I think the current Gal assault bonus is wonderful, if the suit itself wasn't so bad for so long people wouldn't be trying to 'fix it' (by making it overpowered) and that all assault bonuses should stay as bonuses that aren't just flat dps increases. I'm all about *performance* related weapon bonuses on assault, mag size, heat reduction, accuracy improvements, kick reductions, reload speeds etc, these are all things that make your guns better without simply going "Nah dude, I get to kill you because my dps is 33% higher than yours and there's nothing you can do about it aside from skill into the same suit I'm in".

I think a lot of people are pre-emptively trying to 'fix' something that isn't actually broken. The bonus is and always has been good on the gal assault, but the suit the bonus was placed on was terrible (like all assaults for a while in comparison to the huge passive suit benefits that scouts had), it's like "what's the point in having +9001% rifle damage on a suit that only has 1hp, moves at 1m a second and has the hitbox of a heavy". If you address the suit itself being bad, the bonus starts to stand on its own.

If we get to a point where all other things being roughly equal, I want people to look at the assault and go "This is the suit I want, because it makes my weapon function *better*" without just looking at damage, that has more or less always been the case for the amarr assault - where the SCR/Laser can be used on other suits but if you want to be the murderking you really want the assault.

My proposal is add kick reduction to the cal assault. That's really all that needs to be done, anything else should either be addressed on the suit stats, or on the weapons.

I think the current Gal assault bonus is wonderful, if the suit itself wasn't so bad for so long people wouldn't be trying to 'fix it' (by making it overpowered) and that all assault bonuses should stay as bonuses that aren't just flat dps increases. I'm all about *performance* related weapon bonuses on assault, mag size, heat reduction, accuracy improvements, kick reductions, reload speeds etc, these are all things that make your guns better without simply going "Nah dude, I get to kill you because my dps is 33% higher than yours and there's nothing you can do about it aside from skill into the same suit I'm in".

I think a lot of people are pre-emptively trying to 'fix' something that isn't actually broken. The bonus is and always has been good on the gal assault, but the suit the bonus was placed on was terrible (like all assaults for a while in comparison to the huge passive suit benefits that scouts had), it's like "what's the point in having +9001% rifle damage on a suit that only has 1hp, moves at 1m a second and has the hitbox of a heavy". If you address the suit itself being bad, the bonus starts to stand on its own.

If we get to a point where all other things being roughly equal, I want people to look at the assault and go "This is the suit I want, because it makes my weapon function *better*" without just looking at damage, that has more or less always been the case for the amarr assault - where the SCR/Laser can be used on other suits but if you want to be the murderking you really want the assault.

My proposal is add kick reduction to the cal assault. That's really all that needs to be done, anything else should either be addressed on the suit stats, or on the weapons.

The hipfire reduction is minor, enough so that you can barely see the difference switching between a Galassault and a non-Galassault at a supply depot while you're looking for the crosshair change.

This makes plasma weapons absolutely *insanely* accurate when hipfired. Your proposed bonus of increased range isn't nearly as good as the dispersion / kick reduction when it comes to long range as without the reduction of dispersion even though you may have longer range less of your shots will land on target.

As I commented in the other thread, as an avid user of the rail rifle I don't believe the charge time is long enough for it to really be a true weakness.

However, kick is a problem with it. The charge time makes you unable to feather the trigger like other weapons making kick during ADS at range a real factor. For this reason, I don't think a charge time reduction would help caldari unless it was 20% per level which would make the RR overpowered. Instead a kick reduction would be a more appropriate bonus, at least imo.

Yeah, I think kick is increasingly becoming a very good suggestion. It's a real problem with a lot of rail weaponry. What strength do you think it should be at, though? I don't think 5% is as good as the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses.

EDIT: Edited in kick as a suggestion for the Caldari bonus.

I think you start at 5% and if it turns out its not enough you bump it up from there. Always better to start off underpowered than to create OP FOTM fits right?

