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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1379
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Posted - 2014.06.24 02:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be.
But a stinger causes different amounts of destruction to a helicopter and a tank.
And judge has a point. The vehicle community has been saying this since 1.7 dropped. You can't balance AV on HAVs alone, because that throws off the balance for drop ships and LAVs.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1382
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Posted - 2014.06.24 02:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:True Adamance wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Actually it doesn't. Stingers are designed to take down aircraft, which are far less armored than tanks. Aluminum frame vs 4 inch thick steel plate. I'm not sure if stingers can lock on to tanks. Even if it could it won't go for a tanks weak point like the javelin does, which is designed to take out tanks. Fair call. Would a Javelin have been a better analogy?
But a javelin can't hit air targets. Too fast. There's a reason there are two separate weapon systems. If we could use one for both, we would, it'd be cheaper.
Swarms should be for drop ships. They do reduced damage to tanks. Forges should be for tanks. They do reduced damage to drop ships.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1384
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Posted - 2014.06.24 05:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
So if I eyeballed a Javelin and hit and air target.......what would happen?
The javelin wouldn't fire. It requires a lock before the missile is released. And aircraft are too small and move too much for them to get one. Even if they did manage a lock, the missile is not near maneuverable enough nor fast enough to catch up. Even if the universe conspired against the pilot and made the missile hit, its made to break through thick tank armor. There's a chance the thin aluminum that aircraft use wouldn't be hard enough to set the charge off.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1392
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Posted - 2014.06.24 20:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:True Adamance wrote:
So if I eyeballed a Javelin and hit and air target.......what would happen?
The javelin wouldn't fire. It requires a lock before the missile is released. And aircraft are too small and move too much for them to get one. Even if they did manage a lock, the missile is not near maneuverable enough nor fast enough to catch up. Even if the universe conspired against the pilot and made the missile hit, its made to break through thick tank armor. There's a chance the thin aluminum that aircraft use wouldn't be hard enough to set the charge off. Okay now THIS SPECIAL JAVELIN that does fire (AKA forgegun) hits a helicopter.
This special javelin would pass through, leaving a javelin missile sized hole in the hull. The only problem it would cause is if it hit something vital, like the rotor or the engine. Otherwise, the aircraft would continue on with a small hole in it like nothing happened.
Or, more likely, the missile would bounce off the hull, leaving a nasty dent, and then land on the ground and sit there until something hit it hard enough to go off.
As for the forge gun, I think it should be reworked into a javelin missile type weapon, which is still in line with Caldari philosophy who focus on missiles and supplement with rails. However, I have a workaround for reduced forge damage to drop ships.
"The drop ship has a graviton field that surrounds the entire vehicle, which redirects unguided charges away from the drop ship, turning good hits into glancing blows, or even complete misses. This effectively reduces the damage an unguided projectile can do, although guided munitions can correct for the field and still impact the target."
Now swarms can add to their description: "The missiles are made to detonate right before impact, ripping through light shields and armor. However, this causes problems when going against heavier defenses, as the lack of penetration means it has reduced effectiveness against thicker shields and armor."
Now the two AV weapons have what they are good at.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1393
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 20:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:True Adamance wrote:
So if I eyeballed a Javelin and hit and air target.......what would happen?
The javelin wouldn't fire. It requires a lock before the missile is released. And aircraft are too small and move too much for them to get one. Even if they did manage a lock, the missile is not near maneuverable enough nor fast enough to catch up. Even if the universe conspired against the pilot and made the missile hit, its made to break through thick tank armor. There's a chance the thin aluminum that aircraft use wouldn't be hard enough to set the charge off. Okay now THIS SPECIAL JAVELIN that does fire (AKA forgegun) hits a helicopter. Theoretically a fire ball and twisted scrap, remember this is ordnance designed to bust tanks and aircraft are all generally far far less armored since they need to fly and heavy armor runs counter to that Hell did you know a harrier jet isnt even bullet proof to small arms fire
This is where you are wrong. It would either pass through the hull, or simply bounce off. I'm making up numbers to demonstrate a point.
Let's say a javelin needs 5,000 units of force to set the charge off. Thats fine against heavy tank armor, but aircraft aluminum, which is much thinner, gives way at 1,000 units of force. Thus, the metal will give before the required amount of force can be applied to the charge to set it off, leading to the first situation I told True Adamance about. The second situation, which is more realistic, is because the missile doesn't have enough fuel and speed to pierce through much of anything, relying on the charge to do the piercing for it. If the charge is not detonated, the missile wouldn't have enough force to pierce the hull under its own power, and would thus bounce off, leaving a nasty dent.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1393
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Posted - 2014.06.24 21:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:
Only hes talking in theory and asking what the charge of a javelin would do to an air craft so all your rambling about "it wouldnt go off because" is moot since it doesnt address what hes asking IE how much damage, theoretically, would an anti tank weapon do to an air craft which is significantly weaker
Again, not much. Let's assume the round goes off, by some miracle.
