DUST Search - Still not understanding Teiricide?

Maken Tosch wrote:

ZDub 303 wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

Django Quik wrote:

Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game.

Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then.

In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage.

I call bull... yeah we dont have 46 variations of dropsuits yet but we could just as easily apply eve's tiercide mechanics to dust's dropsuits TODAY. On top of that, less labor is required to balance future assets as they are released. It is a win-win to tiercide dropsuits asap.

Exhumer's did not need supercaptial ships being released before tiercide made sense, and neither does existing dust assets need future assets before tiercide makes sense.

Tiercide today, less work tomorrow.

I can give you one clear example why tieraciding the Dust suits TODAY would be a bad idea.

Heavy weapons for Heavy suits. Or... lack of Heavy weapons I should say.

Right now we only have 2 (two) heavy weapons available. One is Caldari (I think) which is the forge gun and the other is Minmatar which is the HMG. The Amarr and Gallente variant is still not available. If CCP does the tieracide for all suits without the remaining the heavy weapons, then the tieracide will only be balanced around two weapons instead of all four for the heavy suits. This is not the way to go about balancing especially when you have to later waste more time rebalancing old weapons with new ones of the exact same class as they come in. The same can be said for nova knives. There is only one racial set and that is the Caldari Nova Knives. There are suppose to be three other racial knives coming later on. This will likely involve the scouts especially the Minmatar Scout since it's a Minmatar suit using a Caldari Knife (go figure).

Now, if you tieracide just the medium suits we'll have no problem since every light weapon and sidearm has finally been made available for every race. But then again all the heavy and scout players will feel left out if just the mediums get the tieracide.


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ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2591	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:00:00 - [1] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Django Quik wrote: Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. I call bull... yeah we dont have 46 variations of dropsuits yet but we could just as easily apply eve's tiercide mechanics to dust's dropsuits TODAY. On top of that, less labor is required to balance future assets as they are released. It is a win-win to tiercide dropsuits asap. Exhumer's did not need supercaptial ships being released before tiercide made sense, and neither does existing dust assets need future assets before tiercide makes sense. Tiercide today, less work tomorrow.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2591	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:26:00 - [2] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Django Quik wrote: Tiericide won't happen in Dust until there is a LOT more content. Tiericide didn't happen in Eve when each race had only a handful of ships; we're going to be waiting a long long time for there to be enough suits and roles for this to have a chance of being beneficial to the game. Which is why tieracide in Eve Online didn't occur until around 2012 even though Eve came out in 2003. When Eve was released, there were no dedicated Mining Barges or Exhumers, no Subcapitals to Super Capitals, no Tech 3 ships, no Tier 3 ships, etc. Basically almost half of the ships you see in Eve now didn't exist back then. In order for Dust to have a practical tieracide, there will have to be more content to compensate. So far, we are severely limited. We don't have bubble shields, we don't have remote shield repariers, we don't have fighters, we don't have medium assault vehicles, we don't pilot suits, and we don't even have all the tanks/LAVs/Dropships for that matter. There is just too much missing to make effective tieracide at this stage. I call bull... yeah we dont have 46 variations of dropsuits yet but we could just as easily apply eve's tiercide mechanics to dust's dropsuits TODAY. On top of that, less labor is required to balance future assets as they are released. It is a win-win to tiercide dropsuits asap. Exhumer's did not need supercaptial ships being released before tiercide made sense, and neither does existing dust assets need future assets before tiercide makes sense. Tiercide today, less work tomorrow. I can give you one clear example why tieraciding the Dust suits TODAY would be a bad idea. Heavy weapons for Heavy suits. Or... lack of Heavy weapons I should say. Right now we only have 2 (two) heavy weapons available. One is Caldari (I think) which is the forge gun and the other is Minmatar which is the HMG. The Amarr and Gallente variant is still not available. If CCP does the tieracide for all suits without the remaining the heavy weapons, then the tieracide will only be balanced around two weapons instead of all four for the heavy suits. This is not the way to go about balancing especially when you have to later waste more time rebalancing old weapons with new ones of the exact same class as they come in. The same can be said for nova knives. There is only one racial set and that is the Caldari Nova Knives. There are suppose to be three other racial knives coming later on. This will likely involve the scouts especially the Minmatar Scout since it's a Minmatar suit using a Caldari Knife (go figure). Now, if you tieracide just the medium suits we'll have no problem since every light weapon and sidearm has finally been made available for every race. But then again all the heavy and scout players will feel left out if just the mediums get the tieracide. I guess I don't understand, current heavy suits do just fine atm, why would removing tiers on heavy suits cause any problems? Just cause eve has turret bonuses doesn't mean dust needs to have gun bonuses on everything. We could just as easily release a new specialized variant down the road that has heavy weaponry bonus after all of the heavy weapons have been added. We could just give basic frames ehp or fitting bonuses and everything is still in place. Basic Heavy Frame bonus could easily just be 3% PG/CPU per level or something simple. There is a benefit to devoting SP into basic frames but its not a massive power differential that PRO heavy vs STD heavy suffers now. Removing std and adv tier heavy suits and giving new players pro suits doesn't do anything but level the playing field for new players some. yes there is still a difference between a heavy with HMG maxed out and a heavy with HMG at Op 1 but its not as silly as it is now.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2598	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:19:00 - [3] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda.