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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 10 post(s)
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 888	Posted - 2014.06.08 14:40:00 - [1] - Quote In case any of the CCP devs in attendance at GDC this year missed it http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020583/Animation-Bootcamp-An-Indie-Approach The sections on movement, especially where the two mesh balls form the foundation of how a character moves over and interacts with the terrain are relevant. Legion must have a better system for movement over terrain built into the game from the beginning. Not saying that CCP needs to develop their own procedural animation system from scratch. But movement over terrain and through the environment must be smooth and responsive. And it must be built on a system that will not add excessive work for map and level designers and animators every time something new is added to the game.
Your Absolut End Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 574	Posted - 2014.06.08 18:46:00 - [2] - Quote They should keep in mind that diferent suits will be able to move different. A heavy shouldnt be able to move like a scout through terrain. Movement in games is definately important, love the whole movement design in titanfall :)

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 2992	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:01:00 - [3] - Quote yeah, we've definitely got some improvements to do in that area. It's still too janky and I also think we need to help players get over geometry like fences even if they can't... quite... reach!

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4366	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:16:00 - [4] - Quote Needs more Pssssssssshhhh
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2878	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:39:00 - [5] - Quote The movement needs to flow and feel fluid, yet still give the player the control. Conservation of momentum should be a big thing, even as a heavy. If your traversing large swathes of terrain it's important you don'tfeel impeeded by it! Fences need to be vaulted in a single deft movement. Shoulder High walls should be climable by scouts. Even vehicles should be vaultable. It needs to feel like everything you do in the locomotion system is towards keeping you moving forward. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Your Absolut End Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 578	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:58:00 - [6] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Needs more Pssssssssshhhh silently walks away
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 493	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:03:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: yeah, we've definitely got some improvements to do in that area. It's still too janky and I also think we need to help players get over geometry like fences even if they can't... quite... reach! Have you tried Crysis 3? The multiplayer has extremely fluid movement. The game never, ever, stops you at random obstacles. Navigation is completely effortless. You really should take some clues from that, even if you likely don't want to have similar speeds for players. (Which I personally consider a shame)
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 667	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:39:00 - [8] - Quote Mass Effect 3 was also pretty good. Once you got good you could flow between slipping into cover and parkour across the terrain pretty effortlessly.
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3433	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:42:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: yeah, we've definitely got some improvements to do in that area. It's still too janky and I also think we need to help players get over geometry like fences even if they can't... quite... reach! As an Amarr suit wearer, I approve. BlowoutForCPM
Hawk-eye Occultus ARKOMBlNE 224	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:44:00 - [10] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: yeah, we've definitely got some improvements to do in that area. It's still too janky and I also think we need to help players get over geometry like fences even if they can't... quite... reach! As an Amarr suit wearer, I approve. Indeed, my sentential can't get over a small pipe that rises above the ground as much as a small pebble. Shofixti beats an Ur-Quan Dreadnought and a Kor-Ah Marauder.

ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 818	Posted - 2014.06.09 18:23:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: yeah, we've definitely got some improvements to do in that area. It's still too janky and I also think we need to help players get over geometry like fences even if they can't... quite... reach! This so much Wolfman. It is very VERY reassuring to hear that you understand our plight with fences, hills , rocks, steps and other small inanimate objects.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 257	Posted - 2014.06.10 07:46:00 - [12] - Quote Your Absolut End wrote: They should keep in mind that diferent suits will be able to move different. A heavy shouldnt be able to move like a scout through terrain. Movement in games is definately important, love the whole movement design in titanfall :) A heavy should be able to step up 10 inches which he can't in dust. Heavy's have to kill themselves many times because we can't jump one foot in the air. We also get stuck in the steel gridwork that lays on the ground.And also were the two slopes of ground come together on many maps. If you keep the movement the same you must have exits handicap ramps so our poor heavy's get out of the mess we spawn in.

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3016	Posted - 2014.06.10 09:34:00 - [13] - Quote The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it.

Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 499	Posted - 2014.06.10 09:44:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. I hope the vault exceeds jumps. Stuff like grabbing ledges and pulling yourself up as a scout, while heavies can only use vault to get other smaller obstacles that they can't outright jump over. In both cases, you wouldn't be able to actually scale the terrain with just a jump, though the scout would have no trouble with jumping over an obstacle that a heavy needs to vault over.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2560	Posted - 2014.06.10 09:51:00 - [15] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. I hope the vault exceeds jumps. Stuff like grabbing ledges and pulling yourself up as a scout, while heavies can only use vault to get other smaller obstacles that they can't outright jump over. In both cases, you wouldn't be able to actually scale the terrain with just a jump, though the scout would have no trouble with jumping over an obstacle that a heavy needs to vault over. Being able to parkour would help the scout be a scout though click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 870	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:07:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. I'm not sure about that; the whole point is to allow mobility that plain jumping cannot achieve, at the expense of control and ability to change your mind. Perhaps heavies just vault a lot slower, which locks them into a vault animation for a crucial extra second? Dust/Eve transfers
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2561	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:05:00 - [17] - Quote This could even bring in a whole assortment of modules and equipment. Grappling hook anyone? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 499	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:26:00 - [18] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: This could even bring in a whole assortment of modules and equipment. Grappling hook anyone? I personally prefer jetpacks. High-powered ones that increase your scan profile and stealthy ones that have less power. And myofibrills that also increase jump height. That module should increase all muscle-related activities. The new engine and mouse controls should allow scouts to be much faster without breaking the game.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2562	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:59:00 - [19] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: This could even bring in a whole assortment of modules and equipment. Grappling hook anyone? I personally prefer jetpacks. High-powered ones that increase your scan profile and stealthy ones that have less power. And myofibrills that also increase jump height. That module should increase all muscle-related activities. The new engine and mouse controls should allow scouts to be much faster without breaking the game. 1: flying will get you spotted. 2: climbing a wall (especially if they allow for cloaks to be used while climbing said wall, and no, cloaking while using a jetpack would be OP) is far more discreet. Learn to Ninja. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 35	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:25:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: yeah, we've definitely got some improvements to do in that area. It's still too janky and I also think we need to help players get over geometry like fences even if they can't... quite... reach! heavys and ankle high barriors! Nanite Injectors! Nanite Injectors Everywhere! Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone?

Grimmiers 585	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:56:00 - [21] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. I hope the vault exceeds jumps. Stuff like grabbing ledges and pulling yourself up as a scout, while heavies can only use vault to get other smaller obstacles that they can't outright jump over. In both cases, you wouldn't be able to actually scale the terrain with just a jump, though the scout would have no trouble with jumping over an obstacle that a heavy needs to vault over. Being able to parkour would help the scout be a scout though Wall running and jumping make it happen!! And and and sliding down the side of a building with a nova knife!!! AAAh
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 500	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:23:00 - [22] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. I hope the vault exceeds jumps. Stuff like grabbing ledges and pulling yourself up as a scout, while heavies can only use vault to get other smaller obstacles that they can't outright jump over. In both cases, you wouldn't be able to actually scale the terrain with just a jump, though the scout would have no trouble with jumping over an obstacle that a heavy needs to vault over. Being able to parkour would help the scout be a scout though Wall running and jumping make it happen!! And and and sliding down the side of a building with a nova knife!!! AAAh Momentum-based speed gain like Titanfall? You could recycle Brink's idea. And then you allow all frames to fit all weapons. Only heavies can walk while wielding and shooting heavy weapons and can't be run over by LAVs and other small vehicles (Instead, it's the vehicle that takes some damage). You could do so much by adding intensive agility mechanics, to really differentiate the weight classes and make them feel entirely different. It would make the gameplay of the weight classes so different that you'd have to re-learn the game for each role. Which fits right into the mentality of a learning cliff.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6030	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:35:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. While you're at it, some way to scale vertical obstacles is absolutely necessary (not even joking about this). I don't really care if it's a grappling hook, reverse inertia dampeners, jetpacks, what-have you (though a throwable 'man cannon' equipment would make for some crazy interesting tactical play). We just need something to help players get to higher areas instead of being forced into choke-points or utilizing a drop ship. This is the future man!!! Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
CJ Martino The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 0	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:18:00 - [24] - Quote I think it would be cool if you were running and had the possibility of tripping or stumbling. But I'd rather have the ability to knock other people (scouts) over when they get too close or push people off buildings.

