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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn
1442
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Posted - 2014.04.29 15:10:00 -
[91] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:dullrust wrote:I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function.
Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not).
Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits.
I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15.
With such a system...congratulations you have turned Dust into Blacklight : Retribution which sucks. Maybe tiecide would be good for the game eventualy, maybe not. I don't think it would be good for Dust at the moment because I think that currently there exists only 2 reasons to bother playing Dust 1. to grind SP 2. to play with friends. Tiercide takes away one of those reasons, maybe if Dust is ever a good game with interesting and varied game modes, large scale battles, connection to Eve etc... maybe then tiercide makes sense because Dust will have features that separate it from other games in the MMOFPS genre
Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
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Tweaksz
Jaded Clones
64
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Posted - 2014.04.29 15:18:00 -
[92] - Quote
Such sweet words.
Unicorn GalScout with TAR/BAR and IoP/BoltP.
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
663
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Posted - 2014.04.29 15:18:00 -
[93] - Quote
I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits.
I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway.
We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
106
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:11:00 -
[94] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:dullrust wrote:I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function.
Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not).
Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits.
I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. With such a system...congratulations you have turned Dust into Blacklight : Retribution which sucks. Maybe tiecide would be good for the game eventualy, maybe not. I don't think it would be good for Dust at the moment because I think that currently there exists only 2 reasons to bother playing Dust 1. to grind SP 2. to play with friends. Tiercide takes away one of those reasons, maybe if Dust is ever a good game with interesting and varied game modes, large scale battles, connection to Eve etc... maybe then tiercide makes sense because Dust will have features that separate it from other games in the MMOFPS genre
Noone says "Oh man, I cant wait to grind out this weeks cap..."
If you tiericide, the only grind will be to improve the bonuses on your suit, but you wont be obligated to it just to be competitive. Itll also reduce "protostomping" and make the game more enjoyable for new players, who might decide to stick around instead of leaving after 2 matches. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
106
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:15:00 -
[95] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits.
I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway.
We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR.
And that doesnt already happen now? This argument of "it wont fix it 100%, so lets not even try" is sad.
Tiericide will atleast bring the players together in terms of fitting, placing them on better footing to let their thumbs do the work. |
Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn
1442
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:28:00 -
[96] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Zahle Undt wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:dullrust wrote:I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function.
Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not).
Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits.
I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. With such a system...congratulations you have turned Dust into Blacklight : Retribution which sucks. Maybe tiecide would be good for the game eventualy, maybe not. I don't think it would be good for Dust at the moment because I think that currently there exists only 2 reasons to bother playing Dust 1. to grind SP 2. to play with friends. Tiercide takes away one of those reasons, maybe if Dust is ever a good game with interesting and varied game modes, large scale battles, connection to Eve etc... maybe then tiercide makes sense because Dust will have features that separate it from other games in the MMOFPS genre Noone says "Oh man, I cant wait to grind out this weeks cap..." If you tiericide, the only grind will be to improve the bonuses on your suit, but you wont be obligated to it just to be competitive. Itll also reduce "protostomping" and make the game more enjoyable for new players, who might decide to stick around instead of leaving after 2 matches.
I say things like: I can't wait to unlock level 5 in Scrambler rifle and use that Viziam ScR or unlock that proto suit or get level 5 profile dampening. I know the last one is a bad example because I assume passive skills will still have levels.
But even if I was completely on the tiercide bandwagon, if CCP were to implement this you are taking away half of the monetization of this game. Also, what are you going to do about BPO gear. You going to have closed beta vets like myself have unlimited copies of gear that is just as good as everything else in its class? Thanks, maybe this tiercide is a great idea afterall
Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn
1442
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits.
I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway.
We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR.
Thumbs and SP in passive skills. Passive skills and FPS skills are what set vet elites apart from everyone else and tiercide isn't going to stop that. Goric dude may be correct in that it will benefit people psychologically, but psychology is bullshit, so in the end iercide is just bullshitting people
Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
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Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix
566
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:37:00 -
[98] - Quote
So am I in the thread where Iron wolf Saber repeatedly proves that he knows pretty much nothing about how eve works, comes to wrong conclusions, and has just blatently bad ideas.
