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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14347	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:07:00 - [1] - Quote The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tericide would do. Teiricide is not only the removal of teirs but introduction of roles. The problem with the current system is that A < B on the simple grounds that B is A+1. Undera more ideal teiricide system A = B on the grounds that neither have anything better than the other in every way. Both do different things their own ways. Of course imperfection or needs of roles will skew the popularity between A and B the two can find competition in various performances. Dust 514 however if a tericide where to happen we are likely to see a removal of roles and a focus on roles. Where Assault Lineup A [militia]< B [basic frame] < E [basic specialist] < C[adv frame] < F [adv specialist] < D [Proto Frame] < G [Proto Specialist] Would likely turns into An Assault suit that emphasizes the Assault Role and performs it well. and developer time willing then A second assault suit that may have a similar but different approach to the role in the same race. With possible third fourth and more. Where no one assault suit is numerically just better because it's a tier 9 but better because its closer to what the player wants to play as. This would also mean majority of the new stats and the like may see a major shift away from the suits and may dump veterancy onto the skills instead; or maybe modules get a stronger emphasis or a mix of the two; it sup to ccp if they do the teiricide. I am in support where the modules remain largely the same in line up and may absorb more of the cost of the suit squash. But I am open to hearing other possible models of role focus over power focus. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2256	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:10:00 - [2] - Quote Good post +1. Though it's spelled "Tiercide" ("tier" + "-cide") not "Teiricide" Nerdier than thou
Vitharr Foebane Living Like Larry Schwag 1057	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:11:00 - [3] - Quote Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics III I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14350	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:17:00 - [4] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles Can't talk about it at the moment. Maybe after fanfest. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14351	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:27:00 - [5] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Good post +1. Though it's spelled "Tiercide" ("tier" + "-cide") not "Teiricide" Thank you tiercide is always redlined on mine and its a bad habbit I never overcame. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2844	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:27:00 - [6] - Quote People were seriously confused about the meaning of the word Thats why we cant have nice things I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world because th
DJINN Stephani 235	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:29:00 - [7] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles Can't talk about it at the moment. Maybe after fanfest. "20,000 years in the future"
Vitharr Foebane Living Like Larry Schwag 1057	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:30:00 - [8] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles Can't talk about it at the moment. Maybe after fanfest. Hmmm... whispers Blink once for yes and twice for no are they releasing the next build soon Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics III I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14351	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:36:00 - [9] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles Can't talk about it at the moment. Maybe after fanfest. Hmmm... whispers Blink once for yes and twice for no are they releasing the next build soon Stares Unblinking CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1152	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:44:00 - [10] - Quote You make it sound pretty nice but I worry that it will only dumb things down like it did for vehicles.

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14352	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:45:00 - [11] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: You make it sound pretty nice but I worry that it will only dumb things down like it did for vehicles. vehicles where overdone then again the previous offerings where an effing terrible mess. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2325	Posted - 2014.04.28 16:58:00 - [12] - Quote There are so many ways that Dust and Eve are different. The reason that the variety of roles CAN exist in Eve is not limited too: -The rate of fire, tracking ability, and reload of turrets/launchers are all automated in eve, outsourcing the damage application to the client. -Damage application in Eve is more about positioning than any kind of 'turret game', -Targets rotate around the 'shooter' in 3 axis, while in dust this is mostly 2 -Damage projection is a function of the interplay between the 'virtual hitboxes' of sig radius and the 'rotation speed' of turrets in addition to falloff, optimal range, and some other factors. This only has meaning because the damage application is largely automatic. -In a system where damage application is MUCH MORE analog/manual the equivelencies of 'role differentiation' are FALSE. To have the kind 'role depth' of cruiser > destroyer > frigate interplay between dropsuits assumes some things about the damage application that don't yet exist in the game, and I have not yet seen displayed.
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 998	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:01:00 - [13] - Quote tiercide i feel is pointless for dust atm, there isnt enough variety with dropsuits, also there is also 1 dropsuit per class. Dust needs more role bonuses to make different dropsuits substantially more different from each other, tiercide would only truly work if we had say 4 different galente assault suits to choose from and 1 was obviously superior to the other 3. Nemo me impune lacessit
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14353	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:08:00 - [14] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: There are so many ways that Dust and Eve are different. The reason that the variety of roles CAN exist in Eve is not limited too: -The rate of fire, tracking ability, and reload of turrets/launchers are all automated in eve, outsourcing the damage application to the client. -Damage application in Eve is more about positioning than any kind of 'turret game', -Targets rotate around the 'shooter' in 3 axis, while in dust this is mostly 2 -Damage projection is a function of the interplay between the 'virtual hitboxes' of sig radius and the 'rotation speed' of turrets in addition to falloff, optimal range, and some other factors. This only has meaning because the damage application is largely automatic. -In a system where damage application is MUCH MORE analog/manual the equivelencies of 'role differentiation' are FALSE. To have the kind 'role depth' of cruiser > destroyer > frigate interplay between dropsuits assumes some things about the damage application that don't yet exist in the game, and I have not yet seen displayed. Even then having tires that do nothing is unhealthy for the game to keep them in as is. This will also go a long way to empowering newer players at least. That the power differences are not 500% apart in some cases. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14355	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:11:00 - [15] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: tiercide i feel is pointless for dust atm, there isnt enough variety with dropsuits, also there is also 1 dropsuit per class. Dust needs more role bonuses to make different dropsuits substantially more different from each other, tiercide would only truly work if we had say 4 different galente assault suits to choose from and 1 was obviously superior to the other 3. Like I said the current likely route is a squash before the flattening expands out. Until CCP can shove more hooks into being bonusable as well as more weapons; equipment; modules we are likely not going to be able to add a second role to any of the lineups. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1331	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:29:00 - [16] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. ... blah blah TL;DR If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that.
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1331	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:31:00 - [17] - Quote PS: Please see "Armored Core". Make dropsuit builds more like that, if you want true "tiericide". kthxbai
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2262	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:37:00 - [18] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. ... blah blah TL;DR If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that. No, he really shouldn't work on that. In fact, as someone involved in Dust's design process, he should do the opposite. Complex ideas require complex expressions. Nothing of real worth can be expressed in a mere few sentences. That's why Twitter is such a cesspool- 140 characters leaves no room for nuanced meaning. Nerdier than thou
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14360	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:39:00 - [19] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. ... blah blah TL;DR If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that. "Empowering player decisions and rewarding those decisions." CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1686	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:44:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: You make it sound pretty nice but I worry that it will only dumb things down like it did for vehicles. vehicles where overdone then again the previous offerings where an effing terrible mess. I really hope something gets done about vehicle module progression. If the hulls are going to remain tiericided as they are (no ADV and PRO vehicle hulls), then there has to be more distinction between module tiers other than just cooldown times. Passive mods are fine, since they are tiered. Active modules are problematic because they all provide the same buffs across all tiers. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14363	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:47:00 - [21] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: You make it sound pretty nice but I worry that it will only dumb things down like it did for vehicles. vehicles where overdone then again the previous offerings where an effing terrible mess. I really hope something gets done about vehicle module progression. If the hulls are going to remain tiericided as they are (no ADV and PRO vehicle hulls), then there has to be more distinction between module tiers other than just cooldown times. Passive mods are fine, since they are tiered. Active modules are problematic because they all provide the same buffs across all tiers. Right; just need to be careful to keep relevance with the vehicles though. Right now the tiericide stripped them quite a bit and too much of the vehicle is now reliant on their modules itself which is further reducing veterancy of vehicles. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 941	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:50:00 - [22] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. Tiericide is not only the removal of teirs but introduction/enforcement of roles. The problem with the current system is that A < B on the simple grounds that B is A+1. Under a more ideal tiericide system A = B on the grounds that neither have anything better than the other in every way. Both do different things their own ways. Of course imperfection or needs of roles will skew the popularity between A and B the two can find competition in various performances. Dust 514 however if a tericide where to happen we are likely to see a removal of power and a return to focus on roles. Where Assault Lineup A [militia]< B [basic frame] < E [basic specialist] < C[adv frame] < F [adv specialist] < D [Proto Frame] < G [Proto Specialist] Would likely turns into An Assault suit that emphasizes the Assault Role and performs it well. and developer time willing then A second assault suit that may have a similar but different approach to the role in the same race. With possible third fourth and more as time goes on. In this environment no one assault suit is numerically just better because it's a tier 9 (current setup) but better because its closer to what the player wants to play as and has built his skills and fittings around that role strongly. This would also mean majority of the new stats and the like may see a major shift away from the suits and may dump veterancy onto the skills instead; or maybe modules get a stronger emphasis or a mix of the two; it is up to ccp if and how they do the tiericide. I am in support where the modules remain largely the same in line-up and may absorb more of the cost of the suit squash. Other models includes a module squash; or a skill tree flourish (more RPG like) or mixes and focuses of each. But I am open to hearing other possible models of role focus over power focus and of course any questions concerning how teiricide works and what it is supposed to do. I always thought the current tiers are somewhat stupid and horribly hard to balance. You get either too powerfull or the difference is not worth the SP/ISK investment. Although I do not play EVE I find the tiercide Idea very interestion and more important promising.
