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Heavies are a complex issue, don't balance recklessly

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10478	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:05:00 - [1] - Quote There is a perception that heavies are OP, and to me it feels true that they are too strong. Some have called for nerfs against heavy/sentines suitd, but I believe the issue is a complex one, and that heavies may quickly end up underpowered if they have their HP nerfed in addition to to fixing the multitude of other balance issues that need to be taken care of. Before any discusussion of HP nerfs, sevral issues have to be handled. The Issues: The assaults are underpowered. Right now scouts can tank nearly as much HP as assaults while being faster, having a 2nd equipment, having a bonus to cloaks, being great a detection and scan evasion; assaults pretty much suck by comparison. Medium frame slots are very messed up in my opinion, think this stuff needs to be fixed anyway, so might as well use the slot fixes it as a means to buff assaults and other mediums. Others have suggested things like regeneration to give assaults a niche, and also increasing base HP of mediums. Anyway, one of the reason heavies seem to be so unstoppable is that the main combat forces (assaults) are so bad right now, if assaults were buffed, heavies might seem less OP by comparison; I think assaults will get buffed anyway, so its safer to just wait for the assault buff rather than just nerf heavies now, nerfing heavies followed by an assault buff could leave heavies comparatively underpowered. Too much change at once is dangerous. The slow-down-when-hit effect on weapons. There is an effect that reduces your speed when you are hit by a weapon. No one wanted it, and no one likes it. It nullifies the mobility advantage of many suits, and it creates balance issues with many weapons; basically each round hitting slows down the target a bit, and high rate-of-fire weapons fire more rounds are fire more rounds at a given time interval, which makes the slow-down effect even higher. This gives the CR, aCR, HMG, and other high ROF weapons an extra (and unnecessary) advantage. This effect is the absoute worst with the HMG because of its extremely high rate of fire, this effect needs to be removed. Projectile damage profile (-5% to shields/+10% to armor). Every other damage profile has the damage bonus to one kind of HP (shields or armor), and the damage deficit against the other type of HP add up to 0; for example, laser damage profile is +20% to shields, and -20% to armor, adds up to 0. The projectile damage bonus has a net 5% gain, this creates a slight balance issue for the HMG (and combat rifle).The damage profile for projectiles need to be changed to something with a net 0 gain like everything else. The rifles and other weapons got nerfed in 1.8, but HMG was not nerfed. I think HMG's were at a good place in 1.7, but nerfing so many weapons while leaving the HMG alone gave the HMG an unnecessary comparative buff. The HMG might need a small 5-10% nerf after the removal of the slow-down effect, and the change to the projectile damage profile if heavies still appear to be overpowered after. Heavies i vehicles. One of the balancing factors that heavies have is their low speed, but getting an LAV or any other vehicle allows a heavy to completely overcome the lack of speed. A popular tactic employed by heavies is the use of LAVs to close the distance between enemies, instantly jumping out and killing enemies, and instantly jumping back in the LAV to escape whenever they start taking sigificant damage. This wasn't much of an issue for me personally before 1.8 because my packed AV grenades were enough to destroy a militia LAV and its occupants, but now they can't because maximum carried grenades for all grenade types have been reduced. There needs to be enter/exit animations to give those around time to damage or escape the entering/exiting heavy, or at least something like a hack sequence to enter or exit. This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. These things need to be out of the way first before nerfing the HP of heavies becomes an option. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12607	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:06:00 - [2] - Quote ^ This is a man who realises that balancing problems in Dust are not solvable with just 10% increases or reductions. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. EUrobro
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 2532	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:11:00 - [3] - Quote this is the kinda thread i don't even need to read i already know it's good If you run cloak and shotgun, you're a scrub Don't brick tank that scout, come on, get good. Proud member of RND
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2050	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:14:00 - [4] - Quote Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. Nerdier than thou
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7115	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:27:00 - [5] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. I actually though KAGEHOSHI was on the CPM when I first arrived on the forums. HAV > Infantry > AV < HAV [s]Text[/s] <------ That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2491	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:33:00 - [6] - Quote This all looks far too complicated. A 20% HP nerf takes like 10s of coding. I think we know which option CCP will choose.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 3775	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:34:00 - [7] - Quote Buff Assaults and remove webbing effect, before nerfing Heavies? This Heavy agrees. +1 I GÖú Kittens.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12612	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:34:00 - [8] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: This all looks far too complicated. A 20% HP nerf takes like 10s of coding. I think we know which option CCP will choose. That kind of quick 20% nerf is why we have problems like this. It's unfortunate. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. EUrobro
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8874	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:45:00 - [9] - Quote This cat approves Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1414	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:03:00 - [10] - Quote What!? Incremental, sensical change, followed by the gathering of data to see its effect!? Are you mad!? CCP is allergic to such, they prefer to monkey with a whole bunch of **** at once and in wildly different directions. Honestly I've given up on balance and I just want new maps, game modes, player market and in general some of the stuff they hyped. But I agree with the OP Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10492	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:39:00 - [11] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: What!? Incremental, sensical change, followed by the gathering of data to see its effect!? Are you mad!? CCP is allergic to such, they prefer to monkey with a whole bunch of ** at once and in wildly different directions. Honestly I've given up on balance and I just want new maps, game modes, player market and in general some of the stuff they hyped. But I agree with the OP Your comment made me smiile Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt** Gû¦Gû+
Medical Crash CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY 300	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:40:00 - [12] - Quote Scouts are a complex issue, please nerf recklessly
The Terminator T-1000 Skynet Incorporated 418	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:51:00 - [13] - Quote CCP will most likely over do it as usual by nerfing the heavy and buffing the assault. I am tired of this roller coaster!!!
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4009	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:59:00 - [14] - Quote Not everything was included into the game upon its release. Which lead to nerfs for weapons that should not have happened because they couldn't be compared to nonexistent weapons that were on the pipeline to be released. Now it seems we are in a nerf/buff twilight zone, never finding the right middle ground to agree upon. I like that heavies are scary again. Heavies were a joke in 1.7. Also, each particular dropsuit has had its shine in the game, I guess it's time again for the heavies. The LAV and Heavy issue shouldn't even be a issue. We are using the means that were given to us to bring an end to the opposition. Also its interesting to just blame CCP for some of this that we're in when the community has undoubetedly helped influenced the makings of 1.8. I read countless times about heavies not being lethal. But when they become lethal, now folks are saying CCP can't buy a bucket. Sometimes I do not understand this short term memory the community has. The system itself is interesting. Cry about issue. Make countless threads. CCP finally responds with a nerf/buff inbound. Community cheers. Community plays. Cries about the issue of the nerf/buff. Community begins blaming CCP, calling them incompetent, asking why they didn't test before releasing. Community obviously forgot that it's what they wanted. It's like we're in some weird ass twilight zone. 1.8 was of the community's doing mostly. Does the community know what they want? Will the community run this game into the ground? From the looks of it, its highly possible Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
IceShifter Childhaspawn DUST University Ivy League 544	Posted - 2014.04.23 00:03:00 - [15] - Quote Want to break the chains of 5 and 10 percent changes, how about 3% or 2% If the changes are smaller my favorite suit wont go from "good in buildings or narrow passages" to "sucks everywhere" overnight -again. At least gives us a chance to try something new before the suit is completely nerfed to worthlessness. EP 1.8: Revenge of the Scouts.
Scheneighnay McBob Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4898	Posted - 2014.04.23 00:23:00 - [16] - Quote The problem isn't in the suits per se, as much as it is in the play styles of the players. The majority of the community favors the "tactic" of running out in the open firing randomly; this "tactic" favors high eHP, which heavies have. Before we can do anything, we must first accept that heavies simply fit the dumbass play style that the majority of the community likes to employ and therefore will be most popular no matter what. We need to fit assaults to a different player mindset. I'm from the weird side of the internet
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9642	Posted - 2014.04.23 01:35:00 - [17] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: ^ This is a man who realises that balancing problems in Dust are not solvable with just 10% increases or reductions. Who doesn't realise that by now? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 620	Posted - 2014.04.23 01:59:00 - [18] - Quote My thread got mentioned. \o/ Medium frame EHP is not medium
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 271	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:01:00 - [19] - Quote Killed it. +9001 Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Delanus Turgias Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 416	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:08:00 - [20] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. I would not trust IWS with delivering messages to CCP. He would probably only get half the idea across before switching the topic to why his idea for Dust 2.0 is totally the most well thought out and best thing ever and why we need racial parity for EVERYTHING, including shotguns and grenades too. /rant Closed Beta Vet since May, 2012 TEST Alliance Best Alliance Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust

VALCORE72 NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 156	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:11:00 - [21] - Quote problem we are haven is not that there op its that there waaaaaaay to easy to skill in too . scouts and heavys need there sp cap raised up to 5 to 8 mill sp to proto . assault and logies should be lot more common . and take out the dam militia suits waste of space .