The way javelins pierce armor is by superheating metal, usually copper, and then forcing that liquid metal into a stream, which effectively melts a small hole through the armor. The average penetration depth is 20 inches of armor, and should it pierce all the way through, it will incinerate the tank crew inside.
If it hit an aicraft, anything directly in front of the charge would be melted and useless. About the same damage would be done with the 1st situation with the javelin shaped hole, which is also the more likely scenario if a forge gun hit an aircraft. And again, I gave a workaround for forges doing reduced drop ship damage, letting them be able to be adjusted to tank slaying, and a workaround for swarms doing reduced damage to tanks, letting them be balanced against drop ships.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1393
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Posted - 2014.06.24 21:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Delta 749 wrote:
Only hes talking in theory and asking what the charge of a javelin would do to an air craft so all your rambling about "it wouldnt go off because" is moot since it doesnt address what hes asking IE how much damage, theoretically, would an anti tank weapon do to an air craft which is significantly weaker
Again, not much. Let's assume the round goes off, by some miracle. The way javelins pierce armor is by superheating metal, usually copper, and then forcing that liquid metal into a stream, which effectively melts a small hole through the armor. The average penetration depth is 20 inches of armor, and should it pierce all the way through, it will incinerate the tank crew inside. If it hit an aicraft, anything directly in front of the charge would be melted and useless. About the same damage would be done with the 1st situation with the javelin shaped hole, which is also the more likely scenario if a forge gun hit an aircraft. And again, I gave a workaround for forges doing reduced drop ship damage, letting them be able to be adjusted to tank slaying, and a workaround for swarms doing reduced damage to tanks, letting them be independently balanced against drop ships. While I see your points I do not understand why ADS need more durability when they have the abilities of Mobility, Flight, high DPS, and moderate shielding and armour. In most other FPS the fire power and flight capabilities of a helicopter is balanced by the lack of durability of the vehicle. A dropship is not designed to be a sky tank, and is specifically designated as a medium aerial vehicle. I mean slight buffs could be given to Gallentean resistance types, and Caldari resistance types, for the hull as long as those same buffs are applied to all tech 2 vehicle hulls in future.
What I think should happen is that swarms be for light vehicle destruction, like LAVs and drop ships, and forges be for tanks. Imagine if we balanced the assault rifle based on sentinel HP values. It would then be very imbalanced against mediums and light suits.
By separating the two with appropriate damage resistances (swarms lose damage against tanks, forges lose damage against drop ships/labs) means we can balance v/av easier, because if we balance everything on the highest HP and ehp vehicles, then the lighter vehicles get shafted.
This way, if tank v/av balance is out of whack, then we adjust the forge gun alone, which doesn't imbalance the forge gun vs drop ships and labs. If drop ship v/av needs tweaking, then we adjust swarms, which then doesn't throw tanks out of whack.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1393
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Posted - 2014.06.24 21:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also you guys to realize that there is a fragmentation warhead that is used in javelins that is very similar to fragmentation methods used for killing aircraft. Though mostly this is used for killing anything that isn't armored while it would still technically work just as good killing most commonly engaged armor targets.
Javelins are not suited for jets due to the short range though and slow speeds but things like gunships and helicopters are more than plausible targets as long as it has a strong IF signal to which just about every helo in the world has. I mean this is no different than shooting a javelin at a tank on top of a hill.
and ultimately if you expect it to do something out in the field you just created a demand for another contract; Things can get developed if they persistently become an issue to soldiers.
Tanks have a much higher IF than choppers do, meaning its harder for a javelin to lock them, and like I said before, the missile doesn't have the speed or maneuverability to hit a chopper. Even if it did, aircraft grade aluminum is not hard enough to set off the charge.
Plus, choppers have flares and such to throw off anti air missiles, which we are sorely lacking.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1393
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 22:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also you guys to realize that there is a fragmentation warhead that is used in javelins that is very similar to fragmentation methods used for killing aircraft. Though mostly this is used for killing anything that isn't armored while it would still technically work just as good killing most commonly engaged armor targets.
Javelins are not suited for jets due to the short range though and slow speeds but things like gunships and helicopters are more than plausible targets as long as it has a strong IF signal to which just about every helo in the world has. I mean this is no different than shooting a javelin at a tank on top of a hill.
and ultimately if you expect it to do something out in the field you just created a demand for another contract; Things can get developed if they persistently become an issue to soldiers. Tanks have a much higher IF than choppers do, meaning its harder for a javelin to lock them, and like I said before, the missile doesn't have the speed or maneuverability to hit a chopper. Even if it did, aircraft grade aluminum is not hard enough to set off the charge. Plus, choppers have flares and such to throw off anti air missiles, which we are sorely lacking. Slight problems. Javelins are pure IR. How would a helo pilot know he was being locked onto and fired upon? Unless he saw the missile separation he wouldn't know to launch flares and if you're using a top down attack he's just as prone to must humans to not looking up. His war is beneath him usually. As proven through the entire cold war, lack of training and experience does not make a technologically superior position immune to technologically inferior methods in hands of highly experienced personnel. So the whole agility argument goes out the window soon as a chopper pilot is caught idling somewhere to probably gun down your friends across the street. Also the IR signal from a helo is near the engine exhaust which on most helicopters is on the top or the tail rotor. The fragmentation warhead was specifically designed to frag against very soft targets not penetrate so even a near proximity causes it to go off for max effect. Finally Structural Paneling made with Aircraft Aluminium Grade is strong enough from most directions of impact to set most detonators off. There are exceptionally very few helicopters that can eat an anti tank munition anyways, the HInd being the only one off the top of my head due to the compartmentalized firewalls. Also if you want to attack a chopper, you do it from the top is the best way to do it. total lack of armor and generally that is where the engines are located.