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3019	Posted - 2014.06.11 01:58:00 - [25] - Quote Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-)

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2570	Posted - 2014.06.11 02:07:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Obviously we want you to fix the basic movement first. That's a given. But we can't really discuss how to unless we are talking coding and stuffz, and that's boring. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3020	Posted - 2014.06.11 02:40:00 - [27] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Obviously we want you to fix the basic movement first. That's a given. But we can't really discuss how to unless we are talking coding and stuffz, and that's boring. There are a few people here who might disagree with you on that

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1108	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:45:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Not sure if it falls under the movement category but have you guys looked adding movement / animations for getting in and out of vehicles? Not just the infamous LAV teleport but dismounts from HAVs and DS as well. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2571	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:47:00 - [29] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Not sure if it falls under the movement category but have you guys looked adding movement / animations for getting in and out of vehicles? Not just the infamous LAV teleport but dismounts from HAVs and DS as well. you can't dismount from inside of a pod. Also, not really. It'd be good to have those though. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2571	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:48:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Obviously we want you to fix the basic movement first. That's a given. But we can't really discuss how to unless we are talking coding and stuffz, and that's boring. There are a few people here who might disagree with you on that I'd like to see those people, and no, devs don't count click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

I-Shayz-I I-----I 3653	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:06:00 - [31] - Quote Marked for index 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3027	Posted - 2014.06.11 08:16:00 - [32] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Not sure if it falls under the movement category but have you guys looked adding movement / animations for getting in and out of vehicles? Not just the infamous LAV teleport but dismounts from HAVs and DS as well. ItGÇÖs something weGÇÖve discussed. ItGÇÖs obviously not just a cosmetic change but also a gameplay one i.e. lavs would have to stop to let people get in them, vehicles would have to be entered from specific positions, you could be shot whilst GÇÿout of controlGÇÖ of your character during a transition etc. Those are all things that need to be considered. ItGÇÖs also a fair chunk of work. Third person animations, first person animations, interaction logic, remodeling vehicle entry points, modeling vehicle interiors etc. ItGÇÖs a fair bit of work that could go in to, for example, animation systems for the drones in Salvage. So at this point itGÇÖs an interesting discussion to have but not a high priority feature.

Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 503	Posted - 2014.06.11 08:49:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Not sure if it falls under the movement category but have you guys looked adding movement / animations for getting in and out of vehicles? Not just the infamous LAV teleport but dismounts from HAVs and DS as well. ItGÇÖs something weGÇÖve discussed. ItGÇÖs obviously not just a cosmetic change but also a gameplay one i.e. lavs would have to stop to let people get in them, vehicles would have to be entered from specific positions, you could be shot whilst GÇÿout of controlGÇÖ of your character during a transition etc. Those are all things that need to be considered. ItGÇÖs also a fair chunk of work. Third person animations, first person animations, interaction logic, remodeling vehicle entry points, modeling vehicle interiors etc. ItGÇÖs a fair bit of work that could go in to, for example, animation systems for the drones in Salvage. So at this point itGÇÖs an interesting discussion to have but not a high priority feature. It would be a good balancing feature for higher weight classes of suits. A light suit could hop right into the vehicle, with a basically non-existent animation, while a sentinel would have a comparably long animation that allows other players to shoot them. Also, there would be need for speed-dismount during driving, to allow people to jump out of the vehicle and take a bit of damage. And if you do animations, mounting definitely needs to work even with moving vehicles. Nothing is more awesome than having a buddy pick you up while you are running from someone. Passengers should have overall far easier mounting/dismounting than drivers. It would make Legion feel more authentic, as well as fix the balance issue of drive-by HMGs and make vehicle gameplay simply more "awesome" in feel, as long as you don't botch the job by making everything too static. I'd wager that it might be more beneficial than you think. Then again, having animations for a basic gameplay element is likely more important than such an advanced thing.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6038	Posted - 2014.06.11 09:19:00 - [34] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Not sure if it falls under the movement category but have you guys looked adding movement / animations for getting in and out of vehicles? Not just the infamous LAV teleport but dismounts from HAVs and DS as well. ItGÇÖs something weGÇÖve discussed. ItGÇÖs obviously not just a cosmetic change but also a gameplay one i.e. lavs would have to stop to let people get in them, vehicles would have to be entered from specific positions, you could be shot whilst GÇÿout of controlGÇÖ of your character during a transition etc. Those are all things that need to be considered. ItGÇÖs also a fair chunk of work. Third person animations, first person animations, interaction logic, remodeling vehicle entry points, modeling vehicle interiors etc. ItGÇÖs a fair bit of work that could go in to, for example, animation systems for the drones in Salvage. So at this point itGÇÖs an interesting discussion to have but not a high priority feature. Should be. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1112	Posted - 2014.06.11 13:17:00 - [35] - Quote Nice video, Aeon. That's pretty much why i'm thinking of with the mount and dismount animations. If the only animation they worked on was the LAV one that would be pretty handy and prevent the heavies from having an extra couple thousand eHP as demonstrated in the video. @ CCP Wolfman...could a moderated position be including the LAV animation fix in Legion and treat the HAV and DS as lower priority 'Nice to haves"? "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 896	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:31:00 - [36] - Quote Your Absolut End wrote: They should keep in mind that diferent suits will be able to move different. A heavy shouldnt be able to move like a scout through terrain. Movement in games is definately important, love the whole movement design in titanfall :) Titanfall is definitely fun to play, and the movement is pretty great as a pilot. Even though it can feel contrived/ slightly floaty. somewhat disconnected to the environment at times. I think the great thing about the procedural animation system that Wolfire is working on is that it started out with a really simple yet elegant approach. Then the developer put solid foundation in place. Then they (well, really he, since the studio is basically one guy) was able to continue to build on that to do things like wall running, hanging on ledges, roll down hills, equip and fight with different weapons etc. And also account for usually complex animation/ object interaction problems fairly easily. What happens when a character runs straight at a wall full speed? What happens when the character leaps right at a wall when running full speed? And the animations totally outclass what you see Titanfall. The pilot eject sequences are kind of goofy in comparison. Like Wile E Coyote running off a cliff before he realizes that gravity is about to reassert itself. The cool thing about implementing some procedural techniques is that it allows you have every character interact with every object and terrain in game without needing to program every instance and animate every sequence from scratch. Since project legion will still feature human mercenaries, there will be a need to do some mo-cap and some traditional animation in-betweens. For the sake of fidelity/ heightened realism. But if CCP is able to put a decent character movement framework/ foundation in place that would go a long ways toward making development efficient and enable a smaller studio to add bells and whistles over time.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2888	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:57:00 - [37] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Obviously we want you to fix the basic movement first. That's a given. But we can't really discuss how to unless we are talking coding and stuffz, and that's boring. There are a few people here who might disagree with you on that I'd like to see those people, and no, devs don't count Present and correct, considering Im studying Computer Science (with a healthy number of computer game modules) so the more code the better. As for the basics a simple thing we could do with is a slide, not like locomotion based slide, but if something is meant to be too steep for you to up. Give a slide animation! Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 311	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:59:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Not sure if it falls under the movement category but have you guys looked adding movement / animations for getting in and out of vehicles? Not just the infamous LAV teleport but dismounts from HAVs and DS as well. ItGÇÖs something weGÇÖve discussed. ItGÇÖs obviously not just a cosmetic change but also a gameplay one i.e. lavs would have to stop to let people get in them, vehicles would have to be entered from specific positions, you could be shot whilst GÇÿout of controlGÇÖ of your character during a transition etc. Those are all things that need to be considered. ItGÇÖs also a fair chunk of work. Third person animations, first person animations, interaction logic, remodeling vehicle entry points, modeling vehicle interiors etc. ItGÇÖs a fair bit of work that could go in to, for example, animation systems for the drones in Salvage. So at this point itGÇÖs an interesting discussion to have but not a high priority feature. I'm interested if you planning to do something with traction wheels - like LAV on sand act less predictable than on asphalt.
Grimmiers 588	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:09:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Maybe after you make moving around terrain smoother you can make it so speed changes based on the incline. Going up and down a hill should take up more stamina and make you slower.