A recent Recruit Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 26	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:53:00 - [23] - Quote I agree, proto gear shouldn't give a boost to basic stats like CPU, PG, Slots, etc, buy should offer a variety of options were players can diversify and become more specialised. Proto suits should have extra bonus's to either or fitting costs/skills/slots, to allow players to pick between more grenade capacity and equipment (more self sufficient, leas survivability) or more slots and PG & CPU (more survivability, but less self sufficient), or faster reload and ammo capacity (more of a suppressive role) or less spread and faster ads (precision/sharpshooter/marksmen) role. This way you have 4 proto assault suits that allow you to play as an Assault style player, but each to a varying degree that impacts slightly on your playstyle.
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 318	Posted - 2014.04.28 17:58:00 - [24] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: tiercide i feel is pointless for dust atm, there isnt enough variety with dropsuits, also there is also 1 dropsuit per class. Dust needs more role bonuses to make different dropsuits substantially more different from each other, tiercide would only truly work if we had say 4 different galente assault suits to choose from and 1 was obviously superior to the other 3. Gallente assault G-I, G/1-Series, gk.0. Thats 3 different gallente assault suits to choose from, where 1 is obviously superior to the other 2 (ignoring aurum suits). After tiericide you just buy a gallente assault suit and then the difference between new players and vets is their respective skill levels and what they can fit. One of the benefits of tiericide is that it reduces the gap between new and old players, we don't need more skills widening that gap. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8141	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:02:00 - [25] - Quote CCP has been known to do well with tiericides in Eve Online. Each tier of the ships retains an ability that other tiers lack. Case in point: Exhumers. Before Tieracide Exhumers >Skiff - Mining yield bonus with bonus to Mercoxit mining and some cargo space. >>Mackinaw - Some more mining yield with bonus to Ice mining. Has more cargo space. >>>Hulk - Best mining Yield with bonus to yield. Has the best cargo space. Notice the arrows next to the ships indicating that you needed to train up the Skiff first before using the Mackinaw and you have to train up the Mackinaw before training the Hulk. After Tieracide Exhumers >Skiff - Bonus to Mercoxit mining but with excellent tanking and warping capabilities for low/null-sec operations. Now often being used as part of a gate-camping fleet due to their high targeting resolution and battleship-like tank against the gate guns. Also the best choice for ninja mining in dangerous areas of space. >Mackinaw - Bonus to Ice mining now with excellent hauling space for ore (up to 35,000m3 of space) but suffers a loss in tanking capabilities due to the expanded cargo hold. The best choice for AFK miners. >Hulk - Not much tank or cargo space, but does offer a tremendous bonus to mining yield making them the best choice for high-yield mining operations. Notice the arrows again signifying that you only need to train up Exhumers to level 1 to access all ships. Further training of this skill will then be used to enhance the ships affected. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3034	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:03:00 - [26] - Quote Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 374	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:10:00 - [27] - Quote yeah I guess I'm still not understanding tiericide. It sounds like the variations we used to have with the suits where there was an 'A' variant and a 'B' variant. I vaguely remember two ADV suits for the same race, one had more shields less armour than the other. Something like that. So you could either choose the one that gave you a little more shield, or a little more armour. And there might've been a speed different between them too. I can't remember On a side note: I just used the Quick Reply drop-down to post this - never ever noticed that before in a year of frequenting these forums LOL You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1156	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:14:00 - [28] - Quote So tell me if I got this straight iron wolf, your vision of tiercide is to make the suits more like the current dropship classes (bare with me) where you have the std and then the ADS? Keep the suits relatively the same but have more skill branches for more specialized suits? Eg. Cal basic then front line then assault and have each be a little different in terms of passive skills (to fit different roles) but keep the suits relatively the same fitting wise and stat wise? So would specialized suits cost more? Or would they be the same price as std? Sure they get a bonus but how much %? How much more for that %? I could see this working so long as the skills make skilling into the suits worth it, and make damn sure there is a bonus per level no unlock at lvl 1,3,5 cause that wastes precious sp and would make the game rather dull. modules have to stay tiered, non tiered vehicle mods make fitting really dull (although that might have also been the slot removal and pg/cpu Nerf too) and unbalanced. Weapons stay tiered, wouldn't make any sense to do this to weapons what are you paying for if not more killing power. ... So really your just suggesting tiercide for suits then?
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8142	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:15:00 - [29] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8142	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:20:00 - [30] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: I could see this working so long as the skills make skilling into the suits worth it, and make damn sure there is a bonus per level no unlock at lvl 1,3,5 cause that wastes precious sp and would make the game rather dull. modules have to stay tiered, non tiered vehicle mods make fitting really dull (although that might have also been the slot removal and pg/cpu Nerf too) and unbalanced. Weapons stay tiered, wouldn't make any sense to do this to weapons what are you paying for if not more killing power. ... So really your just suggesting tiercide for suits then? Eve Online still has tiered modules and guns despite experiencing a tieracide of its ships. But so far it worked out very well for everyone and no one in Eve is complaining about it. But I do agree that with the tieracide it will effectively give purpose to those SP sinks you are referring to. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor

MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 495	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:26:00 - [31] - Quote Just tell me that infantry side tiercide will be nothing like the tiercide that vehicles got in 1.7 and tiercide has my full support. R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2266	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:33:00 - [32] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Django Quik wrote: Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. By the same token, though, the tiered system really doesn't make up for the lack of content. I don't buy into the false depth that is differing suit tiers. There's nothing interesting about beating down a STD Cal Assault with a PRO Cal Assault. Nerdier than thou
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 578	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:39:00 - [33] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Good post +1. Though it's spelled "Tiercide" ("tier" + "-cide") not "Teiricide" Actually, it should be tiericide. Like suicide, homicide, regicide, fratricide, etc. The I is the connector to the suffix meaning "to kill." Omnia mutantur nihil interit FW lvl10 reward
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1156	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:40:00 - [34] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Django Quik wrote: Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. Ah so he was meaning eve style tiercide, yes we don't have enough content for that. Sorry really early here and catching a 15 hrs flight in a bit. without the other races vehicles, or other aerial vehicles of a similar class eg dropship, gunship, logiship = Medium aerial vehicle operation skill and then assault and other specialization skills, the tiercide wouldn't be very effective. For now we should focus on content, then lump it all up together when we have enough that it would make a difference.
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1332	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:46:00 - [35] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. ... blah blah TL;DR If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that. "Empowering player decisions and rewarding those decisions." Fail. That's about equivalent to "Let's enhance productivity by leveraging synnergy!!" It doesnt communicate any actual information. it's pure marketing. Seriously, if you cant communicate the heart of your proposal, in 3 sentences, then you fail at proposal-making. Details are nice. Details are required. But you have to have a USEFUL SUMMARY FIRST, so people can judge whether it is worth their time to actually read the details. Hint: there are a million and one forum posts with subject lines like, "The REAL problem with xyz". They all fail, and deserve to, first of all because they think they have authority to claim that, and secondly because they have demonstrated they are too mentally deficient to even put a useful subject line together. Therefore, anything else they have to say will be similarly mentally deficient.
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1332	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:52:00 - [36] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Just tell me that infantry side tiercide will be nothing like the tiercide that vehicles got in 1.7 and tiercide has my full support. I actually like what they did to vehicle modules, organizationally. I wish there were more options for modules. but at a high level, I like what they did. It made it much more straightforward to choose the style of vehicle you want to run, and then actually put it together. (The OP-ness of assorted weaponry and modules is a completely separate issue.)
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2327	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:54:00 - [37] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. ... blah blah TL;DR If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that. "Empowering player decisions and rewarding those decisions." Your idea does not really explain the HOW of that though. From a business point of view, extra SP is valuable only insofar as it buys relatively equal power over equal spans of time. As the utility of new SP declines, so does the need to log on to gain it. A role progression system must be balanced with a business mindset that reflects this reality. The extent to which you 'reduce the gap' between brand new, and old players WILL BE the extent to which you destroy the business model that drives people to log on to get meaningful amounts of SP. Less useful SP over time will mean less reason to pay/log on/squad/lead squads/teach new players etc/feed the system. The alternative is a business model is a CONTENT PROGRESSION system that provides increased utility for the diversity of possible roles a player skills into over time (in eve this is more about career diversity rather than pvp roles). To the extent you make the skill tree the CORE aspect of your content progression system, is the extent to which you gamble on the community's rationality to choose a self-balancing ecosystem of role-reward relationships. The biggest beef I have about the PIE IN THE SKY Panacea of 'Tiericide' is that it does just this. It is asking CCP to make the culture of progression within the game revolve around the skill tree. I would not be excited for this kind of development formula. I would rather see a kind of content progression that reinforces the Price-buys-power system that we have now. The extent to which losses are more guaranteed within PvP or to which power is less relavant in PvE will be the extent to which budgeting your suits, exploiting various resources within the game, building relationships that leverage your power, and studying and outmanuevering your opponent across the geography of the region will make the meta-progression outshine the current limitations of 'price-buys-power'.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2266	Posted - 2014.04.28 18:55:00 - [38] - Quote Ander Thedas wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Good post +1. Though it's spelled "Tiercide" ("tier" + "-cide") not "Teiricide" Actually, it should be tiericide. Like suicide, homicide, regicide, fratricide, etc. The I is the connector to the suffix meaning "to kill." Hmm, so it should be. I stand corrected. Nerdier than thou
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2591	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:00:00 - [39] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Django Quik wrote: Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. I call bull... yeah we dont have 46 variations of dropsuits yet but we could just as easily apply eve's tiercide mechanics to dust's dropsuits TODAY. On top of that, less labor is required to balance future assets as they are released. It is a win-win to tiercide dropsuits asap. Exhumer's did not need supercaptial ships being released before tiercide made sense, and neither does existing dust assets need future assets before tiercide makes sense. Tiercide today, less work tomorrow.
