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Rusty Shallows Caldari State 1699	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:24:00 - [61] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The more I talk with people who disagree the more I find out most are just confused to what tiericide would do and may be the source of their opposition against the idea. ... blah blah TL;DR If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that. "Empowering player decisions and rewarding those decisions." Fail. That's about equivalent to "Let's enhance productivity by leveraging synnergy!!" snip I'll take a shot at the three sentence challenge. (Game Architectural) Tiericide is the redesign of specific game elements in relation to each other. Instead of rewarding investments with power-creep the player unlocks more options for play. Other redesign elements are made to better fulfill their role or even have a purpose that was denied to them because of tiers. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14383	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:27:00 - [62] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: While I did at one time think this was a good idea, I've since changed my mind on the matter. So a question for you. What is so wrong with the current system? It would seem the difference gear makes on performance. But isn't this a matter that could be solved with a unique matchmaking system? Just for example, one that uses meta to determine fits usable in battle. Tiered matchmaking even. What is so wrong with those ideas, that you would have to rework everything from the ground up? World of Warcraft Woot I have Windfury! Burn Crusade ... RIP windfury... Hello Starfury Lich King Starfury lulz? No Frostmorn is where its at Cataclysm Frostmorn? get out of here with that noob you should be having a Fangs of the Father. Mysts of Padas Legendaries what are those? Dust 514 Milita Standard Advanced Prototype (skipped) Standard specialist Advanced specialist Prototype specialist Future Dust 514 without teiricide Tech 2 basic Tech 2 advanced Tech 2 Prototype Tech 1 masters basic Tech 1 masters advanced Tech 1 masters prototype Tech 3 basic Tech 3 advanced Tech 3 prototype Officer basic.... You get the idea. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
KING CHECKMATE Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 5262	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:36:00 - [63] - Quote You know why tiercide is stupid? the moment it gets implemented im going back to Battlefield/Planetside series... I mean, we are ALL GOING TO USE equally powerful stuff but without the need to grind then there is not purpose here.... DUST514 attraction is that is a FPS with RPG elements. in RPS's , players level up. In World of warcraft a level 5 elf will never kill a level 50 Paladin. Here in dust a militia gear 3 mill SP player can kill a full proto 40 mill player, its not impossible , just harder. I thought this game was like Dark souls , harder enemies but bigger rewards. Challenging. but seems yellowbellies are yet too whiny about proto gear even when my proto E-war scout suit costs 190k and your G-1 scout BPO with shotgun fit costs 8k...They DONT SEE THE RISK, they are just like, aww.He got me, six kin ACR. Aww. got me again,.aww got me again,freakn proto stomper, aww got me again. Yay i got him once! YES, i lost against him... He lost 32k I lost 190k. But numskulls here just care about K/D not about ISK.... This is the true meaning of Dust514.ISK, mercenaries....etc. You choose what you want to risk. Like drones? = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153604&find=unread
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 320	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:38:00 - [64] - Quote ishtellian wrote: Just to clarify, Tiercide, an example would be Amarr and Gallente logistics ships in Eve, they both rep armor and support a fleet, but Guardians ( Amarr ) are better for logi chains, and Oneiros ( Gallente ) is better at solo work. They both do the same job, but do it differently fitting more playstyles. is that kinda what Tiercide is? another example, in Eve the Gallente Assault frigates, Enyo utilizes guns, whereas Ishkur utilizes drones. Is that kinda what Tiercide is? Kind of, let me try and clarify. The easiest way to think about tiericide it to look at a specific faction. Lets say that before tiericide there were 5 Amarr frigates whose power relative to each other looked like this: A > B > C > D > E This mirrors DUST's suit progression where pro > adv > std > mlt. After tiericide you had 5 different frigates that were all on the same power level but did things differently. One focused on close range brawling, another on longer range kiting, one switched away from lasers and uses drones as its weapon system, one does logistics, and the last focuses on scanning, etc. They are all still amarr frigates, but each one has a unique flavor, without being clearly better than another. Thats what tiericide is about. MORE variety, with a smaller power gap for new players to have to overcome. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8146	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:42:00 - [65] - Quote The point that we're missing here is that Dust, in its current state is not in any condition to have a tieracide. At the moment, most of the weapons and suits are balanced (although assaults need some love I think). But as more suits, vehicles, and other things get added and rebalanced, a tieracide might later become the practical solution. Bare in mind though that tieracide in Eve took at least 8 years to happen AFTER Eve was released back in 2003. Let's also not forget that the Eve Community was pushing CCP (via the CSM) to address the mess that was created by the old ship tier system. If Dust follows the same pattern, we will likely not see tieracide until it is actually practical to implement. It will also depend on the Dust Community via any future CPM and all of that could take another 8 years. So in the meantime, the only thing we are achieving right now is just giving CCP an early concept of tieracide which will not be realized for a very long time. Besides, even if tieracide is actually practical today, we have more pressing concerns to deal with first. 