DUST Search - ADS=unescapable, uncounterable death for tanks

Ryme Intrinseca wrote:

Played on my tank alt for a couple of hours. Think I'm beginning to understand how it is that tankers are frustrated even though they seem to be able to dominate the battlefield. AV and enemy tanks put up a decent fight but I managed to keep my tank in one piece (killed six tanks in one battle). I only died twice, both times to the same ADS pilot (in different battles). I couldn't really see how I could do anything differently - once they're above you (which is instantly) you're toast, hardeners just extend the agony of being pecked to death Sad

The only 'counters' I came up with were:

1) Stay near the redline so you have a half chance of escaping.
2) Use cheaper tank (lower tier turret or militia hull) so when an ADS inevitably kills you it doesn't cost so much.

Obviously neither of those things are actually counters, they're basically just ways of accepting defeat. If ADSes were a specific anti-tank weapon this wouldn't be so bad, but they terrorize infantry just as much.

The only thing that is even slightly effective against an ADS is a forge gun, and even then the pilot can choose to escape if they wish. There is nothing (apart from another dropship) that is a true counter to an ADS, i.e. a mortal threat even to a competent pilot. And in any case a forge gunner is giving up a lot to offer that minor threat. They are sitting ducks for any other infantry. An ADS isn't a sitting duck for anything, it dominates almost everything and even has a good chance against its supposed counter.

How to fix this? For that kind of power, an ADS should have SOME vulnerabilities. Obviously a reduction in ADS HP is one option, so AV can counter more effectively. An increase to large railgun range and railgun modifier power would be another possibility, so ADSes couldn't hover indefinitely without risk. At any rate, something should be done. I only have 200 kills on my tank alt and usually play as a scout, so I die very rarely to ADSes (low profile+cloak=ADS don't see me). So it doesn't really affect me personally. But it is a glaring imbalance in what is otherwise a pretty balanced game now.