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 622	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:35:00 - [22] - Quote VALCORE72 wrote: problem we are haven is not that there op its that there waaaaaaay to easy to skill in too . scouts and heavys need there sp cap raised up to 5 to 8 mill sp to proto . assault and logies should be lot more common . and take out the dam militia suits waste of space . Balancing around SP is a bad idea because the issues with the object(s) in question don't get addressed and it inflates the power gap between low and high SP players. Supposedly when Dust514 gets a real economy, mlt gear will be the only gear available for purchase from the NPC market. And while that doesn't sound too important, it will give us poor mercs shelter when the market becomes unfavorable. Mlt gear also serves to help new players figure out what they want to invest SP into. Medium frame EHP is not medium

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 784	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:50:00 - [23] - Quote This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1146	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:51:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10507	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:55:00 - [25] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I don't know about the Caldari heavy, but the Minmatar heavy is great right now. Don't try to use it as a brawler like you would a Gallente or Amarr heavy, take advantage of the speed; with a militia one you can fit an advanced HMG, over 1,000 HP, and run faster than an Amarr assault, all for less than 20K. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Charlotte O'Dell Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors Dropsuit Samurai 2430	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:01:00 - [26] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Trenix Keltron Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 176	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:07:00 - [27] - Quote The CalSen is just awesome and eats MinSens for breakfast. OUKH corporation recruitment active. Initiate enlistment protocols. The future is now
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2058	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:16:00 - [28] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I don't know about the Caldari heavy, but the Minmatar heavy is great right now. Don't try to use it as a brawler like you would a Gallente or Amarr heavy, take advantage of the speed; with a militia one you can fit an advanced HMG, over 1,000 HP, and run faster than an Amarr assault, all for less than 20K. Cal heavy is great. Armor heavies can be whittled down. If you want to kill a Cal heavy, you'd better do it all at once, or it's going to regen all its health without the need for a logi. A few complex energizers + a few complex extenders = epic win. People are just too used to the Amarr style of heavy. Nerdier than thou
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 460	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:19:00 - [29] - Quote Given my recent massively inflamed ire against HMG heavy (spam), I have to applaud this post. The author has proposed a very balanced approach for dealing with the current heavy situation. Personally I fail to understand how anyone right now can claim that heavies are completely fine when 50-80% of the opposing teams are consistently using them even in pubs, not to mention PC. Always the last person to leave. Always the one cleaning up people's messes.
castba Penguin's March 395	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:23:00 - [30] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides.

jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1149	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:24:00 - [31] - Quote castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides. Tell me again how someone who is really good using something and goes positive means its good? I went 30/1 with an assault, is it fine? I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 274	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:24:00 - [32] - Quote LEHON Xeon wrote: Given my recent massively inflamed ire against HMG heavy (spam), I have to applaud this post. The author has proposed a very balanced approach for dealing with the current heavy situation. Personally I fail to understand how anyone right now can claim that heavies are completely fine when 50-80% of the opposing teams are consistently using them even in pubs, not to mention PC. I recently discovered the awesomeness of running a minlogilolhealer with a stacked heavy. Cannot wait to get more points in logi's now. And I'm borderline ok with heavy spam because it get's me DEM WARPOINTZ Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 460	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:27:00 - [33] - Quote castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides. HMG is not in a good place right now at all. It was the only major gun that didn't take an overall damage nerf along with rifles, while the role suits it gets used with gained resistance bonuses despite the damage nerf to other guns. Plus that "stunlock" effect is a bunch of crap. Always the last person to leave. Always the one cleaning up people's messes.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2058	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:28:00 - [34] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides. Tell me again how someone who is really good using something and goes positive means its good? I went 30/1 with an assault, is it fine? Regardless, Min/Cal heavies don't need a buff, you're just not using them right. They're not in the same niche as the armor heavies, which is good. Nerdier than thou
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1149	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:30:00 - [35] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides. Tell me again how someone who is really good using something and goes positive means its good? I went 30/1 with an assault, is it fine? Regardless, Min/Cal heavies don't need a buff, you're just not using them right. They're not in the same niche as the armor heavies, which is good. They need a buff More shields lesa armor, 50 or 100 shields, slightly more speed, sentinels at keast, you dont shield tank with a turtle I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
RuckingFetard Better Hide R Die 795	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:39:00 - [36] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: LEHON Xeon wrote: Given my recent massively inflamed ire against HMG heavy (spam), I have to applaud this post. The author has proposed a very balanced approach for dealing with the current heavy situation. Personally I fail to understand how anyone right now can claim that heavies are completely fine when 50-80% of the opposing teams are consistently using them even in pubs, not to mention PC. I recently discovered the awesomeness of running a minlogilolhealer with a stacked heavy. Cannot wait to get more points in logi's now. And I'm borderline ok with heavy spam because it get's me DEM WARPOINTZ Welcome to the club Running pure shield tanked Caldari 'cuz me a hippy
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4367	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:42:00 - [37] - Quote Medical Crash wrote: Scouts are a complex issue, please nerf recklessly Please don't. Take away the ability to fire before fully decloaking, and the only scout that will still seem OP will be the Gallente. My Minmatar scout has come so far now, I would hate to see it take another step back into oblivion. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1149	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:44:00 - [38] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Medical Crash wrote: Scouts are a complex issue, please nerf recklessly Please don't. Take away the ability to fire before fully decloaking, and the only scout that will still seem OP will be the Gallente. My Minmatar scout has come so far now, I would hate to see it take another step back into oblivion. Or fix shotguns Increasr range/fix hit detection/lower falloff/lower dps I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
Trenix Keltron Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 176	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:47:00 - [39] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Regardless, Min/Cal heavies don't need a buff, you're just not using them right. They're not in the same niche as the armor heavies, which is good. Yes you are right. I have two complex shield extenders and a energizer. Lower, I have a repper. As you said in your earlier post, I can survive pretty good without a logi. In fact, having a logi tail me is actually a bonus than a necessity. Amarr heavies are the only heavies that give me some trouble a bit. Minmatar heavies are easy to kill. Gallente are as well but not as much. The CalSen doesn't need any nerfs or buffs, its already at the sweet spot. OUKH corporation recruitment active. Initiate enlistment protocols. The future is now
IgniteableAura Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 952	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:50:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Where have you been! Its been cold and dark without a dev that doesn't play. Youtube

Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 617	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:52:00 - [41] - Quote Leave it to one of my choice's for CPM to look at the forums , see a problem and get right on it . Man if your not at least one of the CPM's , there really is a conspiracy issue going on . So many choices of quality people and players in the Dust community is really going to make this decision hard but anyway it goes , it will be a win ... win . +1 Horned Wolf .. Good work like usual . Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 617	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:59:00 - [42] - Quote Atiim wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. I actually though KAGEHOSHI was on the CPM when I first arrived on the forums. IKR . The same for me when I started , also he gave me some great advice when I was having trouble when I first started playing .. he , Cosgar , TechMechMeds and a few others are the reason that I still play . I thought the same though ... he and your big mouth as well . Your always posting but not so much lately , you comment more now . You might not like tankers all that much but your alright Atiim anyway . Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 617	Posted - 2014.04.23 04:04:00 - [43] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Not everything was included into the game upon its release. Which lead to nerfs for weapons that should not have happened because they couldn't be compared to nonexistent weapons that were on the pipeline to be released. Now it seems we are in a nerf/buff twilight zone, never finding the right middle ground to agree upon. I like that heavies are scary again. Heavies were a joke in 1.7. Also, each particular dropsuit has had its shine in the game, I guess it's time again for the heavies. The LAV and Heavy issue shouldn't even be a issue. We are using the means that were given to us to bring an end to the opposition. Also its interesting to just blame CCP for some of this that we're in when the community has undoubetedly helped influenced the makings of 1.8. I read countless times about heavies not being lethal. But when they become lethal, now folks are saying CCP can't buy a bucket. Sometimes I do not understand this short term memory the community has. The system itself is interesting. Cry about issue. Make countless threads. CCP finally responds with a nerf/buff inbound. Community cheers. Community plays. Cries about the issue of the nerf/buff. Community begins blaming CCP, calling them incompetent, asking why they didn't test before releasing. Community obviously forgot that it's what they wanted. It's like we're in some weird ass twilight zone. 1.8 was of the community's doing mostly. Does the community know what they want? Will the community run this game into the ground? From the looks of it, its highly possible Preach brother ... preach . True indeed . Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
Jenza's Pants The Hetairoi 172	Posted - 2014.04.23 04:04:00 - [44] - Quote heavies are fine.