1. Lack of PvE and NPE. 2. Lack of Eve-Dust interaction. 3. Lack of secondary market. 4. No proper matchmaking. 5. Lag. 6. Broken PC. 7. Too much ISK circulating and not enough ISK sinks. etc. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14384	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:45:00 - [66] - Quote I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience. Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8146	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:46:00 - [67] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: You know why tiercide is stupid? the moment it gets implemented im going back to Battlefield/Planetside series... I mean, we are ALL GOING TO USE equally powerful stuff but without the need to grind then there is not purpose here.... DUST514 attraction is that is a FPS with RPG elements. in RPS's , players level up. In a RPG a level 5 elf will never kill a level 50 Paladin. Here in dust a militia gear 3 mill SP player can kill a full proto 40 mill player, its not impossible , just harder. I thought this game was like Dark souls , harder enemies but bigger rewards. Challenging. but seems yellowbellies are yet too whiny about proto gear even when my proto E-war scout suit costs 190k and your G-1 scout BPO with shotgun fit costs 8k...They DONT SEE THE RISK, they are just like, aww.He got me, six kin ACR. Aww. got me again,.aww got me again,freakn proto stomper, aww got me again. Yay i got him once! YES, i lost against him... He lost 32k I lost 190k. But numskulls here just care about K/D not about ISK.... This is the true meaning of Dust514.ISK, mercenaries....etc. You choose what you want to risk. The kind of Tieracide I was thinking is the kind in which all weapons start the same at level 1 but then one unique aspect of every different weapon becomes enhanced as you level up. The Exhumers that I used earlier as an example shows what I mean. This concept is by no means similar to what Halo has. In Halo, everything is absolutely the same no matter how leveled up you are. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8146	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:48:00 - [68] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience. Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in. But the game is still incomplete. We don't even have all the core content yet and I don't see it being practical at the moment. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14385	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:51:00 - [69] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I just feel that not doing tiericide is excessively more harmful for the long lifespan of the game than not doing it though as it is costing new players and player progression is deeply embedded into the new player experience. Tiericide even a quick hit is something that requires no new assets to make happen leaving other teams more focused on getting the other features out and could be even possibly be something that can get hotfixed in. But the game is still incomplete. We don't even have all the core content yet and I don't see it being practical at the moment. Well you have a point; but I feel that conversations about features we have a much better idea of impact of is generally more healthy than discussing over features we cannot simulate or comprehend game wise. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8148	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:02:00 - [70] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: I still don't get it and I still don't get what the point of SP is for except to then unlock more things laterally which to me makes Dust about as pointless as every other multiplayer FPS shooter out there in its current state. In this case I think the focus should be on restricting tieracide to suits and vehicles while keeping the current tier system in place for modules and weapons. Eve Online has both a tieracide system for ships but a tiered system still in place for turrets and modules. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor

ishtellian SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 64	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:11:00 - [71] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: ishtellian wrote: Just to clarify, Tiercide, an example would be Amarr and Gallente logistics ships in Eve, they both rep armor and support a fleet, but Guardians ( Amarr ) are better for logi chains, and Oneiros ( Gallente ) is better at solo work. They both do the same job, but do it differently fitting more playstyles. is that kinda what Tiercide is? another example, in Eve the Gallente Assault frigates, Enyo utilizes guns, whereas Ishkur utilizes drones. Is that kinda what Tiercide is? Kind of, let me try and clarify. The easiest way to think about tiericide it to look at a specific faction. Lets say that before tiericide there were 5 Amarr frigates whose power relative to each other looked like this: A > B > C > D > E This mirrors DUST's suit progression where pro > adv > std > mlt. After tiericide you had 5 different frigates that were all on the same power level but did things differently. One focused on close range brawling, another on longer range kiting, one switched away from lasers and uses drones as its weapon system, one does logistics, and the last focuses on scanning, etc. They are all still amarr frigates, but each one has a unique flavor, without being clearly better than another. Thats what tiericide is about. MORE variety, with a smaller power gap for new players to have to overcome. Thanks, I get it. My Heavy Never Dies. Logibro In training.