Again, because jevelins are not fast or ma euverabke. Real life chopper pilots do not hover in one spot and rain death. They are always moving, always. This is because the most prevalent threat they face is an RPG, which is an unguided munition, and it is certainly easier to hit a stationary target than a moving one.
Even then, a chopper does not have enough of an IR signature to get a lock. The only way to hit a chopper with one is to manually aim the rocket at a chopper, which as stated above, is difficult to do.
Also, the fragmentation charge you mentioned does not use fragments. There are two charges. A precursor charge to detonate any reactive armor on the tank, and the penetrative charge that functions as I've described. As choppers do not have reactive armor, the precursor does next to nothing, because the explosion is not big enough to physically damage the chopper.
EDIT: And as I pointed out, the forge gun does not use explosive charges, so the comparison doesn't hold up.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1394
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 22:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also you guys to realize that there is a fragmentation warhead that is used in javelins that is very similar to fragmentation methods used for killing aircraft. Though mostly this is used for killing anything that isn't armored while it would still technically work just as good killing most commonly engaged armor targets.
Javelins are not suited for jets due to the short range though and slow speeds but things like gunships and helicopters are more than plausible targets as long as it has a strong IF signal to which just about every helo in the world has. I mean this is no different than shooting a javelin at a tank on top of a hill.
and ultimately if you expect it to do something out in the field you just created a demand for another contract; Things can get developed if they persistently become an issue to soldiers. Tanks have a much higher IF than choppers do, meaning its harder for a javelin to lock them, and like I said before, the missile doesn't have the speed or maneuverability to hit a chopper. Even if it did, aircraft grade aluminum is not hard enough to set off the charge. Plus, choppers have flares and such to throw off anti air missiles, which we are sorely lacking. Slight problems. Javelins are pure IR. How would a helo pilot know he was being locked onto and fired upon? Unless he saw the missile separation he wouldn't know to launch flares and if you're using a top down attack he's just as prone to must humans to not looking up. His war is beneath him usually. As proven through the entire cold war, lack of training and experience does not make a technologically superior position immune to technologically inferior methods in hands of highly experienced personnel. So the whole agility argument goes out the window soon as a chopper pilot is caught idling somewhere to probably gun down your friends across the street. Also the IR signal from a helo is near the engine exhaust which on most helicopters is on the top or the tail rotor. The fragmentation warhead was specifically designed to frag against very soft targets not penetrate so even a near proximity causes it to go off for max effect. Finally Structural Paneling made with Aircraft Aluminium Grade is strong enough from most directions of impact to set most detonators off. There are exceptionally very few helicopters that can eat an anti tank munition anyways, the HInd being the only one off the top of my head due to the compartmentalized firewalls. Also if you want to attack a chopper, you do it from the top is the best way to do it. total lack of armor and generally that is where the engines are located. Again, because jevelins are not fast or ma euverabke. Real life chopper pilots do not hover in one spot and rain death. They are always moving, always. This is because the most prevalent threat they face is an RPG, which is an unguided munition, and it is certainly easier to hit a stationary target than a moving one. Even then, a chopper does not have enough of an IR signature to get a lock. The only way to hit a chopper with one is to manually aim the rocket at a chopper, which as stated above, is difficult to do. Also, the fragmentation charge you mentioned does not use fragments. There are two charges. A precursor charge to detonate any reactive armor on the tank, and the penetrative charge that functions as I've described. As choppers do not have reactive armor, the precursor does next to nothing, because the explosion is not big enough to physically damage the chopper. EDIT: And as I pointed out, the forge gun does not use explosive charges, so the comparison doesn't hold up. RPGs shot down quite a few choppers and they're slow and have NO tracking or accuracy and a similar type of anti tank warhead.
Which we adapted to by having choppers not stop moving. Most times when an RPG hits, the chopper is usually stationary, such as during a pick up or drop off. As well, those choppers are made for hauling, and are thus big and bulky. Much easier to hit than the Cobra attack chopper the Marine Corps uses. Usually when an attack chopper is hit, its from multiple RPGs fired at them at once, usually from different points.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1394
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Now that I think about it, a lot of the problem is the design of the ADS. Attack choppers (which is the closest RL analogy) are smaller than transport choppers, which is another part of why they are harder to hit. If ADS were redesigned to be smaller instead of a regular DS with a turret stuck on the nose...
But that would take a client side update.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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