IceShifter Childhaspawn DUST University Ivy League 548	Posted - 2014.04.23 04:09:00 - [45] - Quote Just wondering... Noticed a pattern to all the pro-nerf comments itt. Nerfers wouldn't happen to have specced heavily into scout suits recently would they? EP 1.8: Revenge of the Scouts Hiding in the redline means: I want to play, just not with *you* 17 characters lef
Rusty Shallows 1630	Posted - 2014.04.23 04:18:00 - [46] - Quote LEHON Xeon wrote: castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides. HMG is not in a good place right now at all. It was the only major gun that didn't take an overall damage nerf along with rifles, while the role suits it gets used with gained resistance bonuses despite the damage nerf to other guns. Plus that "stunlock" effect is a bunch of crap. Stun lock sounds pretty messed up. I'm not even noticing it on Logi but others seem certain they are dying from it. My combat habits is to use cover and avoid opens space. In Uprising 1.7 Rifles were still better than the HMG. I had too many BS moments to be convinced otherwise. So either CCP had to buff HMGs or nerf Rifles. If the DPS is too high I am open to for a damage nerf and a range boost. Although the assault variant would probably need a tighter cone. I do not count changing projectile damage percentages to a sum-zero a nerf. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 2236	Posted - 2014.04.23 05:14:00 - [47] - Quote In my not so humbe opinin: - Remove/reduce stun Lock effect, especially for the HMG. - Add a 1 sec time delay for entering vehicles. I don't think nerfing the Heavy HP nor screwing With the HMG damage and range is the right way to go. FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
COVERT SUBTERFUGE PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 936	Posted - 2014.04.23 05:16:00 - [48] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: LEHON Xeon wrote: Given my recent massively inflamed ire against HMG heavy (spam), I have to applaud this post. The author has proposed a very balanced approach for dealing with the current heavy situation. Personally I fail to understand how anyone right now can claim that heavies are completely fine when 50-80% of the opposing teams are consistently using them even in pubs, not to mention PC. I recently discovered the awesomeness of running a minlogilolhealer with a stacked heavy. Cannot wait to get more points in logi's now. And I'm borderline ok with heavy spam because it get's me DEM WARPOINTZ Now use the lai dai and heal two brick tanked heavies and bask in the glorious WP bukake as it rains all over your tally. Proud Minmatar scout - Republic Merc 7/10 Immune to bitter/jaded vet syndrome Alt of THE GREY CARDINAL - eWar Merc
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1340	Posted - 2014.04.23 06:12:00 - [49] - Quote they are suits with huge HP carrying a HMG, a weapon with huge DPS up to medium ranges. the basic HMG can down a proto brick tanked assault/logi in around a second. this weapon has the DPS of a shotgun but instead of 20 meter max range, you have 50 meter max range now at STD levels, this gets even more ridiculous. medium and light suits at STD levels have far less HP while the heavy still has huge HP at STD and still does huge DPS. a new player simply has almost no chance to tackle a full HP heavy, even if he gets from behind, the heavy has enough HP to turn around and kill you under a second. the HP/DPS gap between medium suits and heavies is just too big imho. this is not rocket science, nothing complex here.
Stiddlefaxq Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 54	Posted - 2014.04.23 06:16:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Heavies have too much HP and too much damage. Nerf HMG damage by 5% and ALL plates by 10%.

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2628	Posted - 2014.04.23 06:37:00 - [51] - Quote Have been saying this for donkey's my friend, glad to see someone has finally acknowledged us. However I would like to point out for your discussion a Gallante Sentinel is capable of achieving 1900 EHP does that not seem a little much? Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
Stiddlefaxq Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 54	Posted - 2014.04.23 06:59:00 - [52] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There is a perception that heavies are OP, and to me it feels true that they are too strong. Some have called for nerfs against heavy/sentines suits, but I believe the issue is a complex one, and that heavies may quickly end up underpowered if they have their HP nerfed in addition to to fixing the multitude of other balance issues that need to be taken care of. Before any discussion of HP nerfs, several issues have to be handled. The Issues: The assaults are underpowered. Right now scouts can tank nearly as much HP as assaults while being faster, having a 2nd equipment, having a bonus to cloaks, being great a detection and scan evasion; assaults pretty much suck by comparison. Medium frame slots are very messed up in my opinion, think this stuff needs to be fixed anyway, so might as well use the slot fixes it as a means to buff assaults and other mediums. Others have suggested things like regeneration to give assaults a niche, and also increasing base HP of mediums. Anyway, one of the reason heavies seem to be so unstoppable is that the main combat forces (assaults) are so bad right now, if assaults were buffed, heavies might seem less OP by comparison; I think assaults will get buffed anyway, so its safer to just wait for the assault buff rather than just nerf heavies now, nerfing heavies followed by an assault buff could leave heavies comparatively underpowered. Too much change at once is dangerous. The slow-down-when-hit effect on weapons. There is an effect that reduces your speed when you are hit by a weapon. No one wanted it, and no one likes it. It nullifies the mobility advantage of many suits, and it creates balance issues with many weapons; basically each round hitting slows down the target a bit, and high rate-of-fire weapons fire more rounds are fire more rounds at a given time interval, which makes the slow-down effect even higher. This gives the CR, aCR, HMG, and other high ROF weapons an extra (and unnecessary) advantage. This effect is the absolute worst with the HMG because of its extremely high rate of fire, this effect needs to be removed. Projectile damage profile (-5% to shields/+10% to armor). Every other damage profile has the damage bonus to one kind of HP (shields or armor), and the damage deficit against the other type of HP add up to 0; for example, laser damage profile is +20% to shields, and -20% to armor, adds up to 0. The projectile damage bonus has a net 5% gain, this creates a slight balance issue for the HMG (and combat rifle).The damage profile for projectiles need to be changed to something with a net 0 gain like everything else. The rifles and other weapons got nerfed in 1.8, but HMG was not nerfed. I think HMG's were at a good place in 1.7, but nerfing so many weapons while leaving the HMG alone gave the HMG an unnecessary comparative buff. The HMG might need a small 5-10% nerf after the removal of the slow-down effect, and the change to the projectile damage profile if heavies still appear to be overpowered after. Heavies in vehicles. One of the balancing factors that heavies have is their low speed, but getting an LAV or any other vehicle allows a heavy to completely overcome the lack of speed. A popular tactic employed by heavies is the use of LAVs to close the distance between enemies, instantly jumping out and killing enemies, and instantly jumping back in the LAV to escape whenever they start taking significant damage. This wasn't much of an issue for me personally before 1.8 because my packed AV grenades were enough to destroy a militia LAV and its occupants, but now they can't because maximum carried grenades for all grenade types have been reduced. There needs to be enter/exit animations to give those around time to damage or escape the entering/exiting heavy, or at least something like a hack sequence to enter or exit. This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. These things need to be out of the way first before nerfing the HP of heavies becomes an option. Its pretty obvious that plates give too much benefit for their costs. A slight(5-10%) reduction in heavy base HP, in addition to a 10-15% plate nerf should put heavies a lot closer to where they should be.