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3038	Posted - 2014.06.12 02:20:00 - [40] - Quote Some good points and hilarious videos there! I had a thought of something that could be done with a minimum of work that may help alleviate the problems somewhat. It would be pretty easy to change the entry rules for the LAV (and any other vehicle) so they are placed in specific positions i.e. doors and rear turret. It doesn't solve all issues but may be an improvement. Thoughts?


Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8761	Posted - 2014.06.12 03:03:00 - [41] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Some good points and hilarious videos there! I had a thought of something that could be done with a minimum of work that may help alleviate the problems somewhat. It would be pretty easy to change the entry rules for the LAV (and any other vehicle) so they are placed in specific positions i.e. doors and rear turret. It doesn't solve all issues but may be an improvement. Thoughts? I would suggest taking a page from the Halo series. In Halo, your character is forced to undergo a boarding animation if you wanted to get into a vehicle. The same was true for getting out of it. This is that players won't just simply pop out of their vehicle, shoot you in the face with a Brute Shot, and then instantly disappear into the vehicle to drive away. Unfortunately Dust doesn't have this mechanic in place at all and as a result we have heavies driving around popping out of LAVs, instantly melting you with the HMG, and then disappearing into the LAV to escape. Also, in Halo, where you sat in the vehicle is heavily dependent on where you are boarding from. If you board from the right side of a Warthog, you ended up on the passenger seat. If you boarded a Scorpion Tank from the front, you end up sitting on the turret. We should have the same principle in Legion. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3039	Posted - 2014.06.12 03:20:00 - [42] - Quote I understand that, what I'm suggesting here is more of a stop gap measure because there is quite a lot of other work that will take priority over entry/exit animations should we want to do them.

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2586	Posted - 2014.06.12 05:17:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: I understand that, what I'm suggesting here is more of a stop gap measure because there is quite a lot of other work that will take priority over entry/exit animations should we want to do them. And we get that, and we are saying do that **** first. We're just letting you know that we like to see it. Is that so bad? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3044	Posted - 2014.06.12 05:24:00 - [44] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: I understand that, what I'm suggesting here is more of a stop gap measure because there is quite a lot of other work that will take priority over entry/exit animations should we want to do them. And we get that, and we are saying do that **** first. We're just letting you know that we like to see it. Is that so bad? No it's not bad I just want to get your opinion on the other suggestion and whether or or not you think it would help or if it would be a waste of time and we should just leave it as is until we are able to make a more significant change?

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2586	Posted - 2014.06.12 05:38:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: No it's not bad I just want to get your opinion on the other suggestion and whether or or not you think it would help or if it would be a waste of time and we should just leave it as is until we are able to make a more significant change? Godin Thekiller wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. I hope the vault exceeds jumps. Stuff like grabbing ledges and pulling yourself up as a scout, while heavies can only use vault to get other smaller obstacles that they can't outright jump over. In both cases, you wouldn't be able to actually scale the terrain with just a jump, though the scout would have no trouble with jumping over an obstacle that a heavy needs to vault over. Being able to parkour would help the scout be a scout though Does this answer your question? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3044	Posted - 2014.06.12 06:29:00 - [46] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: No it's not bad I just want to get your opinion on the other suggestion and whether or or not you think it would help or if it would be a waste of time and we should just leave it as is until we are able to make a more significant change? Godin Thekiller wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. I hope the vault exceeds jumps. Stuff like grabbing ledges and pulling yourself up as a scout, while heavies can only use vault to get other smaller obstacles that they can't outright jump over. In both cases, you wouldn't be able to actually scale the terrain with just a jump, though the scout would have no trouble with jumping over an obstacle that a heavy needs to vault over. Being able to parkour would help the scout be a scout though Does this answer your question? No I was asking about retaining the current vehicle entry system (teleport) but changing vehicle entry points to specific locations on the vehicle rather than it just being anywhere on the vehicle

bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 264	Posted - 2014.06.12 07:53:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. Eventually including considerations for the weapon one is carrying would seem appropriate as well. Such as a heavy carrying a light weapon should move (and turn) faster than when carrying a heavy weapon and a scout with knives should move (slightly) faster than with a light weapon. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 264	Posted - 2014.06.12 08:09:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Not sure if it falls under the movement category but have you guys looked adding movement / animations for getting in and out of vehicles? Not just the infamous LAV teleport but dismounts from HAVs and DS as well. ItGÇÖs something weGÇÖve discussed. ItGÇÖs obviously not just a cosmetic change but also a gameplay one i.e. lavs would have to stop to let people get in them, vehicles would have to be entered from specific positions, you could be shot whilst GÇÿout of controlGÇÖ of your character during a transition etc. Those are all things that need to be considered. ItGÇÖs also a fair chunk of work. Third person animations, first person animations, interaction logic, remodeling vehicle entry points, modeling vehicle interiors etc. ItGÇÖs a fair bit of work that could go in to, for example, animation systems for the drones in Salvage. So at this point itGÇÖs an interesting discussion to have but not a high priority feature. This should be a higher priority - at least the basics. Maybe simplified animations and/or delays at first and at a later time adding a more enhanced version? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 264	Posted - 2014.06.12 08:10:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Some good points and hilarious videos there! I had a thought of something that could be done with a minimum of work that may help alleviate the problems somewhat. It would be pretty easy to change the entry rules for the LAV (and any other vehicle) so they are placed in specific positions i.e. doors and rear turret. It doesn't solve all issues but may be an improvement. Thoughts? Anything is better than nothing. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 264	Posted - 2014.06.12 08:24:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: No I was asking about retaining the current vehicle entry system (teleport) but changing vehicle entry points to specific locations on the vehicle rather than it just being anywhere on the vehicle Adding a driver side entry and a passenger side entry would be good. And if it takes less work to do, it should be prioritized. I also think including a slight delay to the teleport would be acceptable until you could fit proper animations on the to do list. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1

Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 505	Posted - 2014.06.12 09:38:00 - [51] - Quote I love how the Dust boards almost never actually answer the devs directly, and instead just post random semi-insults. Restricting driver entry to one side would be more annoying than useful. Just make a hack-like progress bar when you enter a vehicle, which requires you to hold down the boarding button. It's longer for heavier suits. This directly counters the driveby HMG issue and is functionally similar to an actual animation, meaning that it can be considered a placeholder for later additions to the syste,.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8764	Posted - 2014.06.12 11:13:00 - [52] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: I love how the Dust boards almost never actually answer the devs directly, and instead just post random semi-insults. Restricting driver entry to one side would be more annoying than useful. Just make a hack-like progress bar when you enter a vehicle, which requires you to hold down the boarding button. It's longer for heavier suits. This directly counters the driveby HMG issue and is functionally similar to an actual animation, meaning that it can be considered a placeholder for later additions to the syste,. No, it won't be annoying. It's practical. Halo has proven that multiple times and no one complained about the restrictions to vehicle entry. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense to be able to hop into the driver seat when you're just standing by the front bumper or appear in the driver seat first when you're boarding from the passenger side. Such a restriction serves two practical proposes. It makes the game look more realistic in terms of movement and it also makes the game balanced in terms of dealing with the annoying habit that some heavies in LAVs have been doing in DUST so far. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Kincate DUST University Ivy League 71	Posted - 2014.06.12 11:31:00 - [53] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. So if you do this can you get rid of bunny hopping? The ability to propel yourself off a roof great, vault over objects fantastic, slide, go prone, take cover, these are all good things. Jumping abitrarily in the air in a lame attempt to aviod fire.... lame. 1st Legionhare
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8764	Posted - 2014.06.12 14:21:00 - [54] - Quote Kincate wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. So if you do this can you get rid of bunny hopping? The ability to propel yourself off a roof great, vault over objects fantastic, slide, go prone, take cover, these are all good things. Jumping abitrarily in the air in a lame attempt to aviod fire.... lame. Bunny hopping is no problem at all as long as stamina continues to exist. On top of that, stamina in DUST depletes faster as you consecutively jump. This prevents players from constantly bunny hopping. Even on Amarr scout, the stamina still drains at a relatively similar rate when hopping like all other suits. You might get an extra jump or two but after that you opened yourself up to be Swiss cheese to a plasma rifle. Better to just sprint away than hop. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6045	Posted - 2014.06.12 14:57:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Some good points and hilarious videos there! I had a thought of something that could be done with a minimum of work that may help alleviate the problems somewhat. It would be pretty easy to change the entry rules for the LAV (and any other vehicle) so they are placed in specific positions i.e. doors and rear turret. It doesn't solve all issues but may be an improvement. Thoughts? Sure, go for it. Just letting you know, though, it doesn't stop Heavies from using LAVs are a means of circumventing their mobility. Just makes a little harder for them to get back in the vehicle after they've killed you. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Grimmiers 589	Posted - 2014.06.12 15:55:00 - [56] - Quote Any chance of use being able to see our feet in legion? It really helps with character movement when you can see where you're walking.
Spectre-M The Generals 514	Posted - 2014.06.12 16:11:00 - [57] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Needs more Pssssssssshhhh This.
Kincate DUST University Ivy League 71	Posted - 2014.06.12 16:17:00 - [58] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Kincate wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: The idea is to start simple and build up. First smoother movement over undulating terrain. Second, help characters 'vault' over fence like objects. This is somethingwe can probably calculate based on the jump height so a heavy would get less help than a scout. We'll have to wait and see once we start to work on it. So if you do this can you get rid of bunny hopping? The ability to propel yourself off a roof great, vault over objects fantastic, slide, go prone, take cover, these are all good things. Jumping abitrarily in the air in a lame attempt to aviod fire.... lame. Bunny hopping is no problem at all as long as stamina continues to exist. On top of that, stamina in DUST depletes faster as you consecutively jump. This prevents players from constantly bunny hopping. Even on Amarr scout, the stamina still drains at a relatively similar rate when hopping like all other suits. You might get an extra jump or two but after that you opened yourself up to be Swiss cheese to a plasma rifle. Better to just sprint away than hop. It is a goofy and outdate game mechanic there are better ways to handle movement than bunny hopping. Get rid of it not because it is game breaking but because it is cartoonish. 1st Legionhare
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8764	Posted - 2014.06.12 16:34:00 - [59] - Quote @kincate Jumping is only lame when bunny hopping. But when it comes to jumping off cliffs or structures, we still need it. These are super suits after all. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2693	Posted - 2014.06.12 17:38:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: No I was asking about retaining the current vehicle entry system (teleport) but changing vehicle entry points to specific locations on the vehicle rather than it just being anywhere on the vehicle That would help. Specifically for one, that entering from the passenger side merely puts you in the passenger seat. This reduces your jumping in and out ability, and also makes it easy for people to jump in your passenger seat intentionally, rather than accidentally taking the driver seat. But vehicle entry/exit animations absolutely needs to be a thing in Legion. You can make it relatively quick for the purposes of not offering too much time to shoot people while doing it, but it needs to be there. And the type of vehicle should have a lot to do with it it. Getting in a tank needs to involve actually opening a hatch. (Do current tanks even have hatches?) I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2597	Posted - 2014.06.12 18:41:00 - [61] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: No I was asking about retaining the current vehicle entry system (teleport) but changing vehicle entry points to specific locations on the vehicle rather than it just being anywhere on the vehicle Huh? oh that. I glazed over that somehow, not sure why my brain likes doing that............ Anyways, it's a step in the right direction, but it shouldn't stay like that imo. If that's all you can pull by release, fine. But it should change to a full animation later on. Better to actually have something than just saying screw it and not having anything at all. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 506	Posted - 2014.06.12 19:14:00 - [62] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: No, it won't be annoying. It's practical. Halo has proven that multiple times and no one complained about the restrictions to vehicle entry. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense to be able to hop into the driver seat when you're just standing by the front bumper or appear in the driver seat first when you're boarding from the passenger side. Such a restriction serves two practical proposes. It makes the game look more realistic in terms of movement and it also makes the game balanced in terms of dealing with the annoying habit that some heavies in LAVs have been doing in DUST so far. I'm currently playing Borderlands 2. There was more than one time-critical situation where I accidentally hopped into the gunner seat because I didn't look at the car correctly. So no, there is no guarantee for such a system being good. Not to mention that this would require lag to the changing of seat positions - Otherwise it would just be an obnoxious hindrance that requires you to shift positions to drive sometimes. And really, you can't compare this to Halo. IIRC Halo has invulnerable vehicles and they definitely don't cost you ingame money. Ever wondered what happens if a swarmer is locking your LAV and you are trying to save it, but accidentally hop into the passenger seat?
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2597	Posted - 2014.06.12 19:18:00 - [63] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: No, it won't be annoying. It's practical. Halo has proven that multiple times and no one complained about the restrictions to vehicle entry. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense to be able to hop into the driver seat when you're just standing by the front bumper or appear in the driver seat first when you're boarding from the passenger side. Such a restriction serves two practical proposes. It makes the game look more realistic in terms of movement and it also makes the game balanced in terms of dealing with the annoying habit that some heavies in LAVs have been doing in DUST so far. I'm currently playing Borderlands 2. There was more than one time-critical situation where I accidentally hopped into the gunner seat because I didn't look at the car correctly. So no, there is no guarantee for such a system being good. Not to mention that this would require lag to the changing of seat positions - Otherwise it would just be an obnoxious hindrance that requires you to shift positions to drive sometimes. And really, you can't compare this to Halo. IIRC Halo has invulnerable vehicles and they definitely don't cost you ingame money. Ever wondered what happens if a swarmer is locking your LAV and you are trying to save it, but accidentally hop into the passenger seat? Seeing as though the vehicle models are god awful in Borderlands, no surprise there. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 506	Posted - 2014.06.12 20:49:00 - [64] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Seeing as though the vehicle models are god awful in Borderlands, no surprise there. Borderlands 2 is actually improved, even if it's only moderately not-**** now.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2597	Posted - 2014.06.12 20:57:00 - [65] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Seeing as though the vehicle models are god awful in Borderlands, no surprise there. Borderlands 2 is actually improved, even if it's only moderately not-** now. Still pretty **. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4418	Posted - 2014.06.13 08:16:00 - [66] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think we should be able to walk smoothly over rocks before we start running on walls :-) Not sure if it falls under the movement category but have you guys looked adding movement / animations for getting in and out of vehicles? Not just the infamous LAV teleport but dismounts from HAVs and DS as well. ItGÇÖs something weGÇÖve discussed. ItGÇÖs obviously not just a cosmetic change but also a gameplay one i.e. lavs would have to stop to let people get in them, vehicles would have to be entered from specific positions, you could be shot whilst GÇÿout of controlGÇÖ of your character during a transition etc. Those are all things that need to be considered. ItGÇÖs also a fair chunk of work. Third person animations, first person animations, interaction logic, remodeling vehicle entry points, modeling vehicle interiors etc. ItGÇÖs a fair bit of work that could go in to, for example, animation systems for the drones in Salvage. So at this point itGÇÖs an interesting discussion to have but not a high priority feature. Immersion and consistency should always be a high priority feature.
Kincate DUST University Ivy League 72	Posted - 2014.06.14 17:37:00 - [67] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @kincate Jumping is only lame when bunny hopping. But when it comes to jumping off cliffs or structures, we still need it. These are super suits after all. You can have a better system for propeling yourself off cliffs and structures. bunny hopping needs to go 1st Legionhare
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 507	Posted - 2014.06.14 21:54:00 - [68] - Quote Bunny hopping is only an issue for console shooters and in games where it actually increases your speed due to engine fuckups. When mouse is the default control scheme, bunny hopping will be pointless because your jumping trajectory is very predictable. Combat diving and fast sidestrafing, however...
TechMechMeds Inner.Hell 3578	Posted - 2014.06.14 22:37:00 - [69] - Quote Please not as fluid as uncharted, just no. The struggle is real Confirmed by my toilet
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 312	Posted - 2014.06.14 23:05:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Some good points and hilarious videos there! I had a thought of something that could be done with a minimum of work that may help alleviate the problems somewhat. It would be pretty easy to change the entry rules for the LAV (and any other vehicle) so they are placed in specific positions i.e. doors and rear turret. It doesn't solve all issues but may be an improvement. Thoughts? Sounds cool. I think it's good 'first step' in direction of entry-animation. But: 1) We can not control RDV and how vehicle is being deployed on battlefield(in which way vehicle is directed) so it's gonna be very hard for some people to find pilot-entry before someone will destroy their vehicle - especially if they will be in slow suit. So, people that call vehicles, or people that are going to entry to vehicles as first should have 'special powers' and be able to entry as currently. 2) Second thoughts go to situation when someone inside vehicle is switching place, and because of it, he prevent persons from outside to get in.. maybe some vehicles should not have option to switch seat, or some seat should not have that option. For example LAV driver, or passenger can not teleport to gunner seat - I think they should be able to take control over the turret from their place (with some tablet device or something like that :P), but in situations when the distance between one seat and a second one is too 'physically time consuming' it should be prevented.