(for the record, he supported the tank changes, was fine with the new scout changes, had no problem with the RR and CR, and has just no vision at all.)
"We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
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NAV HIV
The Generals General Tso's Alliance
1622
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Posted - 2014.04.29 16:38:00 -
[99] - Quote
Introduce whatever you want, as long as you don't touch my SP... |
Goric Rumis
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
405
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:42:00 -
[100] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits.
I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway.
We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR. Thumbs and SP in passive skills. Passive skills and FPS skills are what set vet elites apart from everyone else and tiercide isn't going to stop that. Goric dude may be correct in that it will benefit people psychologically, but psychology is bullshit, so in the end iercide is just bullshitting people If you really believe psychology is bullshit, you really shouldn't be trying to design games. Game design is 98% behavioral psychology, 2% aesthetics (which is just a different kind of psychology). (Those are made up numbers, but you get my point. Behavioral psychology influences almost everything about the design of a game.)
The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
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Haerr
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
483
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Posted - 2014.04.29 16:43:00 -
[101] - Quote
Why is there no mention of 'Pirate' faction suits?
(Notably the Guristas Pirates Scout Suits.)
Mr. J. Pearson for CPM!
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
1259
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:50:00 -
[102] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:So am I in the thread where Iron wolf Saber repeatedly proves that he knows pretty much nothing about how eve works, comes to wrong conclusions, and has just blatantly bad ideas.
(for the record, he supported the tank changes, was fine with the new scout changes, had no problem with the RR and CR, and has just no vision at all.) He told me personally that the leaked changes to medium suits weren't cast in stone. Nope, that it was a work in progress yet less than a month later - my Minmatar logi was Ganked to exactly what the leaked data said was going to happen.
15 months of effort wiped out and I got told to buzz of. By him. CPM could mean Corporate Personal Mimic as a better description from my experience. It was rather disappointing.
Now I only play Dust to play with my friends and I don't play Logi anymore. When they move on, so will I.
And so it goes.
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Quil Evrything
Triple Terrors
1347
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Posted - 2014.04.29 17:48:00 -
[103] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Quil Evrything wrote: Let's try again.
What you wrote, implies that you have heard specific statements from CCP employees, along the lines that they LIKE having the power of massive gear level imbalances between players, therefore, gear restricted game modes will never be implemented.
True, or false?
Neither. The suggestion to CCP is rhetorical.
So, if I understand you correctly now, your statements about [gear based limits are off the table], come not from any statement of theirs, but from you, IWS, being unwilling to put the suggestion to them. Reguardless of whether a large contingent of actual players, like the idea? Doesnt sound like the best community spokesperson behaviour.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote: One does not simply waste time asking about things one already knows the answer to.
S'funny, that's exactly what I would have said a few months ago, about the idea of asking scouts to have more module slots. And TWO equipment slots? that's just absurd
Quote:
What next SP brackets? gear brackets? epeen meter? Gearscore??? None of these will fix protostomp; cept for the name of the protostomp and a new problem starts up; its called orphaning. Having players forced in lobbies where they really don't belong
Uhhh.. seems like you're the one missing the point here. There is no "forcing". It would be actually giving players a *choice*, whereas now they are "forced" to play a$$hats in proto as soon as they get kicked out of the academy.
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
721
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Posted - 2014.04.29 17:57:00 -
[104] - Quote
While its clear some people still don't get it, this is probably the best tiercide discussion I've seen. Im glad we can finally move past explaining what it is/isn't to actually discuss feasibility and implentation and overall effects on gameplay.
There have been many points to consider, and it's hard to have a firm opinion yet. Especially considering the current lack of content and gamemodes.
However - there are some people who do seem to get it, but genuinely want this to be like Korean MMORPG (bit unfair to say that really, since I don't play them...) - a question to anyone who supports a tiered system:
"Would you be happy if CCP introduced more tiers past proto and would you feel this classes as adding more choices and variety?" - Same concept as now really - exact same suit, but each suit continuously has more pg/CPU and slots.
