.
Take a hint from your colleague Judge Rhadamanthus on how to present yourself and your opinions/fixes. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments but he's respectful and actually gives data and clear analysis to back up his points. You just run around screaming nerf this, nerf that and anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. I'd love to hear what your ideas and opinions are but you've never made them clear.
My ideas and opinions... I've actually posted them like fifty times before, but I didn't have a pretty white tag on them that made people read my opinions. o_O Here you go:
Your amount of SP and ISK should be important. But nowhere near as important as to make you immune to threat by another player. If we have to make something require less SP, fine. If we have to make something require less ISK, fine. I really don't care if dropships are 10k ISK. I really don't. Like, all the SP and ISK in the world should only make you like 10-15% "better" than another player, IMHO. So yes, a 50k fit should be able to kill a 500k fit if the player in the 50k fit is better.
It's about player experience and balance. You are a single player. Another single player should be a threat to you. If their class is designed to be a threat to you (AV), but isn't, then that's a problem. In the case that their sole role is to take you down (swarms), they should be darn good at it. If a player is designed to kill you, and can't kill you, their class is useless, and their player experience is garbage.
There is a sixteen versus sixteen player limit in this game. It sucks, but it's true. Now, players vary in skill, but ideally, the skill across teams should*** be somewhat balanced. That means we can rule out player skill as a factor in balancing. 16. Versus 16. Each player has to equal one player for a balanced match. A tanker running with three times the HP, doing three times the damage, and immune to three fourths of the weapons in the game, is as good as three or four other players. That means, if one side has a tank, than the other does not, the effective balance is 18 players versus 16. With two tanks, 20 versus 16. This is not fair.
There are two ways to correct this imbalance: Either make a tank roughly equivalent to an infantry suit, or make a tank require three users to be effective. (I love the latter. I would like to make tanks incredible beasts that require teamwork to effectively use.) Standard dropships already do this: You need a second person if you want a gunner, and a third person if you want two guns. I am happy with normal dropship buffs, and I frequently recommend them. ADSes, on the other hand, allow a single player for the cost of roughly two dropsuits, to be equivalent to those two players in combat, which is pretty OP. I'd be happy to nerf the price into the ground, in exchange for making the ADS not invincible.
Believe it or not, I do not want vehicles to be useless. I have a lot of ideas for how to make vehicles useful, without being overpowered. Vehicle users generally do not like any of those ideas, because they make vehicles less powerful than they are now. Because yes, they're overpowered. There are actually vehicle nerfs I have stood against, because I thought they were bad ideas. I like to joke about nerfing everything, because I'm mildly humorous to some people. I talk about nerfing tanks and ADSes though, because tanks and ADSes are broken classes that allow players way too much power.
As for Judge, Judge is incredibly well-composed on the forums. I am not. Sometimes I troll, sometimes I'm helpful, and sometimes I'm blunt honest. If you're not sure which I'm being, ask. Judge is often better at the numbers than me, but I think he's horribly biased in favor of ADSes. We have extensive back and forths on the balance on Skype. I think generally it's a good idea that there are CPM members who disagree with each other, because it helps present CCP multiple points of view.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Ghural
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
311
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Posted - 2014.09.10 02:06:00 -
[93] - Quote
I think part of the problem is the absence of a working radar in the dropship that allows players to ram without warning. |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3359
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Posted - 2014.09.10 05:31:00 -
[94] - Quote
Ghural wrote:I think part of the problem is the absence of a working radar in the dropship that allows players to ram without warning.
I really don't get any warning on the ground before I'm killed by an ADS either.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4186
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Posted - 2014.09.10 12:01:00 -
[95] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but doesn`t it take more piloting skill to hit a moving dropship than it takes to avoid one?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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al nize mk2
No Skillz inc.
130
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Posted - 2014.09.10 15:07:00 -
[96] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
And also quite funny... 
GÇ£All that I know most surely about morality and obligations I owe to football.GÇ¥
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
825
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Posted - 2014.09.10 15:31:00 -
[97] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
jet ramming is legitimate play as its wasteful but effective.. but i can see that it will decline once delta is released with its SWARM UPDATE.
also me and some other dude were trying to ram each other.. i ended up doing a 0-point loop-de-loop and we both crashed, lived, had a tango, then GG mailed.
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 1 Forum Pariah
What ever happened to buffing Logi eHP in Delta?!
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
825
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Posted - 2014.09.10 15:34:00 -
[98] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Ghural wrote:I think part of the problem is the absence of a working radar in the dropship that allows players to ram without warning. I really don't get any warning on the ground before I'm killed by an ADS either.
especially from a railgun ADS from 200 meters high
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 1 Forum Pariah
What ever happened to buffing Logi eHP in Delta?!
