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Heavies are a complex issue, don't balance recklessly

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10478	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:05:00 - [1] - Quote There is a perception that heavies are OP, and to me it feels true that they are too strong. Some have called for nerfs against heavy/sentines suitd, but I believe the issue is a complex one, and that heavies may quickly end up underpowered if they have their HP nerfed in addition to to fixing the multitude of other balance issues that need to be taken care of. Before any discusussion of HP nerfs, sevral issues have to be handled. The Issues: The assaults are underpowered. Right now scouts can tank nearly as much HP as assaults while being faster, having a 2nd equipment, having a bonus to cloaks, being great a detection and scan evasion; assaults pretty much suck by comparison. Medium frame slots are very messed up in my opinion, think this stuff needs to be fixed anyway, so might as well use the slot fixes it as a means to buff assaults and other mediums. Others have suggested things like regeneration to give assaults a niche, and also increasing base HP of mediums. Anyway, one of the reason heavies seem to be so unstoppable is that the main combat forces (assaults) are so bad right now, if assaults were buffed, heavies might seem less OP by comparison; I think assaults will get buffed anyway, so its safer to just wait for the assault buff rather than just nerf heavies now, nerfing heavies followed by an assault buff could leave heavies comparatively underpowered. Too much change at once is dangerous. The slow-down-when-hit effect on weapons. There is an effect that reduces your speed when you are hit by a weapon. No one wanted it, and no one likes it. It nullifies the mobility advantage of many suits, and it creates balance issues with many weapons; basically each round hitting slows down the target a bit, and high rate-of-fire weapons fire more rounds are fire more rounds at a given time interval, which makes the slow-down effect even higher. This gives the CR, aCR, HMG, and other high ROF weapons an extra (and unnecessary) advantage. This effect is the absoute worst with the HMG because of its extremely high rate of fire, this effect needs to be removed. Projectile damage profile (-5% to shields/+10% to armor). Every other damage profile has the damage bonus to one kind of HP (shields or armor), and the damage deficit against the other type of HP add up to 0; for example, laser damage profile is +20% to shields, and -20% to armor, adds up to 0. The projectile damage bonus has a net 5% gain, this creates a slight balance issue for the HMG (and combat rifle).The damage profile for projectiles need to be changed to something with a net 0 gain like everything else. The rifles and other weapons got nerfed in 1.8, but HMG was not nerfed. I think HMG's were at a good place in 1.7, but nerfing so many weapons while leaving the HMG alone gave the HMG an unnecessary comparative buff. The HMG might need a small 5-10% nerf after the removal of the slow-down effect, and the change to the projectile damage profile if heavies still appear to be overpowered after. Heavies i vehicles. One of the balancing factors that heavies have is their low speed, but getting an LAV or any other vehicle allows a heavy to completely overcome the lack of speed. A popular tactic employed by heavies is the use of LAVs to close the distance between enemies, instantly jumping out and killing enemies, and instantly jumping back in the LAV to escape whenever they start taking sigificant damage. This wasn't much of an issue for me personally before 1.8 because my packed AV grenades were enough to destroy a militia LAV and its occupants, but now they can't because maximum carried grenades for all grenade types have been reduced. There needs to be enter/exit animations to give those around time to damage or escape the entering/exiting heavy, or at least something like a hack sequence to enter or exit. This 0 risk high reward tactic needs to be handled. These things need to be out of the way first before nerfing the HP of heavies becomes an option. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12607	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:06:00 - [2] - Quote ^ This is a man who realises that balancing problems in Dust are not solvable with just 10% increases or reductions. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. EUrobro
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 2532	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:11:00 - [3] - Quote this is the kinda thread i don't even need to read i already know it's good If you run cloak and shotgun, you're a scrub Don't brick tank that scout, come on, get good. Proud member of RND
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2050	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:14:00 - [4] - Quote Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. Nerdier than thou
