DUST Search - Sniper Rifles seeing no love in HOTFIX ALPHA

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

DJINN GITAXIS wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Poonmunch wrote:

Try sniping a fast-moving brick-tanked scout with the same sniper rig. Two shots, for the love of god. If you can hit it twice, that is. A scout?

I don't think it's reasonable to expect to 1 shot anything but a practically untanked scout, honestly.
In a game where someone paid ISK for that suit hitscan instakills from long range are not a good thing.

We're talking headshot bonus damage, and not having to unload 3 clips of a tactical into a heavy to kill it.

No, that specific part that I quoted was questioning why snipers weren't one shotting a form of bricktank.

3 clips of a tactical into a heavy is unreasonable, I agree. It needs to be able to kill them more efficiently than that.

Poonmunch wrote:

One of the devs told me (in these forums) that the new maps and sockets are being deliberately designed to hobble snipers. Are there any maps or sockets that deliberately hobble tanks, medics, scouts, forge guns, shotguns, dropships, cloaks, combat rifles or rail rifles?

Yes.

Manus Peak is not a map designed to go well with shotguns or cloaks.
The research facility doesn't work brilliantly with tanks.
Forge guns don't work in CQC maps like that either.

Combat rifles are ungodly powerful regardless of the map design though, yeah. But snipers aren't quite alone in having map design impede them.