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Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1551	Posted - 2014.08.18 11:53:00 - [1] - Quote Played on my tank alt for a couple of hours. Think I'm beginning to understand how it is that tankers are frustrated even though they seem to be able to dominate the battlefield. AV and enemy tanks put up a decent fight but I managed to keep my tank in one piece (killed six tanks in one battle). I only died twice, both times to the same ADS pilot (in different battles). I couldn't really see how I could do anything differently - once they're above you (which is instantly) you're toast, hardeners just extend the agony of being pecked to death The only 'counters' I came up with were: 1) Stay near the redline so you have a half chance of escaping. 2) Use cheaper tank (lower tier turret or militia hull) so when an ADS inevitably kills you it doesn't cost so much. Obviously neither of those things are actually counters, they're basically just ways of accepting defeat. If ADSes were a specific anti-tank weapon this wouldn't be so bad, but they terrorize infantry just as much. The only thing that is even slightly effective against an ADS is a forge gun, and even then the pilot can choose to escape if they wish. There is nothing (apart from another dropship) that is a true counter to an ADS, i.e. a mortal threat even to a competent pilot. And in any case a forge gunner is giving up a lot to offer that minor threat. They are sitting ducks for any other infantry. An ADS isn't a sitting duck for anything, it dominates almost everything and even has a good chance against its supposed counter. How to fix this? For that kind of power, an ADS should have SOME vulnerabilities. Obviously a reduction in ADS HP is one option, so AV can counter more effectively. An increase to large railgun range and railgun modifier power would be another possibility, so ADSes couldn't hover indefinitely without risk. At any rate, something should be done. I only have 200 kills on my tank alt and usually play as a scout, so I die very rarely to ADSes (low profile+cloak=ADS don't see me). So it doesn't really affect me personally. But it is a glaring imbalance in what is otherwise a pretty balanced game now.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2749	Posted - 2014.08.18 11:58:00 - [2] - Quote Are you speced into the ADS at all? Do you fly? Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2700	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:05:00 - [3] - Quote Step 1. Mount little turrets on your HAV Step 2. Acquire a friendly forge (or two, the second is optional) Step 3. Harvest tears from DS pilots. PSN: ogamega "Dust is full of communists who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items" LOCK REGIONS
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1552	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:07:00 - [4] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Step 1. Mount little turrets on your HAV Step 2. Acquire a friendly forge (or two, the second is optional) Step 3. Harvest tears from DS pilots. Multiple tank crew should not be required to counter one ADS pilot.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 297	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:08:00 - [5] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Played on my tank alt for a couple of hours. Think I'm beginning to understand how it is that tankers are frustrated even though they seem to be able to dominate the battlefield. AV and enemy tanks put up a decent fight but I managed to keep my tank in one piece (killed six tanks in one battle). I only died twice, both times to the same ADS pilot (in different battles). I couldn't really see how I could do anything differently - once they're above you (which is instantly) you're toast, hardeners just extend the agony of being pecked to death The only 'counters' I came up with were: 1) Stay near the redline so you have a half chance of escaping. 