Ok, then you have my apology.

I should have been more careful in my choice of words. But the resulting hate did add some true value to the discussion, so I am kind of pleased it went that way, although the name calling by one person was perhaps a touch abrasive.

It seems tankers feel threatened, quite rightly with the recent changes coming out with so little notice. my simple one line about hunting down his tank to kill him, to show he is not invulnerable; was taken to mean I was after his fitting. Why did people assume that? That question leads to some interesting answers.

It does show us that CCPs changes can unsettle sections of the community and make them feel attacked. They should be defended if the attacks against them are unfounded.

Which has faster regen? A repper-stacked armour tank, or a shield tank?
Which gets interrupted by damage?
Shields are meant to have the advantage in passive regen. Instead, armour can achieve a larger advantage in this area very easily.

Let's see.
Armor HAV has active repair modules? Nope.
Armor HAV has passive repair modules? Yes.
Armor HAV has built-in repairs? Nope.
Shield HAV has active repair modules? Yes.
Shield HAV has passive repair modules? Nope.
Shield HAV has built-in repairs? Yes.

So you are telling me that since Shield HAV has both built-in repairs and active repair modules and Armor HAV has only passive repair modules, Shield tanks should excell at passive repairs? Lol.

What armour tanks should (logically) be:
-High HP. (check)
-Slow but constant regen.
-Decent hardening.

What shield tanks should be:
-Lower HP. (check)
-Fast regen, but interruptible.
-Better hardening.

What we ACTUALLY have is a situation where the tank with better HP ALSO gets better self-repair options. The active module for shield regen doesn't work half the time, so that argument negates itself. Also, unlike shields, the passive regen on armour doesn't get interrupted by damage, making the higher regen rate even more of an advantage. Another possible solution would be to reverse the module situation, making armour rely entirely on active repair with no passive regen options, and having shield modules to buff passive regen without any active shield recovery option. This would also serve to make a high regen rate on armour viable, purely because it comes with those waves of opportunity CCP wanted so badly.

Which has faster regen? A repper-stacked armour tank, or a shield tank?
Which gets interrupted by damage?

They're not easier to counter than shield tanks.
.

I actually meant I was going to try kill his tanks with my swarms or ADS.

I didn't say anything about advocating for their removal or changing them. They are on my list of things to keep an eye on though. They may come out as fair and balanced. They may not. The OP said himself it took 4 tanks to get him down. I have seen it myself.

The way they are working on the battlefield, particularity when combined with a speed module, is worth investigation. I'm taking a look. A close look to make sure they do not get nerfed unfairly if at all. If they come out as fair I will certainly defend them. If not, I won't.

It is worth noting that any suggested change to vehicles that bring Taka or Speaker out from under their bridge does kind of make the case that there may be something worth looking into.

Let's see.
Armor HAV has active repair modules? Nope.
Armor HAV has passive repair modules? Yes.
Armor HAV has built-in repairs? Nope.
Shield HAV has active repair modules? Yes.
Shield HAV has passive repair modules? Nope.
Shield HAV has built-in repairs? Yes.

So you are telling me that since Shield HAV has both built-in repairs and active repair modules and Armor HAV has only passive repair modules, Shield tanks should excell at passive repairs? Lol.

[quote=Garrett Blacknova][quote=MarasdF Loron]
I'm tired of arguing about the same stuff over and over again, just gimme back my 1.6 AV and Vehicles. Like naow. CCP, right, fcking, naow!

Like I said the other day, shield tanks are pretty much where they should be. Armour tanks with reppers are OP, because armour reppers needed a nerf MORE than hardeners did, and never got one.

[quote=MarasdF Loron][quote=Garrett Blacknova][quote=MarasdF Loron][quote=Judge Rhadamanthus]
there just no way around it !
making tanking to simple in game has by far been the biggest thing Holding this game back !


this way drop ships tanks lav,s dont have to run only 1 or 2 fits because that's all that works
if you open up more ways to tank you end up with more fits and happier players not just tankers and drop ships but AV to
the new players not crying over the games to hard to tank its that the only way to tank or fit and do anything is 6 months away in SP !