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TechMechMeds
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
5541
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Posted - 2014.09.10 15:35:00 -
[99] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but doesn`t it take more piloting skill to hit a moving dropship than it takes to avoid one?
I'm no great pilot but teabagging any ds with my ds when they are busy is as easy as pie and the same goes for ramming.
It would take skill if ds pilots had an extra set of eyes to actually see you coming or a permanent scanner.
My hometown beat Manchester united.
Git gud man utd.
4-0
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Broonfondle Majikthies
Dogs of War Gaming
1300
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Posted - 2014.09.10 15:43:00 -
[100] - Quote
I have no problem as a general tactic or feature.
My issue is that it's rising popularity is a direct result of poor air to air combat mechanics.
Why spend 4 mins flying in circles doing largely nothing to eachother when you can just ram the thing and get it over with.
I remember when the DS buffs were first introduced and another pilot tried to shoot me down - I ignored him and he got bored and wondered off.
"The air smells damp and oppressive, like a wet nun"
"Why am I talking to a lightbulb? Illuminate me"
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Bahirae Serugiusu
Vendetta Reactionary Force
34
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Posted - 2014.09.10 17:41:00 -
[101] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:i do NOT support it. Why? well, emergent game play is good. it brings new tactics to a battle and changes the status quo. Any game play has to be balanced. Emergent tactics like bomb trucks, or ramming dropships; or non emergant such as militia RR against Proto heavy have to be balanced in the same way.
The ramming dropship is a valid tactic but it by-passes balance. A cheap and disposable zero sp item causes as much damage as a high SP and expensive item. Two people clash, yet the damage done by militia is as much as the damage done by proto. This model does not exist elsewhere in DUST so should not exist here.
If I see a player in a proto suit and a gun killing everyone on the objective, I don't think "i better go get my militia suit and deal with this guy" the response had to scale with the threat. Yes i should be able to take him on, but not on equal terms. A militia DS hits a top level ADS for more damage. That is backwards.
Hey weird question but does bringing out a Forge Gun to deal with heavies since they are nearly immune (probably till the next Hotfix) to pretty much everything but Forge Guns and tanks and to those on the lower end Plasma cannons sound like the threat=response? |
Jaran Vilktar
The Gauldar Tactical Alliance
8
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Posted - 2014.09.10 21:50:00 -
[102] - Quote
Tech De Ra wrote:If a helicopter collides with another helicopter, bad things will happen
If a dropship rams another dropship, amusing things will happen
i see no issue, it turned collision from a catastrophe into a fun meta
 I still remember the time I chased an Incubus around a match with my turbo-gorgon attempting to ram him for so long that he got desperate and ended up crashing in the red line... AFTER he crashed against his OWN MCC attempting to make some trick turns to shake me off. He left the match sometime after. It was a good day. 
DUST 514 Is the first FPS I played actively for the PS3 and is my favorite FPS to this very day. :)
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Taurion Bruni
D3ATH CARD
258
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Posted - 2014.09.10 22:22:00 -
[103] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
personally, Id be ok with it as long as it was a constant mechanic
something like having to hit the Ads in the weak points (thrusters/nose) to insta kill it, otherwise the Ads should go free.
when some people say you can see it coming, thats not true, as an DS from the sky won't show up on radar until the last second, and the sound of the DS is masked by your own.
it should be a viable tactic, but it should also be hard enough to do so that it is no longer the primary AV for dropships
Python Pilot // Minmatar Assault
Adapt or Die!
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Bradric Banewolf
D3ATH CARD
327
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Posted - 2014.09.10 22:37:00 -
[104] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic
I'm actually agreeing with zindorak?!?! Stranger things have happened?!
I also agree with the op on this one. I don't fly, but I as a director I know how much they cost. Yes, it's a tactic to ram the lightly armored ones, but both should go down in flames! I've seen armored dropships survive head on collisions?! Some noob who refuses to spec into AV shouldn't be able to grab a militia dropship and take out a 500k dropship?!
On the flipside! Pilots need to know that these guys are out here, and build they're ships for protection, defense, and regen! Too many 9 you are rocking guns that punch far above your own weight, and scream foul play when you get air swiped?! You also cry about AV a ton because you just lost those proto cannons that you couldn't truly fit and protect yourself at the same time?! You can stay in the air longer with better protection, ground support, and comms.
"Anybody order chaos?"
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Soulja Ghostface
MCDUSTDONALDS
Top Men.