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I-Shayz-I I-----I 3459	Posted - 2014.05.25 14:56:00 - [31] - Quote Remove sniper sway when first aiming down sights. Only have it apply when you line up your second shot after firing. "But you need time to line up your shot hen you're scoping" Okay...then why is it that ADSing any other rifle takes a fraction of a second and allows you to fire for perfect accuracy as long as you burst the trigger? Do this, and snipers will finally be able to leave the redline. Problem solved. /thread 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:03:00 - [32] - Quote I would rather have snipers in the red line.. than Call of Duty quick scoping contests..
boba's fetta Dead Man's Game 637	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:16:00 - [33] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Remove sniper sway when first aiming down sights. Only have it apply when you line up your second shot after firing. "But you need time to line up your shot hen you're scoping" Okay...then why is it that ADSing any other rifle takes a fraction of a second and allows you to fire for perfect accuracy as long as you burst the trigger? Do this, and snipers will finally be able to leave the redline. Problem solved. /thread personally i think that we need to remove the incentive for people to snipe from the redline or the ability to. its a difficult one caused by the bad bowl design maps we had saw the devs try to move away from till they stopped making maps. and there in lies the problem how can an issue caused by bad map design be fixed if there isnt going to be any new maps. removing sway altogether may just introduce a new breed of sniper wielding head shot machines. ive commented on this topic many many times before. its an issue that has been cropping up since i started playing. yes im boredof it but want it fixed.
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:16:00 - [34] - Quote Atiim wrote: Which reminds me. I should have that thread I was talking about made in about an hour or so. Can you get on Dust 514 right now?
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8845	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:25:00 - [35] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: While the statement is absolutely an example of said fallacy, your dismissing it is an equally good example of a straw man. Not quite sure how my dismissal is an example of the Strawman. Quote: A straw man is an intentional misrepresentation of an opponent's position, often used in debates with unsophisticated audiences to make it appear that the opponent's arguments are more easily defeated than they are. [1] Unintentional misrepresentations are also possible, but in this case, the individual is guilty only of simple ignorance. While their argument would still be fallacious, they can be at least excused of mallice. Was his argument a fallacy? Yes. Are fallacies valid in arguments? No. Therefore, his argument is fallacious drivel. That's not me misrepresenting his position, that's me coming to a logical conclusion based on the information provided. Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: The sniper rifle is absolutely abused by redline campers. You cannot deny this. The general drop in sniper rifle effectiveness has led to a drop in their usage, absolutely, but the fact remains: throughout DUST's history redline campers have made up a large proportion of snipers. Buffing the sniper rifle without addressing this core issue is no more than aiding and abetting. The core issue is the lack of incentive to use the Sniper Rifle outside the redline, as the reward is not worth the risk. Buffing it would solve that issue. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Why Do Slayers Get All The Credit? :( -HAND
Scheneighnay McBob T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan 5087	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:28:00 - [36] - Quote Their love is the armor nerf. BOOP!
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 945	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:33:00 - [37] - Quote DJINN GITAXIS wrote: Red Line Snipers 1. Not combat effective (generally very low kill counts) 2. If they concern you, counter them. (ADS, Tank, Sniper, OB) 3. Most of them are bad, the best sniping locations are outside of the red line You shouldn't get worked up defending the player base who refuses to counter snipers, or are too hapless and will consistently stand still so a sniper 500+ meters away can take an easy shot at them. This. There are vanishingly few good sniping spots on the maps that aren't close enough to the redline that a good scout can't rush in and pop the sniper and get away clean. HAVs and dropships can do this too. All the good sniper spots behind the redline can be counter-sniped. People who mindlessly sit in the redline are usually on teams that are losing (often losing badly). People who mindlessly sit in the redline are often pretty poor snipers. The best snipers run and gun. They grab spots inside and outside the redline, depending on the situation. Good snipers hack, drop uplinks and hives, cover and lock down NULL cannons and other hackable structures (sometimes 2 or 3 at once), snipe uplinks and hives, call in intel to their teams (because we can see the overall picture), snipe red guys calling in vehicles, even your odds when two or three reds jump you, cover you when you are hacking (you never even realize when I kill the two reds running at you to kill you), snipe swarm launcher users, wear different types of suits depending on the situation (cloaked scouts to get into very good positions outside the redline; commandos to carry sniper rifles, swarm launchers or rail rifles), snipe the guys on buildings who shoot you and spam grenades on you from above, carry explosives to attach to HAVs or hackable objects (I love doing this), jump into vehicles to rapidly move to important places where they can help quickly, snipe the reds that go after tanks at close quarters, break red momentum, bring that shuffling red sentinel to zero shields and half armor so you can kill him, hack red vehicles when the drivers jump out to hack, harass the reds so much that 3 jump into an LAV and go hunting for the sniper (a few minutes when those three are not shooting at you in CQC, hacking or defending objectives), shoot red medics and their patients, put bullets in downed reds - when you are busy defending yourself and can't finish them, harass reds so they have a harder time grouping together to rush you, counter-snipe and snipe guys with forge guns on tall buildings or perches trying to shoot red tanks. Learn to multitask and get good at all of the above. In pubs I sometimes shoot a distracted blue (it causes no damage) to alert him when a red or group of reds is approaching from behind or cloaked. I never do this in FW or PC, though. In order to get useful proto sniper rifles we have to claw our way up through essentially useless basic and advanced sniper rifles. We have to play far more games to reach cap each week. When we are out of ammo we have to take big risks to get to supply depots or we have to pop hives close to where we are (which kind of flags us). We have to learn to track and time shots on moving targets. This is tough with different speeds, jumping, cloaking and ground that is not flat. I love the challenge, though. We can't hipfire accurately like the CQC guys can. Just a few thoughts. Munch Anyone who buys AUR now is a fool.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 69	Posted - 2014.05.25 16:41:00 - [38] - Quote oh my... same guy, another sniper thread, and yet another comment about red line snipers...followed with the multitude ways of killing a sniper...again. if you have a problem with red lines try your own thread bobba. or am i wrong in assuming you also have an issue with forge gunners and rail tanks in the red lines? we don't use red lines because they mean people cant get to us, not the decent ones of us. we go to the best positions for the situation at hand and have been asking for better positions since last year... not our fault that we keep getting contrary folks on all of the sniper threads mate. we ask for the weapon we enjoy playing the game with to get some attention as the rest of the game has moved beyond the thing these rifles were balanced on. even we don't want blanket buffs that will reward the type of folk you keep talking about, they don't get regular headshots or even get many kills or for that matter much sp or w. we want to be rewarded for being good.
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2014.05.25 17:07:00 - [39] - Quote Snake Sellors wrote: oh my... same guy, another sniper thread, and yet another comment about red line snipers...followed with the multitude ways of killing a sniper...again. if you have a problem with red lines try your own thread bobba. or am i wrong in assuming you also have an issue with forge gunners and rail tanks in the red lines? we don't use red lines because they mean people cant get to us, not the decent ones of us. we go to the best positions for the situation at hand and have been asking for better positions since last year... not our fault that we keep getting contrary folks on all of the sniper threads mate. we ask for the weapon we enjoy playing the game with to get some attention as the rest of the game has moved beyond the thing these rifles were balanced on. even we don't want blanket buffs that will reward the type of folk you keep talking about, they don't get regular headshots or even get many kills or for that matter much sp or w. we want to be rewarded for being good. I like this.. this is good.. more of this.. less of qq'ing idiots. Would you like to qq? I think you are an idiot. The end.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13737	Posted - 2014.05.25 17:58:00 - [40] - Quote This thread is another excellent example of typical forum trash. This goes for both sides. Nobody here is actually discussing anything productively and practically this entire thread has been spent bashing on the other side rather than trying to get something productive discussed. OP, would you like to explain why you feel said buffs are necessary in your original post? If you just post your suggested buff and no justification with it then it's an invitation for terrible posting. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1

DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:04:00 - [41] - Quote Have you not seen the sister thread to this? The one with 4,000 views? The pages of justification. Keeping both bumped at the same time. There's not much left to explain. If you would like though I'll edit it.. hopefully not into a novel. Combine that with no DEV response.. and it spawns another thread hoping to get some attention before the next hot fix.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13738	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:08:00 - [42] - Quote DJINN GITAXIS wrote: Have you not seen the sister thread to this? The one with 4,000 views? The pages of justification. Keeping both bumped at the same time. There's not much left to explain. If you would like though I'll edit it.. hopefully not into a novel. Combine that with no DEV response.. and it spawns another thread hoping to get some attention before the next hot fix. I don't mean justification later in the thread, I mean in your initial post. If you don't justify it there, what kind of reply does that invite? Something like what Boba posted, and the kind of drivel that the thread quickly got filled with. I am no stranger to threadnaughts with no dev response - however, spamming the forum with more threads (but of worse quality) on the same topic won't encourage one. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:44:00 - [43] - Quote Your can of condensed sniper soup is now ready to ingest. (revisit the initial post)
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13739	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:47:00 - [44] - Quote Much better. Some of those are really indirect though. o_O You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
STABBEY Heaven's Lost Property 502	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:47:00 - [45] - Quote Why does a weapon that can 1-2 shot almost anything need "love" Gÿú GÖ¦ Gÿñ Gäó © sç+(¬GÇ+¬)sç+ (-éGîú¦Ç_Gîú¦ü)ßòñ Gû¼Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉ-Vet-GòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉ+¦Gû¼Gû¼ +¬(GùÅ¦«¦âGÇó)¦¦ (GùúGùó)GöîGê¬GöÉ (a+ç'¦Ç-'¦ü)a+ç GöîGê¬GöÉ(Gùú_Gùó)GöîGê¬GöÉ
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13741	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:49:00 - [46] - Quote STABBEY wrote: Why does a weapon that can 1-2 shot almost anything need "love" It can't, though. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:50:00 - [47] - Quote What weapon would that be plasma cannon? (also if by some miracle you were talking about the sniper rifle.. ask your corp mate Atiim who is also championing this effort.)
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8850	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:57:00 - [48] - Quote I'm not one to make excuses, but I'm almost done. I'm simply gathering data about the max rendering range of the Sniper Rifle, compared to the Absolute range of the Sniper Rifle, which will aid me in my argument about making the zoom adjustable. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Why Do Slayers Get All The Credit? :( -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8850	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:58:00 - [49] - Quote STABBEY wrote: Why does a weapon that can 1-2 shot almost anything need "love" Not you too. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Why Do Slayers Get All The Credit? :( -HAND
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:59:00 - [50] - Quote Atiim wrote: I'm not one to make excuses, but I'm almost done. I'm simply gathering data about the max rendering range of the Sniper Rifle, compared to the Absolute range of the Sniper Rifle, which will aid me in my argument about making the zoom adjustable. Adjustable zoom is a new game mechanic. I would like that to be included as part of either a sniper overhaul or with a new rifle altogether when the racial variants are released.