From a design principle I think that is a very sad and lazy way to introduce new content. From a players perspective, I'd just see '[grind,grind, grind...more grind] then - "hey, I'm finally competitive!"' (Until they up the 'level cap' again).
I'd much rather ['grind...] "hey I like this aspect of the suit, I want better mods that let me do that better" [grind] well this sort of thing is actually really fun, and that (far more expensive) suit will let me do this thing I like, better than other suits, if I put on the mods ive invested in.
[grind]."hmmm, could do with maxing my core skills so I can finally fit X T2 Mod and Y T2 mod at the same time" [grind] "hey now I've maxed my core skills and different mods/weapons the suit I originally started in can be fitted in some pretty cool ways - it's actually worth using when I get tired of doing that specialised thing".
The Ghost of Bravo
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
108
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Posted - 2014.04.29 18:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Zahle Undt wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:dullrust wrote:I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function.
Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not).
Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits.
I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. With such a system...congratulations you have turned Dust into Blacklight : Retribution which sucks. Maybe tiecide would be good for the game eventualy, maybe not. I don't think it would be good for Dust at the moment because I think that currently there exists only 2 reasons to bother playing Dust 1. to grind SP 2. to play with friends. Tiercide takes away one of those reasons, maybe if Dust is ever a good game with interesting and varied game modes, large scale battles, connection to Eve etc... maybe then tiercide makes sense because Dust will have features that separate it from other games in the MMOFPS genre Noone says "Oh man, I cant wait to grind out this weeks cap..." If you tiericide, the only grind will be to improve the bonuses on your suit, but you wont be obligated to it just to be competitive. Itll also reduce "protostomping" and make the game more enjoyable for new players, who might decide to stick around instead of leaving after 2 matches. I say things like: I can't wait to unlock level 5 in Scrambler rifle and use that Viziam ScR or unlock that proto suit or get level 5 profile dampening. I know the last one is a bad example because I assume passive skills will still have levels. But even if I was completely on the tiercide bandwagon, if CCP were to implement this you are taking away half of the monetization of this game. Also, what are you going to do about BPO gear. You going to have closed beta vets like myself have unlimited copies of gear that is just as good as everything else in its class? Thanks, maybe this tiercide is a great idea afterall
LOL. Only suits need to get tiericide. Mods and weapons would remained tiered, as it is in EVE.
BPO suits would get ADV stats, and become the new miltia, regular suits get proto stats.
See, not that hard was it? |
Quil Evrything
Triple Terrors
1364
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 16:56:00 -
[106] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
LOL. Only suits need to get tiericide. Mods and weapons would remained tiered, as it is in EVE.
BPO suits would get ADV stats, and become the new miltia, regular suits get proto stats.
See, not that hard was it?
Or, contrariwise, BPO and militia suits stay as they are. Toss both "basic" and "proto" suits. Leave ADV as the "this is what you skill into" suit. Proto level is where sanity goes out the window. Keep things at the ADV level, and the specialization between different suit types, actually stays meaningful.
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Goric Rumis
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
413
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:07:00 -
[107] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
LOL. Only suits need to get tiericide. Mods and weapons would remained tiered, as it is in EVE.
BPO suits would get ADV stats, and become the new miltia, regular suits get proto stats.
See, not that hard was it?
Or, contrariwise, BPO and militia suits stay as they are. Toss both "basic" and "proto" suits. Leave ADV as the "this is what you skill into" suit. Proto level is where sanity goes out the window. Keep things at the ADV level, and the specialization between different suit types, actually stays meaningful. Not a bad idea, actually. Your current BPO standard suits would be a step up from militia but not as good as what you'd buy off the in-game market. Would that leave militia too underpowered, though?
What Is Tiericide and Why?
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Quil Evrything
Triple Terrors
1365
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:11:00 -
[108] - Quote
Goric Rumis wrote:Your current BPO standard suits would be a step up from militia but not as good as what you'd buy off the in-game market.
actually, MOST BPO suits are just militia. It's only a few rare ones that are "special". (last time I checked, anyways)
For example, I have an Eon (Amarr) heavy suit BPO. 1H 1L Grr.
PS: militia fits *should* be underpowered. otherwise people dont have sufficient incentive to skill into the good stuff. |
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