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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3193
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Posted - 2014.08.12 23:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
As I commented in the other thread, as an avid user of the rail rifle I don't believe the charge time is long enough for it to really be a true weakness.
However, kick is a problem with it. The charge time makes you unable to feather the trigger like other weapons making kick during ADS at range a real factor. For this reason, I don't think a charge time reduction would help caldari unless it was 20% per level which would make the RR overpowered. Instead a kick reduction would be a more appropriate bonus, at least imo.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3196
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Posted - 2014.08.13 00:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:As I commented in the other thread, as an avid user of the rail rifle I don't believe the charge time is long enough for it to really be a true weakness.
However, kick is a problem with it. The charge time makes you unable to feather the trigger like other weapons making kick during ADS at range a real factor. For this reason, I don't think a charge time reduction would help caldari unless it was 20% per level which would make the RR overpowered. Instead a kick reduction would be a more appropriate bonus, at least imo. Yeah, I think kick is increasingly becoming a very good suggestion. It's a real problem with a lot of rail weaponry. What strength do you think it should be at, though? I don't think 5% is as good as the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses. EDIT: Edited in kick as a suggestion for the Caldari bonus.
I think you start at 5% and if it turns out its not enough you bump it up from there. Always better to start off underpowered than to create OP FOTM fits right?
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3196
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Posted - 2014.08.13 00:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:
I think you start at 5% and if it turns out its not enough you bump it up from there. Always better to start off underpowered than to create OP FOTM fits right?
True enough. Although I have difficulty seeing things become FotM because of a lack of recoil, especially as we already have plenty of weapons that already do greater levels of damage than most rail weaponry without the recoil, although at a lower range.
Maybe, but the rail rifle is quite powerful in the right hands. I could easily see a recoil reduction bonus making them too powerful. The SB-39 version is nasty at range ... and 25% is fairly noticeable (from what I remember of the AR Operation bonus in Chromosome). I might not be enough though, we could also explore differing numbers for light and sidearm weapons too. Something along the lines of 5-7% for light and 6-9% for sidearms perhaps?
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3196
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Posted - 2014.08.13 00:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:
Maybe, but the rail rifle is quite powerful in the right hands. I could easily see a recoil reduction bonus making them too powerful. The SB-39 version is nasty at range ... and 25% is fairly noticeable (from what I remember of the AR Operation bonus in Chromosome). I might not be enough though, we could also explore differing numbers for light and sidearm weapons too. Something along the lines of 5-7% for light and 6-9% for sidearms perhaps?
Starting to get a little convoluted there. I suggested a 7.5%, cumulative 37.5% bonus (as the middle ground between 5 and 10%). I don't think separate light/sidearm rail weapons categories is a necessary complexity, and I'm not sure if it's actually possible given the weapon tagging system and what can be done in a hotfix.
I could see 7% working possibly. I would still suggest starting at 5% and if its not enough bump it to 7% in the next hotfix. I would stay away from decimals myself... only cause I don't trust the UI to handle it properly...
Back to Gal for a sec... I worry about an optimal range bonus on the Gallente assault too. I think it will create the perception that the weapon is only good if its on a Gal Assault suit... which, I believe, is a level of balancing that would hurt the 'create your own fit' style of play this game tries so hard to preserve. Going from 40m to 53m (rounded) optimal is pretty substantial. A buff to effective range gives a similar effect without making it feel like the weapon is unviable otherwise. You still get increased damage at range.
Actually... maybe say a balance between our two suggestions would be best. 3% to Optimal and Effective Range per level perhaps?
That would put it at...
Optimal: 46m
Effective: 81m (rounded)
I like the sound of that a lot myself.
Edit: Option 4 on the Spreadsheet
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3197
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Posted - 2014.08.13 00:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
I think you're overestimating the strength of these things.
Firstly, on the 'perception that a weapon is only good if it's on x assault suit' - This may already exist. The Amarr assault bonus has long remained the go-to suit for serious SCR users and the sheer strength of the bonus is almost unrivalled as bonuses go.
I don't think either the recoil or the range bonuses would create that perception around rail or plasma weaponry. The Minmatar bonus to the CR is also very significant - 85 round ACR clips are hugely useful, but they haven't quite become 'use this if you want to use a CR'.
There are already quite strong bonuses for specific weapons in existence. There's a 10% damage bonus (a pretty solid one, as they go) on the commando in addition to a fairly solid reload bonus. The commandos, despite all the advantages they have to specific light weapons, haven't become ubiquitous with them.
As for the bonuses being too strong:
Cutting the bonus down to a 15% range bonus equates to a 6m range increase. Is that seriously worth it? Compared to the strength of the Amarr/Minmatar bonuses, that's trivial.
A cumulative 10% difference between a 25% and a 35% bonus in recoil is going to be unnoticeable by a human user. You won't notice the difference in use. It's already iffy noticing the recoil reduction on the TAR when used with a current Galassault, which has a 25% reduction in recoil. So I think the difference between 5 and 7% per level is really just semantics.
Maybe... its hard for me to comment without a playtest. For recoil you might be right, absolutely... Its hard to know.
For sharpshooter, all I can draw on was the Chromosome Sharpshooter at 3% per level and SS Prof at 2% per level. It was so powerful they removed it because it was gamebreaking. However... in the context of multiple light weapons, all of which out range the AR now, it might be a different story.
However, we're nitpicking over numbers, which doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Optimal/Effective range for the Gallente Assault and Kick Reduction for the Caldari Assault would be my suggestion for actually useful racial bonuses. Rattati and Logibro can figure out the numbers that make sense.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
3207
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Posted - 2014.08.15 19:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
So essentially:
Amarr bonus - compensates for overheat, the weakness of laser weaponry
Minmatar bonus - compensates for short clips, the weakness of projectile weaponry
Gallente bonus (if changed to range) - compensates for short range, the weakness of plasma weaponry
Caldari bonus (if changed to recoil) - compensates for high recoil, the weakness of rail weaponry.
Sound reasonable?
I think it sounds very reasonable myself.
I'm all for consistency between races for each class. Something Dust has struggled with for a long while...
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
3208
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Posted - 2014.08.15 20:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Killer's Coys wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
I would honestly prefer to see the range bonus, but I had thought the RoF bonus a popular idea so I included that.
Before this thread was created I hadn't seen much talk about range bonuses, but I'd seen a fair few posts about a RoF bonus.
I feel that a range bonus is in line with the other bonuses because it compensates for the main weakness of the weapon - just like the Amarr bonus compensates for overheat and the Minmatar bonus compensates for short clips. The Caldari bonus also kind of compensates for the slow reload of rail weaponry but it's just a lackluster bonus. Recoil probably suits the Caldari better because their weaponry actually does suffer from recoil.
So essentially:
Amarr bonus - compensates for overheat, the weakness of laser weaponry
Minmatar bonus - compensates for short clips, the weakness of projectile weaponry
Gallente bonus (if changed to range) - compensates for short range, the weakness of plasma weaponry
Caldari bonus (if changed to recoil) - compensates for high recoil, the weakness of rail weaponry.
Sound reasonable?
Finally, I agree with you. I thought it was impossible  Great, so can I make it ? - Caldari : 5% kick reduction to hybrid/rail weapon per level - Gallente : +5% range to hybrid/blaster weapon per level Is it ok for you ?
That is what I recommended as well, but I think Arkena has a good point in that 5% maybe not be enough to matter. Considering how useful laser heat buildup and clip capacity can be for Amarr and Minmatar, those values may need to be bumped to 7-8% before they can be considered an equivalent contribution as the Am and Min bonuses. However, whatever we come up with is largely irrelevant and is more up Rattati/Logibro to determine which numbers will great enough of an impact to make those values an actual contribution to the assault playstyle.
Just throwing your hat in the ring for kick redux and range bonus is what really matters imo.
B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
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