True enough.
Although I have difficulty seeing things become FotM because of a lack of recoil, especially as we already have plenty of weapons that already do greater levels of damage than most rail weaponry without the recoil, although at a lower range.

Maybe, but the rail rifle is quite powerful in the right hands. I could easily see a recoil reduction bonus making them too powerful. The SB-39 version is nasty at range ... and 25% is fairly noticeable (from what I remember of the AR Operation bonus in Chromosome). I might not be enough though, we could also explore differing numbers for light and sidearm weapons too. Something along the lines of 5-7% for light and 6-9% for sidearms perhaps?

Starting to get a little convoluted there. I suggested a 7.5%, cumulative 37.5% bonus (as the middle ground between 5 and 10%). I don't think separate light/sidearm rail weapons categories is a necessary complexity, and I'm not sure if it's actually possible given the weapon tagging system and what can be done in a hotfix.

I could see 7% working possibly. I would still suggest starting at 5% and if its not enough bump it to 7% in the next hotfix. I would stay away from decimals myself... only cause I don't trust the UI to handle it properly...

Back to Gal for a sec... I worry about an optimal range bonus on the Gallente assault too. I think it will create the perception that the weapon is only good if its on a Gal Assault suit... which, I believe, is a level of balancing that would hurt the 'create your own fit' style of play this game tries so hard to preserve. Going from 40m to 53m (rounded) optimal is pretty substantial. A buff to effective range gives a similar effect without making it feel like the weapon is unviable otherwise. You still get increased damage at range.

Actually... maybe say a balance between our two suggestions would be best. 3% to Optimal and Effective Range per level perhaps?

That would put it at...

Optimal: 46m
Effective: 81m (rounded)

I like the sound of that a lot myself.

I think you're overestimating the strength of these things.

Firstly, on the 'perception that a weapon is only good if it's on x assault suit' - This may already exist. The Amarr assault bonus has long remained the go-to suit for serious SCR users and the sheer strength of the bonus is almost unrivalled as bonuses go.
I don't think either the recoil or the range bonuses would create that perception around rail or plasma weaponry. The Minmatar bonus to the CR is also very significant - 85 round ACR clips are hugely useful, but they haven't quite become 'use this if you want to use a CR'.

There are already quite strong bonuses for specific weapons in existence. There's a 10% damage bonus (a pretty solid one, as they go) on the commando in addition to a fairly solid reload bonus. The commandos, despite all the advantages they have to specific light weapons, haven't become ubiquitous with them.


As for the bonuses being too strong:
Cutting the bonus down to a 15% range bonus equates to a 6m range increase. Is that seriously worth it? Compared to the strength of the Amarr/Minmatar bonuses, that's trivial.

A cumulative 10% difference between a 25% and a 35% bonus in recoil is going to be unnoticeable by a human user. You won't notice the difference in use. It's already iffy noticing the recoil reduction on the TAR when used with a current Galassault, which has a 25% reduction in recoil. So I think the difference between 5 and 7% per level is really just semantics.

I don't like the idea of the bonuses mitigating the weaknesses of each race's rifle, I think such weaknesses should be inherent in each race's weapons, we should focus a bit more on bonuses that reflect each race's combat philosphies and lets players get immersed in that playstyle a bit more.

I have Rapid Reload 5 and Caldari Assault 5, I like the bonus, although it IS outshined by Commando bonuses.

I often reload my rail rifle while I'm regenerating shields or when people get behind cover to hide and I'm pretty much ready to put more rounds into enemies. Perhaps people would appreciate it more if it were just a bit faster or made more of a difference?

In my caldari commando, which is skilled to 3 at the moment, I LOVE and praise my rapid reload privately very, very, very often because I have enough HP to survive and regenerate. I have enough survivability for it to make a difference.

On a side note, I also think commandos should only get damage bonuses, or weapon handling bonuses, one or the other- not both, but that's a topic for another day.

