DUST Search - Assault bonuses

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Malleus Malificorum wrote:

If you make the gallente assault bonus something like RoF or even optimal range, it makes it so that the only 'viable' option for using the weapon becomes the assault - which should *never* be the case, those are things that should be addressed on the gun themselves.

Should we remove the commando bonuses? All of them increase DPS. Does that mean they're the only viable option for using that weapon?

No, it doesn't.
There is no problem with the equivalent of 10% more damage.

And if there's a problem with the bonus making weapons much more useful on the suit, perhaps we should remove the Amarr bonus? The bonus is so powerful that almost any serious SCR user goes to that suit.

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Assault bonuses should always be about *performance*, and while you can argue for days about min + amarr assault bonuses neither of them actually alter the DPS of a weapon all they do is allow you to shoot for longer.

And yet they remain massively strong performance enhancers.
If you're so dead set against DPS because somehow on the Galassault, unlike all other damage bonuses, it would make it 'the only viable option', optimal range doesn't increase DPS. It increases performance.

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If you were to add a kick reduction to the caldari, you still have a weapon with the same DPS, but improved performance.
If you keep the current bonuses on the gallente, you have a weapon with the same dps, but improved performance.

Except the current bonuses on the Gallente are so pathetic that it doesn't enhance performance. When has kick ever been a serious concern with the AR or shotgun? The hipfire difference is unnoticeable.

Meanwhile, the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses are immediately noticeable as incredibly strong 'performance enhancers'.

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If the AR itself needs to be tweaked to bring it slightly more in line with other guns that's just fine, If SCR/RR/CR's need to be nerfed, that is also fine, but let's not shoehorn any one suit into outright being the best with them for any reason other than 'performance' or 'handling'.

There are so many suits with strong bonuses to weapons that I genuinely can't understand how you can possibly think a 10% DPS increase would make it 'the only viable option' because it's blatantly not. The Amarr commando has a 10% damage bonus. Does that mean it's the only suit you see laser weaponry used on? No, it doesn't.

Why would this one specific instance of a bonus break everything?