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 495	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:10:00 - [40] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Just tell me that infantry side tiercide will be nothing like the tiercide that vehicles got in 1.7 and tiercide has my full support. I actually like what they did to vehicle modules, organizationally. I wish there were more options for modules. but at a high level, I like what they did. It made it much more straightforward to choose the style of vehicle you want to run, and then actually put it together. (The OP-ness of assorted weaponry and modules is a completely separate issue.) What they did was take all the fun things vehicles had and then threw it out the window. Replaced that with boring straightforward stuff with very limited options how to fit stuff, removed the "spider tanking" element of vehicles, all the interesting fittings you could make, the slots and then in the end we were left with 6 main module types all in all: active hardeners, extenders/plates, repairs/boosters, nitrous/afterburner, scanners and damage mods. And then of course 3 more secondary types: CPU upgrades, PG upgrades and ammo upgrades. We used to have: plates(60/120/180)/extenders, active harderners, passive hardeners, active repair modules/boosters, passive shield repair modules, damage modules, active tracking modules, passive tracking modules, active heat sinks, passive heat sinks, spool-up time reducers, scanners, nitrous/afterburner, remote reppers/transporters and I'm sure I forgot something. And the secondary ones: CPU, PG, hull upgrades and overdrives. I'm sure I forgot to mention something here as well. Also all the turret types... there were many, oh, so many. And then the skills, oh man, the skills, they actually did more than just unlock stuff. R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8145	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:14:00 - [41] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Django Quik wrote: Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. I call bull... yeah we dont have 46 variations of dropsuits yet but we could just as easily apply eve's tiercide mechanics to dust's dropsuits TODAY. On top of that, less labor is required to balance future assets as they are released. It is a win-win to tiercide dropsuits asap. Exhumer's did not need supercaptial ships being released before tiercide made sense, and neither does existing dust assets need future assets before tiercide makes sense. Tiercide today, less work tomorrow. I can give you one clear example why tieraciding the Dust suits TODAY would be a bad idea. Heavy weapons for Heavy suits. Or... lack of Heavy weapons I should say. Right now we only have 2 (two) heavy weapons available. One is Caldari (I think) which is the forge gun and the other is Minmatar which is the HMG. The Amarr and Gallente variant is still not available. If CCP does the tieracide for all suits without the remaining the heavy weapons, then the tieracide will only be balanced around two weapons instead of all four for the heavy suits. This is not the way to go about balancing especially when you have to later waste more time rebalancing old weapons with new ones of the exact same class as they come in. The same can be said for nova knives. There is only one racial set and that is the Caldari Nova Knives. There are suppose to be three other racial knives coming later on. This will likely involve the scouts especially the Minmatar Scout since it's a Minmatar suit using a Caldari Knife (go figure). Now, if you tieracide just the medium suits we'll have no problem since every light weapon and sidearm has finally been made available for every race. But then again all the heavy and scout players will feel left out if just the mediums get the tieracide. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
byte modal 65	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:17:00 - [42] - Quote Forgive my ignorance as I'm just passively reading along the related threads, but at this stage in the game I'm not sure exactly how this will make a difference? Speaking strictly to the gap between new-comers and so-called "vets," I just don't get it? Maybe 1) I'm looking too far into some of the random supporting comments that this will help lesson the gap or 2) I'm assuming way too much of your arguments, but with current modules as they are, those with more SP will still fit better (stronger) gear and fit it more efficiently. The gap will remain, no? Logging in as a newbie I should be able to skill into std. ARs, but I'm still going up against Duvolles, with better shielding, damage mods, etc. What am I missing? I guess in theory it could provide a foundation for future possible development of suits in balance, but that's assuming the player base follows suit by actually taking up those roles. I mean we currently have so called tiers with scout, heavy, logistics, and medium frames. Just as they are currently, would not the min/max players work to game the tiered system for the most direct DPS options anyway? This is technically an FPS still... that's a hard mindset to break. Sure, suit breakdown comparisons only, yeah OK I guess I can get behind the concept of tiercide, but I don't see what good it will do while so little options exist to begin with. Too, suits do not exist in a vacuum. As long as I can drop a proto-level weapon into my standard frame (or whatever you would like to call it after the transmutation), I'm still taking down new players that aren't as skilled SP-wise to put out the same damage. A specialized logistic may have a blast with his new specialization, but the moment he's obliterated for not being able to defend himself at a level of his attacker, I imagine that player would take more of an assault posture from that point forward just to stay alive. What I'm trying to get at, I suppose, is that there are far more variables and problems at play here than just suit stacks. I don't see this really fixing anything. Not currently at least. I still believe the introductory stages of any new player and the proper placement of that player within a moderately balanced (skill-wise) pool of competition would go much farther. Hell, just throwing new players back into auto-squads would go some distance in pushing team play that could in time reinforce the division of roles that tiercide one day may offer. At that point, assuming a much greater depth of content, then sure. I can see that all playing out----in context of everything else. But not without it. If true, then I seriously have to question the desire to spend time conceptualizing and developing this as opposed to what seems to me as more pressing new player-experience issues. What am I missing? Honest =\ Irony: Post #35
lampwizard Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:19:00 - [43] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: introduction/enforcement of roles. Don't go too specific with this or you'll remove playstyles. A suit needs some fitting flexibility. Otherwise there's less of a point to the modules that a player decides to fit.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 15	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:20:00 - [44] - Quote First things i first, tiericide is a terrible idea. It was introduced into a non-FPS game to balanced problems in EVE which are not in Dust 514. While i completely agree that matchmaking is broken, dividing matches based on gear to separate and highlight role performance is an invalid argument. I would also like to point out the phrase, "we would likely to see return to balance of power" is also completely false. In fact it is misleading, if we were to follow your argument the balanced based on tiers would actually increase the gap of power and not close it. So tiericide will be/is a mechanism that rewards those who are already holding the advantage. There is 0 truth to balance based upon gear, the only logical solution to matchmaking is a system which balances based upon skill level (average WP + SP of individual or if people are in a squad then the top 3 members or the squad). And there is 0 truth that balancing based on gear will reward specialization, while in fact Dust punishes specialization (in infantry, obviously not vehicles). Here is where you contradict yourself, you want to see modules and an importance placed on skills... Yea great idea, why not just reward the elite SP guys more. You make a suggestion and then one paragraph later you suggest something that is in direct contrast to your balanced game outlook. You have completely thrown out balance for rewarding those able to get high level mods (get the bonuses) and then equip them, immediately creating a disadvantage in a match. I will look past how you suggest you can dump effort into both or want to completely change up the skills, the skills are not even close to being the problem, and frankly neither are the mods. This tiericide idea is also garbage. The logic is flawed, the solution which is trying to be addressed only widens the problem and doesn't address it. I know what you are trying to do, you see CCP has used the theory before in EVE and it did a good job at balancing battles by capping the ships, creating a cap is good for a game with such wild advantages built into its game design. But dust514 isn't like EVE, the ceiling so to speak is only around 26m SP. While that seems high the difference between most lv4-5 skills is marginal and one can easily compete with a 26m SP player at around 16-18m SP. The real,problem lies in how matches are determined, they should be divided into a tier system based on SP + skill. So that it would look something like: If we agree that 26m is a ceiling we can use the tiericide concept and use that as the maximum tier. Any player within 4m SP may be drawn into a game. Beginners: 0-4m Battle Academy. Simply stated that all basic gear, basic suits, basic vehicles are unlocked. Players will be given more default options, they will be able to call in and use anything they want and ISK will not be available to be spent or used. They will receive ISK payouts, but only have access to them once they leave the academy. 5-9m SP, the Novice or Beginner Matches. Once a player has finished the academy, his skills will be reset and he will have the option of which class, weapon etc to specialize in. The ISK he has gained will then become available to him so that he may buy gear and skill books. The ceiling will be 9m, it's about the time people are able to get a Proto suit, have sufficient core skills, and are on their way to maxing out their primary weapon (and prof) and have spent a good deal of time playing the game against similarly skilled opponents. Only militia vehicles can be used under 9m SP. This is very important. Intermediate: 10-14m SP and 15-19m SP are the intermediate classes. These classes will see std vehicles, begin to see Proto type gear, weapons, and are likely to begin to see squads. Players, based on skill, will be selected to either the lower tier or the upper tier of this class based on skill as well as their SP. So a player with lower skill but 16m SP can be placed in matches with someone who matches their skill level, as to create a balanced match. Its a little bit of an over so implication. But a player will receive a score based on his WP + skill and be placed in matches with similar scores. So players between 10-19m SP will see each other, while not seeing another below 9m SP are anyone above 20m SP. This of course will work because players will not be leaving the game, because a balanced match due to the division by SP + WP will make matches competitive, balanced, fun. Advanced: After 20m SP it will be a FFA. Their will be a score given to a player which will indicate who he will be matches up against, a skill score. That will determine the level of his competition, there can be a few tiers here, say weaker players are in scout tier, good players are in assault tier, great players are in assault tier, and the best of the best are in sentinel tier. You can be matched against people only in the tier above and below you, meaning the games are competitive. A matchmaking system based on gear and the idea of specialization being a strong point is a terrible idea. The separation based on SP and skill is the only, i repeat only, solution. It fixes the NPE, it fixes Proto stomps, or q-sync'ing stomping etc...