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13741	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:08:00 - [51] - Quote DJINN GITAXIS wrote: Atiim wrote: I'm not one to make excuses, but I'm almost done. I'm simply gathering data about the max rendering range of the Sniper Rifle, compared to the Absolute range of the Sniper Rifle, which will aid me in my argument about making the zoom adjustable. Adjustable zoom is a new game mechanic. I would like that to be included as part of either a sniper overhaul or with a new rifle altogether when the racial variants are released. This is not going to happen in DUST. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 947	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:19:00 - [52] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: STABBEY wrote: Why does a weapon that can 1-2 shot almost anything need "love" It can't, though. LOL! STABBEY, try sniping a fatty 550m away. Three shots sometimes four shots (all hits). With a proto sniper rifle, 3 complex damage mods, and a Cal commando (to get a decent damage bonus). This fatty, bye the way, is smaller than the aiming dot in the zoom reticle at 550m. Try sniping a fast-moving brick-tanked scout with the same sniper rig. Two shots, for the love of god. If you can hit it twice, that is. A scout? I think we snipers do have a legitimate concern here. Facts and data need to be used to look at our role, not idle speculation, trolls and misinformed perceptions (these are present on both sides, to be honest). Many other suits, weapons, armor and roles have been given attention over the past year. One of the devs told me (in these forums) that the new maps and sockets are being deliberately designed to hobble snipers. Are there any maps or sockets that deliberately hobble tanks, medics, scouts, forge guns, shotguns, dropships, cloaks, combat rifles or rail rifles? I just wish that we could look at this rationally with mature input from both sides. Munch Anyone who buys AUR now is a fool.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13741	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:22:00 - [53] - Quote Poonmunch wrote: Try sniping a fast-moving brick-tanked scout with the same sniper rig. Two shots, for the love of god. If you can hit it twice, that is. A scout? I don't think it's reasonable to expect to 1 shot anything but a practically untanked scout, honestly. In a game where someone paid ISK for that suit hitscan instakills from long range are not a good thing. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 29	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:24:00 - [54] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Poonmunch wrote: Try sniping a fast-moving brick-tanked scout with the same sniper rig. Two shots, for the love of god. If you can hit it twice, that is. A scout? I don't think it's reasonable to expect to 1 shot anything but a practically untanked scout, honestly. In a game where someone paid ISK for that suit hitscan instakills from long range are not a good thing. We're talking headshot bonus damage, and not having to unload 3 clips of a tactical into a heavy to kill it.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13741	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:26:00 - [55] - Quote DJINN GITAXIS wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Poonmunch wrote: Try sniping a fast-moving brick-tanked scout with the same sniper rig. Two shots, for the love of god. If you can hit it twice, that is. A scout? I don't think it's reasonable to expect to 1 shot anything but a practically untanked scout, honestly. In a game where someone paid ISK for that suit hitscan instakills from long range are not a good thing. We're talking headshot bonus damage, and not having to unload 3 clips of a tactical into a heavy to kill it. No, that specific part that I quoted was questioning why snipers weren't one shotting a form of bricktank. 3 clips of a tactical into a heavy is unreasonable, I agree. It needs to be able to kill them more efficiently than that. Poonmunch wrote: One of the devs told me (in these forums) that the new maps and sockets are being deliberately designed to hobble snipers. Are there any maps or sockets that deliberately hobble tanks, medics, scouts, forge guns, shotguns, dropships, cloaks, combat rifles or rail rifles? Yes. Manus Peak is not a map designed to go well with shotguns or cloaks. The research facility doesn't work brilliantly with tanks. Forge guns don't work in CQC maps like that either. Combat rifles are ungodly powerful regardless of the map design though, yeah. But snipers aren't quite alone in having map design impede them. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 29	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:31:00 - [56] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: DJINN GITAXIS wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Poonmunch wrote: Try sniping a fast-moving brick-tanked scout with the same sniper rig. Two shots, for the love of god. If you can hit it twice, that is. A scout? I don't think it's reasonable to expect to 1 shot anything but a practically untanked scout, honestly. In a game where someone paid ISK for that suit hitscan instakills from long range are not a good thing. We're talking headshot bonus damage, and not having to unload 3 clips of a tactical into a heavy to kill it. No, that specific part that I quoted was questioning why snipers weren't one shotting a form of bricktank. 