Roy Xkillerz Red Star. EoN. 29	Posted - 2014.04.23 07:15:00 - [53] - Quote I like the feedback compleetly. I play assault minmatar and a heavy suit amarr and yes assaults can surely use a buff.
Rygharr Sturmeister DUST University Ivy League 24	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:24:00 - [54] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: they are suits with huge HP carrying a HMG, a weapon with huge DPS up to medium ranges. the basic HMG can down a proto brick tanked assault/logi in around a second. this weapon has the DPS of a shotgun but instead of 20 meter max range, you have 50 meter max range At 50 meters all you're doing is tickling the person you're shooting. Anything past 30 and the DPS of the HMG drops tremendously. 1 second against a bricked-out medium? Sure, if you're unloading on them at melee distances and they're standing still for you. Unless you're catch one from behind hacking or sniping, there's no way you'll take one out in a second. Jack McReady wrote: . . . a new player simply has almost no chance to tackle a full HP heavy, even if he gets from behind, the heavy has enough HP to turn around and kill you under a second. the HP/DPS gap between medium suits and heavies is just too big imho. this is not rocket science, nothing complex here. You mention two separate issues here. First, a new player has almost no chance to tackle ANYTHING. Scouts, Logi's, even Assaults will melt a starter fit, often even with the newbie getting the jump on them. Second, the HP/DPS gap between light suits and mediums is more of an issue compared to the gap between heavies and mediums. If you want to fix both issues, buff medium HP (and maybe DPS) as opposed to nerfing heavy HP. A heavy's durability and high damage are balanced out by it's speed, lack of equipment slot, and the propensity to light up on everyone's TACNET while being blind himself. You can see him, he cannot see you. His HMG does less DPS than a Magsec past 30 meters. You have the tools and the parameters to engage accordingly.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3612	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:27:00 - [55] - Quote Heavies are fine.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 927	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:49:00 - [56] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There is a perception that heavies are OP, and to me it feels true that they are too strong. Some have called for nerfs against heavy/sentines suits, but I believe the issue is a complex one, and that heavies may quickly end up underpowered if they have their HP nerfed in addition to to fixing the multitude of other balance issues that need to be taken care of. Before any discussion of HP nerfs, several issues have to be handled. The Issues: The assaults are underpowered. Right now scouts can tank nearly as much HP as assaults while being faster, having a 2nd equipment, having a bonus to cloaks, being great a detection and scan evasion; assaults pretty much suck by comparison. Medium frame slots are very messed up in my opinion, think this stuff needs to be fixed anyway, so might as well use the slot fixes it as a means to buff assaults and other mediums. Others have suggested things like regeneration to give assaults a niche, and also increasing base HP of mediums. Anyway, one of the reason heavies seem to be so unstoppable is that the main combat forces (assaults) are so bad right now, if assaults were buffed, heavies might seem less OP by comparison; I think assaults will get buffed anyway, so its safer to just wait for the assault buff rather than just nerf heavies now, nerfing heavies followed by an assault buff could leave heavies comparatively underpowered. Too much change at once is dangerous. The slow-down-when-hit effect on weapons. There is an effect that reduces your speed when you are hit by a weapon. No one wanted it, and no one likes it. It nullifies the mobility advantage of many suits, and it creates balance issues with many weapons; basically each round hitting slows down the target a bit, and high rate-of-fire weapons fire more rounds are fire more rounds at a given time interval, which makes the slow-down effect even higher. This gives the CR, aCR, HMG, and other high ROF weapons an extra (and unnecessary) advantage. This effect is the absolute worst with the HMG because of its extremely high rate of fire, this effect needs to be removed. Projectile damage profile (-5% to shields/+10% to armor). Every other damage profile has the damage bonus to one kind of HP (shields or armor), and the damage deficit against the other type of HP add up to 0; for example, laser damage profile is +20% to shields, and -20% to armor, adds up to 0. The projectile damage bonus has a net 5% gain, this creates a slight balance issue for the HMG (and combat rifle).The damage profile for projectiles need to be changed to something with a net 0 gain like everything else. The rifles and other weapons got nerfed in 1.8, but HMG was not nerfed. I think HMG's were at a good place in 1.7, but nerfing so many weapons while leaving the HMG alone gave the HMG an unnecessary comparative buff. The HMG might need a small 5-10% nerf after the removal of the slow-down effect, and the change to the projectile damage profile if heavies still appear to be overpowered after. Heavies in vehicles. One of the balancing factors that heavies have is their low speed, but getting an LAV or any other vehicle allows a heavy to completely overcome the lack of speed. A popular tactic employed by heavies is the use of LAVs to close the distance between enemies, instantly jumping out and killing enemies, and instantly jumping back in the LAV to escape whenever they start taking significant damage. This wasn't much of an issue for me personally before 1.8 because my packed AV grenades were enough to destroy a militia LAV and its occupants, but now they can't because maximum carried grenades for all grenade types have been reduced. There needs to be enter/exit animations to give those around time to damage or escape the entering/exiting heavy, or at least something like a hack sequence to enter or exit. This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. These things need to be out of the way first before nerfing the HP of heavies becomes an option. I have to agree with all but the argument about the brick tanked scout being faster than its medium counterpart. From my experience that's not true. If we took the gallente scout for example he can get up to 989 eHP max. But a gallente assault with 1059 HP WILL be faster. So the gallente scout would have less eHP AND less speed compared to its assault counterpart. He will still be more stealthy though... The numbers for above example: Gal scout 2 cplx extenders + 4cplx plates = 989 eHP Movement speed: 4.44 Strafe Speed: 4.0 Sprintspeed: 6.53 Here I did not include the potential double penalty of plates for strafe and sprint speed.. Gal Assault 3 cplx extenders + 2 enh plates + 2 basic plates = 1059 eHP Movement speed: 4.52 Strafe Speed: 4.07 Sprintspeed: 6.64
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 137	Posted - 2014.04.23 09:25:00 - [57] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There is a perception that heavies are OP, and to me it feels true that they are too strong. Some have called for nerfs against heavy/sentines suits, but I believe the issue is a complex one, and that heavies may quickly end up underpowered if they have their HP nerfed in addition to to fixing the multitude of other balance issues that need to be taken care of. Before any discussion of HP nerfs, several issues have to be handled. Great post as always. Medium frames, I know you & others have previously suggested things for them ( slot change, some stat changes?? ) I like the regeneration idea a lot as I think if you give more base HP then people will just brick tank more & then we are back where we started with ttk. Currently I am thinking of brick tanking my logi just so I can survive longer & this makes me sad. Have you any consideration to whether any medium frame buff will pass over to logi frames in some way or is it just mainly for assault ?? The slow down effect is terrible for me as a mini logi as I don't build for max HP. I try & build for mobility so any kind of snare effect means my chances of dodging out are reduced. I would like to see it go or serverly reduced. If I am trying to use my mobility as an advantage I would like to be able to use it when I need it not just to run half way over the map to get there ASAP. Question, is it part of the hit detection fix or an un intended side effect ?? Projectile damage profile, the net increase needs to be changed BUT I would like it to retain its identity as slighty different to the others. This is probably purely selfish of me because the CR suits me as a logi with no sidearm. I can do 'balanced' damage to shield & armour without having 2 specific damage type weapons. This the damage output, the good range & the fitting costs make the CR a good 'all round' killers choice. Tweaking the damage profile & maybe fitting costs may help people to find an alternative. I think however that because it is good all round that it will still remain a favourite, especially at proto level. HMG damage reduction, leave this til last as the HMG is a bullet spewing monster & if you step in front of one it should hurt. Wait & see would be good for this & the Heavy HP reduction. Murder Taxi's, yes they're back. The fact that swarms take 2/3 shots to kill an LAV & that people don't have enough grenades to take LAVs out has meant that it is again become a more viable tactic. That & the increase of people running heavy. Over the next week or two I expect to see more people doing this. The current warp in/warp out definetly sucks & while an animation would add some risk there are some other ideas out there. Anyway great ideas & good discussion. GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥ GÇò Frank Zappa
Prius Vecht Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 335	Posted - 2014.04.23 09:35:00 - [58] - Quote MIN heavy needs a speed buff if its going to be so squishy compared to other heavies. its slot layout should be 3-3 as well. Is it the one heavy thats supposed to fight medium/light frames only? Its supposed to trade survivability for speed/a balanced fit and right now it doesn't.