Rusty Shallows Caldari State 1700	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:14:00 - [72] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: I still don't get it and I still don't get what the point of SP is for except to then unlock more things laterally which to me makes Dust about as pointless as every other multiplayer FPS shooter out there in its current state. In this case I think the focus should be on restricting tieracide to suits and vehicles while keeping the current tier system in place for modules and weapons. Eve Online has both a tieracide system for ships but a tiered system still in place for turrets and modules. I was wondering how long it was going to take for that nuance to come out. No one is suggesting the act of Tiericide should be done for the sake of ideology. It really is best as a solution for identified problems. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
axis alpha Red Star. EoN. 328	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 - [73] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Aint seen you in a hot minute... On a more topic related note what do you think would happen to the commando role as it is a very interesting mix of several roles Can't talk about it at the moment. Maybe after fanfest. Hmmmmmmmmm We won't follow the deceiver. You let this be your warning. The path of the wretched is burning..
dullrust Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 66	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:24:00 - [74] - Quote I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function. Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not). Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits. I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. I am nobody.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14387	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:30:00 - [75] - Quote dullrust wrote: I have always thought of the dropsuits right now as the military versions. These are their builds that each faction has decided fits their needs. Whether those needs are constrained by monetary, form, or function. Due to these and other things some should be "better" than others. Better being a relative term. But costs, fitting ability, and such may vary wildly (or not). Given all that and the fact we have an extra level in dropsuit command. I always hoped we would see a suit that we could design ourselves. In simplest terms. You buy a suit you have X amount of "points" to work with. Adding slots or not can have different effects on cpu/pg, ewar, speed, and so on. This is from the getgo no modules or anything. You are making a suit for you not using the standard military suits. I'm not going to derail your thread with more than that though. But in the end this would be teirecide at it's apex. Can't really have tiers if there is no real diffrence to start out. Its more like having the same M-16 receiver but where you get the addon parts to it changes everything up about what it does its role and even what sort of gun registering you need for it. You can under the right circumstances register an AR-15 (civvie m-16) as a pistol and its a highly functional indoor weapon. The very same receiver can be then tweaked out to be a sniper. Then there is quality of said parts. I can get a cheap made in china laser that breaks after I shoot once. Or I get the ones the swat teams rely on and lasts as long as the battery does. But an Ar-15 is an Ar-15 is still an Ar-15. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
dullrust Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 66	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:39:00 - [76] - Quote oh well just my opinion. I am nobody.
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1335	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:56:00 - [77] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: If you cant explain why your idea is a great thing in 3 sentances or less, it will never get the popular vote. Please work on that. "Empowering player decisions and rewarding those decisions." Fail. That's about equivalent to "Let's enhance productivity by leveraging synnergy!!" snip I'll take a shot at the three sentence challenge. (Game Architectural) Tiericide is the redesign of specific game elements in relation to each other. Instead of rewarding investments with power-creep the player unlocks more options for play. Other redesign elements are made to better fulfill their role or even have a purpose that was denied to them because of tiers. Well, you certainly did a better job than IWS at it. But still too general. "other options". "other ...elements". How about throwing in a sentence with a specific example? Suggested framework: S1: Problem with current situation S2: Example of fix S3: S2 is better than S1, because....
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1338	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:02:00 - [78] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... ... Also far as I am concerned; you can forget anything about gear restrictions. ... Approximate skill matching is something being looked into but gear will never be factored as a part of it. What you have implicitly just stated there, is: "CCP supports, and stands behind, protostomping. They like it, so it must always be protected". ... You implicably stated you don't bother to try to understand or read or understand the situation. (other distractions and insults snipped) Well, that's interesting. You neither tried to justify CCP's attitude, nor did you claim that is not their attitude. Deliberate attempt to change the subject away from what you wrote? Let's try again. What you wrote, implies that you have heard specific statements from CCP employees, along the lines that they LIKE having the power of massive gear level imbalances between players, therefore, gear restricted game modes will never be implemented. True, or false?
Teilka Darkmist 302	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:07:00 - [79] - Quote Here's the main thing I think people aren't getting about tiercide as it relates to Dust and compares to Eve. They seem to be equating each level of dropsuit with a different class of eve ship, standard = frigates, advanced = cruisers proto = batteships. When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 Vehicles fit outside that system, I've not really worked them out as my only experience of using vehicles is using an LAV to get me to the other end of the map quicker. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2598	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:19:00 - [80] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda.