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Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 49	Posted - 2014.08.12 23:11:00 - [1] - Quote I think the current Gal assault bonus is wonderful, if the suit itself wasn't so bad for so long people wouldn't be trying to 'fix it' (by making it overpowered) and that all assault bonuses should stay as bonuses that aren't just flat dps increases. I'm all about performance related weapon bonuses on assault, mag size, heat reduction, accuracy improvements, kick reductions, reload speeds etc, these are all things that make your guns better without simply going "Nah dude, I get to kill you because my dps is 33% higher than yours and there's nothing you can do about it aside from skill into the same suit I'm in". I think a lot of people are pre-emptively trying to 'fix' something that isn't actually broken. The bonus is and always has been good on the gal assault, but the suit the bonus was placed on was terrible (like all assaults for a while in comparison to the huge passive suit benefits that scouts had), it's like "what's the point in having +9001% rifle damage on a suit that only has 1hp, moves at 1m a second and has the hitbox of a heavy". If you address the suit itself being bad, the bonus starts to stand on its own. If we get to a point where all other things being roughly equal, I want people to look at the assault and go "This is the suit I want, because it makes my weapon function better" without just looking at damage, that has more or less always been the case for the amarr assault - where the SCR/Laser can be used on other suits but if you want to be the murderking you really want the assault. My proposal is add kick reduction to the cal assault. That's really all that needs to be done, anything else should either be addressed on the suit stats, or on the weapons.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 49	Posted - 2014.08.12 23:38:00 - [2] - Quote Quote: The hipfire reduction is minor, enough so that you can barely see the difference switching between a Galassault and a non-Galassault at a supply depot while you're looking for the crosshair change. That's because nothing aside from movement/crouching changes crosshair size, I don't believe the game is currently coded in a manner that allows for sliding crosshair adjustments based on accuracy values. I think this has to do with the fact that initially nothing did affect accuracy, the sharpshooter skill affected range and when it was repurposed to affect accuracy there was no coding in the game to allow for sliding values to accuracy and CCP didn't want to expend the effort. Either that or weapons haven't been flagged to have their crosshairs adjust size based on accuracy. So while you may 'feel' that the bonus is negligible, the affects of gal assault 5 + sharpshooter 5 on say an ion pistol (because its the only weapon I can remember the accuracy values of offhand) change it from 46.65, to 46.65 * 1.25 = 58.3125 * 1.25 = 72.890625. The first improvement is about 11.8 points of improvement (making the Ion Pistol comparable to a breach SCP in terms of accuracy IIRC) and the second improvement is a whopping 14.5 points of accuracy. This makes plasma weapons absolutely insanely accurate when hipfired. Your proposed bonus of increased range isn't nearly as good as the dispersion / kick reduction when it comes to long range as without the reduction of dispersion even though you may have longer range less of your shots will land on target.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 54	Posted - 2014.08.13 06:14:00 - [3] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: I like the direction the consensus is leading to at this point: Amarr bonus stays the same Gallente bonus switches to range (not a bad idea since it would make the weapon much more competitive) Min stays the same Cal Recoil/dispersion reduction. All great bonuses that would really give flavor and a buff to the needed assault suits. Anyone who says the Gal bonus is good as it stands, you know who you are, clearly have not spent enough time playing with the Gal assault. As many others have said the bonus makes absolutely no difference especially when you have sharpshooter 5. Lets not be petty simply because you disagreed with me (and other informed individuals) when you didn't know what you were talking about and were on a kneejerk weaboo witchhunt. The gallente assault bonus as it is is fine. If the AR's range needs to be adjusted I'd prefer it be adjusted on the rifle itself rather than making it so only one suit is 'viable' with it. Also, if we're still operating on past grievances, I'd suggest you read the thread again, Ceej Mantis has summarized it fairly well despite you and other 'entitled' individuals sucking the joy out of the idea.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 56	Posted - 2014.08.13 07:03:00 - [4] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: i have been using my ar for a very long time and have both operation5 and sharpshooter 5 on the AR. when I use any suit with an AR the difference in the dispersion/kick IS very noticible. sure at operation/sharpshhoter 5 for AR 25% bonus is good...but the gall assault increase that to 50% which is a VERY large increase on top of that the ion pistol is devastating when on the gall assault. and due to the suits fitting/layout I can purpose it fro what ever I want it to do. but mostly I perform best with a breach assault rifle. so all I have to say is......LEAVE MY GALL ASSAULT ALONE AND GIVE ME MY CHARLIE BUFF'S. thank you. It's a multiplicative bonus, not an additive bonus. [value1] * [skill1] = [value1] * [skill2] = [final value]. It amounts to being a 56.25% bonus.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 67	Posted - 2014.08.15 04:53:00 - [5] - Quote If you make the gallente assault bonus something like RoF or even optimal range, it makes it so that the only 'viable' option for using the weapon becomes the assault - which should never be the case, those are things that should be addressed on the gun themselves. Assault bonuses should always be about performance, and while you can argue for days about min + amarr assault bonuses neither of them actually alter the DPS of a weapon all they do is allow you to shoot for longer. If you were to add a kick reduction to the caldari, you still have a weapon with the same DPS, but improved performance. If you keep the current bonuses on the gallente, you have a weapon with the same dps, but improved performance. If the AR itself needs to be tweaked to bring it slightly more in line with other guns that's just fine, If SCR/RR/CR's need to be nerfed, that is also fine, but let's not shoehorn any one suit into outright being the best with them for any reason other than 'performance' or 'handling'.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 74	Posted - 2014.08.15 23:22:00 - [6] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Malleus Malificorum wrote: If you make the gallente assault bonus something like RoF or even optimal range, it makes it so that the only 'viable' option for using the weapon becomes the assault - which should never be the case, those are things that should be addressed on the gun themselves. Should we remove the commando bonuses? All of them increase DPS. Does that mean they're the only viable option for using that weapon? No, it doesn't. There is no problem with the equivalent of 10% more damage. And if there's a problem with the bonus making weapons much more useful on the suit, perhaps we should remove the Amarr bonus? The bonus is so powerful that almost any serious SCR user goes to that suit. Quote: Assault bonuses should always be about performance, and while you can argue for days about min + amarr assault bonuses neither of them actually alter the DPS of a weapon all they do is allow you to shoot for longer. And yet they remain massively strong performance enhancers. If you're so dead set against DPS because somehow on the Galassault, unlike all other damage bonuses, it would make it 'the only viable option', optimal range doesn't increase DPS. It increases performance. Quote: If you were to add a kick reduction to the caldari, you still have a weapon with the same DPS, but improved performance. If you keep the current bonuses on the gallente, you have a weapon with the same dps, but improved performance. Except the current bonuses on the Gallente are so pathetic that it doesn't enhance performance. When has kick ever been a serious concern with the AR or shotgun? The hipfire difference is unnoticeable. Meanwhile, the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses are immediately noticeable as incredibly strong 'performance enhancers'. Quote: If the AR itself needs to be tweaked to bring it slightly more in line with other guns that's just fine, If SCR/RR/CR's need to be nerfed, that is also fine, but let's not shoehorn any one suit into outright being the best with them for any reason other than 'performance' or 'handling'. There are so many suits with strong bonuses to weapons that I genuinely can't understand how you can possibly think a 10% DPS increase would make it 'the only viable option' because it's blatantly not. The Amarr commando has a 10% damage bonus. Does that mean it's the only suit you see laser weaponry used on? No, it doesn't. Why would this one specific instance of a bonus break everything? Well to address the largest error in your thinking here, for a brief point of time the commando was the only 'viable' AR user, but it still wasn't common due to the obscene passive benefits afforded by the scout suits. Assuming all other things being equal, the vast majority of people will opt to take more dps which means that the commando was the choice. Amarr bonus at this point is kind of apples and oranges, yes the SCR is powerful (and even more so in the hands of an assault) I don't think that's a function of the assault suit being too good, but more the case of the SCR being too good. Optimal range is so touchy of an issue that I'm not even sure how to handle it as a bonus, I don't think there should ever be a suit that gives a bonus to optimal range as I feel it would become the mandatory choice for being competitive - we all saw what happened when the rail rifle was introduced, everyone used until it was nerfed it because range is king. I will agree that the optimal on AR's is probably too low, and the optimal on RR's is probably too high, but if changes need to be made they should be done directly to the weapons. If you're using a variant weapon like the TAC AR, kick and dispersion are serious issues and I find that the gallente assault bonus is perfect for them. I will agree that it can be of slightly less use on standard AR variants, however I know that one of the things that I love about lasers and SCR's is that they don't kick, even a transition from 'negligible' to 'none' can be a rather big but subtle difference. This 'one specific instance' would break things, because both of the bonuses that you want are incredibly frighteningly powerful, and while the amarr/min bonus are both powerful they don't reduce time to kill, but increase the duration that one is able to fight for.