2) Use cheaper tank (lower tier turret or militia hull) so when an ADS inevitably kills you it doesn't cost so much. Obviously neither of those things are actually counters, they're basically just ways of accepting defeat. If ADSes were a specific anti-tank weapon this wouldn't be so bad, but they terrorize infantry just as much. The only thing that is even slightly effective against an ADS is a forge gun, and even then the pilot can choose to escape if they wish. There is nothing (apart from another dropship) that is a true counter to an ADS, i.e. a mortal threat even to a competent pilot. And in any case a forge gunner is giving up a lot to offer that minor threat. They are sitting ducks for any other infantry. An ADS isn't a sitting duck for anything, it dominates almost everything and even has a good chance against its supposed counter. How to fix this? For that kind of power, an ADS should have SOME vulnerabilities. Obviously a reduction in ADS HP is one option, so AV can counter more effectively. An increase to large railgun range and railgun modifier power would be another possibility, so ADSes couldn't hover indefinitely without risk. At any rate, something should be done. I only have 200 kills on my tank alt and usually play as a scout, so I die very rarely to ADSes (low profile+cloak=ADS don't see me). So it doesn't really affect me personally. But it is a glaring imbalance in what is otherwise a pretty balanced game now. I'm quoting this, but I'm buggered if I'm gonna read past the title... I ads and tank... I use a missile tank, I can dupe a pilot into flying low enough by manuevering round objectives and doing the old hit reverse trick, aim up and BAM! you at least scare them off a bit, easy enough to escape to the redzone... If you aren't on your own a top turret can chase them off... Or another tank if you set yourselves far enough apart and keep each other covered. Now if you are however bitching about the ads bonus stacking which allows you to down anything in under a second... Well I'll ***** alongside you. Edit-Well bugger me I read some of it >__< I hate myself... The only counter to a dropship is not just a fecking forge gun, infact swarms>>>>> Forge... Not to mention rammers, or calling in an rdv to hit them, or you know a tank, used with a brain. You sir, are a bad tanker.
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1552	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:11:00 - [6] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Are you speced into the ADS at all? Do you fly? No, not that it is relevant to the issue at hand.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 297	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:12:00 - [7] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Are you speced into the ADS at all? Do you fly? No, not that it is relevant to the issue at hand. No because having the view of both sides would just make your oppinoin a little one sided... Oh wait, nvm it's the other way round... ****. Yes yes, I'll go now, my angry sarcasm is helping no one.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3838	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:14:00 - [8] - Quote OP you used to have a railgun that was able to hit harder, OH less, fire quicker and also have a 600m range until the lolcpm member in the thread got the railgun nerfed so he could hover in safety If it was upto him he would want the railgun removed so you would have 0 defence against an ADS https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1638265#post1638265
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 297	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:17:00 - [9] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: OP you used to have a railgun that was able to hit harder, OH less, fire quicker and also have a 600m range until the lolcpm member in the thread got the railgun nerfed so he could hover in safety If it was upto him he would want the railgun removed so you would have 0 defence against an ADS https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1638265#post1638265 Except it's missiles that fire up, not rails...
Mejt0 Made in Poland... E-R-A 380	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:19:00 - [10] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Are you speced into the ADS at all? Do you fly? Im am. And i can tell that tanker can do nothing to ADS above them, or just to ADS whos waiting for vehicles to destroy. To the point. Incubus with small rail is crazy at AV. Harder to get infiantry. Python/Incubus with missiles will take infiantry in 1-3 shoots and are very strong vs vehicles. Small missiles shouldnt achive similiar dmg to large missiles. Thats all. Once again about countering. If tanker will get inside with IAFG then he can counter ADS to drive away. But when we include AV,other tanks then you wont jump out. Caldari Loyalist Markiplier fan. Got 6815 WP only on wrecking tanks with Ion Cannon.

Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 2057	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:19:00 - [11] - Quote stick a small rail turret on your top gun, swap to it when a red ADS flys over you and pop it out of the sky with OP small rail damage... you can tank more hits then he can so he has to GTFO or be ganked by your tank. what im seeing is that you dont know how to fit your tanks. (doesnt require two people... you just have to understand teh concept of switching seats.) Minmatar is Winmatar
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1553	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:20:00 - [12] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Edit-Well bugger me I read some of it >__< I hate myself... The only counter to a dropship is not just a fecking forge gun, infact swarms>>>>> Forge... Not to mention rammers, or calling in an rdv to hit them, or you know a tank, used with a brain. You sir, are a bad tanker. I don't claim to be great (as I said, I only have 200 kills with my tanker!) but I'm still better than the average pub tanker. Won every tank 1 on 1 in this session, and a few 2 on 1s (I'm the 1). Swarms are a joke against a dropship, you'll be lucky to get a second volley while they're still in range. Ramming is effective but it requires another dropship, and as we know, if the only 'counter' to x is another x, x doesn't really have a counter. RDV works too rarely to be relied upon.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3838	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:20:00 - [13] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: OP you used to have a railgun that was able to hit harder, OH less, fire quicker and also have a 600m range until the lolcpm member in the thread got the railgun nerfed so he could hover in safety If it was upto him he would want the railgun removed so you would have 0 defence against an ADS https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1638265#post1638265 Except it's missiles that fire up, not rails... Missiles require travel time before they even hit you, railgun is near instant
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4225	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:23:00 - [14] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: The only counter to a dropship is not just a fecking forge gun, infact swarms>>>>> Forge. Schwarms superior to Forge against ADS? Pilots crack me up. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1553	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:25:00 - [15] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: stick a small rail turret on your top gun, swap to it when a red ADS flys over you and pop it out of the sky with OP small rail damage... you can tank more hits then he can so he has to GTFO or be ganked by your tank. what im seeing is that you dont know how to fit your tanks. (doesnt require two people... you just have to understand teh concept of switching seats.) This is the best answer so far (though I never said you needed two people... the post I was replying to brought in the 'two people' concept. Even so, you have to make a lot of compromises to your fit to get that small rail in, that will only get used vs. an ADS. And even then, it will never really kill the ADS, just scare them off, so we still await the true counter to the ADS. But still, this isn't a bad defensive idea in the meantime and I'll give it a spin.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11787	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:25:00 - [16] - Quote It's not as easy as it looks. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 543	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:26:00 - [17] - Quote You need some scissors to protect your rock from the all mighty paper plane. OP is a kitten. @JebusMcKing
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1553	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:28:00 - [18] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: You need some scissors to protect your rock from the all mighty paper plane. Except the plane is rock (anti-infantry), paper (anti-tank), and scissors (anti-aircraft) all in one. Balance, Judge Rhadamanthas style.
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 2057	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:28:00 - [19] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: stick a small rail turret on your top gun, swap to it when a red ADS flys over you and pop it out of the sky with OP small rail damage... you can tank more hits then he can so he has to GTFO or be ganked by your tank. what im seeing is that you dont know how to fit your tanks. (doesnt require two people... you just have to understand teh concept of switching seats.) This is the best answer so far (though I never said you needed two people... the post I was replying to brought in the 'two people' concept. Even so, you have to make a lot of compromises to your fit to get that small rail in, that will only get used vs. an ADS. And even then, it will never really kill the ADS, just scare them off, so we still await the true counter to the ADS. But still, this isn't a bad defensive idea in the meantime and I'll give it a spin. if i can kill dropships in a methana, you can kill em with a gunnlogi Minmatar is Winmatar
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 297	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:28:00 - [20] - Quote Right... While they're still in range... I must be forgetting the massive range of the damn small turret, because last time I flew out of range of a swarm, I wasn't able to shoot at the tank or anyone near it... Swarms blow a dropship about and fire quickly... Forge at me and I'm gonna shoot you down before you get your 2nd or 3rd shot, not to mention I can just dodge a few shots so you have to reload, meaning I don't even have to leave the area. Idiots who can't think crack me up : )