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 399	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:20:00 - [45] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: You make it sound pretty nice but I worry that it will only dumb things down like it did for vehicles. I feel like tiericide actually improves the situation. As IWS points out, the tiers are just "better" versions of the lower-tier items. So the only purpose they really serve is not to provide more variety but to provide a simple trade-off between ISK and performance. Killing any tiers where unequivocally MTL < STD < ADV < PRO would put greater emphasis on designing variants rather than just upgrades. Personally, I would like to extend what I call "minor tiericide" to all items in the way that it exists with shield extenders and armor plates. Everything improvement is balanced by a negative. For example, a rifle that gets higher damage at the advanced and proto level also gets higher kick. A profile dampener reduces scan radius by an increasing percentage. Give every positive a negative and it's no longer just about spending more money to get something better, it's about a trade-off. On the other hand, if suits receive tiericide, you may not have enough CPU and PG to fit everything proto, and so your trade-off will be whether you want a more powerful weapon or a more effective armor rep. The important take-away is that every advantage comes with a disadvantage. And that means more variety, not less. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2591	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:26:00 - [46] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Django Quik wrote: Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. I call bull... yeah we dont have 46 variations of dropsuits yet but we could just as easily apply eve's tiercide mechanics to dust's dropsuits TODAY. On top of that, less labor is required to balance future assets as they are released. It is a win-win to tiercide dropsuits asap. Exhumer's did not need supercaptial ships being released before tiercide made sense, and neither does existing dust assets need future assets before tiercide makes sense. Tiercide today, less work tomorrow. I can give you one clear example why tieraciding the Dust suits TODAY would be a bad idea. Heavy weapons for Heavy suits. Or... lack of Heavy weapons I should say. Right now we only have 2 (two) heavy weapons available. One is Caldari (I think) which is the forge gun and the other is Minmatar which is the HMG. The Amarr and Gallente variant is still not available. If CCP does the tieracide for all suits without the remaining the heavy weapons, then the tieracide will only be balanced around two weapons instead of all four for the heavy suits. This is not the way to go about balancing especially when you have to later waste more time rebalancing old weapons with new ones of the exact same class as they come in. The same can be said for nova knives. There is only one racial set and that is the Caldari Nova Knives. There are suppose to be three other racial knives coming later on. This will likely involve the scouts especially the Minmatar Scout since it's a Minmatar suit using a Caldari Knife (go figure). Now, if you tieracide just the medium suits we'll have no problem since every light weapon and sidearm has finally been made available for every race. But then again all the heavy and scout players will feel left out if just the mediums get the tieracide. I guess I don't understand, current heavy suits do just fine atm, why would removing tiers on heavy suits cause any problems? Just cause eve has turret bonuses doesn't mean dust needs to have gun bonuses on everything. We could just as easily release a new specialized variant down the road that has heavy weaponry bonus after all of the heavy weapons have been added. We could just give basic frames ehp or fitting bonuses and everything is still in place. Basic Heavy Frame bonus could easily just be 3% PG/CPU per level or something simple. There is a benefit to devoting SP into basic frames but its not a massive power differential that PRO heavy vs STD heavy suffers now. Removing std and adv tier heavy suits and giving new players pro suits doesn't do anything but level the playing field for new players some. yes there is still a difference between a heavy with HMG maxed out and a heavy with HMG at Op 1 but its not as silly as it is now.
Autoaim Bot514 The Hetairoi 91	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:35:00 - [47] - Quote I'll just leave this here... Autoaim Bot514 wrote: Heres how it would work, as I imagine it: Take the unbonused frame suits (light med and heavy) and keep the ADV as the new militia variants, none of which would require SP. The pro, you get to try out these suits, but they dont specialized, dont get any kind of bonus. basically, they are there for you to try out, find your playstyle before you commit SP. Now, regular suits. All suits are to be replaced by their Proto equivilent. Example: To unlock a minmatar Logi suit, you need to invest first in the Minmatar Dropsuit skill (this replaces the min light, med and heavy suit skills, SP sinks as they are). Different tiers of this skill unlock the different types of suit, similarly to todays dropsuit command skill, which I would remove. 1=Assault, 3=Scout,pilot, 5= sentinel, etc. Minmatar Dropsuits 3 > Minmatar Logistics 1 = todays proto min logi. Now, this suit will not be at its full potential, but you have the same amount of slots as everyone else and fitting. But, with the skill at just 1, you wont be as powerful, but you will be close. As you add more SP to the suit skill it gets better. Caldari Dropsuits 5 > Caldari Commando 1 = todays proto Calcommando. etc TL;DR: all suits are now protosuits, SP just makes them better thru bonuses, nearly equalizing suits thru fitting, and not relying on "content = variety"
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1333	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:44:00 - [48] - Quote Cotsy wrote: While i completely agree that matchmaking is broken, dividing matches based on gear to separate and highlight role performance is an invalid argument. I would also like to point out the phrase, "we would likely to see return to balance of power" is also completely false. In fact it is misleading, if we were to follow your argument the balanced based on tiers would actually increase the gap of power and not close it. your post is very long.. but unfortunately spends most of it on describing, and not enough justifying. You seem to think the use of the word 'logical', makes your argument magicaly logical, without actually providing logical grounding to it. For example: Cotsy wrote: There is 0 truth to balance based upon gear, the only logical solution to matchmaking is a system which balances based upon skill level (average WP + SP of individual or if people are in a squad then the top 3 members or the squad). The reason why this lacks logic, is that it doesnt sufficiently define goals, and words like "balance". If your goal is, "match up players of equal skill, every time".. well, good luck, but I doubt that will ever be possible. Meanwhile, I think most folks are more interested in fair matchups, where I will also define 'fair' more precisely. I, and others, have accepted the fact that there will always be a certain amount of skill imbalance between the players in a match. What irritates us the most, is when there is skill imbalance, combined with gear imbalance. It is the gear balance only, that I view as unfair. Heck, I want to play against players who are better than me. That's how I learn and improve. Trouble is, it ceases to be learning, and degenerates into stomping, when they're all wearing full proto-everything. So I dont want to be matched with people who are exactly my skill. i do want matches with restricted gear. You dont. you have other goals. that's just fine.. as long you you dont claim that is what everyone wants, or that YOUR plan is somehow the most or only "logical" thing to implement.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14372	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:48:00 - [49] - Quote Details are nice but details never survive any plan with ccp you have to understand that. Concept level is overall the more important concept to sell to CCP though. Getting lost in the nitty gritty is a terrible way to set poor expectations (or great ones) and destroy them when ccp comes out with and at times details can distract from obtaining something that accomplishes tiericides goals smartly or identifying poorly thought out ideas instead. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14373	Posted - 2014.04.28 20:03:00 - [50] - Quote Autoaim Bot514 wrote: I'll just leave this here... Autoaim Bot514 wrote: Heres how it would work, as I imagine it: Take the unbonused frame suits (light med and heavy) and keep the ADV as the new militia variants, none of which would require SP. The pro, you get to try out these suits, but they dont specialized, dont get any kind of bonus. basically, they are there for you to try out, find your playstyle before you commit SP. Now, regular suits. All suits are to be replaced by their Proto equivilent. Example: To unlock a minmatar Logi suit, you need to invest first in the Minmatar Dropsuit skill (this replaces the min light, med and heavy suit skills, SP sinks as they are). Different tiers of this skill unlock the different types of suit, similarly to todays dropsuit command skill, which I would remove. 1=Assault, 3=Scout,pilot, 5= sentinel, etc. Minmatar Dropsuits 3 > Minmatar Logistics 1 = todays proto min logi. Now, this suit will not be at its full potential, but you have the same amount of slots as everyone else and fitting. But, with the skill at just 1, you wont be as powerful, but you will be close. As you add more SP to the suit skill it gets better. Caldari Dropsuits 5 > Caldari Commando 1 = todays proto Calcommando. etc TL;DR: all suits are now protosuits, SP just makes them better thru bonuses, nearly equalizing suits thru fitting, and not relying on "content = variety" yup one way to skin this cat. There are plenty of other ways too. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1368	Posted - 2014.04.28 20:05:00 - [51] - Quote lampwizard wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: introduction/enforcement of roles. Don't go too specific with this or you'll remove playstyles. A suit needs some fitting flexibility. Otherwise there's less of a point to the modules that a player decides to fit. the point of tiercide is that the "basic" suits are specalized but still flexible and the further you go dont the skill tree you get more and more specialized suits in one aspect but weaker in other aspects.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 661	Posted - 2014.04.28 20:11:00 - [52] - Quote I can't for the life of me see how this is even getting any attention or is constantly being brought up and you just don't have the tools to implement it and if it's a bad idea now , what would make it such a great ideal in the future . Vehicle's are horrible now and was far better pre 1.7 with the exception of the balance between the anti-vehicle and the vehicle .. much like we have now but to a lesser degree . Why not give this type of energy into talking about how to fix the problems that currently plague this game like matchmaking and other content and performance problems . The Academy and how the community is influencing this game to take a downward spiral . Always things in the forums that can not help the game now but I guess it's better than the ranting about tanks , scouts and how anti-vehicle is underpowered . All B.S. topics and that's why this game is in the situation it's in right now . Jet packs , cloaked vehicles and all other non-related to the now get's center stage while the game runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off . Does anyone know what direction that this game is actually going in or will someone say something only to have that direction change in the next build ??? Here and now just doesn't get any attention , just complaints , role killing attempts , propaganda and topics that can not and do not help in the here and now . Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