Dude, it's pretty clear that your only agenda with everything you say is to make your derpship invincible and more effective at killing things.

Your derpship = medium flying vehicle.

HAV = HEAVY ground vehicle.

You shouldn't be able to kill a vehicle in an entirely different weightclass. Especially not since you can fly directly above it and it has no ******* chance of shooting back at you. Meaning: you can engage a target that can't engage you back.

Remember how you used to complain about redline railtanks, huh hypocrite?

This ^^^^ ... couldn't agree with these statements anymore than to have said them myself but you beat me to it FURRY .

Agreed .

So basically i was right

I'm still OP. ADS is fine though.

It won't work. You can't balance on ISK. All you would do is create an elite few that could stomp with impunity.
The PC ISK farmers could still spam as many as they wanted.

As long as vehicles share the same role (infantry slaughter) as infantry, they have to be balanced 1v1 with a dropsuit. CCP is almost there now, and has but to kill stacked reppers to complete the job. Then they can reduce the price to equal the dropsuit and we will have true AV/V tiericide.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tanking

and
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Damage_types#Damage_Types

IF we just do this new players even ones as old as 1 week can skill in to the base stuff and fit a tank or a drop ship that can tank 1 or 2 kinds of dmg but will be weak vsing the other 2 and they dont need pro mods to be good but they wont be as good as pro lv but could at lest DO stuff in game in game !

this means there all ways a way for someone to counter you and all ways other fits then just go shield with 3 hardeners or go armor with speed mod and reps what ever it is Must be all Pro mods !

So what your saying is that they should have nerf'd the repairers ???

You people will never learn and when your vehicles are useless you will want a refund but your leading the charge to kill your own role . You vehicle users need to stop talking so much because there are enough in the community who would love to make what we do useless and you just give them fuel for their fire .

STOP TALKING ABOUT YOUR FITS !!!!!

They should have increased the stacking penalty for stacking damage mods and nothing else . That's all that needed to be changed . The hardener nerf was alright but that doesn't stop stacking damage mods and if anything increases that fact . Nerfing the rail gun was needed , 600 m is just too much coverage for any weapon .

Increase penalty for stacking damage mods and decrease the stacked damage increase .

How are these new changes working out for you?

Something I've noticed with my gunnlogi, is that with double hardeners up, swarms do a hefty amount of damage now. To me it seems that "waves of opportunity" philosophy was thrown out when you consider them now.

But, when you consider what is essentially the weakest AV weapon in game (being the easiest to obtain) doing such heavy damage, what of the other forms? There is no opportunity with them, as you are ALWAYS at risk when you come face to face with any AV, tank, ect. Also note, swarms are inherently ineffective against shields, or should be at least.

And rail guns are beastly against gunnlogis. There is no such thing as defense against a rail. With a single damage mod active and a pro turret, most all shield tanks go down in 2 to 4 shots. That's against tanks running a hardener. I know, pretty much the same as before, but now I feel there isn't much to tank engagements. TTK is shorter than ever when a shield tank is considered. Or anything running a shield.

Nothings changed, tank on tank is still unbalanced. Tank vs AV has tipped in favor of infantry (slightly). MLT tanks are still over the top when compared with a SP invested tanker. It's a bandaid on a gushing wound.

While AV may be happy with the changes and call them balanced, I see nothing of the sort. Why? Well let's consider my new maddie build.

Standard blaster turret - 2x complex reps - 1x enhanced rep

492 HP/s on my armor regen. (Rep skill at level 4)

This thing is a BEAST against AV. Unless you are running a proto forge or a railgun for that matter, just give up and go home already. Or remotes, that's usually what I lose this to. And it's VERY cheap. No doubt though you will need some points in optimization (maybe) to run it like this. Even if you run basics, that's 300HP/s. Keep yr back to cover and nothing will kill you!