Asha Starwind 818	Posted - 2014.04.23 09:55:00 - [59] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Have been saying this for donkey's my friend, glad to see someone has finally acknowledged us. However I would like to point out for your discussion a Gallante Sentinel is capable of achieving 1900 EHP does that not seem a little much? Also as a suggestion when a heavy reach near critical mass for stacking (1700 EHP) let me use a swarm launcher on him. I ran into one of those today he ate a full remote explosive(1500HP) and still was hungry(had ~300hp left). Mad Bomber - 50% less profile Return dumbfire to Swarms
VALCORE72 NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 158	Posted - 2014.04.23 10:35:00 - [60] - Quote why is balancing sp of heavys a bad thing ? in eve it dont take the same to get in to a battle ship as it does a frig or a destroyer . heavys need there sp cp raised so you dont see so many . how many ppl will spend 4 months gettn proto ? only thoses that want to be true heavys . that sloth effect when your shot is bs ,its almost like there trying to do what bf4 has with suppressive fire but its all wrong .

Patrick57 7148	Posted - 2014.04.23 10:47:00 - [61] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. Then why do we still have a redline? Hell is empty and all the devils are here. -William Shakespeare
Symbioticforks Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 145	Posted - 2014.04.23 10:51:00 - [62] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Give prototype sniper rifles increased head shot damage. This will help balance heavies more. ^^CCP IGNORES ALL SNIPER RELATED ISSUES^^
boba's fetta Dead Man's Game 544	Posted - 2014.04.23 10:56:00 - [63] - Quote another fat suit in agreement. webbing effect has to go for sure. why should the guys with the sense to run the hell away not be allowed to do so. skills are not being applied till 30 secs after spawn fixes before nerfs thank you.
boba's fetta Dead Man's Game 544	Posted - 2014.04.23 11:00:00 - [64] - Quote KingBabar wrote: In my not so humbe opinin: - Remove/reduce stun Lock effect, especially for the HMG. - Add a 1 sec time delay for entering vehicles. I don't think nerfing the Heavy HP nor screwing With the HMG damage and range is the right way to go. id also add a delay to getting out. good idea +1 skills are not being applied till 30 secs after spawn fixes before nerfs thank you.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3613	Posted - 2014.04.23 11:22:00 - [65] - Quote I've never been a fan of the fast strafe speeds in this game. Tracking shooters are nice and all, but there comes a point when the speed outdoes the ability to track consistently via controller. The strongest proponents of faster strafe game actually can't aim much better than the average joe, they simply MOVE well and abuse the fastest suits in the game when aim assist is at its weakest. They then delude themselves into believing they have superior aim and everyone else needs to "git gud" when the reality is they are simply shooting at slower targets that are naturally easier to hit, while applying smart strafe tactics to make them god tier compared to everyone else. As far as I'm concerned, the webbing effect is welcomed. If you want to fix KB/M and allow us to use it properly again that would be great, uncap all the speeds on everything for all I care. Or if you want to turn DOWN the strafe movement, you should remove the web. But unless that happens, leave it in. This game has ridiculous strafe speeds compared to most other games when you consider how much HP the average person has. Yet for some reason the community acts like "ZOMG STRAFE SPEED SO SLOOOOOOOOOW". Buncha crazy bastards. Unpopular opinion dispersed, you may all continue deluding yourselves now.
castba Penguin's March 396	Posted - 2014.04.23 11:30:00 - [66] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides. Tell me again how someone who is really good using something and goes positive means its good? I went 30/1 with an assault, is it fine? Yes, he is very good but this was the first time I had seen him seemingly solo and without proto (all std level gear). He moved well, used cover effectively and was patient enough to let his shields recover before re-engaging. Basically using the suit to its strengths. I have no comment on your claim as I have never faced you in game, or if I have it was forgettable.
NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 374	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:03:00 - [67] - Quote Heavies are fine.. some are a little underpowered. Assaults suits do need a look over, Hit stun should knock down a target instead of the slow down. Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!
IceShifter Childhaspawn DUST University Ivy League 555	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:04:00 - [68] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. Then why do we still have a redline? -To prevent MCC camping -To allow vehicles to deploy safely -To allow the forming of squads -To allow access to the Depot in case you spawned in the wrong suit The redline isnt the problem or the solution, But to placate the protostomping f*tards, implement a surrender button. Take away the redline and watch as everyone leaves the match. So you can ultimately play with yourself. EP 1.8: Revenge of the Scouts Hiding in the redline means: I want to play, just not with you** +25 = I'm helping
Cyzad4 Blackfish Corp. 292	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:11:00 - [69] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. Then why do we still have a redline? Gives ADS pilots somewhere to run when they take fire Welcome to you're "DOOM"
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1540	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:34:00 - [70] - Quote I am not a Heavy, free Heavy frames don't count... But heavies are a real challenge now and i love fighting them Great post OP... No need to nerf heavies or anything but few issues require some tweaking - Slowing down when hit by HMG - Heavies in LAV - Heavies Using light weapons... With 12-1500 EHP and all the damage resistance, the heavies with Light Weapons are my problems - Assault suits could use some resistance bonuses...

Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 398	Posted - 2014.04.23 15:41:00 - [71] - Quote Great post except for one thing. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Projectile damage profile (-5% to shields/+10% to armor). Every other damage profile has the damage bonus to one kind of HP (shields or armor), and the damage deficit against the other type of HP add up to 0; for example, laser damage profile is +20% to shields, and -20% to armor, adds up to 0. The projectile damage bonus has a net 5% gain, this creates a slight balance issue for the HMG (and combat rifle). The damage profile for projectiles need to be changed to something with a net 0 gain like everything else. As previously discussed, this is a cosmetic issue and not a real problem. If I were CCP, I would still even it out just to avoid the headache of having people complain about it, but the perceived imbalance doesn't have an inherent practical impact. It is a consideration however that the damage profile has the smallest difference between shields and armor (15.8% versus 22-50% for other damage types), which means weapons of this type should be treated as "jack of all trades" and have lower overall damage output when compared to other classes of weapons (i.e., does more damage to shields than rails and more damage to armor than lasers but less damage overall). (Meaning that hypothetically if you go up against a suit with an equal amount of shields and armor, the projectile weapons should take the longest of all the weapons in their class to kill the suit. But compared to weapons that are weak against shields they will kill heavily-shielded suits quicker, and compared to weapons that are weak against armor they will kill heavily-armored suits quicker. That's the nature of jack-of-all-trades.) Again, I haven't done the numbers, but that relative weakness doesn't appear to be the case with the Combat Rifle currently and it may justify a slight decrease to HMG damage. But I recommend making any changes to the webbing effect before decreasing damage. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1428	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:00:00 - [72] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I've never been a fan of the fast strafe speeds in this game. Tracking shooters are nice and all, but there comes a point when the speed outdoes the ability to track consistently via controller. The strongest proponents of faster strafe game actually can't aim much better than the average joe, they simply MOVE well and abuse the fastest suits in the game when aim assist is at its weakest. So true, they are so twitchy. Don't get me wrong, its a skill, one I can't do. But it is precisely what separates most of the "elite" from the scrubs like me. I can't dance back and forth at super speeds to avoid bullets or pogo stick around landing headshots. I guess one has to tip their cap to the skill of those of you who do it, but it is pretty funny to call this a tactical squad based shooter when ones dance moves matter more than tactics and teamwork. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 386	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:10:00 - [73] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There is a perception that heavies are OP, and to me it feels true that they are too strong. Some have called for nerfs against heavy/sentines suits, but I believe the issue is a complex one, and that heavies may quickly end up underpowered if they have their HP nerfed in addition to to fixing the multitude of other balance issues that need to be taken care of. Before any discussion of HP nerfs, several issues have to be handled. The Issues: The assaults are underpowered. Right now scouts can tank nearly as much HP as assaults while being faster, having a 2nd equipment, having a bonus to cloaks, being great a detection and scan evasion; assaults pretty much suck by comparison. Medium frame slots are very messed up in my opinion, think this stuff needs to be fixed anyway, so might as well use the slot fixes it as a means to buff assaults and other mediums. Others have suggested things like regeneration to give assaults a niche, and also increasing base HP of mediums. Anyway, one of the reason heavies seem to be so unstoppable is that the main combat forces (assaults) are so bad right now, if assaults were buffed, heavies might seem less OP by comparison; I think assaults will get buffed anyway, so its safer to just wait for the assault buff rather than just nerf heavies now, nerfing heavies followed by an assault buff could leave heavies comparatively underpowered. Too much change at once is dangerous. The slow-down-when-hit effect on weapons. There is an effect that reduces your speed when you are hit by a weapon. No one wanted it, and no one likes it. It nullifies the mobility advantage of many suits, and it creates balance issues with many weapons; basically each round hitting slows down the target a bit, and high rate-of-fire weapons fire more rounds are fire more rounds at a given time interval, which makes the slow-down effect even higher. This gives the CR, aCR, HMG, and other high ROF weapons an extra (and unnecessary) advantage. This effect is the absolute worst with the HMG because of its extremely high rate of fire, this effect needs to be removed. Projectile damage profile (-5% to shields/+10% to armor). Every other damage profile has the damage bonus to one kind of HP (shields or armor), and the damage deficit against the other type of HP add up to 0; for example, laser damage profile is +20% to shields, and -20% to armor, adds up to 0. The projectile damage bonus has a net 5% gain, this creates a slight balance issue for the HMG (and combat rifle).The damage profile for projectiles need to be changed to something with a net 0 gain like everything else. The rifles and other weapons got nerfed in 1.8, but HMG was not nerfed. I think HMG's were at a good place in 1.7, but nerfing so many weapons while leaving the HMG alone gave the HMG an unnecessary comparative buff. The HMG might need a small 5-10% nerf after the removal of the slow-down effect, and the change to the projectile damage profile if heavies still appear to be overpowered after. Heavies in vehicles. One of the balancing factors that heavies have is their low speed, but getting an LAV or any other vehicle allows a heavy to completely overcome the lack of speed. A popular tactic employed by heavies is the use of LAVs to close the distance between enemies, instantly jumping out and killing enemies, and instantly jumping back in the LAV to escape whenever they start taking significant damage. This wasn't much of an issue for me personally before 1.8 because my packed AV grenades were enough to destroy a militia LAV and its occupants, but now they can't because maximum carried grenades for all grenade types have been reduced. There needs to be enter/exit animations to give those around time to damage or escape the entering/exiting heavy, or at least something like a hack sequence to enter or exit. This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. These things need to be out of the way first before nerfing the HP of heavies becomes an option. Dude you've hit it right on the dot. IMO the main problem is the HMG, I actually think the HP is just fine! The problem arises when it currently takes 3-5 SG shots to kill a heavy, but their HMG allows them to just side-swipe and just drop everyone in it's path. I've literally had moments where I would just stand for literally a second and get dropped by an HMG. Furthermore the sprinting bug which is independent of the slug action of the HMG bullets worsens the situation because if you're "sprinting" 3m/s on a scout suit, you're going to die 90% of the time. If these issues and the balancing of assaults were fixed, this game would be utterly amazing. The truth is we're actually very close to having balance between all classes. "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. You do it with 63.00 Stamina Regen.
Heimdallr69 Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 2168	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:12:00 - [74] - Quote Do you think what you linked would help assaults? I mean it takes care of the logi problem but I don't see it helping any other way? Looks good though, good job. Actually I like cat mercs idea.. He's in the right direction. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 386	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:13:00 - [75] - Quote IceShifter Childhaspawn wrote: Want to break the chains of 5 and 10 percent changes, how about 3% or 2% If the changes are smaller my favorite suit wont go from "good in buildings or narrow passages" to "sucks everywhere" overnight -again. At least gives us a chance to try something new before the suit is completely nerfed to worthlessness. The problem isn't the suit, it's the HMG and it's effects in addition to the sprinting bug. "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. You do it with 63.00 Stamina Regen.
IceShifter Childhaspawn DUST University Ivy League 557	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:14:00 - [76] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I've never been a fan of the fast strafe speeds in this game. Tracking shooters are nice and all, but there comes a point when the speed outdoes the ability to track consistently via controller. The strongest proponents of faster strafe game actually can't aim much better than the average joe, they simply MOVE well and abuse the fastest suits in the game when aim assist is at its weakest. So true, they are so twitchy. Don't get me wrong, its a skill, one I can't do. But it is precisely what separates most of the "elite" from the scrubs like me. I can't dance back and forth at super speeds to avoid bullets or pogo stick around landing headshots. I guess one has to tip their cap to the skill of those of you who do it, but it is pretty funny to call this a tactical squad based shooter when ones dance moves matter more than tactics and teamwork. Everyone should read and take time to appreciate this post EP 1.8: Revenge of the Scouts Hiding in the redline means: I want to play, just not with *you* +25 = I'm helping
IceShifter Childhaspawn DUST University Ivy League 557	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:18:00 - [77] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: IceShifter Childhaspawn wrote: Want to break the chains of 5 and 10 percent changes, how about 3% or 2% If the changes are smaller my favorite suit wont go from "good in buildings or narrow passages" to "sucks everywhere" overnight -again. At least gives us a chance to try something new before the suit is completely nerfed to worthlessness. The problem isn't the suit, it's the HMG and it's effects in addition to the sprinting bug. This suits primary purpose is to keep its user alive while wielding a Hmg. Forges too. I dont run heavy to have high hp. I run heavy to change raspberry minds about charging down my hallway. EP 1.8: Revenge of the Scouts Hiding in the redline means: I want to play, just not with *you* +25 = I'm helping
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2430	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:45:00 - [78] - Quote I love you, OP.
Nihilus Warwick Pradox One Proficiency V. 84	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:51:00 - [79] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There is a perception that heavies are OP, and to me it feels true that they are too strong. Some have called for nerfs against heavy/sentines suits, but I believe the issue is a complex one, and that heavies may quickly end up underpowered if they have their HP nerfed in addition to to fixing the multitude of other balance issues that need to be taken care of. Before any discussion of HP nerfs, several issues have to be handled. The Issues: The assaults are underpowered. Right now scouts can tank nearly as much HP as assaults while being faster, having a 2nd equipment, having a bonus to cloaks, being great a detection and scan evasion; assaults pretty much suck by comparison. Medium frame slots are very messed up in my opinion, think this stuff needs to be fixed anyway, so might as well use the slot fixes it as a means to buff assaults and other mediums. Others have suggested things like regeneration to give assaults a niche, and also increasing base HP of mediums. Anyway, one of the reason heavies seem to be so unstoppable is that the main combat forces (assaults) are so bad right now, if assaults were buffed, heavies might seem less OP by comparison; I think assaults will get buffed anyway, so its safer to just wait for the assault buff rather than just nerf heavies now, nerfing heavies followed by an assault buff could leave heavies comparatively underpowered. Too much change at once is dangerous. The slow-down-when-hit effect on weapons. There is an effect that reduces your speed when you are hit by a weapon. No one wanted it, and no one likes it. It nullifies the mobility advantage of many suits, and it creates balance issues with many weapons; basically each round hitting slows down the target a bit, and high rate-of-fire weapons fire more rounds are fire more rounds at a given time interval, which makes the slow-down effect even higher. This gives the CR, aCR, HMG, and other high ROF weapons an extra (and unnecessary) advantage. This effect is the absolute worst with the HMG because of its extremely high rate of fire, this effect needs to be removed. Projectile damage profile (-5% to shields/+10% to armor). Every other damage profile has the damage bonus to one kind of HP (shields or armor), and the damage deficit against the other type of HP add up to 0; for example, laser damage profile is +20% to shields, and -20% to armor, adds up to 0. The projectile damage bonus has a net 5% gain, this creates a slight balance issue for the HMG (and combat rifle).The damage profile for projectiles need to be changed to something with a net 0 gain like everything else. The rifles and other weapons got nerfed in 1.8, but HMG was not nerfed. I think HMG's were at a good place in 1.7, but nerfing so many weapons while leaving the HMG alone gave the HMG an unnecessary comparative buff. The HMG might need a small 5-10% nerf after the removal of the slow-down effect, and the change to the projectile damage profile if heavies still appear to be overpowered after. Heavies in vehicles. One of the balancing factors that heavies have is their low speed, but getting an LAV or any other vehicle allows a heavy to completely overcome the lack of speed. A popular tactic employed by heavies is the use of LAVs to close the distance between enemies, instantly jumping out and killing enemies, and instantly jumping back in the LAV to escape whenever they start taking significant damage. This wasn't much of an issue for me personally before 1.8 because my packed AV grenades were enough to destroy a militia LAV and its occupants, but now they can't because maximum carried grenades for all grenade types have been reduced. There needs to be enter/exit animations to give those around time to damage or escape the entering/exiting heavy, or at least something like a hack sequence to enter or exit. This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. These things need to be out of the way first before nerfing the HP of heavies becomes an option. Always a pleasure reading your write ups. This is really well thought out.