Mejt0 Made in Poland... E-R-A 380	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:29:00 - [21] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: stick a small rail turret on your top gun, swap to it when a red ADS flys over you and pop it out of the sky with OP small rail damage... you can tank more hits then he can so he has to GTFO or be ganked by your tank. what im seeing is that you dont know how to fit your tanks. (doesnt require two people... you just have to understand teh concept of switching seats.) 1. Incubis with rail, have more hp than tank and hits 1,5x harder with rails (dmg+rof bonus) 2. Incubus will destroy your tank before you will even get overheat with rail. 3. Tank with small rail (only one person)is bad vs tanks. Caldari Loyalist Markiplier fan. Got 6815 WP only on wrecking tanks with Ion Cannon.
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 2059	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:31:00 - [22] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Right... While they're still in range... I must be forgetting the massive range of the damn small turret, because last time I flew out of range of a swarm, I wasn't able to shoot at the tank or anyone near it... Swarms blow a dropship about and fire quickly... Forge at me and I'm gonna shoot you down before you get your 2nd or 3rd shot, not to mention I can just dodge a few shots so you have to reload, meaning I don't even have to leave the area. Idiots who can't think crack me up : ) i kill them in a methana.... you sir are just bad, there are ready built solutions to your problem in game, and your chosing not to use them. working as intended, not the games fault its yours. if i can do it with an LAV... you can do it in a ******* tank. Minmatar is Winmatar
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11490	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:32:00 - [23] - Quote The Problem Dedicated (and even more-so Non-Dedicated) HAV Pilots have no effective 1:1 counter to competent Assault Dropship pilots that don't involve hiding in the redline. Solutions Content Creation - Introduce an 80GJ Railgun with a higher RoF, but lower damage. This will allow for HAV Pilots to get more than one hit on competent ADS Pilots, while also giving them a better counter against JLAVs. Turret Adjustments - Increase the elevation of Missile Turrets and 80GJ Railguns, making them more effective AV weapons when facing competent pilots. Afterburner Adjustments - Increase the cooldown time of Afterburners. This way a competent ADS Pilot may still evade the area, but s/he'll need to pay attention to it's up/downtime, and won't be able to evade constantly without worry. This will bring it in line with Fuel Injectors. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 2059	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:33:00 - [24] - Quote Atiim wrote: The Problem Dedicated (and even more-so Non-Dedicated) HAV Pilots have no effective 1:1 counter to competent Assault Dropship pilots that don't involve hiding in the redline. Solutions Content Creation - Introduce an 80GJ Railgun with a higher RoF, but lower damage. This will allow for HAV Pilots to get more than one hit on competent ADS Pilots, while also giving them a better counter against JLAVs. Turret Adjustments - Increase the elevation of Missile Turrets and 80GJ Railguns, making them more effective AV weapons when facing competent pilots. Afterburner Adjustments - Increase the cooldown time of Afterburners. This way a competent ADS Pilot may still evade the area, but s/he'll need to pay attention to it's up/downtime, and won't be able to evade constantly without worry. This will bring it in line with Fuel Injectors. Extended Solutions fit a small rail turret to your roof and enjoy the free points of the new flying pinatas Minmatar is Winmatar
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1554	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:36:00 - [25] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Right... While they're still in range... I must be forgetting the massive range of the damn small turret, because last time I flew out of range of a swarm, I wasn't able to shoot at the tank or anyone near it... Swarms blow a dropship about and fire quickly... Forge at me and I'm gonna shoot you down before you get your 2nd or 3rd shot, not to mention I can just dodge a few shots so you have to reload, meaning I don't even have to leave the area. Idiots who can't think crack me up : ) i kill them in a methana.... you sir are just bad, there are ready built solutions to your problem in game, and your chosing not to use them. working as intended, not the games fault its yours. if i can do it with an LAV... you can do it in a ******* tank. I think you think you're replying to the OP (me), but you're not. It's someone else saying all these Derpty Derp things
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11490	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:36:00 - [26] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Extended Solutions fit a small rail turret to your roof and enjoy the free points of the new flying pinatas Damage Mods on a Methana is better. You're harder to hit, can follow him on the map, and even have your turret ready before he get's into range. That, and it's easy to snipe at his weakspot. You can even kill Infantry while you wait too. Switching seats on your tank is just asking to have you HAV stolen by a random blueberry. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 900	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:38:00 - [27] - Quote Roofs, redlines, and unpredictable movement are your friend. As for ADS being un-killable, that's just not true. What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2204	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:39:00 - [28] - Quote While it is not a guaranteed kill, a forge ninja can "juggle" up to 3 ADS. By juggling I mean hit one twice to make him flee, reload, then use a full mag to hammer the other two into running away. Inevitably one of the three WILL screw the pooch and stick around for a second too long, or foul up by activating a shield hardener after you've breached the shields/knocked them to 5%. When dealing with more risk averse ADS pilots one lovetap is enough to make them bug out. If you keep this up continuously (keep that LAV handy to run to a depot to rearm) one of two things WILL happen. 1: The ADS pilot will decide the risk is not worth it and recall the dropship. Mission accomplished. 2: The ADS pilot will get madder and madder until he flips out and tries to fight the forge to the death. This means he has to hover to maintain stable fire on a missile-resistant sentinel who can move while charging or hits for close to 3000 damage per hit. This is not a winning strategy. I have had ADS pilots try to land on me before. TL;DR: best advice is to make friends with a explosion-obsessed forge gunner who has taken the time to max or close to max his gun. They, and the burning need swarm troops have to kill those damn ADS is THE best cover to keep friendly tanks alive.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 298	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:39:00 - [29] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Right... While they're still in range... I must be forgetting the massive range of the damn small turret, because last time I flew out of range of a swarm, I wasn't able to shoot at the tank or anyone near it... Swarms blow a dropship about and fire quickly... Forge at me and I'm gonna shoot you down before you get your 2nd or 3rd shot, not to mention I can just dodge a few shots so you have to reload, meaning I don't even have to leave the area. Idiots who can't think crack me up : ) i kill them in a methana.... you sir are just bad, there are ready built solutions to your problem in game, and your chosing not to use them. working as intended, not the games fault its yours. if i can do it with an LAV... you can do it in a ******* tank. Dude you need to learn to read, we're argueing the same point, lol... I can kill a dropship with a tank, I can kill it with a forge & I can damn well kill it with another dropship.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3970	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:45:00 - [30] - Quote oi tank scrubs how about instead of using a scout suit to bail out of your tank before it explodes you get a heavy suit with a forgegun? If a ADS is bothering you just jump out and start shoting it with a forgegun. See i just solved your problem without thinking longer then 0.1 sec about it. Certain people seriously have the IQ of some 1 who lived in the stone age. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"



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