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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14347
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Posted - 2014.04.28 16:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tericide would do.
Teiricide is not only the removal of teirs but introduction of roles.
The problem with the current system is that
A < B on the simple grounds that B is A+1.
Undera more ideal teiricide system
A = B on the grounds that neither have anything better than the other in every way. Both do different things their own ways. Of course imperfection or needs of roles will skew the popularity between A and B the two can find competition in various performances.
Dust 514 however if a tericide where to happen we are likely to see a removal of roles and a focus on roles.
Where
Assault Lineup
A [militia]< B [basic frame] < E [basic specialist] < C[adv frame] < F [adv specialist] < D [Proto Frame] < G [Proto Specialist]
Would likely turns into
An Assault suit that emphasizes the Assault Role and performs it well.
and developer time willing then
A second assault suit that may have a similar but different approach to the role in the same race. With possible third fourth and more.
Where no one assault suit is numerically just better because it's a tier 9 but better because its closer to what the player wants to play as.
This would also mean majority of the new stats and the like may see a major shift away from the suits and may dump veterancy onto the skills instead; or maybe modules get a stronger emphasis or a mix of the two; it sup to ccp if they do the teiricide.
I am in support where the modules remain largely the same in line up and may absorb more of the cost of the suit squash.
But I am open to hearing other possible models of role focus over power focus.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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14350
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Posted - 2014.04.28 16:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles
Can't talk about it at the moment. Maybe after fanfest.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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14351
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Posted - 2014.04.28 16:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Good post +1. Though it's spelled "Tiercide" ("tier" + "-cide") not "Teiricide"
Thank you tiercide is always redlined on mine and its a bad habbit I never overcame.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.04.28 16:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles Can't talk about it at the moment. Maybe after fanfest. Hmmm... *whispers* Blink once for yes and twice for no are they releasing the next build soon
 *Stares Unblinking*
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.28 16:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:You make it sound pretty nice but I worry that it will only dumb things down like it did for vehicles.
vehicles where overdone then again the previous offerings where an effing terrible mess.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.28 17:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:There are so many ways that Dust and Eve are different. The reason that the variety of roles CAN exist in Eve is not limited too:
-The rate of fire, tracking ability, and reload of turrets/launchers are all automated in eve, outsourcing the damage application to the client.
-Damage application in Eve is more about positioning than any kind of 'turret game',
-Targets rotate around the 'shooter' in 3 axis, while in dust this is mostly 2
-Damage projection is a function of the interplay between the 'virtual hitboxes' of sig radius and the 'rotation speed' of turrets in addition to falloff, optimal range, and some other factors. This only has meaning because the damage application is largely automatic.
-In a system where damage application is MUCH MORE analog/manual the equivelencies of 'role differentiation' are FALSE.
To have the kind 'role depth' of cruiser > destroyer > frigate interplay between dropsuits assumes some things about the damage application that don't yet exist in the game, and I have not yet seen displayed.
Even then having tires that do nothing is unhealthy for the game to keep them in as is. This will also go a long way to empowering newer players at least. That the power differences are not 500% apart in some cases.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14355
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Posted - 2014.04.28 17:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Obodiah Garro wrote:tiercide i feel is pointless for dust atm, there isnt enough variety with dropsuits, also there is also 1 dropsuit per class.
Dust needs more role bonuses to make different dropsuits substantially more different from each other, tiercide would only truly work if we had say 4 different galente assault suits to choose from and 1 was obviously superior to the other 3.
Like I said the current likely route is a squash before the flattening expands out. Until CCP can shove more hooks into being bonusable as well as more weapons; equipment; modules we are likely not going to be able to add a second role to any of the lineups.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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14360
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Posted - 2014.04.28 17:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea.
...
blah blah TL;DR
If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that.
"Empowering player decisions and rewarding those decisions."
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.28 17:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:You make it sound pretty nice but I worry that it will only dumb things down like it did for vehicles. vehicles where overdone then again the previous offerings where an effing terrible mess. I really hope something gets done about vehicle module progression. If the hulls are going to remain tiericided as they are (no ADV and PRO vehicle hulls), then there has to be more distinction between module tiers other than just cooldown times. Passive mods are fine, since they are tiered. Active modules are problematic because they all provide the same buffs across all tiers.
Right; just need to be careful to keep relevance with the vehicles though. Right now the tiericide stripped them quite a bit and too much of the vehicle is now reliant on their modules itself which is further reducing veterancy of vehicles.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14372
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Details are nice but details never survive any plan with ccp you have to understand that.
Concept level is overall the more important concept to sell to CCP though.
Getting lost in the nitty gritty is a terrible way to set poor expectations (or great ones) and destroy them when ccp comes out with and at times details can distract from obtaining something that accomplishes tiericides goals smartly or identifying poorly thought out ideas instead.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14373
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:I'll just leave this here... Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Heres how it would work, as I imagine it:
Take the unbonused frame suits (light med and heavy) and keep the ADV as the new militia variants, none of which would require SP. The pro, you get to try out these suits, but they dont specialized, dont get any kind of bonus. basically, they are there for you to try out, find your playstyle before you commit SP.
Now, regular suits. All suits are to be replaced by their Proto equivilent. Example:
To unlock a minmatar Logi suit, you need to invest first in the Minmatar Dropsuit skill (this replaces the min light, med and heavy suit skills, SP sinks as they are). Different tiers of this skill unlock the different types of suit, similarly to todays dropsuit command skill, which I would remove. 1=Assault, 3=Scout,pilot, 5= sentinel, etc.
Minmatar Dropsuits 3 > Minmatar Logistics 1 = todays proto min logi.
Now, this suit will not be at its full potential, but you have the same amount of slots as everyone else and fitting. But, with the skill at just 1, you wont be as powerful, but you will be close. As you add more SP to the suit skill it gets better.
Caldari Dropsuits 5 > Caldari Commando 1 = todays proto Calcommando.
etc
TL;DR: all suits are now protosuits, SP just makes them better thru bonuses, nearly equalizing suits thru fitting, and not relying on "content = variety"
yup one way to skin this cat. There are plenty of other ways too.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14381
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:I still don't get it and I still don't get what the point of SP is for except to then unlock more things laterally which to me makes Dust about as pointless as every other multiplayer FPS shooter out there in its current state.
and this is a problem Tiericide can fix easily by shifting all of the suit's previous progression between teirs into the skill points instead and can be tweaked to not give overtly massive advantage to the veteran.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14381
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:...
Concept level is overall the more important concept to sell to CCP though.
...
Also far as I am concerned; you can forget anything about gear restrictions. Those restraints if ever made are going to be constructs of players own design and tools; not the developers.
Approximate skill matching is something being looked into but gear will never be factored as a part of it. What you have implicitly just stated there, is: "CCP supports, and stands behind, protostomping. They like it, so it must always be protected". In which case, what I have to say is,
"Screw you CCP, I'm out of here"
You implicably stated you don't bother to try to understand or read or understand the situation.
You need to understand not every idea anyone including myself can be considered a good idea and have thoroughly explained it before.
Sell me your destruction of the player base with your Militia, basic, basic specialist, advanced, advanced specialist, prototype and prototype specialist lobbies and throw on top vehicles and no vehicles with basic, advanced and prototype restrictions each then throw on top the 'i don't care about filter' lobby as well.
You got 3 sentences to convince me otherwise go.
Oh and before you get to far into it
TWINK
SMURF
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:While I did at one time think this was a good idea, I've since changed my mind on the matter. So a question for you.
What is so wrong with the current system? It would seem the difference gear makes on performance. But isn't this a matter that could be solved with a unique matchmaking system?
Just for example, one that uses meta to determine fits usable in battle. Tiered matchmaking even. What is so wrong with those ideas, that you would have to rework everything from the ground up?
World of Warcraft
Woot I have Windfury!