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14389	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:21:00 - [81] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... ... Also far as I am concerned; you can forget anything about gear restrictions. ... Approximate skill matching is something being looked into but gear will never be factored as a part of it. What you have implicitly just stated there, is: "CCP supports, and stands behind, protostomping. They like it, so it must always be protected". ... You implicably stated you don't bother to try to understand or read or understand the situation. (other distractions and insults snipped) Well, that's interesting. You neither tried to justify CCP's attitude, nor did you claim that is not their attitude. Deliberate attempt to change the subject away from what you wrote? Let's try again. What you wrote, implies that you have heard specific statements from CCP employees, along the lines that they LIKE having the power of massive gear level imbalances between players, therefore, gear restricted game modes will never be implemented. True, or false? Neither. The suggestion to CCP is rhetorical. One does not simply waste time asking about things one already knows the answer to. It's insulting and makes you look off base and very undeserving of the CPM because the mere idea is so un dust un eve un sandbox and ultimately NOT FUN. This is like is trying to suggest to the MLB to play baseball with an american football. Merely I am simply pointing out the idea of fractured lobbies has not been fully thought out on your end. One also does not make assumptions of deprivation/ discrimination or support because of unwillingness or lack of action to make himself look like a victim for in my eyes you deserve everything thrown at you. They are not going to split the active player base that is playing pub matches into incomplete and very skewed matches where once again you fail to address the issue of twinking and smurfing if you are not familiar with these terms you have not played enough games where bracketing is highly common and these are nearly epidemic plagues in those games that go unresolved because there is no way to counter those without further hurting everyone including veterans the most. What next SP brackets? gear brackets? epeen meter? Gearscore??? None of these will fix protostomp; cept for the name of the protostomp and a new problem starts up; its called orphaning. Having players forced in lobbies where they really don't belong and have no desire to be there which then has lead to many more unhealthier behaviors such as deleveling unranking and quitting and starting a new alt which will lead to the stoppage of purchases. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Simple exercise; try it. Tiericide various models that have been thought out by many players have very interesting answers along the way across the entire tree of Whys that increases freedom expands the progression and evolves close to a better solution. Bracket Gaming only kills more freedom with every answer of why because there is no other solution but to restrict players to the point they're only going to fight people that mutually want to fight back; and one doesn't have to look far to see evidence that ccp is getting far away from this route as far as possible. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14389	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:22:00 - [82] - Quote dullrust wrote: oh well just my opinion. you're entitled to it of course. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Teilka Darkmist 302	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:00:00 - [83] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda. Not really as a cruiser in Eve has a hard time killing a frigate due to tracking speed and signature radius. A heavy in Dust has no problems removing a light or medium frame suit from Dust. I can see comparing them to well tanked destroyers though, rather than frigates. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14390	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:03:00 - [84] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda. Not really as a cruiser in Eve has a hard time killing a frigate due to tracking speed and signature radius. A heavy in Dust has no problems removing a light or medium frame suit from Dust. I can see comparing them to well tanked destroyers though, rather than frigates. for a eve to dust comparison it should be more heavies are destroyer class, HAVs are cruisers, and everyone frigates. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Teilka Darkmist 302	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:14:00 - [85] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: When in fact, we're all running around in the equivalent of frigates and the dropsuit levels are the individual tiers in that class. Standard is T1, Advanced is T2 and Proto is T3 That's not necessarily correct... Basic Frame is Tech I Specialist Frame is Tech II (Assault, Logi, Scout, Sentinel, etc) Eve has no equivalent to STD/ADV/PRO tiers, because they tiercided their ship line up. I agree that we are all pretty much running around in Frigates. If anything I would says Light and Medium frame suits are like frigates while heavy suits are like cruisers and the commando is like a destroyer kinda. Not really as a cruiser in Eve has a hard time killing a frigate due to tracking speed and signature radius. A heavy in Dust has no problems removing a light or medium frame suit from Dust. I can see comparing them to well tanked destroyers though, rather than frigates. for a eve to dust comparison it should be more heavies are destroyer class, HAVs are cruisers, and everyone frigates. A good point, well made. I accept your version of my analogy as more accurate. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
excillon Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 378	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:23:00 - [86] - Quote Sure why not. It can't hurt. This game is already broken to sh!t anyhow.