I was in a match with some tankers from a previous match (Caused their tanks some serious grief, so they wanted me on their side:) ) running this very build. Was under one of those buildings, the ones on the bridge map, and had 2 tanks directly in front of me. One a gunnlogi and the other a soma. Both running blaster. Gunnlogi throws up hardeners, but those were kinda pointless as I was still doing some serious damage. It drops, and another pulls up to take its place.

I think ok, and proceed to work on him, but notice I'm taking far heavier damage than I should against a blaster. I was still reppin it out, but I knew that trend wouldn't last long. It's a rail tank directly behind me (sica w/ MLT rail) poundin away! So, had it not been for that rail tank, hitting me in my weak spot, all dem scrubs would have died.

It took the efforts of 4 tanks to drop me!

I agree with the stacking damage mods penalty, honestly I don't understand why they don't go the EVE route and just had extra PG and CPU requirements of weapons with every mod.

The 600m I agree with as well. A Thale, the most powerful sniper rifle in the game, a salvage only officer class weapon can't even push that far, and while i know its a tank turret vs. a handheld sniper rifle its just too much. What I don't agree with though is why a 50% reduction? Couldn't they have just made it so that it's not 100% accurate? Why is it that there isn't a drop-off? Why isn't there a spread to the shots? Why do that rails fire exactly where they're pointed?

they're actually is bullet arc its slight but its there

Due to the damage mod and proficiency nerfs, armor repper tanks are actually a good bit more effective than before.

How are these new changes working out for you?

Something I've noticed with my gunnlogi, is that with double hardeners up, swarms do a hefty amount of damage now. To me it seems that "waves of opportunity" philosophy was thrown out when you consider them now.

But, when you consider what is essentially the weakest AV weapon in game (being the easiest to obtain) doing such heavy damage, what of the other forms? There is no opportunity with them, as you are ALWAYS at risk when you come face to face with any AV, tank, ect. Also note, swarms are inherently ineffective against shields, or should be at least.

And rail guns are beastly against gunnlogis. There is no such thing as defense against a rail. With a single damage mod active and a pro turret, most all shield tanks go down in 2 to 4 shots. That's against tanks running a hardener. I know, pretty much the same as before, but now I feel there isn't much to tank engagements. TTK is shorter than ever when a shield tank is considered. Or anything running a shield.

Nothings changed, tank on tank is still unbalanced. Tank vs AV has tipped in favor of infantry (slightly). MLT tanks are still over the top when compared with a SP invested tanker. It's a bandaid on a gushing wound.

While AV may be happy with the changes and call them balanced, I see nothing of the sort. Why? Well let's consider my new maddie build.

Standard blaster turret - 2x complex reps - 1x enhanced rep

492 HP/s on my armor regen. (Rep skill at level 4)

This thing is a BEAST against AV. Unless you are running a proto forge or a railgun for that matter, just give up and go home already. Or remotes, that's usually what I lose this to. And it's VERY cheap. No doubt though you will need some points in optimization (maybe) to run it like this. Even if you run basics, that's 300HP/s. Keep yr back to cover and nothing will kill you!

I was in a match with some tankers from a previous match (Caused their tanks some serious grief, so they wanted me on their side:) ) running this very build. Was under one of those buildings, the ones on the bridge map, and had 2 tanks directly in front of me. One a gunnlogi and the other a soma. Both running blaster. Gunnlogi throws up hardeners, but those were kinda pointless as I was still doing some serious damage. It drops, and another pulls up to take its place.

I think ok, and proceed to work on him, but notice I'm taking far heavier damage than I should against a blaster. I was still reppin it out, but I knew that trend wouldn't last long. It's a rail tank directly behind me (sica w/ MLT rail) poundin away! So, had it not been for that rail tank, hitting me in my weak spot, all dem scrubs would have died.

It took the efforts of 4 tanks to drop me!