MINA Longstrike 546	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:09:00 - [80] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. kagehoshi says some really, really **ing stupid stuff quite frequently. Yeah he hits it home sometimes, but he misses the pitch completely just as often. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.

Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 5044	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:16:00 - [81] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. kagehoshi says some really, really ****ing stupid stuff quite frequently. Yeah he hits it home sometimes, but he misses the pitch completely just as often. You're seriously going to attack one of the most reasonable people on this compost heap of a forum? Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12668	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:22:00 - [82] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. kagehoshi says some really, really ***ing stupid stuff quite frequently. Yeah he hits it home sometimes, but he misses the pitch completely just as often. As opposed to, say, completely missing the pitch every time like you do? KAGEHOSHI is a good poster. You are not. Go back under your bridge. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.* EUrobro
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 5044	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:25:00 - [83] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: This all looks far too complicated. A 20% HP nerf takes like 10s of coding. I think we know which option CCP will choose. Wow, you missed the point entirely. It's like you were trying to make the dumbest possible response to this thread. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 731	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:27:00 - [84] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: This all looks far too complicated. A 20% HP nerf takes like 10s of coding. I think we know which option CCP will choose. Wow, you missed the point entirely. It's like you were trying to make the dumbest possible response to this thread. It was sarcasm Mobius, but i also fear CCP will go the easy way... Cal.Heavy-Min.Heavy-Amarr.Heavy Believe in the FORGE, young padawans SoloDoloreSuCharlie
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2501	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:27:00 - [85] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: This all looks far too complicated. A 20% HP nerf takes like 10s of coding. I think we know which option CCP will choose. Wow, you missed the point entirely. It's like you were trying to make the dumbest possible response to this thread. I think you missed the point of my post entirely.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3615	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:47:00 - [86] - Quote Look, just stop talking about heavies. The less you talk about it, the less likely they will be ruined by CCP. The game is almost well balanced. They have more constructive things to be doing like fixing the assault.
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 5044	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:27:00 - [87] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Look, just stop talking about heavies. The less you talk about it, the less likely they will be ruined by CCP. The game is almost well balanced. They have more constructive things to be doing like fixing the assault. The state of heavies is part of what is making the Assault suits useless. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2105	Posted - 2014.04.23 19:17:00 - [88] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. kagehoshi says some really, really ****ing stupid stuff quite frequently. Yeah he hits it home sometimes, but he misses the pitch completely just as often. First: he hits home more often than anyone else on the forums, the CSM, or really CCP's dev team as a whole. That's good enough for me. Best is best, even if it's not perfect. Make your own posts and be smarter, and maybe I'll listen to you instead. Second: bumpity bump bump, keeping one of the few intelligent threads at the top of general. Nerdier than thou
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 212	Posted - 2014.04.23 19:51:00 - [89] - Quote Good points, I don't think heavies are even a threat to me against my shotgun or knives and every fit I have has either one or the other on it. As LONG AS HE is ALONE. Otherwise, like any group I am not going to engage. I think lights need massive speed penalties as they stack armor plates. I think scouts should all go back to 40 profile 45 precision, this would balance EWAR. And make it so mediums won't need so many modules to see a scout, with cloaks we all already get 25% dampening, having a 35 profile is too low (Notice how I am not saying to mess with the scout suits racial bonuses). I think min bonus is fine but cpu/pg should be upped and Amarr needs something more, like 1/5 slot layout so it isn't just a gimped Gal suit. I'd like to see mediums get a few better or stronger bonuses to entice people back into the mainstay suit. Heavies are alright the way they are, cloaks are alright the way they are. Shotgun are alright the way they are (Also, shotgun HAVE gotten a nerf, the RoF nerf was worse than other people losing the flat damage proficiency nerf.) Finally, fix slow on hit bug and equipment sprint bug please.
Sad Heavy Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 77	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:10:00 - [90] - Quote castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides. Everybody knows Jac himself is OP. I've seen him do better with the old Amarr Sentinel Scrubby Python Pilot, Corp Chat Troll, Elite Scrub, Caldari Loyalist

Sad Heavy Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 77	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:30:00 - [91] - Quote castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: castba wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides. Tell me again how someone who is really good using something and goes positive means its good? I went 30/1 with an assault, is it fine? Yes, he is very good but this was the first time I had seen him seemingly solo and without proto (all std level gear). He moved well, used cover effectively and was patient enough to let his shields recover before re-engaging. Basically using the suit to its strengths. I have no comment on your claim as I have never faced you in game, or if I have it was forgettable. He usually only uses STD or proto, knows what he is doing. Scrubby Python Pilot, Corp Chat Troll, Elite Scrub, Caldari Loyalist
Tek Hound Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 248	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:55:00 - [92] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There is a perception that heavies are OP, and to me it feels true that they are too strong. Some have called for nerfs against heavy/sentines suits, but I believe the issue is a complex one, and that heavies may quickly end up underpowered if they have their HP nerfed in addition to to fixing the multitude of other balance issues that need to be taken care of. Before any discussion of HP nerfs, several issues have to be handled. The Issues: The assaults are underpowered. Right now scouts can tank nearly as much HP as assaults while being faster, having a 2nd equipment, having a bonus to cloaks, being great a detection and scan evasion; assaults pretty much suck by comparison. Medium frame slots are very messed up in my opinion, think this stuff needs to be fixed anyway, so might as well use the slot fixes it as a means to buff assaults and other mediums. Others have suggested things like regeneration to give assaults a niche, and also increasing base HP of mediums. Anyway, one of the reason heavies seem to be so unstoppable is that the main combat forces (assaults) are so bad right now, if assaults were buffed, heavies might seem less OP by comparison; I think assaults will get buffed anyway, so its safer to just wait for the assault buff rather than just nerf heavies now, nerfing heavies followed by an assault buff could leave heavies comparatively underpowered. Too much change at once is dangerous. The slow-down-when-hit effect on weapons. There is an effect that reduces your speed when you are hit by a weapon. No one wanted it, and no one likes it. It nullifies the mobility advantage of many suits, and it creates balance issues with many weapons; basically each round hitting slows down the target a bit, and high rate-of-fire weapons fire more rounds are fire more rounds at a given time interval, which makes the slow-down effect even higher. This gives the CR, aCR, HMG, and other high ROF weapons an extra (and unnecessary) advantage. This effect is the absolute worst with the HMG because of its extremely high rate of fire, this effect needs to be removed. Projectile damage profile (-5% to shields/+10% to armor). Every other damage profile has the damage bonus to one kind of HP (shields or armor), and the damage deficit against the other type of HP add up to 0; for example, laser damage profile is +20% to shields, and -20% to armor, adds up to 0. The projectile damage bonus has a net 5% gain, this creates a slight balance issue for the HMG (and combat rifle).The damage profile for projectiles need to be changed to something with a net 0 gain like everything else. The rifles and other weapons got nerfed in 1.8, but HMG was not nerfed. I think HMG's were at a good place in 1.7, but nerfing so many weapons while leaving the HMG alone gave the HMG an unnecessary comparative buff. The HMG might need a small 5-10% nerf after the removal of the slow-down effect, and the change to the projectile damage profile if heavies still appear to be overpowered after. Heavies in vehicles. One of the balancing factors that heavies have is their low speed, but getting an LAV or any other vehicle allows a heavy to completely overcome the lack of speed. A popular tactic employed by heavies is the use of LAVs to close the distance between enemies, instantly jumping out and killing enemies, and instantly jumping back in the LAV to escape whenever they start taking significant damage. This wasn't much of an issue for me personally before 1.8 because my packed AV grenades were enough to destroy a militia LAV and its occupants, but now they can't because maximum carried grenades for all grenade types have been reduced. There needs to be enter/exit animations to give those around time to damage or escape the entering/exiting heavy, or at least something like a hack sequence to enter or exit. This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. These things need to be out of the way first before nerfing the HP of heavies becomes an option. Can't find anything to disagree with +1
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3616	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:56:00 - [93] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Look, just stop talking about heavies. The less you talk about it, the less likely they will be ruined by CCP. The game is almost well balanced. They have more constructive things to be doing like fixing the assault. The state of heavies is part of what is making the Assault suits useless. Why would I run an assault that basically just does a logi's job, but less than half assed? Why would I run one for mobile slaying when a scout does it better? Why would I run one for point defense when a sentinel does it better? Why would I run one for high-ground pressure/defense when a commando does it better? It's not heavies that make Assault's useless, it's the fact that an assault is good at absolutely goddamn nothing. Except amarr assaults, they are still fun to use with laser rifles in pubs. But that's all. Assaults need a unique toolset that makes them worth having. I personally recommend some form of vertical movement, grappling hooks or short-burst jetpacks that actually allow them to "Assault" an objective. Failing that, they need some sort of other gimmick. Every suit has a gimmick but the assault, and thats why it's a piece of trash.