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15466	Posted - 2014.06.14 23:10:00 - [71] - Quote http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020583/Animation-Bootcamp-An-Indie-Approach seems interesting and applicable to our own soldier movements. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 898	Posted - 2014.06.14 23:45:00 - [72] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020583/Animation-Bootcamp-An-Indie-Approach seems interesting and applicable to our own soldier movements. Maybe it seems applicable because that is the exact same link that I posted to start this whole thing off in the first post of the thread? Please pay attention! FFS...

CCP Wolfman C C P C C P Alliance 3064	Posted - 2014.06.15 03:32:00 - [73] - Quote No need to get angry Aigun, letGÇÖs try and keep the conversation pleasant please. It is indeed a great talk, seeing how the character animations are built up piece by piece is fascinating. I think we can probably put the vehicle entry animation discussion to rest now. WeGÇÖve talked about the pros, cons and edge cases. I think itGÇÖs something we can return to and discuss in a more structured way when we are in a position to actually consider working on it. First comes making core infantry movement smooth across undulating terrain and over small obstacles. One point that has come up a few times here is bunny hopping. I see some of you guys feel it is an issue whilst others do not. As you know we limit it currently using stamina cost for jumping and an increased cost per jump within a window of x. Do you think we need to go further?

Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2607	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:25:00 - [74] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: No need to get angry Aigun, letGÇÖs try and keep the conversation pleasant please. It is indeed a great talk, seeing how the character animations are built up piece by piece is fascinating. I think we can probably put the vehicle entry animation discussion to rest now. WeGÇÖve talked about the pros, cons and edge cases. I think itGÇÖs something we can return to and discuss in a more structured way when we are in a position to actually consider working on it. First comes making core infantry movement smooth across undulating terrain and over small obstacles. One point that has come up a few times here is bunny hopping. I see some of you guys feel it is an issue whilst others do not. As you know we limit it currently using stamina cost for jumping and an increased cost per jump within a window of x. Do you think we need to go further? Not really. The only ones that can do it is scouts, and even then, Only the Amarr Scout can indefinitely do it (currently anyways). Doesn't really need any changes imo. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 898	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:40:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: No need to get angry Aigun... Not angry. Something between bemused and exasperated. Anyway, procedural animation would also be really beneficial for the first person weapon load, re-load, weapon swap animations, and for hip fire and aiming animations. It would potentially allow smaller teams to create more content rapidly once the system is in place. The segment of the presentation that demonstrated a revolver was a nice illustration of what can be accomplished with that kind of system in a short time.
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2608	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:58:00 - [76] - Quote Aighun wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: No need to get angry Aigun... Not angry. Something between bemused and exasperated. Anyway, procedural animation would also be really beneficial for the first person weapon load, re-load, weapon swap animations, and for hip fire and aiming animations. It would potentially allow smaller teams to create more content rapidly once the system is in place. The segment of the presentation that demonstrated a revolver was a nice illustration of what can be accomplished with that kind of system in a short time. That video really interested me. I hope CCP takes all of the resources they can like that to make a well done expeience, sa that seemed to handle well. If they could pull off that falling part, it would be pretty sweet click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
BLOOD Ruler The Lionheart Coalition 361	Posted - 2014.06.15 06:01:00 - [77] - Quote Jumping drains stamina a lot,3 jumps is the max even with the amarr scout with the stamina regulator.Decrease stamina cost to the point where 4-5 is and option. Feel my knives and the pain of the shotgun,while your flesh burns from my remotes.I am the assassin.
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 507	Posted - 2014.06.15 08:29:00 - [78] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Please not as fluid as uncharted, just no. Why the hell would you take any cues from Uncharted, aside from the storylines and locales of the first two games? The gameplay is an atrocity based on "we need more snipers to make it more frustrating!" and movement animations can get obnoxious. CCP Wolfman wrote: One point that has come up a few times here is bunny hopping. I see some of you guys feel it is an issue whilst others do not. As you know we limit it currently using stamina cost for jumping and an increased cost per jump within a window of x. Do you think we need to go further? I'd say you should do less. The stamina mechanics really lower the pace of gameplay - Which is fine for the console version, due to the dual-analog setup, but bad for the PC. As I already said, no one will bunny hop anyway, aside from early game jumps out of impatience. (In fact, I'd wager that the short hops are more useful during a gun fight than proper jumps) I feel it will greatly increase the tactical possibilities if people can properly maneuver around obstacles unter duress. A similar thing happened in Crysis, where the second game had energy drain on sprint, while the third didn't, which allowed the third to be fun as balls because you actually had options during a fight and could run away when necessary. Note that the energy bar in that game served more functions than just sprinting - Dust would be more similar if Scanners and other devices ran off the stamina bar. If you actually thought about that possibility... Don't. In fact, I'd ask you to reconsider many of the mechanics in the game. Like the fact that reloads can be cancelled, meaning that reloading is a no-brainer thing, (Reload whenever possible - If an enemy pops up, just cancel) or if stamina is really necessary. Personally, I'd prefer the "reloading drains your magazine" system, as it really fits the "hardcore" mentality of the EVE universe. Or at least make some guns do that. Or, hell, even the damage profiles. They don't make sense on infantry, because the time to kill is too low (and will always be too low, unless you give us Quake-like TTK or something), player counts are very high (as opposed to, for example, tanks, where I totally approve of damage profiles) and there are no active modules to allow this to add any tactical advantage. (Again, tanks have it) If we had the ability to actually get out of a hot zone when we realize that the enemy has lasers against our shield tank, it might be a different story, even if only Scouts and Minmatar Assaults would be viable for a retreat. (Even then: You'll never find a squad entirely consisting of a single race/damage type, so you'll ALWAYS run into the damage type that kills you most efficiently) Basically, the ability to jump many obstacles in a short amount of time could increase the moment-to-moment choices that a player can make. There are multiple places in Dust where structures have alternate entries that require jumping - But even scouts need to pause on them before they can move on, which is insanely silly. Also, stamina is the most blatantly immersion breaking feature of the game. Humans are naturally geared towards endurance and those are supposedly clones full of hardware and drugs to make them superhuman. Normally I don't care much about how realistic things are, but this is just stupid because you explicitly contradict your game mechanics with lore.
BLOOD Ruler The Lionheart Coalition 361	Posted - 2014.06.15 09:05:00 - [79] - Quote Superhuman should have higher limits. Feel my knives and the pain of the shotgun,while your flesh burns from my remotes.I am the assassin.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6063	Posted - 2014.06.15 09:06:00 - [80] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: No need to get angry Aigun, letGÇÖs try and keep the conversation pleasant please. It is indeed a great talk, seeing how the character animations are built up piece by piece is fascinating. I think we can probably put the vehicle entry animation discussion to rest now. WeGÇÖve talked about the pros, cons and edge cases. I think itGÇÖs something we can return to and discuss in a more structured way when we are in a position to actually consider working on it. First comes making core infantry movement smooth across undulating terrain and over small obstacles. One point that has come up a few times here is bunny hopping. I see some of you guys feel it is an issue whilst others do not. As you know we limit it currently using stamina cost for jumping and an increased cost per jump within a window of x. Do you think we need to go further? Not really. The only ones that can do it is scouts, and even then, Only the Amarr Scout can indefinitely do it (currently anyways). Doesn't really need any changes imo. This isn't necessarily true. Jumping costs stamina based on a percentage, a Scout with stacked cardiac regulators can only jump as many times as a scout without them. This was actually a problem I brought up a long time ago because I think it's artificial and cardiac regulators -should- increase jumping capability since it's increasing stamina. If a guy is sacrificing that many low slots to bunny hop, he's probably not going to have too much in the way of defenses anyway Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1