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7115	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:27:00 - [5] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. I actually though KAGEHOSHI was on the CPM when I first arrived on the forums. HAV > Infantry > AV < HAV [s]Text[/s] <------ That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2491	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:33:00 - [6] - Quote This all looks far too complicated. A 20% HP nerf takes like 10s of coding. I think we know which option CCP will choose.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 3775	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:34:00 - [7] - Quote Buff Assaults and remove webbing effect, before nerfing Heavies? This Heavy agrees. +1 I GÖú Kittens.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12612	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:34:00 - [8] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: This all looks far too complicated. A 20% HP nerf takes like 10s of coding. I think we know which option CCP will choose. That kind of quick 20% nerf is why we have problems like this. It's unfortunate. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. EUrobro
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8874	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:45:00 - [9] - Quote This cat approves Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1414	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:03:00 - [10] - Quote What!? Incremental, sensical change, followed by the gathering of data to see its effect!? Are you mad!? CCP is allergic to such, they prefer to monkey with a whole bunch of **** at once and in wildly different directions. Honestly I've given up on balance and I just want new maps, game modes, player market and in general some of the stuff they hyped. But I agree with the OP Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10492	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:39:00 - [11] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: What!? Incremental, sensical change, followed by the gathering of data to see its effect!? Are you mad!? CCP is allergic to such, they prefer to monkey with a whole bunch of ** at once and in wildly different directions. Honestly I've given up on balance and I just want new maps, game modes, player market and in general some of the stuff they hyped. But I agree with the OP Your comment made me smiile Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt** Gû¦Gû+
Medical Crash CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY 300	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:40:00 - [12] - Quote Scouts are a complex issue, please nerf recklessly
The Terminator T-1000 Skynet Incorporated 418	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:51:00 - [13] - Quote CCP will most likely over do it as usual by nerfing the heavy and buffing the assault. I am tired of this roller coaster!!!
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4009	Posted - 2014.04.22 23:59:00 - [14] - Quote Not everything was included into the game upon its release. Which lead to nerfs for weapons that should not have happened because they couldn't be compared to nonexistent weapons that were on the pipeline to be released. Now it seems we are in a nerf/buff twilight zone, never finding the right middle ground to agree upon. I like that heavies are scary again. Heavies were a joke in 1.7. Also, each particular dropsuit has had its shine in the game, I guess it's time again for the heavies. The LAV and Heavy issue shouldn't even be a issue. We are using the means that were given to us to bring an end to the opposition. Also its interesting to just blame CCP for some of this that we're in when the community has undoubetedly helped influenced the makings of 1.8. I read countless times about heavies not being lethal. But when they become lethal, now folks are saying CCP can't buy a bucket. Sometimes I do not understand this short term memory the community has. The system itself is interesting. Cry about issue. Make countless threads. CCP finally responds with a nerf/buff inbound. Community cheers. Community plays. Cries about the issue of the nerf/buff. Community begins blaming CCP, calling them incompetent, asking why they didn't test before releasing. Community obviously forgot that it's what they wanted. It's like we're in some weird ass twilight zone. 1.8 was of the community's doing mostly. Does the community know what they want? Will the community run this game into the ground? From the looks of it, its highly possible Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
IceShifter Childhaspawn DUST University Ivy League 544	Posted - 2014.04.23 00:03:00 - [15] - Quote Want to break the chains of 5 and 10 percent changes, how about 3% or 2% If the changes are smaller my favorite suit wont go from "good in buildings or narrow passages" to "sucks everywhere" overnight -again. At least gives us a chance to try something new before the suit is completely nerfed to worthlessness. EP 1.8: Revenge of the Scouts.