2734
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Posted - 2014.09.10 23:49:00 -
[105] - Quote
Bradric Banewolf wrote:Zindorak wrote:Its like engaging multiple reds with a heavy (ADS) and scrubby ol' SG scout (scrubby ramming DS) comes in and backstabs you its stupid. I think people should actually use the AV that was given to us not some cheap tactic I'm actually agreeing with zindorak?!?! Stranger things have happened?! I also agree with the op on this one. I don't fly, but I as a director I know how much they cost. Yes, it's a tactic to ram the lightly armored ones, but both should go down in flames! I've seen armored dropships survive head on collisions?! Some noob who refuses to spec into AV shouldn't be able to grab a militia dropship and take out a 500k dropship?! On the flipside! Pilots need to know that these guys are out here, and build they're ships for protection, defense, and regen! Too many 9 you are rocking guns that punch far above your own weight, and scream foul play when you get air swiped?! You also cry about AV a ton because you just lost those proto cannons that you couldn't truly fit and protect yourself at the same time?! You can stay in the air longer with better protection, ground support, and comms.
This is why most pilots are angry. No matter how much they tank their ships. They take upwards of 33 thousand damage when rammed by a Myron/Viper
Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault
Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
146
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Posted - 2014.09.12 02:36:00 -
[106] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:I'm curios how many kills people think an ADS get in a match. I play with lots of them. I very very rarely see anything above 20. The average well performing ADS was 15 kills, most hung around 7 to 10. I recorded every match with an enemy ADS in a PUB to get my numbers. They also rarely placed above position 5 on the scoreboard. I'm sure people remember the time one got 30 kills. But how many remember the time it got 4?
I see there is disagreement about ISK as part of the balance process. Are there others who think ISK should be completely ignored when looking at an assets performance? Should we balance on KDR alone?
7 - 10 seems to be the average from what I have been seeing lately as well. I think pricing kinda goes together with the dropship as it stands now. With the upcoming changes, I am concerned for new and old pilots falling short from being balanced with swarms despite the stricken turn radius and speed increase. There isn't any indicators to really warn pilots when lock ons have been achieved. I was thinking would CCP be interested in buffing the passive scan radius on dropships in more of a sphere coverage, suitable for arial vehicles? This could probably help pilots be better warned to those who suicide other dropships from the sky, giving them a better chance of survival. I don't see CCP taking this from the game of suicide ships due to how clone suicide is encouraged in the Eve Online tutorial for the advance military profession, but we can at least give those players who are on the receiving end of those trying to crash into them a fighting chance, within acceptable means. I do hope at some point CCP will take into consideration that the best weapon against something that lock-on is an indicator of something locking on to you. So far for me dropship vehicles have this futuristic/WWII feel in relation to not having an advanced alert systems, speed, height and indicator. Yet having a vehicle that uses pure thrust capabilities. When the swarm launcher was introduced as a weapon that advanced, dropships and any other arial vehicle needed alert indicators. Well that's my thoughts on it. Would like to hear your opinion and others as well.
Quote:Soraya Xel I, on the other hand, massively support dropship ramming as a tactic, and will oppose any attempt to nerf or break the capability, particularly as long as ADSes are OP as crud. Most OP gameplay style in the game, and crying about the one edge case threat you can face. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
As a CPM with access to CCP you are showing a very one sided opinion based on the unknown. This really concerns me for many reasons. Just because you or someone you know is killed by it does not make it over powered. As an mediator you should be more open to the fact that you are also the voice of pilots in the same respect. Most pilots, if you wish to admit to it or not, are actually pretty good for a great number of reasons from lack game balance mechanics. I cancelled my subscription to Eve after the announcement of Legion. My sole purpose for going back to Eve a second time was for the fact that Dust would work in tandem with it. Now that it's gone I have dust and perhaps legion. Your ill informed opinion about dropships concerns me if you are there to speak for everyone who plays this game. As a player I feel you do not have those who use dropships on your agenda. I would hate to leave dust if the game mechanics on dropships become back to how bad they were in Chromosome. But I can find other similar gaming outlets.
Always Grey Skies
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Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
755
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Posted - 2014.09.12 04:11:00 -
[107] - Quote
Taurion Bruni wrote:Soulja Ghostface wrote:I will sleep easier knowing/thinking at least one cpm thinks this is bullocks.
Though I probably will collapse at my desk and wake up to not losing any sleep
I stayed up all night trying to catch some sleep git the traps set and everything.
personally, Id be ok with it as long as it was a constant mechanic something like having to hit the Ads in the weak points (thrusters/nose) to insta kill it, otherwise the Ads should go free. when some people say you can see it coming, thats not true, as an DS from the sky won't show up on radar until the last second, and the sound of the DS is masked by your own. it should be a viable tactic, but it should also be hard enough to do so that it is no longer the primary AV for dropships
What other AV options are there for dropships again? Forge Gun Heavies and...? |
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