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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8141
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Posted - 2014.04.28 18:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP has been known to do well with tiericides in Eve Online. Each tier of the ships retains an ability that other tiers lack. Case in point: Exhumers.
Before Tieracide
Exhumers
>Skiff - Mining yield bonus with bonus to Mercoxit mining and some cargo space.
>>Mackinaw - Some more mining yield with bonus to Ice mining. Has more cargo space.
>>>Hulk - Best mining Yield with bonus to yield. Has the best cargo space.
**Notice the arrows next to the ships indicating that you needed to train up the Skiff first before using the Mackinaw and you have to train up the Mackinaw before training the Hulk.
After Tieracide
Exhumers
>Skiff - Bonus to Mercoxit mining but with excellent tanking and warping capabilities for low/null-sec operations. Now often being used as part of a gate-camping fleet due to their high targeting resolution and battleship-like tank against the gate guns. Also the best choice for ninja mining in dangerous areas of space.
>Mackinaw - Bonus to Ice mining now with excellent hauling space for ore (up to 35,000m3 of space) but suffers a loss in tanking capabilities due to the expanded cargo hold. The best choice for AFK miners.
>Hulk - Not much tank or cargo space, but does offer a tremendous bonus to mining yield making them the best choice for high-yield mining operations.
**Notice the arrows again signifying that you only need to train up Exhumers to level 1 to access all ships. Further training of this skill will then be used to enhance the ships affected.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8142
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Posted - 2014.04.28 18:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game.
Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then.
In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8142
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 18:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:I could see this working so long as the skills make skilling into the suits worth it, and make damn sure there is a bonus per level no unlock at lvl 1,3,5 cause that wastes precious sp and would make the game rather dull.
modules have to stay tiered, non tiered vehicle mods make fitting really dull (although that might have also been the slot removal and pg/cpu Nerf too) and unbalanced.
Weapons stay tiered, wouldn't make any sense to do this to weapons what are you paying for if not more killing power.
...
So really your just suggesting tiercide for suits then?
Eve Online still has tiered modules and guns despite experiencing a tieracide of its ships. But so far it worked out very well for everyone and no one in Eve is complaining about it.
But I do agree that with the tieracide it will effectively give purpose to those SP sinks you are referring to.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8145
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 19:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Django Quik wrote:Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. I call bull... yeah we dont have 46 variations of dropsuits yet but we could just as easily apply eve's tiercide mechanics to dust's dropsuits TODAY. On top of that, less labor is required to balance future assets as they are released. It is a win-win to tiercide dropsuits asap. Exhumer's did not need supercaptial ships being released before tiercide made sense, and neither does existing dust assets need future assets before tiercide makes sense. Tiercide today, less work tomorrow.
I can give you one clear example why tieraciding the Dust suits TODAY would be a bad idea.
Heavy weapons for Heavy suits. Or... lack of Heavy weapons I should say.
Right now we only have 2 (two) heavy weapons available. One is Caldari (I think) which is the forge gun and the other is Minmatar which is the HMG. The Amarr and Gallente variant is still not available. If CCP does the tieracide for all suits without the remaining the heavy weapons, then the tieracide will only be balanced around two weapons instead of all four for the heavy suits. This is not the way to go about balancing especially when you have to later waste more time rebalancing old weapons with new ones of the exact same class as they come in. The same can be said for nova knives. There is only one racial set and that is the Caldari Nova Knives. There are suppose to be three other racial knives coming later on. This will likely involve the scouts especially the Minmatar Scout since it's a Minmatar suit using a Caldari Knife (go figure).
Now, if you tieracide just the medium suits we'll have no problem since every light weapon and sidearm has finally been made available for every race. But then again all the heavy and scout players will feel left out if just the mediums get the tieracide.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8146
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
The point that we're missing here is that Dust, in its current state is not in any condition to have a tieracide. At the moment, most of the weapons and suits are balanced (although assaults need some love I think). But as more suits, vehicles, and other things get added and rebalanced, a tieracide might later become the practical solution.
Bare in mind though that tieracide in Eve took at least 8 years to happen AFTER Eve was released back in 2003. Let's also not forget that the Eve Community was pushing CCP (via the CSM) to address the mess that was created by the old ship tier system. If Dust follows the same pattern, we will likely not see tieracide until it is actually practical to implement. It will also depend on the Dust Community via any future CPM and all of that could take another 8 years. So in the meantime, the only thing we are achieving right now is just giving CCP an early concept of tieracide which will not be realized for a very long time.
Besides, even if tieracide is actually practical today, we have more pressing concerns to deal with first.
1. Lack of PvE and NPE.
2. Lack of Eve-Dust interaction.
3. Lack of secondary market.
4. No proper matchmaking.
5. Lag.
6. Broken PC.
7. Too much ISK circulating and not enough ISK sinks.
etc.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8146
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:You know why tiercide is stupid? the moment it gets implemented im going back to Battlefield/Planetside series...
I mean, we are ALL GOING TO USE equally powerful stuff but without the need to grind then there is not purpose here....
DUST514 attraction is that is a FPS with RPG elements.
in RPS's , players level up. In a RPG a level 5 elf will never kill a level 50 Paladin.
Here in dust a militia gear 3 mill SP player can kill a full proto 40 mill player, its not impossible , just harder.
I thought this game was like Dark souls , harder enemies but bigger rewards.
Challenging.
but seems yellowbellies are yet too whiny about proto gear even when my proto E-war scout suit costs 190k and your G-1 scout BPO with shotgun fit costs 8k...They DONT SEE THE RISK, they are just like, aww.He got me, six kin ACR. Aww. got me again,.aww got me again,freakn proto stomper, aww got me again.
Yay i got him once!
YES, i lost against him...
He lost 32k I lost 190k. But numskulls here just care about K/D not about ISK....
This is the true meaning of Dust514.ISK, mercenaries....etc.
You choose what you want to risk.
The kind of Tieracide I was thinking is the kind in which all weapons start the same at level 1 but then one unique aspect of every different weapon becomes enhanced as you level up. The Exhumers that I used earlier as an example shows what I mean. This concept is by no means similar to what Halo has. In Halo, everything is absolutely the same no matter how leveled up you are.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8146
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience.
Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in.
But the game is still incomplete. We don't even have all the core content yet and I don't see it being practical at the moment.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8148
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 22:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:I still don't get it and I still don't get what the point of SP is for except to then unlock more things laterally which to me makes Dust about as pointless as every other multiplayer FPS shooter out there in its current state.
In this case I think the focus should be on restricting tieracide to suits and vehicles while keeping the current tier system in place for modules and weapons. Eve Online has both a tieracide system for ships but a tiered system still in place for turrets and modules.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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