ishtellian SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 63	Posted - 2014.04.28 20:37:00 - [53] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. Tiericide is not only the removal of teirs but introduction/enforcement of roles. The problem with the current system is that A < B on the simple grounds that B is A+1. Under a more ideal tiericide system A = B on the grounds that neither have anything better than the other in every way. Both do different things their own ways. Of course imperfection or needs of roles will skew the popularity between A and B the two can find competition in various performances. Dust 514 however if a tericide where to happen we are likely to see a removal of power and a return to focus on roles. Where Assault Lineup A [militia]< B [basic frame] < E [basic specialist] < C[adv frame] < F [adv specialist] < D [Proto Frame] < G [Proto Specialist] Would likely turns into An Assault suit that emphasizes the Assault Role and performs it well. and developer time willing then A second assault suit that may have a similar but different approach to the role in the same race. With possible third fourth and more as time goes on. In this environment no one assault suit is numerically just better because it's a tier 9 (current setup) but better because its closer to what the player wants to play as and has built his skills and fittings around that role strongly. This would also mean majority of the new stats and the like may see a major shift away from the suits and may dump veterancy onto the skills instead; or maybe modules get a stronger emphasis or a mix of the two; it is up to ccp if and how they do the tiericide. I am in support where the modules remain largely the same in line-up and may absorb more of the cost of the suit squash. Other models includes a module squash; or a skill tree flourish (more RPG like) or mixes and focuses of each. But I am open to hearing other possible models of role focus over power focus and of course any questions concerning how teiricide works and what it is supposed to do. Just to clarify, Tiercide, an example would be Amarr and Gallente logistics ships in Eve, they both rep armor and support a fleet, but Guardians ( Amarr ) are better for logi chains, and Oneiros ( Gallente ) is better at solo work. They both do the same job, but do it differently fitting more playstyles. is that kinda what Tiercide is? another example, in Eve the Gallente Assault frigates, Enyo utilizes guns, whereas Ishkur utilizes drones. Is that kinda what Tiercide is? My Heavy Never Dies. Logibro In training.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1441	Posted - 2014.04.28 20:48:00 - [54] - Quote I still don't get it and I still don't get what the point of SP is for except to then unlock more things laterally which to me makes Dust about as pointless as every other multiplayer FPS shooter out there in its current state. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1335	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:00:00 - [55] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... Concept level is overall the more important concept to sell to CCP though. ... Also far as I am concerned; you can forget anything about gear restrictions. Those restraints if ever made are going to be constructs of players own design and tools; not the developers. Approximate skill matching is something being looked into but gear will never be factored as a part of it. What you have implicitly just stated there, is: "CCP supports, and stands behind, protostomping. They like it, so it must always be protected". In which case, what I have to say is, "Screw you CCP, I'm out of here"
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14381	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:01:00 - [56] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: I still don't get it and I still don't get what the point of SP is for except to then unlock more things laterally which to me makes Dust about as pointless as every other multiplayer FPS shooter out there in its current state. and this is a problem Tiericide can fix easily by shifting all of the suit's previous progression between teirs into the skill points instead and can be tweaked to not give overtly massive advantage to the veteran. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1335	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:04:00 - [57] - Quote IWS you posted at the same time I did, so you may have missed my post. Here's a little nudge for you to scroll up.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14381	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:09:00 - [58] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... Concept level is overall the more important concept to sell to CCP though. ... Also far as I am concerned; you can forget anything about gear restrictions. Those restraints if ever made are going to be constructs of players own design and tools; not the developers. Approximate skill matching is something being looked into but gear will never be factored as a part of it. What you have implicitly just stated there, is: "CCP supports, and stands behind, protostomping. They like it, so it must always be protected". In which case, what I have to say is, "Screw you CCP, I'm out of here" You implicably stated you don't bother to try to understand or read or understand the situation. You need to understand not every idea anyone including myself can be considered a good idea and have thoroughly explained it before. Sell me your destruction of the player base with your Militia, basic, basic specialist, advanced, advanced specialist, prototype and prototype specialist lobbies and throw on top vehicles and no vehicles with basic, advanced and prototype restrictions each then throw on top the 'i don't care about filter' lobby as well. You got 3 sentences to convince me otherwise go. Oh and before you get to far into it TWINK SMURF CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Rusty Shallows Caldari State 1697	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:12:00 - [59] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: snip I would rather see a kind of content progression that reinforces the Price-buys-power system that we have now. The extent to which losses are more guaranteed within PvP or to which power is less relavant in PvE will be the extent to which budgeting your suits, exploiting various resources within the game, building relationships that leverage your power, and studying and outmanuevering your opponent across the geography of the region will make the meta-progression outshine the current limitations of 'price-buys-power'. That will never work with the current framework of Public Contracts. Not without either the best matchmaking software of all FPSes or a system of controlled environments people can choose between with different risk/reward options. In Eve Online they rejected "Bigger is Better" or "Pay to Win" with changes done to Titan Doomsday weapons and Moms drone/fighter bays. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 840	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:20:00 - [60] - Quote While I did at one time think this was a good idea, I've since changed my mind on the matter. So a question for you. What is so wrong with the current system? It would seem the difference gear makes on performance. But isn't this a matter that could be solved with a unique matchmaking system? Just for example, one that uses meta to determine fits usable in battle. Tiered matchmaking even. What is so wrong with those ideas, that you would have to rework everything from the ground up? Tanks - Balancing Turrets

Rusty Shallows Caldari State 1699	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:24:00 - [61] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. ... blah blah TL;DR If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that. "Empowering player decisions and rewarding those decisions." Fail. That's about equivalent to "Let's enhance productivity by leveraging synnergy!!" snip I'll take a shot at the three sentence challenge. (Game Architectural) Tiericide is the redesign of specific game elements in relation to each other. Instead of rewarding investments with power-creep the player unlocks more options for play. Other redesign elements are made to better fulfill their role or even have a purpose that was denied to them because of tiers. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14383	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:27:00 - [62] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: While I did at one time think this was a good idea, I've since changed my mind on the matter. So a question for you. What is so wrong with the current system? It would seem the difference gear makes on performance. But isn't this a matter that could be solved with a unique matchmaking system? Just for example, one that uses meta to determine fits usable in battle. Tiered matchmaking even. What is so wrong with those ideas, that you would have to rework everything from the ground up? World of Warcraft Woot I have Windfury! Burn Crusade ... RIP windfury... Hello Starfury Lich King Starfury lulz? No Frostmorn is where its at Cataclysm Frostmorn? get out of here with that noob you should be having a Fangs of the Father. Mysts of Padas Legendaries what are those? Dust 514 Milita Standard Advanced Prototype (skipped) Standard specialist Advanced specialist Prototype specialist Future Dust 514 without teiricide Tech 2 basic Tech 2 advanced Tech 2 Prototype Tech 1 masters basic Tech 1 masters advanced Tech 1 masters prototype Tech 3 basic Tech 3 advanced Tech 3 prototype Officer basic.... You get the idea. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
KING CHECKMATE Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 5262	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:36:00 - [63] - Quote You know why tiercide is stupid? the moment it gets implemented im going back to Battlefield/Planetside series... I mean, we are ALL GOING TO USE equally powerful stuff but without the need to grind then there is not purpose here.... DUST514 attraction is that is a FPS with RPG elements. in RPS's , players level up. In World of warcraft a level 5 elf will never kill a level 50 Paladin. Here in dust a militia gear 3 mill SP player can kill a full proto 40 mill player, its not impossible , just harder. I thought this game was like Dark souls , harder enemies but bigger rewards. Challenging. but seems yellowbellies are yet too whiny about proto gear even when my proto E-war scout suit costs 190k and your G-1 scout BPO with shotgun fit costs 8k...They DONT SEE THE RISK, they are just like, aww.He got me, six kin ACR. Aww. got me again,.aww got me again,freakn proto stomper, aww got me again. Yay i got him once! YES, i lost against him... He lost 32k I lost 190k. But numskulls here just care about K/D not about ISK.... This is the true meaning of Dust514.ISK, mercenaries....etc. You choose what you want to risk. Like drones? = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153604&find=unread
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 320	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:38:00 - [64] - Quote ishtellian wrote: Just to clarify, Tiercide, an example would be Amarr and Gallente logistics ships in Eve, they both rep armor and support a fleet, but Guardians ( Amarr ) are better for logi chains, and Oneiros ( Gallente ) is better at solo work. They both do the same job, but do it differently fitting more playstyles. is that kinda what Tiercide is? another example, in Eve the Gallente Assault frigates, Enyo utilizes guns, whereas Ishkur utilizes drones. Is that kinda what Tiercide is? Kind of, let me try and clarify. The easiest way to think about tiericide it to look at a specific faction. Lets say that before tiericide there were 5 Amarr frigates whose power relative to each other looked like this: A > B > C > D > E This mirrors DUST's suit progression where pro > adv > std > mlt. After tiericide you had 5 different frigates that were all on the same power level but did things differently. One focused on close range brawling, another on longer range kiting, one switched away from lasers and uses drones as its weapon system, one does logistics, and the last focuses on scanning, etc. They are all still amarr frigates, but each one has a unique flavor, without being clearly better than another. Thats what tiericide is about. MORE variety, with a smaller power gap for new players to have to overcome. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8146	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:42:00 - [65] - Quote The point that we're missing here is that Dust, in its current state is not in any condition to have a tieracide. At the moment, most of the weapons and suits are balanced (although assaults need some love I think). But as more suits, vehicles, and other things get added and rebalanced, a tieracide might later become the practical solution. Bare in mind though that tieracide in Eve took at least 8 years to happen AFTER Eve was released back in 2003. Let's also not forget that the Eve Community was pushing CCP (via the CSM) to address the mess that was created by the old ship tier system. If Dust follows the same pattern, we will likely not see tieracide until it is actually practical to implement. It will also depend on the Dust Community via any future CPM and all of that could take another 8 years. So in the meantime, the only thing we are achieving right now is just giving CCP an early concept of tieracide which will not be realized for a very long time. Besides, even if tieracide is actually practical today, we have more pressing concerns to deal with first. 1. Lack of PvE and NPE. 2. Lack of Eve-Dust interaction. 3. Lack of secondary market. 4. No proper matchmaking. 5. Lag. 6. Broken PC. 7. Too much ISK circulating and not enough ISK sinks. etc. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14384	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:45:00 - [66] - Quote I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience. Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8146	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:46:00 - [67] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: You know why tiercide is stupid? the moment it gets implemented im going back to Battlefield/Planetside series... I mean, we are ALL GOING TO USE equally powerful stuff but without the need to grind then there is not purpose here.... DUST514 attraction is that is a FPS with RPG elements. in RPS's , players level up. In a RPG a level 5 elf will never kill a level 50 Paladin. Here in dust a militia gear 3 mill SP player can kill a full proto 40 mill player, its not impossible , just harder. I thought this game was like Dark souls , harder enemies but bigger rewards. Challenging. but seems yellowbellies are yet too whiny about proto gear even when my proto E-war scout suit costs 190k and your G-1 scout BPO with shotgun fit costs 8k...They DONT SEE THE RISK, they are just like, aww.He got me, six kin ACR. Aww. got me again,.aww got me again,freakn proto stomper, aww got me again. Yay i got him once! YES, i lost against him... He lost 32k I lost 190k. But numskulls here just care about K/D not about ISK.... This is the true meaning of Dust514.ISK, mercenaries....etc. You choose what you want to risk. The kind of Tieracide I was thinking is the kind in which all weapons start the same at level 1 but then one unique aspect of every different weapon becomes enhanced as you level up. The Exhumers that I used earlier as an example shows what I mean. This concept is by no means similar to what Halo has. In Halo, everything is absolutely the same no matter how leveled up you are. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8146	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:48:00 - [68] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience. Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in. But the game is still incomplete. We don't even have all the core content yet and I don't see it being practical at the moment. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14385	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:51:00 - [69] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience. Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in. But the game is still incomplete. We don't even have all the core content yet and I don't see it being practical at the moment. Well you have a point; but I feel that conversations about features we have a much better idea of impact of is generally more healthy than discussing over features we cannot simulate or comprehend game wise. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8148	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:02:00 - [70] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: I still don't get it and I still don't get what the point of SP is for except to then unlock more things laterally which to me makes Dust about as pointless as every other multiplayer FPS shooter out there in its current state. In this case I think the focus should be on restricting tieracide to suits and vehicles while keeping the current tier system in place for modules and weapons. Eve Online has both a tieracide system for ships but a tiered system still in place for turrets and modules. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor

ishtellian SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 64	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:11:00 - [71] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: ishtellian wrote: Just to clarify, Tiercide, an example would be Amarr and Gallente logistics ships in Eve, they both rep armor and support a fleet, but Guardians ( Amarr ) are better for logi chains, and Oneiros ( Gallente ) is better at solo work. They both do the same job, but do it differently fitting more playstyles. is that kinda what Tiercide is? another example, in Eve the Gallente Assault frigates, Enyo utilizes guns, whereas Ishkur utilizes drones. Is that kinda what Tiercide is? Kind of, let me try and clarify. The easiest way to think about tiericide it to look at a specific faction. Lets say that before tiericide there were 5 Amarr frigates whose power relative to each other looked like this: A > B > C > D > E This mirrors DUST's suit progression where pro > adv > std > mlt. After tiericide you had 5 different frigates that were all on the same power level but did things differently. One focused on close range brawling, another on longer range kiting, one switched away from lasers and uses drones as its weapon system, one does logistics, and the last focuses on scanning, etc. They are all still amarr frigates, but each one has a unique flavor, without being clearly better than another. Thats what tiericide is about. MORE variety, with a smaller power gap for new players to have to overcome. Thanks, I get it. My Heavy Never Dies. Logibro In training.
Rusty Shallows Caldari State 1700	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:14:00 - [72] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: I still don't get it and I still don't get what the point of SP is for except to then unlock more things laterally which to me makes Dust about as pointless as every other multiplayer FPS shooter out there in its current state. In this case I think the focus should be on restricting tieracide to suits and vehicles while keeping the current tier system in place for modules and weapons. Eve Online has both a tieracide system for ships but a tiered system still in place for turrets and modules. I was wondering how long it was going to take for that nuance to come out. No one is suggesting the act of Tiericide should be done for the sake of ideology. It really is best as a solution for identified problems. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
axis alpha Red Star. EoN. 328	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 - [73] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles Can't talk about it at the moment. Maybe after fanfest. Hmmmmmmmmm We won't follow the deceiver. You let this be your warning. The path of the wretched is burning..
dullrust Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 66	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:24:00 - [74] - Quote I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function. Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not). Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits. I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. I am nobody.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14387	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:30:00 - [75] - Quote dullrust wrote: I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function. Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not). Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits. I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
dullrust Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 66	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:39:00 - [76] - Quote oh well just my opinion. I am nobody.
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1335	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:56:00 - [77] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that. "Empowering player decisions and rewarding those decisions." Fail. That's about equivalent to "Let's enhance productivity by leveraging synnergy!!" snip I'll take a shot at the three sentence challenge. (Game Architectural) Tiericide is the redesign of specific game elements in relation to each other. Instead of rewarding investments with power-creep the player unlocks more options for play. Other redesign elements are made to better fulfill their role or even have a purpose that was denied to them because of tiers. Well, you certainly did a better job than IWS at it. But still too general. "other options". "other ...elements". How about throwing in a sentence with a specific example? Suggested framework: S1: Problem with current situation S2: Example of fix S3: S2 is better than S1, because....
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1338	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:02:00 - [78] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... ... Also far as I am concerned; you can forget anything about gear restrictions. ... Approximate skill matching is something being looked into but gear will never be factored as a part of it. What you have implicitly just stated there, is: "CCP supports, and stands behind, protostomping. They like it, so it must always be protected". ... You implicably stated you don't bother to try to understand or read or understand the situation. (other distractions and insults snipped) Well, that's interesting. You neither tried to justify CCP's attitude, nor did you claim that is not their attitude. Deliberate attempt to change the subject away from what you wrote? Let's try again. What you wrote, implies that you have heard specific statements from CCP employees, along the lines that they LIKE having the power of massive gear level imbalances between players, therefore, gear restricted game modes will never be implemented. True, or false?
Teilka Darkmist 302	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:07:00 - [79] - Quote Here's the main thing I think people aren't getting about tiercide as it relates to Dust and compares to Eve. They seem to be equating each level of dropsuit with a different class of eve ship, standard = frigates, advanced = cruisers proto = batteships. When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 Vehicles fit outside that system, I've not really worked them out as my only experience of using vehicles is using an LAV to get me to the other end of the map quicker. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2598	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:19:00 - [80] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda.

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14389	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:21:00 - [81] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... ... Also far as I am concerned; you can forget anything about gear restrictions. ... Approximate skill matching is something being looked into but gear will never be factored as a part of it. What you have implicitly just stated there, is: "CCP supports, and stands behind, protostomping. They like it, so it must always be protected". ... You implicably stated you don't bother to try to understand or read or understand the situation. (other distractions and insults snipped) Well, that's interesting. You neither tried to justify CCP's attitude, nor did you claim that is not their attitude. Deliberate attempt to change the subject away from what you wrote? Let's try again. What you wrote, implies that you have heard specific statements from CCP employees, along the lines that they LIKE having the power of massive gear level imbalances between players, therefore, gear restricted game modes will never be implemented. True, or false? Neither. The suggestion to CCP is rhetorical. One does not simply waste time asking about things one already knows the answer to. It's insulting and makes you look off base and very undeserving of the CPM because the mere idea is so un dust un eve un sandbox and ultimately NOT FUN. This is like is trying to suggest to the MLB to play baseball with an american football. Merely I am simply pointing out the idea of fractured lobbies has not been fully thought out on your end. One also does not make assumptions of deprivation/ discrimination or support because of unwillingness or lack of action to make himself look like a victim for in my eyes you deserve everything thrown at you. They are not going to split the active player base that is playing pub matches into incomplete and very skewed matches where once again you fail to address the issue of twinking and smurfing if you are not familiar with these terms you have not played enough games where bracketing is highly common and these are nearly epidemic plagues in those games that go unresolved because there is no way to counter those without further hurting everyone including veterans the most. What next SP brackets? gear brackets? epeen meter? Gearscore??? None of these will fix protostomp; cept for the name of the protostomp and a new problem starts up; its called orphaning. Having players forced in lobbies where they really don't belong and have no desire to be there which then has lead to many more unhealthier behaviors such as deleveling unranking and quitting and starting a new alt which will lead to the stoppage of purchases. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Simple exercise; try it. Tiericide various models that have been thought out by many players have very interesting answers along the way across the entire tree of Whys that increases freedom expands the progression and evolves close to a better solution. Bracket Gaming only kills more freedom with every answer of why because there is no other solution but to restrict players to the point they're only going to fight people that mutually want to fight back; and one doesn't have to look far to see evidence that ccp is getting far away from this route as far as possible. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14389	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:22:00 - [82] - Quote dullrust wrote: oh well just my opinion. you're entitled to it of course. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Teilka Darkmist 302	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:00:00 - [83] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda. Not really as a cruiser in Eve has a hard time killing a frigate due to tracking speed and signature radius. A heavy in Dust has no problems removing a light or medium frame suit from Dust. I can see comparing them to well tanked destroyers though, rather than frigates. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14390	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:03:00 - [84] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda. Not really as a cruiser in Eve has a hard time killing a frigate due to tracking speed and signature radius. A heavy in Dust has no problems removing a light or medium frame suit from Dust. I can see comparing them to well tanked destroyers though, rather than frigates. for a eve to dust comparison it should be more heavies are destroyer class, HAVs are cruisers, and everyone frigates. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Teilka Darkmist 302	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:14:00 - [85] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda. Not really as a cruiser in Eve has a hard time killing a frigate due to tracking speed and signature radius. A heavy in Dust has no problems removing a light or medium frame suit from Dust. I can see comparing them to well tanked destroyers though, rather than frigates. for a eve to dust comparison it should be more heavies are destroyer class, HAVs are cruisers, and everyone frigates. A good point, well made. I accept your version of my analogy as more accurate. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
excillon Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 378	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:23:00 - [86] - Quote Sure why not. It can't hurt. This game is already broken to sh!t anyhow.