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1435	Posted - 2014.04.23 21:24:00 - [94] - Quote Great post. I would add that heavy turn speed might be an additional nerfable stat that is reasonable and in keeping with them being big tough suits that can dish out the pain while having limited mobility. The counter to heavies should be out maneuvering them. Best PvE idea ever!
Scheneighnay McBob Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4901	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:36:00 - [95] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. You agree that the majority of the players are tactical dumbasses; right? Right? RIGHT? I'm from the weird side of the internet
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 817	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:41:00 - [96] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: ^ This is a man who realises that balancing problems in Dust are not solvable with just 10% increases or reductions. Hellz yeah, and it seems CCP paid attention this time! Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 311	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:56:00 - [97] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Look, just stop talking about heavies. The less you talk about it, the less likely they will be ruined by CCP. The game is almost well balanced. They have more constructive things to be doing like fixing the assault. The state of heavies is part of what is making the Assault suits useless. Why would I run an assault that basically just does a logi's job, but less than half assed? Why would I run one for mobile slaying when a scout does it better? Why would I run one for point defense when a sentinel does it better? Why would I run one for high-ground pressure/defense when a commando does it better? It's not heavies that make Assault's useless, it's the fact that an assault is good at absolutely goddamn nothing. Except amarr assaults, they are still fun to use with laser rifles in pubs. But that's all. Assaults need a unique toolset that makes them worth having. I personally recommend some form of vertical movement, grappling hooks or short-burst jetpacks that actually allow them to "Assault" an objective. Failing that, they need some sort of other gimmick. Every suit has a gimmick but the assault, and thats why it's a piece of trash. Don't look to blame other suits because the Assault is ass. That is the absolute worst attitude and just hurts every other playstyle in the game. No argument here. Personally, I'd like to see Assault's given the Commando damage bonus and the Minmatar Assault's racial clip size bonus...while the Commando keeps the reload bonus and then gets a +30-40% max ammo for racial weaponry bonus since they were originally meant to be suppressive fire specialists anyway. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
XxWarlordxX97 4270	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:18:00 - [98] - Quote I will teach you how not to get killed by heavies "Range" Close up the heavy should always will I'm a Elite heavy "I don't rage.I get even" Krieg is a beast
Rowdy Railgunner Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 404	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:22:00 - [99] - Quote Heavies are not a problem if you know how to attack them and them being powerful in point defense is what a heavy is for. Scouts are the best counter to a heavy.
Heimdallr69 Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 2193	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:25:00 - [100] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. kagehoshi says some really, really ****ing stupid stuff quite frequently. Yeah he hits it home sometimes, but he misses the pitch completely just as often. You're seriously going to attack one of the most reasonable people on this compost heap of a forum? He's the only one of us that's still sane Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro

XxWarlordxX97 BurgezzE.T.F 4270	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:39:00 - [101] - Quote And ask your what is a heavy, this thread sounds like nerf the heavy to where it is useless I'm a Elite heavy "I don't rage.I get even" Krieg is a beast
KING CHECKMATE Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 5194	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:42:00 - [102] - Quote GÖªI agree with all the main post, except the nerf to HMG. I think the HMG is in a good place right now. The damage is offset by the RANGE.You cannot pretend to NERF the damage of a weapon that cannot compete at longer ranges with rifles.(ecept AR that sucks) GÖª The damage profile to Projectile weapons should be -10% shields +10% armor. Like drones? = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153604&find=unread
Doctor Day THE SUPERHEROS 113	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:48:00 - [103] - Quote I WANT COMMADNOS TO SWITCH BONUSES WITH ASSAULTS ***** NOW CCP DO A HOTFIX ON IT I DONT LIKE LOOKING AT MY TEMPLAR ASSAULT LOOKING IIKE USELSS ** Obvious troll is Obvious
Vitharr Foebane Living Like Larry Schwag 1030	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:53:00 - [104] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Look, just stop talking about heavies. The less you talk about it, the less likely they will be ruined by CCP. The game is almost well balanced. They have more constructive things to be doing like fixing the assault. The state of heavies is part of what is making the Assault suits useless. I use ALL(Amarr) suits and never have I thought any one of them were useless. Wanna be sneaky and LR folks in the back? Go Scout. Does being able to shoot your LR or ScR forever appeal to you? Go Assault. Do you giggle at the prospect of melting with a LR without alot of preheating while having a powerful backup weapon if they get too close? Commando is the suit for you. Is eating other heavies and those annoying SG Scouts something that appeals to you? Sentinel is the obvious choice. With 1.8 there are no more one size fits all suit any more and honestly I like it that way. Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando III Logistics III I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Arcturis Vanguard Red Star. EoN. 88	Posted - 2014.04.24 00:07:00 - [105] - Quote I've been a heavy since chromosome. I have seen the suit in its ups and downs. Seen the hmg hit like a nerf gun to back to good killing potential. The OP has a reasonable approach to this discussion. What I would like to throw out is the idea of having HP modules add a percentage off base states verses a solid number increase. Speed penalties would stay the same. I believe this would keep light suits unable to tank into medium ehp territory and the same for mediums into heavy territory. Heavies would still be kings of ehp but wouldn't see enormously high, daunting behemoths. If this was implemented, ttk would likely go back up because of lower overall ehp which would mean a likelihood of another damage nerf across the board to all weapons. This wouldn't bother me as long as it was done in small increments to find the sweet spot. Otherwise I feel we are the closest we have been to true balance. We all know there are small issues here and there and all will be sorted in due time....maybe.
MythTanker The Phoenix Federation Caps and Mercs 102	Posted - 2014.04.24 01:19:00 - [106] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. but the CPM is too busy exploiting Dust The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his -George S. Patton
Heimdallr69 Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 2195	Posted - 2014.04.24 01:45:00 - [107] - Quote MythTanker wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. but the CPM is too busy exploiting Dust I didn't know the CPM used exploits.. Last I checked it's all fair game. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1025	Posted - 2014.04.24 01:51:00 - [108] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: STUFF . Everything in Kag's post is spot on! Came back to Dust from a break and what did I find? Cloakies with absolute invisibility which works in all situations.=(


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