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 698	Posted - 2014.04.29 01:19:00 - [87] - Quote although i agree that the skill tree and how you get to new stuff is a bit wonky i do not believe tiericide is the option It'll help define roles, i promise:)
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 400	Posted - 2014.04.29 04:41:00 - [88] - Quote Okay, here we go. (I've found my posts mostly either get ignored or end the discussion, so if this kills the thread, my apologies to IWS.) Fundamentally, what's being called "tiericide" is the same thing from EVE to DUST, not because ship hulls equate to dropsuits but because of the design philosophy. WHAT TIERICIDE IS (PHILOSOPHY) "Tiericide" is a transitional step moving from one design philosophy to another. Specifically, it's moving from a philosophy where experience and money buy greater power to one where every item in the game has a purpose. This was the stated intent as far as I saw of the "tiericide" effort in EVE: that a player with 10 years of skill training would have some reasonable justification to use every ship for which that player had trained. To clarify, "tiericide" is not a long-term solution. The long-term solution is the design philosophy. "Tiericide" is a way of getting from the current philosophy to a new philosophy. One could reasonably consider the current design philosophy "pay-to-win." This is because investing more ISK in your fit buys more power, with absolutely no downside other than the increased cost. The new philosophy, on the other hand, considers ISK to be an economic factor rather than a balancing factor. When you consider opening the DUST economy to simple trading, mining, manufacturing, and research, let alone EVE, you may start to see how the simple ISK-for-power tradeoff becomes problematic. At the very least, it can contribute to a steep money-power loop. HOW TO IMPLEMENT TIERICIDE There are different camps. As IWS pointed out, it's not a great idea to go to CCP with specifics. (I've spent a lot of time on corporate strategy, so I can relate.) But for the purpose of this explanation, let's outline three. First up is complete tiericide. Everything in the game that currently has tiers, gets cut down to one item. Instead of standard, advanced, and prototype codebreaker modules, you get one codebreaker module. Same with suits. Weapons would still have variants, but it would just be assault rifle, tactical assault rifle, breach assault rifle, and burst assault rifle--no standard, advanced, or proto. Second is to put downsides on all equipment. This turns "better" equipment into "more specialized" equipment. For example, one prototype Scout suit might have a higher scan profile than its standard variant, while another might be slower than the standard, in exchange for other advantages or more PG/CPU. A prototype rail rifle might be more powerful but also have more kick than a standard variant. The final approach I'll discuss is proposed in the original post in this thread. Simply remove the suit tiers. There will be one militia heavy frame, one basic heavy frame, one Commando, and one Sentinel for each race. Same with medium and light suits. Modules and weapons go untouched. The reasoning behind this is that the module, weapons, and equipment tiers have to balance around the suit's fixed PG/CPU. No one will be able to fill every slot with a prototype item, so for every fit you will have to choose whether you want more power in one slot at the expense of power in another slot. Thus the remaining standard/advanced/prototype tiers for modules, weapons, and equipment are justified on the basis of fittings costs and tradeoffs, not just ISK. THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE The most widespread impact will be an increase in variety without having to add any new content. Instead of just buying the most expensive version of all the same modules (I very much doubt that there's a whole lot of variation in how people fit Sentinels, for example), players will have to make choices about how the equipment they're choosing will impact the way they play. The biggest potential negative impact is that players may feel less "elite" if higher tiers are removed, and disincentivize spending and skills. Going from driving a Ferrari to driving a Honda isn't functionally different, but the way you feel about it is different. I believe, if done right, that players won't really miss the tiers because of the ability to unlock variety and customization. Not to mention there is a different sense of "elite" in mastering something powerful that comes with downsides or weaknesses. THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE ON NEW PLAYERS The potential positive impact on the new player experience is a complicated one to discuss, because NPE is complicated in general. Research suggests players need to feel they are 90% of the way to "success" ("success" being a moving target as the player progresses) in order to be motivated to play. In this sense the concept that "having an elite motivates the new players to try to reach that level" is fundamentally flawed. All new players see is a long slog of losing games, trying to earn enough SP and ISK just to be able to feel like they're really playing. Tiericide helps with the NPE psychologically because the gap between tiers can be intimidating. If I'm in a standard medium suit and get killed by a proto assault, I have four tiers and seven skill levels between me and the person that killed me in the suit alone. But if I'm just killed by an "assault" suit, all I see is the role. The psychological impact could be significant even if the practical impact is minimal. Remember that a lot of the NPE is about how players feel and not necessarily the reality behind it. That works in both directions. SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENT FOR TIERICIDE IN THREE SENTENCES (Because apparently this is a thing now.) Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player. Thoughts? The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1370	Posted - 2014.04.29 08:54:00 - [89] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player. tiercide does not mean that you dont get advantages over new players. the difference is that you are not just getting twice the HP like you do now.
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 402	Posted - 2014.04.29 14:32:00 - [90] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player. tiercide does not mean that you dont get advantages over new players. the difference is that you are not just getting twice the HP like you do now. You are correct, obviously. So my three-sentence summary wasn't very well worded. There would still be upgrading, but the curve would be flattened and there would be more focus on side-grading and weighing pros against cons when designing fits. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing



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