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 698	Posted - 2014.04.29 01:19:00 - [87] - Quote although i agree that the skill tree and how you get to new stuff is a bit wonky i do not believe tiericide is the option It'll help define roles, i promise:)
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 400	Posted - 2014.04.29 04:41:00 - [88] - Quote Okay, here we go. (I've found my posts mostly either get ignored or end the discussion, so if this kills the thread, my apologies to IWS.) Fundamentally, what's being called "tiericide" is the same thing from EVE to DUST, not because ship hulls equate to dropsuits but because of the design philosophy. WHAT TIERICIDE IS (PHILOSOPHY) "Tiericide" is a transitional step moving from one design philosophy to another. Specifically, it's moving from a philosophy where experience and money buy greater power to one where every item in the game has a purpose. This was the stated intent as far as I saw of the "tiericide" effort in EVE: that a player with 10 years of skill training would have some reasonable justification to use every ship for which that player had trained. To clarify, "tiericide" is not a long-term solution. The long-term solution is the design philosophy. "Tiericide" is a way of getting from the current philosophy to a new philosophy. One could reasonably consider the current design philosophy "pay-to-win." This is because investing more ISK in your fit buys more power, with absolutely no downside other than the increased cost. The new philosophy, on the other hand, considers ISK to be an economic factor rather than a balancing factor. When you consider opening the DUST economy to simple trading, mining, manufacturing, and research, let alone EVE, you may start to see how the simple ISK-for-power tradeoff becomes problematic. At the very least, it can contribute to a steep money-power loop. HOW TO IMPLEMENT TIERICIDE There are different camps. As IWS pointed out, it's not a great idea to go to CCP with specifics. (I've spent a lot of time on corporate strategy, so I can relate.) But for the purpose of this explanation, let's outline three. First up is complete tiericide. Everything in the game that currently has tiers, gets cut down to one item. Instead of standard, advanced, and prototype codebreaker modules, you get one codebreaker module. Same with suits. Weapons would still have variants, but it would just be assault rifle, tactical assault rifle, breach assault rifle, and burst assault rifle--no standard, advanced, or proto. Second is to put downsides on all equipment. This turns "better" equipment into "more specialized" equipment. For example, one prototype Scout suit might have a higher scan profile than its standard variant, while another might be slower than the standard, in exchange for other advantages or more PG/CPU. A prototype rail rifle might be more powerful but also have more kick than a standard variant. The final approach I'll discuss is proposed in the original post in this thread. Simply remove the suit tiers. There will be one militia heavy frame, one basic heavy frame, one Commando, and one Sentinel for each race. Same with medium and light suits. Modules and weapons go untouched. The reasoning behind this is that the module, weapons, and equipment tiers have to balance around the suit's fixed PG/CPU. No one will be able to fill every slot with a prototype item, so for every fit you will have to choose whether you want more power in one slot at the expense of power in another slot. Thus the remaining standard/advanced/prototype tiers for modules, weapons, and equipment are justified on the basis of fittings costs and tradeoffs, not just ISK. THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE The most widespread impact will be an increase in variety without having to add any new content. Instead of just buying the most expensive version of all the same modules (I very much doubt that there's a whole lot of variation in how people fit Sentinels, for example), players will have to make choices about how the equipment they're choosing will impact the way they play. The biggest potential negative impact is that players may feel less "elite" if higher tiers are removed, and disincentivize spending and skills. Going from driving a Ferrari to driving a Honda isn't functionally different, but the way you feel about it is different. I believe, if done right, that players won't really miss the tiers because of the ability to unlock variety and customization. Not to mention there is a different sense of "elite" in mastering something powerful that comes with downsides or weaknesses. THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE ON NEW PLAYERS The potential positive impact on the new player experience is a complicated one to discuss, because NPE is complicated in general. Research suggests players need to feel they are 90% of the way to "success" ("success" being a moving target as the player progresses) in order to be motivated to play. In this sense the concept that "having an elite motivates the new players to try to reach that level" is fundamentally flawed. All new players see is a long slog of losing games, trying to earn enough SP and ISK just to be able to feel like they're really playing. Tiericide helps with the NPE psychologically because the gap between tiers can be intimidating. If I'm in a standard medium suit and get killed by a proto assault, I have four tiers and seven skill levels between me and the person that killed me in the suit alone. But if I'm just killed by an "assault" suit, all I see is the role. The psychological impact could be significant even if the practical impact is minimal. Remember that a lot of the NPE is about how players feel and not necessarily the reality behind it. That works in both directions. SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENT FOR TIERICIDE IN THREE SENTENCES (Because apparently this is a thing now.) Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player. Thoughts? The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1370	Posted - 2014.04.29 08:54:00 - [89] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player. tiercide does not mean that you dont get advantages over new players. the difference is that you are not just getting twice the HP like you do now.
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 402	Posted - 2014.04.29 14:32:00 - [90] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player. tiercide does not mean that you dont get advantages over new players. the difference is that you are not just getting twice the HP like you do now. You are correct, obviously. So my three-sentence summary wasn't very well worded. There would still be upgrading, but the curve would be flattened and there would be more focus on side-grading and weighing pros against cons when designing fits. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing

Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1442	Posted - 2014.04.29 15:10:00 - [91] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: dullrust wrote: I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function. Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not). Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits. I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. With such a system...congratulations you have turned Dust into Blacklight : Retribution which sucks. Maybe tiecide would be good for the game eventualy, maybe not. I don't think it would be good for Dust at the moment because I think that currently there exists only 2 reasons to bother playing Dust 1. to grind SP 2. to play with friends. Tiercide takes away one of those reasons, maybe if Dust is ever a good game with interesting and varied game modes, large scale battles, connection to Eve etc... maybe then tiercide makes sense because Dust will have features that separate it from other games in the MMOFPS genre Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Tweaksz Jaded Clones 64	Posted - 2014.04.29 15:18:00 - [92] - Quote Such sweet words. Unicorn GalScout with TAR/BAR and IoP/BoltP.
SILENTSAM 69 SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION 663	Posted - 2014.04.29 15:18:00 - [93] - Quote I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits. I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway. We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR.
Autoaim Bot514 The Hetairoi 106	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:11:00 - [94] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: dullrust wrote: I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function. Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not). Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits. I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. With such a system...congratulations you have turned Dust into Blacklight : Retribution which sucks. Maybe tiecide would be good for the game eventualy, maybe not. I don't think it would be good for Dust at the moment because I think that currently there exists only 2 reasons to bother playing Dust 1. to grind SP 2. to play with friends. Tiercide takes away one of those reasons, maybe if Dust is ever a good game with interesting and varied game modes, large scale battles, connection to Eve etc... maybe then tiercide makes sense because Dust will have features that separate it from other games in the MMOFPS genre Noone says "Oh man, I cant wait to grind out this weeks cap..." If you tiericide, the only grind will be to improve the bonuses on your suit, but you wont be obligated to it just to be competitive. Itll also reduce "protostomping" and make the game more enjoyable for new players, who might decide to stick around instead of leaving after 2 matches.