BLOOD Ruler The Lionheart Coalition 363	Posted - 2014.06.15 09:20:00 - [81] - Quote Increase bunnyhopping power.No seriously do it.Why should 3 be the limit for jumping Feel the pain of my knives and the piercing pain your skull has felt to my pistol.I am the Assassin.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 899	Posted - 2014.06.15 16:46:00 - [82] - Quote Bunny hoppingGÇª Bunny hopping is a non issue. There is no such thing as bunny hopping in Dust 514, and never has been, There also won't be bunny hopping in legion. For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping Yes, players can exploit animations to make themselves difficult to hit. In an FPS it is the developers job to take this basic fact of gaming into consideration when designing movement systems. The real question is, "Should characters be able to jump repeatedly?" The obvious answer is, "Yes." Next thing you have to look at, then, is how that repeated jumping should actually work. Stamina management is a related mechanic, but a separate issue. I think that there should be stamina management in Legion. It allows for deeper and more interesting character building. Also an area that can be used to balance various types of builds. It could be a really interesting aspect of team play if CCP ever introduce anything like buffs/ debuffs. And it would also help to flesh out the Universe of New Eden. If all characters have a stamina bar built in from day 1, you could use that to simulate the effects of differing gravity on different planets. Going off on a slight tangent here, but in EVE Valkyrie, the team has mentioned that different ship classes will have different advantages and disadvantages on different turfs. In legion, the same thing could be accomplished with stamina management. It is a running joke when talking about science fiction film and tv that every single planet that anyone ever goes to is always almost exactly 9.78 m/s-¦. But all of the different planets, even the temperate planets, all have different mass and size, and therefore gravity. But your drop suit could simulates "normal" gravity at the cost of stamina. Back to so called bunny hopping. Repeated jumping. Dust 514 solved the problems that crop up with repeated jumping by capping them with a depleting stamina bar. A simple, basic solution. A game like Titan Fall allows players to move so quickly and fluidly and traverse the maps so effortlessly that repeated jumping is never an issue. There is no such thing as stamina management in that game. Legion should come up with it's own, up do date and future proof movement system. A system based on the idea that in general characters can traverse every square inch of the terrain and installations. And that each type of dropsuit will do so in its own unique way. And then make some basic rules for each of the different types of suits. Apologies in advance for going full armchair game design in 3GÇª 2GÇª 1... Put together a basic set of movements over terrain. Flat ground, undulating ground, steep slope, low obstacles, rocks or cliffs. Walk, jog, fast run, vault, clamber, climb. Scout suit can: walk, jog, fast run, vault, clamber, fast clamber, climb, fast climb, and has the ability to climb walls. Assault suit can: walk, jog, fast run, clamber, climb, but cannot climb walls, and so on. What about jumping, and repeat jumping? Scout suit cannot repeat jump! What? A scout suit is designed for fast and continuous running at very low cost to stamina. The scout suit jump does not cost much stamina, but is a high arc, 4 meter jump and can only be made from a full fast run. The landing has some frames of compression, where the , and going from landing to full run takes a lot longer than going from walk to full run. Scout suit can combo their jump with wall climbingGÇª Can they wall run? Will legion go full parkour? who knows. A heavy suit cannot jump, at all. A heavy can get over curbs and railings and vault without movement or stamina penalties. But no jumping. Suit just isn't designed to move like that. Also no fast run. Sorry, heavies. And the assault suit can bunnyhop. If you want to call it that. But repeatedly spamming the jump button while moving in the same direction will get you a series of slow, predictable jumps kind of like a kid playing hopscotch. The assault can make fast, low arc leaps or by rapidly changing directions, but each leap in a different direction costs stamina. That is a huge amount of work. Does CCP Shanghai have the resources to put together something that involved using more traditional techniques and their current engine? Probably not. WIll any of those proposals actually work and make interesting, balanced gameplay, or would they just be broken and as prone to abuse asGÇª Bunnyhopping? Who knows. But project legion will be a much better game in the long run if CCP get over some of these legacy FPS issues that keep cropping up and design movement specifically for legion. So, even though every drop suit should be able to traverse all of the terrain in a map, the game will be that much richer and engaging if they all do it in their own specific way. And repeat jumping is just one kind of movement. It isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but why not design the jumps to be a unique part of legion's FPS gameplay? Rather than using a generic template for all suits and then get bogged down in trying to figure out how many jumps are too many.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8769	Posted - 2014.06.15 17:36:00 - [83] - Quote Bunny hopping was never an issue in Dust as many people already pointed out during the past 2 years of Dust's development. Even during closed beta, bunny hopping was extremely limited. Keep in mind that jumping takes a percentage of your stamina. To make things more difficult, the percentage increases rapidly as you repeatedly jump non-stop. As a result, even a maxed out Amarr Scout with complex cardiac regulators won't be able to jump any more than maybe once more before they are completely drained of any stamina they had. At that point, they are 100% vulnerable to anyone with a gun because not only have they lost any stamina to jump more, they are also incapable of sprinting away to safety. And with the stamina recharge delay, you can't mash the sprint button to get away either. This forces even the high-stamina players like the Amarr Scouts and Minmatar Scouts to carefully plan their attacks and their retreats. They have to be tactical about it rather than just blindly jump and hope for the best. Again, because of the above-mentioned mechanic that Dust has, bunny hopping was a non-issue and anyone who tells you otherwise was obviously not paying attention to what's really going on in the code. And since Legion will be on the PC, it's much easier to deal with bunny hoppers because of the precision granted by the mouse versus that of a console controller. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8769	Posted - 2014.06.15 17:41:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: No need to get angry Aigun, letGÇÖs try and keep the conversation pleasant please. It is indeed a great talk, seeing how the character animations are built up piece by piece is fascinating. I think we can probably put the vehicle entry animation discussion to rest now. WeGÇÖve talked about the pros, cons and edge cases. I think itGÇÖs something we can return to and discuss in a more structured way when we are in a position to actually consider working on it. First comes making core infantry movement smooth across undulating terrain and over small obstacles. One point that has come up a few times here is bunny hopping. I see some of you guys feel it is an issue whilst others do not. As you know we limit it currently using stamina cost for jumping and an increased cost per jump within a window of x. Do you think we need to go further? I don't believe for a second that we need to go further than that. The jumping mechanic as we see in Dust 514 is nearly perfect at the moment. The reason I say nearly is because I shouldn't need to jump a 6-inch curb. But beyond that, bunny hopping is perfectly under control in Dust. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 312	Posted - 2014.06.15 19:17:00 - [85] - Quote I'm playing as a gallente scout for a while, and I agree with most thing that was told here. Once I try to make full proto BunnyHopping-fit, I don't remember exact numbers except that I was able to make 5 jumps and sprint for half match without resting(it was so stupid - IRL it's challenging to sprint extremely fast for longer than 2 minutes). I would like to see separation between sprinting and jumping, it would be so cool if those both things would not be depended on just one source(stamina) but on two. Some actions like crossing railings would consume both of them but not in way that jumping is more efficient. Also I would like to see Sniper Sway implemented to this mechanic(some-how) like in other games when you hold your breath and cross stop swaying for short amout of time. Beside, stamina or other rechargeable source should have impact on Inertia dampeners, because I think it is too safe for now. This mechanic should have a greater margin of error. Player should be able to turn it on when ever he wishes, but if he will turn it on too early or too late, he will not land safely. Everyone should be able to cross small obstacles(to size of railings) without having to jump, It should be flowing to them and not consume too much rechargeable 'powers', but at the same point players should not be able to do it forever, theres should be some boundaries. Heavy should not be able to hop, or jump in Legion - they do not need it, they are brick of health points already and as soon as they will be able to defeat railings they do not need to jump. ..and I run out of ideas
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8774	Posted - 2014.06.15 19:33:00 - [86] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: I'm playing as a gallente scout for a while, and I agree with most thing that was told here. Once I try to make full proto BunnyHopping-fit, I don't remember exact numbers except that I was able to make 5 jumps and sprint for half match without resting(it was so stupid - IRL it's challenging to sprint extremely fast for longer than 2 minutes). I would like to see separation between sprinting and jumping, it would be so cool if those both things would not be depended on just one source(stamina) but on two. Some actions like crossing railings would consume both of them but not in way that jumping is more efficient. Also I would like to see Sniper Sway implemented to this mechanic(some-how) like in other games when you hold your breath and cross stop swaying for short amout of time. Beside, stamina or other rechargeable source should have impact on Inertia dampeners, because I think it is too safe for now. This mechanic should have a greater margin of error. Player should be able to turn it on when ever he wishes, but if he will turn it on too early or too late, he will not land safely. Everyone should be able to cross small obstacles(to size of railings) without having to jump, It should be flowing to them and not consume too much rechargeable 'powers', but at the same point players should not be able to do it forever, theres should be some boundaries. Heavy should not be able to hop, or jump in Legion - they do not need it, they are brick of health points already and as soon as they will be able to defeat railings they do not need to jump. ..and I run out of ideas No. Jumping and Sprinting needs to rely on the same source of stamina. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6066	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:44:00 - [87] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: No. Jumping and Sprinting needs to rely on the same source of stamina. I don't disagree but it is kinda botch that applying cardiac regulators doesn't increase your stamina for jumping. It's a pain in the butt trying to jump over a six inch ledge then suddenly not having any stamina left to continue sprinting because the initial jump took way more than necessary. There's a part of the Caldari Biomass Outpost where a bunch of crates are stacked next to a wall, trying to go over that is damn near a death sentence if you don't have a full bar of stamina. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8775	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:07:00 - [88] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: No. Jumping and Sprinting needs to rely on the same source of stamina. I don't disagree but it is kinda botch that applying cardiac regulators doesn't increase your stamina for jumping. It's a pain in the butt trying to jump over a six inch ledge then suddenly not having any stamina left to continue sprinting because the initial jump took way more than necessary. There's a part of the Caldari Biomass Outpost where a bunch of crates are stacked next to a wall, trying to go over that is damn near a death sentence if you don't have a full bar of stamina. Which is why I see it as important to address the issue of having to jump a 6-inch curb. I shouldn't have to jump over something that small. If that can be solved, the vast majority of sprinting problems will be gone. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Kincate DUST University Ivy League 73	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:37:00 - [89] - Quote I was in early beta, bunny hoping was one among many problems. Frankly right now no one is saying it is a balance issue, it is just both stupid looking and a wholly outdated mechanic to have. If you are worring about low obsticles take the time and develop obsticle interaction, vaulting over something looks better than the bunny hops. If you arent going to do it because it is time consuming that is something by itself, but if you want immersion you need mechanics which allow you to interact with your enviornment. 1st Legionhare
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 509	Posted - 2014.06.16 10:21:00 - [90] - Quote Kincate wrote: I was in early beta, bunny hoping was one among many problems. Frankly right now no one is saying it is a balance issue, it is just both stupid looking and a wholly outdated mechanic to have. If you are worring about low obsticles take the time and develop obsticle interaction, vaulting over something looks better than the bunny hops. If you arent going to do it because it is time consuming that is something by itself, but if you want immersion you need mechanics which allow you to interact with your enviornment. How the **** is the ability to jump an outdated mechanic? It's a vital aspect of scout gameplay to be able to scale terrain by jumping over it. Also, stupid-looking? Seriously? There are many stupid looking things in Dust and jumping around is not one of them. In fact, it looks awesome to see someone scale heights and distances with long jumps. And jumping into cover is completely valid, though it should have its own animation to make it look more dynamic.