Scheneighnay McBob Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4898	Posted - 2014.04.23 00:23:00 - [16] - Quote The problem isn't in the suits per se, as much as it is in the play styles of the players. The majority of the community favors the "tactic" of running out in the open firing randomly; this "tactic" favors high eHP, which heavies have. Before we can do anything, we must first accept that heavies simply fit the dumbass play style that the majority of the community likes to employ and therefore will be most popular no matter what. We need to fit assaults to a different player mindset. I'm from the weird side of the internet
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9642	Posted - 2014.04.23 01:35:00 - [17] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: ^ This is a man who realises that balancing problems in Dust are not solvable with just 10% increases or reductions. Who doesn't realise that by now? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 620	Posted - 2014.04.23 01:59:00 - [18] - Quote My thread got mentioned. \o/ Medium frame EHP is not medium
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 271	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:01:00 - [19] - Quote Killed it. +9001 Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Delanus Turgias Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 416	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:08:00 - [20] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Great writeup on the various aspects of this issue, +1. The CPM needs to take this thread, and generally everything Kagehoshi has to say, and go beat CCP over the head with it word for word until it sticks. IWS, as the biggest forum warrior on the CPM, I'm looking at you. I would not trust IWS with delivering messages to CCP. He would probably only get half the idea across before switching the topic to why his idea for Dust 2.0 is totally the most well thought out and best thing ever and why we need racial parity for EVERYTHING, including shotguns and grenades too. /rant Closed Beta Vet since May, 2012 TEST Alliance Best Alliance Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust

VALCORE72 NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 156	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:11:00 - [21] - Quote problem we are haven is not that there op its that there waaaaaaay to easy to skill in too . scouts and heavys need there sp cap raised up to 5 to 8 mill sp to proto . assault and logies should be lot more common . and take out the dam militia suits waste of space .
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 622	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:35:00 - [22] - Quote VALCORE72 wrote: problem we are haven is not that there op its that there waaaaaaay to easy to skill in too . scouts and heavys need there sp cap raised up to 5 to 8 mill sp to proto . assault and logies should be lot more common . and take out the dam militia suits waste of space . Balancing around SP is a bad idea because the issues with the object(s) in question don't get addressed and it inflates the power gap between low and high SP players. Supposedly when Dust514 gets a real economy, mlt gear will be the only gear available for purchase from the NPC market. And while that doesn't sound too important, it will give us poor mercs shelter when the market becomes unfavorable. Mlt gear also serves to help new players figure out what they want to invest SP into. Medium frame EHP is not medium

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 784	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:50:00 - [23] - Quote This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1146	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:51:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10507	Posted - 2014.04.23 02:55:00 - [25] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I don't know about the Caldari heavy, but the Minmatar heavy is great right now. Don't try to use it as a brawler like you would a Gallente or Amarr heavy, take advantage of the speed; with a militia one you can fit an advanced HMG, over 1,000 HP, and run faster than an Amarr assault, all for less than 20K. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Charlotte O'Dell Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors Dropsuit Samurai 2430	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:01:00 - [26] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Trenix Keltron Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 176	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:07:00 - [27] - Quote The CalSen is just awesome and eats MinSens for breakfast. OUKH corporation recruitment active. Initiate enlistment protocols. The future is now
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2058	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:16:00 - [28] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I don't know about the Caldari heavy, but the Minmatar heavy is great right now. Don't try to use it as a brawler like you would a Gallente or Amarr heavy, take advantage of the speed; with a militia one you can fit an advanced HMG, over 1,000 HP, and run faster than an Amarr assault, all for less than 20K. Cal heavy is great. Armor heavies can be whittled down. If you want to kill a Cal heavy, you'd better do it all at once, or it's going to regen all its health without the need for a logi. A few complex energizers + a few complex extenders = epic win. People are just too used to the Amarr style of heavy. Nerdier than thou
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 460	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:19:00 - [29] - Quote Given my recent massively inflamed ire against HMG heavy (spam), I have to applaud this post. The author has proposed a very balanced approach for dealing with the current heavy situation. Personally I fail to understand how anyone right now can claim that heavies are completely fine when 50-80% of the opposing teams are consistently using them even in pubs, not to mention PC. Always the last person to leave. Always the one cleaning up people's messes.
castba Penguin's March 395	Posted - 2014.04.23 03:23:00 - [30] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This certainly is constructive and good feedback, and I assure you we are/were aware of the topics you mention. I personally like that my heavy is viable again, and I agree that my assault fit has diminished efficiency. Just fix the hmg and buff cal and min heavy I just saw Jacques Clayton II go 32/3 with a cal c1 and basic Hmg. Tell me again how craps the cal heavy is... or perhaps it is the input to the controller that is the issue. Also, the Hmg is in a good place right now. I am a heavy, but I am also a medic and a scout so I have experienced the Hmg from both sides.



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