In comparison to armor tanked suits, shield suits are fragile. I think the issue is that caldari assault players die before they use rapid reload in a straight up confrontation, it's a bit more passive and it's not something that most players utilize DURING an engagement, but with Charlie around the corner... Let's wait and see.



As for the proposed changes... I think doing enough may be too much.

As somebody already pointed out, spool times on rail rifles are negligible- especially if you're using them as intended. Personally, if you do anything less than eliminate spool time, it'll feel a bit pointless to me and even if you do eliminate spool time, people will just start using them in CQC, which is something people are already complaining about...

As for recoil, which I think is much better than a reduction in spool time, I hardly ever find myself struggling with recoil unless I'm in a situation that I feel I shouldn't be in anyways. I find myself strugging with recoil in CQC against heavies or heavily tanked suits in CQC situations or trying to put rounds non-stop into hoardes of enemies.

Do you really want a Caldari Assault on the field that can negate the tactic of popping in and out of cover to pop shots back? Do you want a Caldari Assault that can engage in CQC? Do you want a Caldari Asssalt that can hold R1 and put rounds into people continuously?

Do Caldari Assaults even want reduced spool time and all those things? Should they? Should they be stuck inside a box of "conventional caldari warfare dogma" and strive to be the best at that or do they want to run up to enemies and assault with the rail rifle in CQC? Even if they do, will it work out as well for a shield tanked suit which are weaker anyways? Will the new assault CQC oriented bonuses be pointless if Ratatti makes the rail rifle do less damage at smaller ranges like the laser rifle? If I remember correctly, he is considering it...

These aren't rhetorical questions, I really don't know. I'd like to hear others' thoughts. I don't have numbers, but this is all just "gut feeling" so I wouldn't be surprised if my ideas where ignored and faded into obscurity like usual.

Anyways... I figure that if any race is to get a bonus to rate of fire, it should be minmatar since they're the hit and run types. I'd love to see an assault mass driver even more... assaulty.

Let Amarr keep their bonus, they're "brawlers" as some have said, so they need a bonus for sustaining fire combat in intense combat.

Same for Gallente, many also refer to them as brawlers, who would get bigger magazines, since they're also brawlers, I also think it'd be a nice touch since Gallenteans are more humanitarian-esque and are resultingly better supplied.

Caldari? I have no clue. Rapid reload is nice, but recoil reduction could also work.

I like the direction the consensus is leading to at this point:

Amarr bonus stays the same

Gallente bonus switches to range (not a bad idea since it would make the weapon much more competitive)

Min stays the same

Cal Recoil/dispersion reduction.

All great bonuses that would really give flavor and a buff to the needed assault suits.

Anyone who says the Gal bonus is good as it stands, you know who you are, clearly have not spent enough time playing with the Gal assault. As many others have said the bonus makes absolutely no difference especially when you have sharpshooter 5.

i have been using my ar for a very long time and have both operation5 and sharpshooter 5 on the AR.

when I use any suit with an AR the difference in the dispersion/kick IS very noticible.

sure at operation/sharpshhoter 5 for AR 25% bonus is good...but the gall assault increase that to 50% which is a VERY large increase

on top of that the ion pistol is devastating when on the gall assault. and due to the suits fitting/layout I can purpose it fro what ever I want it to do.

but mostly I perform best with a breach assault rifle. so all I have to say is......LEAVE MY GALL ASSAULT ALONE AND GIVE ME MY CHARLIE BUFF'S.

thank you.

Lets not be petty simply because you disagreed with me (and other informed individuals) when you didn't know what you were talking about and were on a kneejerk weaboo witchhunt. The gallente assault bonus as it is is fine. If the AR's range needs to be adjusted I'd prefer it be adjusted on the rifle itself rather than making it so only one suit is 'viable' with it.

Also, if we're still operating on past grievances, I'd suggest you read the thread again, Ceej Mantis has summarized it fairly well despite you and other 'entitled' individuals sucking the joy out of the idea.