3 clips of a tactical into a heavy is unreasonable, I agree. It needs to be able to kill them more efficiently than that. Poonmunch wrote: One of the devs told me (in these forums) that the new maps and sockets are being deliberately designed to hobble snipers. Are there any maps or sockets that deliberately hobble tanks, medics, scouts, forge guns, shotguns, dropships, cloaks, combat rifles or rail rifles? Yes. Manus Peak is not a map designed to go well with shotguns or cloaks. The research facility doesn't work brilliantly with tanks. Forge guns don't work in CQC maps like that either. Combat rifles are ungodly powerful regardless of the map design though, yeah. But snipers aren't quite alone in having map design impede them. You missed it though. ALL OF THE GALLENTE MAPS are "anti-sniper". You can snipe into exactly.. ZERO objectives. I don't think the developers anticipated cloaking + side strafing while hacking an objective.. 50% miss chance if moving + cloaked so not even sure where the guy is really can't anticipate crap. And on top of that I need to 2 shot the guy with a charge rifle? Good luck.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13741	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:36:00 - [57] - Quote DJIIN GITAXIS wrote: You missed it though. ALL OF THE GALLENTE MAPS are "anti-sniper". You can snipe into exactly.. ZERO objectives. I don't think the developers anticipated cloaking + side strafing while hacking an objective.. 50% miss chance if moving + cloaked so not even sure where the guy is really can't anticipate crap. And on top of that I need to 2 shot the guy with a charge rifle? Good luck. The Gallente research facility being anti-sniper is no worse than Manus Peak being anti-shotgun or the research facility being anti-tank. By sniping into an objective, do you mean direct LOS on a console or do you mean on the area around the objective? 50% miss chance is a completely random number you've thrown out, by the way. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
DJINN GITAXIS Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 29	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:43:00 - [58] - Quote You can only move around so much while still hacking a console. In most cases its back and forth. (50% hit chance really) I know this because I snipe objectives that are being hacked. (unless they have hacking modules and I'm not focusing on the point) In that case they're invisible and by the time I find them the point is hacked.
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 948	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:47:00 - [59] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Poonmunch wrote: Try sniping a fast-moving brick-tanked scout with the same sniper rig. Two shots, for the love of god. If you can hit it twice, that is. A scout? I don't think it's reasonable to expect to 1 shot anything but a practically untanked scout, honestly. In a game where someone paid ISK for that suit hitscan instakills from long range are not a good thing. This is a rational argument. I like rational arguments. I'm not asking to one shot a scout as long as the scout has to give up something to get brick tanked. Speed takes a penalty but they can still run pretty fast and are hard to detect. I pay 47k ISK for my Charge Sniper Rifle (the same as a Duvolle Assault Rifle or other very good light weapon) but a Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle (or other top of the line light weapon) can be bought for 77k ISK. My Thales (the top of the line sniper rifle) can't be purchased, only salvaged (very rarely). That tanked scout can pop me once with a shotgun in the back of the head and I'm off to the clone vats. Is it fair to ask that I get the same opportunity? Munch Anyone who buys AUR now is a fool.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13742	Posted - 2014.05.25 19:49:00 - [60] - Quote While strafing on consoles may be a problem for snipers, reducing the ability to do that would have huge knock-on effects throughout the rest of the game. If you could OHKO the hacker, that immediately catapults the sniper to a very, very powerful level - overly so. If you can easily instantly kill people at long range with zero opportunity for them to react to you or attempt to protect themselves from you, that's overpowered. If 2 shotting people on a console is a problem for snipers, what do you suggest the solution to that is? I agree that it's a problem if it's taking multiple clips to down anything but I don't think OHKOing anything but the least tanked of targets is reasonable. Also, I'd like to ask again - do you think it's reasonable for a sniper to have direct line of sight on a console? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1



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