Kincate DUST University Ivy League 73	Posted - 2014.06.16 12:20:00 - [91] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Kincate wrote: I was in early beta, bunny hoping was one among many problems. Frankly right now no one is saying it is a balance issue, it is just both stupid looking and a wholly outdated mechanic to have. If you are worring about low obsticles take the time and develop obsticle interaction, vaulting over something looks better than the bunny hops. If you arent going to do it because it is time consuming that is something by itself, but if you want immersion you need mechanics which allow you to interact with your enviornment. How the **** is the ability to jump an outdated mechanic? It's a vital aspect of scout gameplay to be able to scale terrain by jumping over it. Also, stupid-looking? Seriously? There are many stupid looking things in Dust and jumping around is not one of them. In fact, it looks awesome to see someone scale heights and distances with long jumps. And jumping into cover is completely valid, though it should have its own animation to make it look more dynamic. Because you are starting to see more shooters with systems which forgoe jump and instead give people the ability to interact with their terrain. I also do not know how much you scale or climb things but unless you are doing some awesome parkour it is usually hand hold to hand hold, and hell if you make the jumping look parkourish more power to you. But there is no way you are going to take the look of jumping as it is right now and say this fits stylisticly in the idea of future combat that is New Eden. There is a difference in immersion requires a certain amount of this LOOKS real. Not to start a discussion about realism because that is not my intention, but when I see what is on my screen I should be able to go ok this looks like it could happen, whether it can happen or not is an entirely different story, but I want to believe! That is why it needs to be replaced with something different. 1st Legionhare
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 901	Posted - 2014.06.16 13:03:00 - [92] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Also, stupid-looking? Seriously? There are many stupid looking things in Dust and jumping around is not one of them. In fact, it looks awesome to see someone scale heights and distances with long jumps. And jumping into cover is completely valid, though it should have its own animation to make it look more dynamic. Goat Simulator, the Mountain Goat expansion pack... I find scaling heights, especially when you run out of stamina and can just spam the jump button to hop up a hill to be awkward at best. From first person or even watching someone else attempt Dust 514's version of mountaineering. But I really like the idea of jumps that are specific to interactions with different elements of the environment. What would be really great for legion to do is build a movement system that would allow CCP to add those features over time. At least spend some time planning ahead so that they don't need to spend huge amounts of time and effort and risk causing game breaking bugs every time they want to change or add to how the characters interact with walls, or hills, or vehicles. For both third person and first person animations. It would be especially cool if first and third person animations were linked so all you had to do was change or add to the movement once and it would just work. Not sure if more contemporary game engines account for that. Not sure if it makes sense to try to build something like that into their current Frankenstein engine. But the time to do it is now. Not in 3 years time when the existing character movement model will feel even more dated, clumsy, unwieldy and artificial than it does today. Since they have to rebuild some very basic character movement/ environment interactions anyway, why not make that work as part of a system that can be built upon in the future? Instead of scrambling to create a more short term solution to one problem, that just becomes the source of other problems down the line.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6072	Posted - 2014.06.16 14:51:00 - [93] - Quote Kincate wrote: I was in early beta, bunny hoping was one among many problems. Frankly right now no one is saying it is a balance issue, it is just both stupid looking and a wholly outdated mechanic to have. If you are worring about low obsticles take the time and develop obsticle interaction, vaulting over something looks better than the bunny hops. If you arent going to do it because it is time consuming that is something by itself, but if you want immersion you need mechanics which allow you to interact with your enviornment. Right but so would jumping in the first place =P Only complaint anyone has had about the jumping mechanics is the ability to scale those small obstacles, so fix that and I can't help but wonder what the reason for jumping is at all save for trying to scale "Grabs-your-ankles-and-don't-let-go" mountain/hill I see where you're coming from though. I just figure that if a guy is sacrificing two/three plates worth of low-slots for Cardiac Regulators, he should be able to do something other than run for a longer period of time Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 314	Posted - 2014.06.16 20:43:00 - [94] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: I'm playing as a gallente scout for a while, and I agree with most thing that was told here. Once I try to make full proto BunnyHopping-fit, I don't remember exact numbers except that I was able to make 5 jumps and sprint for half match without resting(it was so stupid - IRL it's challenging to sprint extremely fast for longer than 2 minutes). I would like to see separation between sprinting and jumping, it would be so cool if those both things would not be depended on just one source(stamina) but on two. Some actions like crossing railings would consume both of them but not in way that jumping is more efficient. Also I would like to see Sniper Sway implemented to this mechanic(some-how) like in other games when you hold your breath and cross stop swaying for short amout of time. Beside, stamina or other rechargeable source should have impact on Inertia dampeners, because I think it is too safe for now. This mechanic should have a greater margin of error. Player should be able to turn it on when ever he wishes, but if he will turn it on too early or too late, he will not land safely. Everyone should be able to cross small obstacles(to size of railings) without having to jump, It should be flowing to them and not consume too much rechargeable 'powers', but at the same point players should not be able to do it forever, theres should be some boundaries. Heavy should not be able to hop, or jump in Legion - they do not need it, they are brick of health points already and as soon as they will be able to defeat railings they do not need to jump. ..and I run out of ideas No. Jumping and Sprinting needs to rely on the same source of stamina. Why? Imagine that you are Bioengineer, and someone ordered you to design humen that will be super soldier, weapon with extraordinary ability on battlefield that doesn't have to care about decay/material fatigue because it will have short life cycle. You may fail on making that kind of human but I'm sure that someone else would apply those abilities to exoskeleton - modern robots do not need heart and stamina to jump.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 89	Posted - 2014.06.19 07:28:00 - [95] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: yeah, we've definitely got some improvements to do in that area. It's still too janky and I also think we need to help players get over geometry like fences even if they can't... quite... reach! there should be a key to press for vaulting over fences or boxes, as well as "hugging" cover and for god's sake add the prone position in legion....and the ability to crawl/ roll
Ender Storm Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 171	Posted - 2014.06.22 18:17:00 - [96] - Quote Jumping. Remove it. You dont need it to trasverse obstacles, just to imitate the eastern bunny.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 906	Posted - 2014.06.22 18:51:00 - [97] - Quote Ender Storm wrote: Jumping. Remove it. You dont need it to trasverse obstacles, just to imitate the eastern bunny. But then why not just make legion a vehicle game? A western mech game? Why make a game with human combatants? We are hominoids. Jumping around is what we do. As much as any leporidae.
TechMechMeds Inner.Hell 3670	Posted - 2014.06.22 18:57:00 - [98] - Quote Remove the 3 dimensional aspect. 2D ftw with massive pixels. Remove movement altogether. Fanks. I will spam your face with aurum proto.


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