Autoaim Bot514 The Hetairoi 106	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:15:00 - [95] - Quote SILENTSAM 69 wrote: I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits. I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway. We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR. And that doesnt already happen now? This argument of "it wont fix it 100%, so lets not even try" is sad. Tiericide will atleast bring the players together in terms of fitting, placing them on better footing to let their thumbs do the work.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1442	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:28:00 - [96] - Quote Autoaim Bot514 wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: dullrust wrote: I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function. Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not). Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits. I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. With such a system...congratulations you have turned Dust into Blacklight : Retribution which sucks. Maybe tiecide would be good for the game eventualy, maybe not. I don't think it would be good for Dust at the moment because I think that currently there exists only 2 reasons to bother playing Dust 1. to grind SP 2. to play with friends. Tiercide takes away one of those reasons, maybe if Dust is ever a good game with interesting and varied game modes, large scale battles, connection to Eve etc... maybe then tiercide makes sense because Dust will have features that separate it from other games in the MMOFPS genre Noone says "Oh man, I cant wait to grind out this weeks cap..." If you tiericide, the only grind will be to improve the bonuses on your suit, but you wont be obligated to it just to be competitive. Itll also reduce "protostomping" and make the game more enjoyable for new players, who might decide to stick around instead of leaving after 2 matches. I say things like: I can't wait to unlock level 5 in Scrambler rifle and use that Viziam ScR or unlock that proto suit or get level 5 profile dampening. I know the last one is a bad example because I assume passive skills will still have levels. But even if I was completely on the tiercide bandwagon, if CCP were to implement this you are taking away half of the monetization of this game. Also, what are you going to do about BPO gear. You going to have closed beta vets like myself have unlimited copies of gear that is just as good as everything else in its class? Thanks, maybe this tiercide is a great idea afterall Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1442	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:32:00 - [97] - Quote SILENTSAM 69 wrote: I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits. I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway. We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR. Thumbs and SP in passive skills. Passive skills and FPS skills are what set vet elites apart from everyone else and tiercide isn't going to stop that. Goric dude may be correct in that it will benefit people psychologically, but psychology is bullshit, so in the end iercide is just bullshitting people Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix 566	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:37:00 - [98] - Quote So am I in the thread where Iron wolf Saber repeatedly proves that he knows pretty much nothing about how eve works, comes to wrong conclusions, and has just blatently bad ideas. (for the record, he supported the tank changes, was fine with the new scout changes, had no problem with the RR and CR, and has just no vision at all.) "We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1622	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:38:00 - [99] - Quote Introduce whatever you want, as long as you don't touch my SP...
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 405	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:42:00 - [100] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: SILENTSAM 69 wrote: I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits. I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway. We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR. Thumbs and SP in passive skills. Passive skills and FPS skills are what set vet elites apart from everyone else and tiercide isn't going to stop that. Goric dude may be correct in that it will benefit people psychologically, but psychology is bullshit, so in the end iercide is just bullshitting people If you really believe psychology is bullshit, you really shouldn't be trying to design games. Game design is 98% behavioral psychology, 2% aesthetics (which is just a different kind of psychology). (Those are made up numbers, but you get my point. Behavioral psychology influences almost everything about the design of a game.) The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing

Haerr Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 483	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:43:00 - [101] - Quote Why is there no mention of 'Pirate' faction suits? (Notably the Guristas Pirates Scout Suits.) Mr. J. Pearson for CPM!
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1259	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:50:00 - [102] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: So am I in the thread where Iron wolf Saber repeatedly proves that he knows pretty much nothing about how eve works, comes to wrong conclusions, and has just blatantly bad ideas. (for the record, he supported the tank changes, was fine with the new scout changes, had no problem with the RR and CR, and has just no vision at all.) He told me personally that the leaked changes to medium suits weren't cast in stone. Nope, that it was a work in progress yet less than a month later - my Minmatar logi was Ganked to exactly what the leaked data said was going to happen. 15 months of effort wiped out and I got told to buzz of. By him. CPM could mean Corporate Personal Mimic as a better description from my experience. It was rather disappointing. Now I only play Dust to play with my friends and I don't play Logi anymore. When they move on, so will I. And so it goes.
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1347	Posted - 2014.04.29 17:48:00 - [103] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Let's try again. What you wrote, implies that you have heard specific statements from CCP employees, along the lines that they LIKE having the power of massive gear level imbalances between players, therefore, gear restricted game modes will never be implemented. True, or false? Neither. The suggestion to CCP is rhetorical. So, if I understand you correctly now, your statements about [gear based limits are off the table], come not from any statement of theirs, but from you, IWS, being unwilling to put the suggestion to them. Reguardless of whether a large contingent of actual players, like the idea? Doesnt sound like the best community spokesperson behaviour. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: One does not simply waste time asking about things one already knows the answer to. S'funny, that's exactly what I would have said a few months ago, about the idea of asking scouts to have more module slots. And TWO equipment slots? that's just absurd Quote: What next SP brackets? gear brackets? epeen meter? Gearscore??? None of these will fix protostomp; cept for the name of the protostomp and a new problem starts up; its called orphaning. Having players forced in lobbies where they really don't belong Uhhh.. seems like you're the one missing the point here. There is no "forcing". It would be actually giving players a choice, whereas now they are "forced" to play a$$hats in proto as soon as they get kicked out of the academy.
Yan Darn Science For Death 721	Posted - 2014.04.29 17:57:00 - [104] - Quote While its clear some people still don't get it, this is probably the best tiercide discussion I've seen. Im glad we can finally move past explaining what it is/isn't to actually discuss feasibility and implentation and overall effects on gameplay. There have been many points to consider, and it's hard to have a firm opinion yet. Especially considering the current lack of content and gamemodes. However - there are some people who do seem to get it, but genuinely want this to be like Korean MMORPG (bit unfair to say that really, since I don't play them...) - a question to anyone who supports a tiered system: "Would you be happy if CCP introduced more tiers past proto and would you feel this classes as adding more choices and variety?" - Same concept as now really - exact same suit, but each suit continuously has more pg/CPU and slots. From a design principle I think that is a very sad and lazy way to introduce new content. From a players perspective, I'd just see '[grind,grind, grind...more grind] then - "hey, I'm finally competitive!"' (Until they up the 'level cap' again). I'd much rather ['grind...] "hey I like this aspect of the suit, I want better mods that let me do that better" [grind] well this sort of thing is actually really fun, and that (far more expensive) suit will let me do this thing I like, better than other suits, if I put on the mods ive invested in. [grind]."hmmm, could do with maxing my core skills so I can finally fit X T2 Mod and Y T2 mod at the same time" [grind] "hey now I've maxed my core skills and different mods/weapons the suit I originally started in can be fitted in some pretty cool ways - it's actually worth using when I get tired of doing that specialised thing". The Ghost of Bravo
Autoaim Bot514 The Hetairoi 108	Posted - 2014.04.29 18:11:00 - [105] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Autoaim Bot514 wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: dullrust wrote: I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function. Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not). Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits. I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. With such a system...congratulations you have turned Dust into Blacklight : Retribution which sucks. Maybe tiecide would be good for the game eventualy, maybe not. I don't think it would be good for Dust at the moment because I think that currently there exists only 2 reasons to bother playing Dust 1. to grind SP 2. to play with friends. Tiercide takes away one of those reasons, maybe if Dust is ever a good game with interesting and varied game modes, large scale battles, connection to Eve etc... maybe then tiercide makes sense because Dust will have features that separate it from other games in the MMOFPS genre Noone says "Oh man, I cant wait to grind out this weeks cap..." If you tiericide, the only grind will be to improve the bonuses on your suit, but you wont be obligated to it just to be competitive. Itll also reduce "protostomping" and make the game more enjoyable for new players, who might decide to stick around instead of leaving after 2 matches. I say things like: I can't wait to unlock level 5 in Scrambler rifle and use that Viziam ScR or unlock that proto suit or get level 5 profile dampening. I know the last one is a bad example because I assume passive skills will still have levels. But even if I was completely on the tiercide bandwagon, if CCP were to implement this you are taking away half of the monetization of this game. Also, what are you going to do about BPO gear. You going to have closed beta vets like myself have unlimited copies of gear that is just as good as everything else in its class? Thanks, maybe this tiercide is a great idea afterall LOL. Only suits need to get tiericide. Mods and weapons would remained tiered, as it is in EVE. BPO suits would get ADV stats, and become the new miltia, regular suits get proto stats. See, not that hard was it?
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1364	Posted - 2014.05.01 16:56:00 - [106] - Quote Autoaim Bot514 wrote: LOL. Only suits need to get tiericide. Mods and weapons would remained tiered, as it is in EVE. BPO suits would get ADV stats, and become the new miltia, regular suits get proto stats. See, not that hard was it? Or, contrariwise, BPO and militia suits stay as they are. Toss both "basic" and "proto" suits. Leave ADV as the "this is what you skill into" suit. Proto level is where sanity goes out the window. Keep things at the ADV level, and the specialization between different suit types, actually stays meaningful.
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 413	Posted - 2014.05.01 20:07:00 - [107] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Autoaim Bot514 wrote: LOL. Only suits need to get tiericide. Mods and weapons would remained tiered, as it is in EVE. BPO suits would get ADV stats, and become the new miltia, regular suits get proto stats. See, not that hard was it? Or, contrariwise, BPO and militia suits stay as they are. Toss both "basic" and "proto" suits. Leave ADV as the "this is what you skill into" suit. Proto level is where sanity goes out the window. Keep things at the ADV level, and the specialization between different suit types, actually stays meaningful. Not a bad idea, actually. Your current BPO standard suits would be a step up from militia but not as good as what you'd buy off the in-game market. Would that leave militia too underpowered, though? What Is Tiericide and Why?
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1365	Posted - 2014.05.01 20:11:00 - [108] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Your current BPO standard suits would be a step up from militia but not as good as what you'd buy off the in-game market. actually, MOST BPO suits are just militia. It's only a few rare ones that are "special". (last time I checked, anyways) For example, I have an Eon (Amarr) heavy suit BPO. 1H 1L Grr. PS: militia fits should be underpowered. otherwise people dont have sufficient incentive to skill into the good stuff.


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