Burn Crusade
... RIP windfury... Hello Starfury
Lich King
Starfury lulz? No Frostmorn is where its at
Cataclysm
Frostmorn? get out of here with that noob you should be having a Fangs of the Father.
Mysts of Padas
Legendaries what are those?
Dust 514
Milita
Standard
Advanced
Prototype (skipped)
Standard specialist
Advanced specialist
Prototype specialist
Future Dust 514 without teiricide
Tech 2 basic
Tech 2 advanced
Tech 2 Prototype
Tech 1 masters basic
Tech 1 masters advanced
Tech 1 masters prototype
Tech 3 basic
Tech 3 advanced
Tech 3 prototype
Officer basic....
You get the idea.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14384
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience.
Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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14385
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience.
Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in. But the game is still incomplete. We don't even have all the core content yet and I don't see it being practical at the moment.
Well you have a point; but I feel that conversations about features we have a much better idea of impact of is generally more healthy than discussing over features we cannot simulate or comprehend game wise.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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14387
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
dullrust wrote:I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function.
Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not).
Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits.
I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out.
Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it.
You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon.
The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper.
Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does.
But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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14389
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Quil Evrything wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:...
...
Also far as I am concerned; you can forget anything about gear restrictions. ...
Approximate skill matching is something being looked into but gear will never be factored as a part of it. What you have implicitly just stated there, is: "CCP supports, and stands behind, protostomping. They like it, so it must always be protected". ... You implicably stated you don't bother to try to understand or read or understand the situation. (other distractions and insults snipped) Well, that's interesting. You neither tried to justify CCP's attitude, nor did you claim that is not their attitude. Deliberate attempt to change the subject away from what you wrote? Let's try again. What you wrote, implies that you have heard specific statements from CCP employees, along the lines that they LIKE having the power of massive gear level imbalances between players, therefore, gear restricted game modes will never be implemented. True, or false?
Neither. The suggestion to CCP is rhetorical. One does not simply waste time asking about things one already knows the answer to. It's insulting and makes you look off base and very undeserving of the CPM because the mere idea is so un dust un eve un sandbox and ultimately NOT FUN. This is like is trying to suggest to the MLB to play baseball with an american football. Merely I am simply pointing out the idea of fractured lobbies has not been fully thought out on your end. One also does not make assumptions of deprivation/ discrimination or support because of unwillingness or lack of action to make himself look like a victim for in my eyes you deserve everything thrown at you.
They are not going to split the active player base that is playing pub matches into incomplete and very skewed matches where once again you fail to address the issue of twinking and smurfing if you are not familiar with these terms you have not played enough games where bracketing is highly common and these are nearly epidemic plagues in those games that go unresolved because there is no way to counter those without further hurting everyone including veterans the most.
What next SP brackets? gear brackets? epeen meter? Gearscore??? None of these will fix protostomp; cept for the name of the protostomp and a new problem starts up; its called orphaning. Having players forced in lobbies where they really don't belong and have no desire to be there which then has lead to many more unhealthier behaviors such as deleveling unranking and quitting and starting a new alt which will lead to the stoppage of purchases.
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Simple exercise; try it.
Tiericide various models that have been thought out by many players have very interesting answers along the way across the entire tree of Whys that increases freedom expands the progression and evolves close to a better solution.
Bracket Gaming only kills more freedom with every answer of why because there is no other solution but to restrict players to the point they're only going to fight people that mutually want to fight back; and one doesn't have to look far to see evidence that ccp is getting far away from this route as far as possible.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
dullrust wrote:oh well just my opinion. 
you're entitled to it of course.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.04.29 00:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Teilka Darkmist wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda. Not really as a cruiser in Eve has a hard time killing a frigate due to tracking speed and signature radius. A heavy in Dust has no problems removing a light or medium frame suit from Dust. I can see comparing them to well tanked destroyers though, rather than frigates.
for a eve to dust comparison it should be more heavies are destroyer class, HAVs are cruisers, and everyone frigates.
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